Halle/Queens and Pre-Wimbledon Thread

[Guest]

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If you have Sky you are in for a treat like me!

[kingraf]

On the bright side, if Nadal leaves the UK now, and only returns just before Wimbledon, this exit would have done his tax bill a world of good

[Belovedluckyboy]

Sad for Rafa, should be the one winning yet he manages to lose it! Same old story this year again!

[lags72]

There was me wondering whether Dolgo would crack. In the event it was the vastly-experienced Rafa who capitulated when well in the ascendancy with his man there for the taking.

[summerblues]

the umpire affecting the outcome of that game the way he did.

[summerblues]

Rafa did look the better player for most of set 2 and 3, but even then he was still making way more errors than usual. It is just that Dolgo was unable to capitalize. Dolgo tightened his game up the last few games and that was enough to take Rafa out today.

[lags72]

Well that's a shame. The crowd clearly didn't like the umpire affecting the outcome of that game the way he did.

You are funny temp.

By 'crowd', I suspect you might mean 'I'

Wouldn't touch those grapes if I were you .....

[summerblues]

All in all, this has still been very much Rafa of 2015. Making way more errors than usual, nowhere near as solid as he used to be. Even last week, even though he won the title, there were plenty of unforced errors from him on the types of points he used to play with his eyes closed.

He just needs to bear down and see if he can get back to the type of form people have been used to seeing from him for years. But he is getting older, so maybe it will be hard.

[Belovedluckyboy]

The problem with Rafa these days, the lapses in concentration during matches, this is not the first time this season that he loses a match that he should win! What a shame, plays so well but one slip and he loses! He's clearly the better player in set two and three!

I really don't like the way he loses this match, now I really doubt Rafa could get back to his previous good level! He's having the winning momentum from last week, plays well and is the better player yet he loses and in R1! Not very optimistic for Wimbledon.

He has really slowed down a lot in his movements, half the time late for his shots, don't know how he's going to win going forward when his speed is gone.

[summerblues]

What a shame, plays so well but one slip and he loses!

He played well for most of sets 2 and 3, but even then he did not play as well as one would normally expect him to. For example, in the TB Rafa made two very cheap errors of the sort he used to never make. He still won the TB, but only because Dolgo returned the favor a few points later.

[Matchpoint]

the umpire affecting the outcome of that game the way he did.

SB, what happened? What did the umpire do?

[lags72]

summerblues & blb : good summaries, but personally I think Rafa showed enough today - in the better patches - that he can still get back to something approaching his best. He did play extremely well for a lot of the match, that should not be dismissed. Crucially, he could not close it out - and that was of course always his number one strength.

But time & age do without doubt take as much of a mental toll as physical, and I can't say I'm as confident of a renaissance as I would have been, say, three years ago.

[LuvSports!]

Time violation at break point down in the 3rd set. Rafa was at 4/4 but 30/40 i think.

[banbrotam]

Meanwhile Murray thinks he's in Miami, so it's only 1200hrs and hence makes his usual terrible early morning starts!!

Time-clock looks like it's been readjusted

[Johnyjeep]

This Rafa should have won talk is misleading. Not sure on what basis he should have won.

Not on what was evident today. Yes he played well in parts. But it was very small doses. He won one tightly contested second set (where he faced a match point). But he lost the other two 3 and 4. If anything he should have lost in straight sets.

He is still miles from his best on what I saw today. His service arm is getting lower and lower..which is understandable. But he was missing forehands and routine rally shots.

The point I'm trying to make is, I don't think he played well today. He didn't deserve to win on today's showing. If folk are convinced he did, could make for a painful Wimbledon.

He'll need to improve a lot to reach the business end of Wimbledon. Not saying he can't mind.

[Matchpoint]

 LS. Oh, same-old, same-old, I thought something else. Didn't expect him to go out so soon, but not such a bad loss, consider the extra rest he now has to prepare for The Big One.

[banbrotam]

summerblues & blb : good summaries, but personally I think Rafa showed enough today - in the better patches - that he can still get back to something approaching his best. He did play extremely well for a lot of the match, that should not be dismissed. Crucially, he could not close it out - and that was of course always his number one strength.

But time & age do without doubt take as much of a mental toll as physical, and I can't say I'm as confident of a renaissance as I would have been, say, three years ago.

I don't share your optimism. We can appreciate that Rafa is perhaps now going to get blasted off court by either a hard hitter or one of his peers out hitting him

But this was Dolgo, the type of player he loves. Goodness knows what he'd have been like facing some of big servers / hitters

It is all very sad. I personally want matches between the fab five (I'm including Stan, because they are always good matches) as they all enter their latter years. But I just can't see Rafa getting to the last 16 at either of the next two slams - unless he has a very favourable draw

And I just don't know how he improves

[banbrotam]

He'll need to improve a lot to reach the business end of Wimbledon. Not saying he can't mind.

Nothing's impossible, but you have to be a supreme optimist. He's simply not going to get the time to wind up his forehand that almost is getting to the stage where he's going to get a time violation for that

A cold but dry blustery Wimby is what he needs, to have any chance

[Johnyjeep]

summerblues & blb : good summaries, but personally I think Rafa showed enough today - in the better patches - that he can still get back to something approaching his best. He did play extremely well for a lot of the match, that should not be dismissed. Crucially, he could not close it out - and that was of course always his number one strength.

But time & age do without doubt take as much of a mental toll as physical, and I can't say I'm as confident of a renaissance as I would have been, say, three years ago.

I don't share your optimism. We can appreciate that Rafa is perhaps now going to get blasted off court by either a hard hitter or one of his peers out hitting him

But this was Dolgo, the type of player he loves. Goodness knows what he'd have been like facing some of big servers / hitters

It is all very sad. I personally want matches between the fab five (I'm including Stan, because they are always good matches) as they all enter their latter years. But I just can't see Rafa getting to the last 16 at either of the next two slams - unless he has a very favourable draw

And I just don't know how he improves

Dolgo was patting back (ok slicing) second serves to rally with Rafa. That's what makes it a little alarming. Oddly, the best part of Rafa's game today was his volleying. Made some sensational volleys.

[lags72]

Ok, far from ideal, I agree. But equally, not a disastrous loss against a guy with a fair deal of talent and creativity - and a very strong serve to boot. Yes, Rafa surely would have welcomed some additional match practice ( and also to have avenged his defeat by Dolgo last year)

That said, I think the Queens / Wimbledon barometer has pretty much seen it all over the years : Queens champions going on to win at W ; Queens champs exiting very early at W ; and early losers at Queens going on to sparkle at W.

Rafa obviously wont be favourite for the big one, but he will still be a threat and IMO nobody will be relaxed about seeing their name against his on the drawsheet.

[bogbrush]

Well that's a shame. The crowd clearly didn't like the umpire affecting the outcome of that game the way he did.

Oh please!

It's in Nadals hands to play within the rules. It's his problem; not the Umpire, not the crowd, not even Uncle Toni. It's up to Rafa Nadal to finally play to the rules of the sport.

Then there'll be no time violations.

[temporary21]

Not interested... I noted that the crowd didnt appear to like it

[lags72]

Not interested... I noted that the crowd didnt appear to like it

Hmm.

On the one hand you say "not interested" ; on the other you were interested enough to say "that's a shame".

Perhaps you meant it's a shame that Rafa doesn't play within the rules of the sport.

[temporary21]

I havent the time right now to play with either of you...


Its a shame his intensity dropped like that, the easy misses at 4-4 are what cost him the match.

[Belovedluckyboy]

Rafa should have won after winning the TB and then was a break up! He was the better player in set two and three because he was slowly but steadily getting into Dolgo's service games and Dolgo had to work hard to hold his serves with the exception of very few service games. Rafa was holding serves easily compared to Dolgo until the last few games.

Rafa is serving very well today; it's his FH and BH that sometimes failed him in important moments; his speed and movements weren't ideal too this match. Rafa is a good volleyer so it's not surprising he's using his volleying to win points, because he knows he's not quick enough to get to Dolgo's shots so has to take the initiative to use his volleys to win some points.

[Belovedluckyboy]

I'm writing off Wimbledon where Rafa is concerned; he's no longer quick on grass and a big hitter will blow him off the court.

He should be better on the HCs as he still has time to get to shots as bounces on the HCs are still higher than on grass so will give him more time.

[Mad for Chelsea]

workmanlike win for Murray. Slow start, perhaps understandable for his first match on grass after a great claycourt season, but improved steadily as the match went on, his serve was clicking nicely by the end, and his groundstrokes had some nice weight on them too. Not his best, but did enough, against an opponent playing pretty well...

Post-match interview: Murray asked for his opinion on the Nadal match, and impresses the commentators so much that they say "good analysis from Murray, we should get him up here!" Um, I suspect Murray's capacity to analyse a tennis match is vastly superior to theirs...

[lags72]

I'm writing off Wimbledon where Rafa is concerned; he's no longer quick on grass and a big hitter will blow him off the court.  

He should be better on the HCs as he still has time to get to shots as bounces on the HCs are still higher than on grass so will give him more time.

Well, let's see if he can get can get back to winning ways on the biggest of stages, if not in London (personally I still don't write him off for Wimbledon), then in New York. At least this year he is not fatigued from a draining clay swing.

Otherwise he will end the season without a Slam, for the first time since 2004.

[Johnyjeep]

No doubt Rafa was better in sets 2 and 3. But doesn't mean he was the better player and should have won. Yes he went a break up. But that's not the name of the game. He also lost 4 games on the spin!!!

If Rafa served well today kind of disproves his comments about just needing a good serve to win on grass as well!! (tongue firmly stuck in cheek )

He lost today. No dramas. But Dolgo won it by being better.

Edit: yes he's always been able to volley. My point was it's just hidden behind other aspects of his game which are /were better. Rarely is his volleying the best part of his game. Doesn't mean he can't volley.

[lags72]

Was just thinking how much attention, analysis and column inches are devoted to the pre-Wimbledon tournies nowadays.

It all adds to the interest, no doubt. But equally interesting is the fact ( AFAIK ....?) that a certain B.Borg - he with the five successive Wimbledon trophies bearing his name - didn't play a single competitive 'warm-up' match on grass throughout his career.

[Belovedluckyboy]

Johnyjeep, he was the better player and was up a break in the final set and was serving very well to hold serve until the last two service games, so he shouldve won but blew it!

Well his volleying is the best part of his game now, ironically! Better than his ROS, his FH and BH which are prone to misfiring!

[Johnyjeep]

So other than that then (his misfiring ground strokes - which they were I agree), he played well. Luckily his game is not based around his ground strokes. And with his opponent winning 18 games, compared to his 14. Still, defo better player on the day. Think Dolgo can consider himself unlucky. Lord knows how quickly he would have won, and by what margin if he'd have been the better player.

[Belovedluckyboy]

This is sports isn't it, one can play better overall but still lost because of a few points.

A player like Dolgo would hit many winners with that serve of his but would also make more errors. Rafa was nervous and lost his serve in his last two service games, when he was serving well the whole match, such was Rafa's problem these days.

[CaledonianCraig]

I'm writing off Wimbledon where Rafa is concerned; he's no longer quick on grass and a big hitter will blow him off the court.  

He should be better on the HCs as he still has time to get to shots as bounces on the HCs are still higher than on grass so will give him more time.

In all fairness this 'writing off' is getting tiresome. I seem to recall yourself confident Rafa would come good after a poor clay court season going into RG. After his exit there you said he'd come good for the grass court and hard court season but now after his early Queen's exit you are now writing off the grass court season and saying everything will be alright on the hard courts.

Now I am not having a pop though it may very much look like it but at present I'd say its best to leave off any bold predictions or confidence regarding Rafa until we see him beating one of the very best players in the world - by that I mean Novak, Andy, Roger or Stan. Until then (for me) he will remain struggling to recapture former glories and not back to any semblance of great form. That really is the key for him.

[bogbrush]

I havent the time right now to play with either of you...


Its a shame his intensity dropped like that, the easy misses at 4-4 are what cost him the match.

When you wrote "Well that's a shame. The crowd clearly didn't like the umpire affecting the outcome of that game the way he did." you invited comment. Nobodies playing games, you wrote the post and I simply replied to get the logic straightened out.

[Born Slippy]

I didn't get any impression the crowd had any concern about the TV. I suspect the knowledgeable fans just thought Rafa's being slow again and the less knowledgeable probably missed it entirely.

It also clearly had no impact on Rafa. He didn't even flinch when it was given and won the point. He then made no attempt to speed up thereafter (presumably on the basis that he knew it was highly unlikely the umpire would actually take away a 1st serve). The longest point I timed was when he faced the matchpoint in his next service game when he went well over 30 seconds.

[Guest82]

I'm writing off Wimbledon where Rafa is concerned; he's no longer quick on grass and a big hitter will blow him off the court.  

He should be better on the HCs as he still has time to get to shots as bounces on the HCs are still higher than on grass so will give him more time.

In all fairness this 'writing off' is getting tiresome. I seem to recall yourself confident Rafa would come good after a poor clay court season going into RG. After his exit there you said he'd come good for the grass court and hard court season but now after his early Queen's exit you are now writing off the grass court season and saying everything will be alright on the hard courts.

Now I am not having a pop though it may very much look like it but at present I'd say its best to leave off any bold predictions or confidence regarding Rafa until we see him beating one of the very best players in the world - by that I mean Novak, Andy, Roger or Stan. Until then (for me) he will remain struggling to recapture former glories and not back to any semblance of great form. That really is the key for him.

He could probably really do with playing Fed right now. I still think he would beat him too. Sadly he's not playing well enough to get through to the required round to meet him at the moment...

[Haddie-nuff]

@CC
I'd say its best to leave off any bold predictions or confidence regarding Rafa until we see him beating one of the very best players in the world - by that I mean Novak, Andy, Roger or Stan. Until then (for me) he will remain struggling to recapture former glories and not back to any semblance of great form. That really is the key for him.

+1

I entirely agree. Sad but true. I took some heart in his tournament win  last week but I was  not convinced it was a good yard stick .  The opposition was not good enough to measure where Rafa is with his game. I never saw the actual match against Dolgo yesterday only highlights. Dolgo played well no question but not well enough to beat the Rafa we know. Rafa's game was riddled with unforced errors, slow movement, lack of focus. Frankly, as painful as it is for me to say, he is most certainly struggling, He is battle weary in my opinion and is this one too many ?

[lags72]

..............................................

He could probably really do with playing Fed right now.  I still think he would beat him too.  Sadly he's not playing well enough to get through to the required round to meet him at the moment...

Yes, I too reckon he would most likely beat Federer. But I'm not sure what, if indeed anything, that would tell us. He could beat Fed regularly when Fed was in his prime, and the current drop-off in Rafa's form would now be balanced out by the inevitable decline in movement & speed of someone just a few weeks short of 34.

I haven't forgotten that Federer still sits at number two in the world, but I doubt he will be there for very much longer. Surely the real test for Rafa 'going forward' is how he matches up to those big names he will be meeting for (hopefully) a few years to come, the guys still challenging for the Slams, ie Djokovic, Murray, and a high-on-confidence Stan ; and then, the newer generation pushing through.

[Belovedluckyboy]

CC, better doesnt mean he'll win big! It just means he's doing better than in his previous tournaments, clay then grass then HCs. He didnt win anything during the main clay season but managed to win a 250 event on grass. He may not win Wimbledon or USO or the HC masters, but he may win a 500 on HC? Who knows?

[CaledonianCraig]

CC, better doesnt mean he'll win big!  It just means he's doing better than in his previous tournaments, clay then grass then HCs.  He didnt win anything during the main clay season but managed to win a 250 event on grass. He may not win Wimbledon or USO or the HC masters, but he may win a 500 on HC? Who knows?

But that is no crumb of comfort for Rafa. He has always aimed big and I am sure he always will. Anything less than winning the biggest tournaments I am sure he will see as failure.

[Haddie-nuff]

BLB
Seriously ???? is that what you have come to hope or expect of RAFA NADAL?? a 14 GS champion  

Do you honestly believe that is all he hopes to achieve..
If so, I would say from a fan's perspective. GO home now RAFA

[Belovedluckyboy]

Haddie, can you show me where did I say I believe that's all Rafa hope to achieve??

I really dont like the way you question me, am I supposed to answer for Rafa??

Aren't you the one who practically write off Rafa? Now that he is making progress little by little, instead of losing in the R2 on clay at Barcelona, you think that's not at least something good? So you prefer to see him losing in a grass 250 event and so you can carry on writing negative comments about him?

Whether he can get back to his best level or not only time will tell, so stop telling me what to expect and what not to expect, or how Rafa feels.

[Belovedluckyboy]

CC, why are you people making the same mistake? Why are you people keep saying what Rafa should expect to achieve? Rafa knows what he wants to achieve but first he has to think of how to get there to achieve (what he wants). He has to start somewhere, if he cant win on his favorite surface then he has to work harder to win on other surfaces. A win is a good start, or do we expect him to start winning at Wimbledon right away?? I think Rafa is more realistic than all of us here.

[temporary21]

I still haven't the time for all this nonsense anymore.just wrote what I saw    People are thinking too short termism.  When you're inconsistent you're just looking to win what you can to slowly improve back to where you were.  The dogs a nasty first round. By the by there are other players playing right now. Stan looked very good yesterday

[Haddie-nuff]

BLB
What are you on about...WHO has told you what to believe

I questioned the content of your post and I would strongly suggest you read it again, because CC has put the same interpretation on it as I did.
quote

He may not win Wimbledon or USO or the HC masters, but he may win a 500 on HC? Who knows?

HOW would you suggest we interpret that comment
.

[Belovedluckyboy]

Rafa says that he hopes to finish the 2015 season being fit and healthy with no more injuries and hopes to start 2016 well. He also says that his main aim is to reach the WTF; on whether he's aiming at winning a slam this season, of course he says he's working hard at it. My guess is if he couldnt win one this year, its not unexpected, but I trust that he'll continue to work hard and tries to win one next year. He's taking it step by step.

[Belovedluckyboy]

Haddie, my comment was a reply to CC's previous post. He questioned my previous comment about Rafa's progress so I gave him my take. From not winning anything on clay to winning small event on grass to winning a 500 event on HC is small progress of course, but seriously you think he can win Wimbledon or USO so soon? At this stage, winning a Masters is already an achievement!

Rafa himself is realistic; of course he's working hard to win a slam if possible, but I guess deep down he knows winning a slam may not be achievable this year, winning a Masters may be more realistic.

[JuliusHMarx]

I still haven't the time for all this nonsense anymore.just wrote what I saw    People are thinking too short termism.  When you're inconsistent you're just looking to win what you can to slowly improve back to where you were.  The dogs a nasty first round. By the by there are other players playing right now. Stan looked very good yesterday

Wawrinka is playing this guy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XooISvoZ_rs

[Haddie-nuff]

Haddie, my comment was a reply to CC's previous post.  He questioned my previous comment about Rafa's progress so I gave him my take. From not winning anything on clay to winning small event on grass to winning a 500 event on HC is small progress of course, but seriously you think he can win Wimbledon or USO so soon? At this stage, winning a Masters is already an achievement!  

Rafa himself is realistic; of course he's working hard to win a slam if possible, but I guess deep down he knows winning a slam may not be achievable this year,  winning a Masters may be more realistic.

No what I am suggesting BLB is you are somewhat more hopeful than me If you are talking short term here it is more plausible but frankly I don't think Rafa will be satisfied with that.. again I quote him from about a year ago.
He said when he thinks he cannot win matches/tournaments then he fully expects to retire.
I am not as hopeful as you, I see something missing in Rafa when he goes on court.
He has fought back before, we know, but this time it is different. And Lydian came back to the forum just briefly recently and he says the same... This time I think its one fight back too many and I think it would be unfair to expect him to achieve it. Ive had a reality check and I would like to think Im wrong. But he cannot keep taking these losses and expect to boost his confidence ... I don't know where he is going to find the wherewithal to change his entire game ,which to me is the only way he can move forward. He hasn't got the answers to the questions that are being asked of him

[CaledonianCraig]

CC, why are you people making the same mistake?  Why are you people keep saying what Rafa should expect to achieve?  Rafa knows what he wants to achieve but first he has to think of how to get there to achieve (what he wants).   He has to start somewhere, if he cant win on his favorite surface then he has to work harder to win on other surfaces.  A win is a good start, or do we expect him to start winning at Wimbledon right away??  I think Rafa is more realistic than all of us here.  

Step back a moment and think BLB.

Now we all know Rafa has had injuries before and bounced back - that is not open for debate. This time though it is taking him a heck of a lot longer and this was an operation to have his appendix removed so shouldn't be waiting so long for big success unless there is something deeper and underlying mental (or physical problem).

Do you think Rafa is (right at this moment) punching the air with delight at winning a 250 last week or really annoyed that he lost a match against Dolgo that the old Rafa would have won at Queen's? I guarantee you he is not interested in the crumbs when he has a career resume compiled behind him. He's striving for Masters titles and the ultimate - slam wins and anything else between now and the end of his career will quite frankly be immaterial.

As I said earlier BLB you have been on here pre-RG saying after a poor clay court season that everything would come right at RG - it didn't. You then posted everything will be alright for the grass and hard court seasons. Now after a First Round defeat at Queens you are writing off the grass court season and coming out with the line everything will be alright for the hard court season. I admire your ultimate optimism or blind loyalty but all this writing off you are doing shows an underlying great doubt within I'd say. Everyone can see Rafa has problems in confidence, self-belief and others say it is lacking physicality now to take up court positions to roll out his big shots and if that is the case then I cannot see how he can reverse this trend.

Haddie sees the very worrying signs as do mostly everyone else - it cannot be denied and like I said the only way he can start to turn things around is getting back the winning habit against the very best players at the moment.

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