Yes yes yes, world cup and all that but what is it that will propel rugby beyond its niche global status? Discus'sting!

Here we all are bathing in our pre tournament blather, anxious, excited,  and yes some of us even quite a bit more than a little dejected by the lost opportunity that presents before us, but we won't let that divert us(no precious we won't....ed). And yet what is the question, what is the present future, what is the taste on the wind that speaks portentously of progress - what is it that is going to propel this majestic code of rugby forth - beyond its niche status in the global sports market place?

Will it be our Rugby Union World Cup, undoubtedly the most successful rugby tournament ever to have existed? I fear not......

Will it be the antithesis of love, or as some describe it the franglaise relationship of the english premiership and the top 14....non mon’amie, for they are but mono excessives feeling and feeding only themselves, until they can no more. This is not the path we desire........

Indeed then what if the rugby codes reform 130 years poste haste. Merger most high, talent unbound, grotesque media mogulia australis......this will not do we must transcend the post empire commonwealth etc. etc.

So it is the Lions then? The Lions, all british and irish, irish and british, celtic and anglo and everything between and beyond yesteryear and before, a marketing man's forget-me-not of cheap gin and guinness, a drug we've all consumed far too much of so now our addiction is complete...NO NOT THE LIONS FOR THE LIONS ARE BEYOND THE PALE! DEATH TO THE LIONS!

Then what is the answer, tell me, I need to know?

The answer my friend is blowing in the wind.........it is the Olympic rugby sevens; yes I know how mad is that? Yes the Olympics have accepted the shortened rugby code of 7 versus 7 and it is this code that will change the game. It is this event alone that will deliver rugby its chosen place amongst the sports world elite (a place so cruelly stolen by that association football) and so as Greece falls rugby will rise amount Olympus.

It would be a pity if 7s emerged as the biggest form of rugby. Does 7s really create a pathway to the 15 a side game?

Proper Rugby will never be anything more than a niche sport.

TG wrote:It would be a pity if 7s emerged as the biggest form of rugby. Does 7s really create a pathway to the 15 a side game?

I'm unsure if Olympic 7's will become the biggest form of rugby, but there is no doubt that having the abbreviated game in the Olympics puts our code in the biggest sporting shop window bar none. This could mean that for the first time ever 100 million americans WHO HAVE NEVER WATCHED A GAME OF RUGBY, or a 100 million or more chinese or 50 million brazilians....consume rugby for the very first time.

I actually believe that 7's is a cuckoo in the Olympic nest(much like soccer and tennis), however the irb, that was, played a corking hand and delivered us this generational game changing opportunity.

Pathway? Put it like this, where once the game was isolated beyond a chasm, now there is a rope bridge. Lets cheer them on and welcome everyone who crosses.

Not sure it will be the 7s which draws people in as it really is very different obviously to the 15 man version. Looking purely at the English market I don't think a few more games like the France 6Ns can hurt. The big thing to build interest is prolonged dominance at the top and real superstar players whose exposure hits the mainstream media.

We touched upon this in 2003 with the WC and Wilkinson and we're now seeing the result with the amount of talented kids coming through (along with the increased importance placed on them granted). Problem was that once the golden generation retired or picked up injuries we fell back. If we manage to transistion a great bunch of younger players through to the senior team, play with imagination and flair and consistently win rugby will grow.

LondonTiger wrote:Proper Rugby will never be anything more than a niche sport.

Maybe, but now there are real opportunites to spread the game beyond the empire of yore.

IF the US can be developed and if the Olympics position is successfully delivered and maintained, then the 'niche' will be widened by a factor far in advance of our parochial establishment.....with their vile self interest - big fish small pond and yet there's a ocean out there.

If the Olympics is successful we will see a huge growth in participation and coverage of 7s. Struggle to see that translating to 15s though.

LondonTiger wrote:If the Olympics is successful we will see a huge growth in participation and coverage of 7s. Struggle to see that translating to 15s though.

7's is the pioneer, the missionary that spreads the word.

If a school, that has never played rugby before, introduces 7's rugby then the seed's will grow and the game will spread. The opportunity to then introduce and develop the full game will be there.

Do you not think 7's at the Olympics will be a bit of a sideshow? It's unlike to have the focus placed on it as other more traditional events. Even football was a bit of a joke last time as it simply wasn't seen as an Olympic event. To grow anything in somewhere like the USA, the eternal 'when they take it seriously yadda yadda..' they'll need to be winning. They'll probably not even cover it in their news sections.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure it will be the 7s which draws people in as it really is very different obviously to the 15 man version. Looking purely at the English market I don't think a few more games like the France 6Ns can hurt. The big thing to build interest is prolonged dominance at the top and real superstar players whose exposure hits the mainstream media.

We touched upon this in 2003 with the WC and Wilkinson and we're now seeing the result with the amount of talented kids coming through (along with the increased importance placed on them granted). Problem was that once the golden generation retired or picked up injuries we fell back. If we manage to transistion a great bunch of younger players through to the senior team, play with imagination and flair and consistently win rugby will grow.

Imagine you've never watched a game of rugby in your life. This is what we're talking about - Rugby virgins!

7's is the easier game to sell to the world and for the novice viewer, to understand.

I was a very fortunate a child in the 70's as my father would take myself and my brothers with asorted friends and his drunken chums off to twickers to make merry and boo the welsh(london), as that was the done thing he said, but the thing is it was my first ever experience of rugby in the flesh.....a drug so powerful I sit here typing this now...halcyon days perhaps, but if that experience, even if by small quantity, can be reprocated for tomorrows children then rugby's development and future will be in safe hands.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you not think 7's at the Olympics will be a bit of a sideshow? It's unlike to have the focus placed on it as other more traditional events. Even football was a bit of a joke last time as it simply wasn't seen as an Olympic event. To grow anything in somewhere like the USA, the eternal 'when they take it seriously yadda yadda..' they'll need to be winning. They'll probably not even cover it in their news sections.

They won at Twickenham this year, and hansomly to boot!

You're rigbt the Olympics is a gamble and it has to be delivered - which will not be easy in Brazil - but it is a fantastic gamble and it is the right thing to do.

Must dash!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you not think 7's at the Olympics will be a bit of a sideshow? It's unlike to have the focus placed on it as other more traditional events. Even football was a bit of a joke last time as it simply wasn't seen as an Olympic event. To grow anything in somewhere like the USA, the eternal 'when they take it seriously yadda yadda..' they'll need to be winning. They'll probably not even cover it in their news sections.

Actually football is quite often the biggest draw at the Olympics - certainly the biggest crowds. It is only because GB do not enter a side that we do not realise this.

I just don't think the media attention is going to be there for the Germany's USA etc whose rugby viewship is in the infancy stage. Were USA the champs this year? Until they reign supreme they generally don't take that big of an interest.

In relation to the rugby virgin I still think you're more liekly to be drawn into the game for the big occasions. I think the England France game will have done a lot of good; great game loads of tries and back and forth. You could say 7s is simpler but if it doesn't seem a big event, which I doubt it will at the Olympics, then I don't think it will draw much of an audience.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you not think 7's at the Olympics will be a bit of a sideshow? It's unlike to have the focus placed on it as other more traditional events. Even football was a bit of a joke last time as it simply wasn't seen as an Olympic event. To grow anything in somewhere like the USA, the eternal 'when they take it seriously yadda yadda..' they'll need to be winning. They'll probably not even cover it in their news sections.

Actually football is quite often the biggest draw at the Olympics - certainly the biggest crowds. It is only because GB do not enter a side that we do not realise this.

Really? I know Brazil wanted it as they've never won but didn't think the viewers were there. What's the comparison to the WC for instance?

2012 - 1.5m people went to games, almost 50k per match
2008 - 1.4m, 43k per game
2000 - 1m, 32k per game
1996 - 700k, 43k per game (half the number of teams)

Greece in 2004 had poor attendances for most sports, including football.

Not sure on TV figures.

It is obviously smaller than the FIFA World Cup - but still a major event in it's own right.

I can't agree but fair enough.

I'm not sure there are many 'virgin viewers' to rugby in this day and age.

You stumble across everything on the internet, any American I know of, and granted that is not triple figure all know of rugby, but make the comparison to NFL and don't give it a chance because the NFL players are generally bigger and more explosive across the board.

You will never win over the Americans while popularity in the NFL remains, and well for half of the country it's a way of life, so there just isn't the room within the market!

Lets take Kabaddi for example, it's a tiny sport but i'm willing to guess most people know of it, and hve seen some of it!

PS. I should have said Football is biggest draw after Athletics at Olympics of course.

Will the Olympics do that much for rugby, I mean come on, it's hardly as though hockey, badminton, squash, basketball are that massively supported outside of their niche supporters, also, the Americans will never take a sport seriously unless they play it in their own country, but still call it a world event, the Americans do not like to participate in a sport where they do not stand a chance of winning the whole damn thing.

The inclusion of 7s in the Olympics has already had a massive impact. this can bee seen in the growth of countries participating in the world 7s series and the emergence of a European 7s series.

Should it become a permanent sport participation, globally, could rise again. This will however, imo, have no impact on 15s. Proper rugby is a niche sport played to a decent level in barely a handful of countries. In terms of global impact it is way behind Hockey and Basketball. That is not a bad thing however.

well, I may be wrong about rugby being behind hockey in global impact:

http://biggestglobalsports.com/

At the very least, 7s being in the Olympics means a lot more funding for rugby around the world. It's going to take more to transition but its a very good start! Also being in the Olympics is promotion of the game that money couldn't buy and it will also bust a few myths that many people around the world have of rugby, like it being a violent game.

Those results can be somewhat scewed though LT. I mean come on, a sport played in China and North America is going to have more support than a sport played in Australia, New Zealand and the Pacific Island nations and five countries in Europe. China has over a billion people living there on it's own, and that is without the few hundred million people living in America.

Basketball is huge across Europe. Not big here especially, though in terms of participation only behind football I believe.

Thing with football and Basketball is they are are pretty simple sports to follow and play. Limited equipment or resources needed.

I love rugby XVs, but would prefer it to stay a minority sport than change to the amount needed to become a global sport.

Yes I agree with you there LT. But link is not about a global support, in the sense of how many countries it is played in, it is how many people take part in any one place.

Take China for example, if everybody in China played and watched tiddlywinks, then all of a sudden it would be the biggest sport in the world, even though no other countries could give a flying fig about it.

Sure China is a key player in how those stats are calculated, but then so is India and why Cricket comes so high.

Now who knows what the biggest sport in the UK is based on participation?

LondonTiger wrote:Now who knows what the biggest sport in the UK is based on participation?

Bit of a punt, but fishing is still very poular and is covered by ALL ages so lots of people.

A lot depends on frequency when you look at the lists - however Swimming is consistently top of the list.

5.5m people swim at least once a month.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Now who knows what the biggest sport in the UK is based on participation?

Bit of a punt, but fishing is still very poular and is covered by ALL ages so lots of people.

I think it has to be that or Golf.

I dont want rugby to grow any bigger. With growth comes inevitable corruption and other negative side effects. Football for example for me is completely unwatchable because of all the cheating, corruption and other nonsense that comes with the ridiculous sums of money associated with the "sport". Professionalism and money is already beginning to ruin rugby particularly in the form of Toulon.

It is no surprise the that greatest sport in the world at the moment, gaelic football, is completely amature.

I agree with most of the above, Guns. I don't see what the obsession is with 'growing' the sport. I can understand it if you're a fan in a country that doesn't play it but what does the average fan in established nations get out of it? Call me selfish but it's not really on my agenda and the rugby world could look at sorting out various issues within itself rather than expanding.

Have to disagree about gaelic football though. Completely unwatchable!

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Now who knows what the biggest sport in the UK is based on participation?

Bit of a punt, but fishing is still very poular and is covered by ALL ages so lots of people.

You are right, I read in the Telegraph that fishing is the most participated sport in the UK.

Lacrosse so much better than Gaelic football.

Only about 1m people participate in Angling on a monthly basis across UK.

Cycling is growing and could overtake swimming in 2015

GunsGerms wrote:I dont want rugby to grow any bigger. With growth comes inevitable corruption and other negative side effects. Football for example for me is completely unwatchable because of all the cheating, corruption and other nonsense that comes with the ridiculous sums of money associated with the "sport". Professionalism and money is already beginning to ruin rugby particularly in the form of Toulon.

It is no surprise the that greatest sport in the world at the moment, gaelic football, is completely amature.

Although I agree with a lot of this I don't think 'growing' should be counted as 'professionalism'. I think the amateur game can grow massively in many european and south american countries without having to worry about huge money, profits and corruption etc...

The problem is the money in the club game, it's quite obvious from this forum alone attitudes are quite happy to see business tactics, and win at all costs attitudes in club rugby, which will inevitably work its way onto the pitch, into the stands and into the culture etc...

Club rugby can no longer distinguish itself from football in my opinion, hopefully that will not translate to the international stage any time soon, but I have to say growing the game has to be a huge priority for the sport, otherwise we might as well ring fence every international tournament we have even more so!

Cyril wrote:I agree with most of the above, Guns. I don't see what the obsession is with 'growing' the sport. I can understand it if you're a fan in a country that doesn't play it but what does the average fan in established nations get out of it? Call me selfish but it's not really on my agenda and the rugby world could look at sorting out various issues within itself rather than expanding.

Have to disagree about gaelic football though. Completely unwatchable!

You are extremely selfish!

A quality pro league in US would help. For those who say it doesn't stand a chance against American Football it doesn't need to, last years AF season was 23 weeks of which 2 had 4 games 2 had 2 games & 2 had only 1 game a week that leaves alot of weeks that could be filled with rugby for those contact sports fans.

broadlandboy wrote:A quality pro league in US would help. For those who say it doesn't stand a chance against American Football it doesn't need to, last years AF season was 23 weeks of which 2 had 4 games 2 had 2 games & 2 had only 1 game a week that leaves alot of weeks that could be filled with rugby for those contact sports fans.

But theyre not contact sports fans, theyre NFL fans, and then college football fans!

American football is a way of life for a lot of people, and for the weeks within the regular season their is a pre season schedule, college schedule, and then prime time events such as the combine, draft etc... not to mention high school football which regularly draws crowds!

It doesn't help that rugby and American Football seem to compete world wide for who's the biggest, strongest, fastest etc, rugby has become a bit of an enemy to American football

Sevens is a poor game that but for its inclusion in the Olympics, countries wouldn't be promoting it. The reason is that it can only operate in a tournament format.

There is no point in having a 14 (or 20) minute game between two teams and when it's over everyone packs up and goes home - there have to be a number of teams to make the event successful. That requires a level of organisation that doesn't translate down to grass roots level easily. Imagine training all week to get a 14 minute run out on a Saturday?

So the XV game will continue to be a niche sport, until World Rugby decide otherwise.

Fanster wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:A quality pro league in US would help. For those who say it doesn't stand a chance against American Football it doesn't need to, last years AF season was 23 weeks of which 2 had 4 games 2 had 2 games & 2 had only 1 game a week that leaves alot of weeks that could be filled with rugby for those contact sports fans.

But theyre not contact sports fans, theyre NFL fans, and then college football fans!

American football is a way of life for a lot of people, and for the weeks within the regular season their is a pre season schedule, college schedule, and then prime time events such as the combine, draft etc... not to mention high school football which regularly draws crowds!

It doesn't help that rugby and American Football seem to compete world wide for who's the biggest, strongest, fastest etc, rugby has become a bit of an enemy to American football

Not only that I don't think unless you live over in the states one realises how obsessive "Fantasy Football (NFL)" isss.. And from all age groups. i work with hedge fund managers and even the guys in their 50s, all they want to talk about is their fantasy team. People will literally disapear half the year from all non-NFL social events. I've tried so many times to bring people to watch rugby, but its simply too slow for americans (ie not enough second to second action)... its an ADHD sporting public...

Cyril wrote:I agree with most of the above, Guns. I don't see what the obsession is with 'growing' the sport. I can understand it if you're a fan in a country that doesn't play it but what does the average fan in established nations get out of it? Call me selfish but it's not really on my agenda and the rugby world could look at sorting out various issues within itself rather than expanding.

Have to disagree about gaelic football though. Completely unwatchable!

Fair enough Cyril. I grew up in a rugby family and I used to think that about Gaelic until I went to a match in Croke park. It is an incredible game. Trust me.

LondonTiger wrote:Lacrosse so much better than Gaelic football.

It isnt. I have been to the Lacrosse world cup final in Prague a few years ago and I have watched Duke play in North Carolina. It honestly isnt a patch on Gaelic football. Take a trip to the All Ireland championship in Croke Park and then make a call but trust me Lascosse does not come close.

I like Gaelic football myself, but hey everyone is different.

The sevens at the Olympics will massively increase the interest in rugby in some countries ( I'm sure I heard a story that China was looking for thousands of coaches now that a medal is on offer), but will this filter through into 15's? I'm not sure it will, not for a while anyway. In general sport seems to be shrinking in many ways as people/the media want to see the best vs the best, rather than the alsorans or new boys.

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Lacrosse so much better than Gaelic football.

It isnt. I have been to the Lacrosse world cup final in Prague a few years ago and I have watched Duke play in North Carolina. It honestly isnt a patch on Gaelic football. Take a trip to the All Ireland championship in Croke Park and then make a call but trust me Lascosse does not come close.

It's hard to judge GAA because during an all Ireland Croke is a crazy atmosphere that tries to take over, I happily go to finals for both sports, but would I go down to the local pitches and watch a lower level of the sport, no chance.

Yes but the unique atmosphere is part of the charm of the sport of Gaelic football. There has rarely if possibly never been trouble at a GAA game (lets not talk about bloody sunday please) of the sort you might see at a football match yet in Croke Park at the latter end of the championship you will get crowd noise to match any other big major sporting occasion. Couple that with the family friendly nature of the event and you have what I consider an almost perfect sports experience/day out. I think the GAA have done an insanely good job from top to bottom in sustaining and evolving their sports but I guess it may just fit my view of what a sporting occasion should be which is of course just an opinion.

I see rugby as having all the qualities of GAA too. However, I fear that this may gradually be changing.

Fanster wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Lacrosse so much better than Gaelic football.

It isnt. I have been to the Lacrosse world cup final in Prague a few years ago and I have watched Duke play in North Carolina. It honestly isnt a patch on Gaelic football. Take a trip to the All Ireland championship in Croke Park and then make a call but trust me Lascosse does not come close.

It's hard to judge GAA because during an all Ireland Croke is a crazy atmosphere that tries to take over, I happily go to finals for both sports, but would I go down to the local pitches and watch a lower level of the sport, no chance.

But thats the thing about the GAA - the local clubs in rural areas are generally the centre of the community and get good attendances (proportionate to their population).

Bit like rugby is for Jersey. There is little else to do on a saturday afternoon so nearly everyone meets at the rugby club.

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Lacrosse so much better than Gaelic football.

It isnt. I have been to the Lacrosse world cup final in Prague a few years ago and I have watched Duke play in North Carolina. It honestly isnt a patch on Gaelic football. Take a trip to the All Ireland championship in Croke Park and then make a call but trust me Lascosse does not come close.

Lacrosse is absolutely huge in the schools where I live in New Jersey. It is a fantastic game. In fact, in the town where I live I would guess American Football is the number three sport after Ice Hockey and Lacrosse. Lacrosse is fast paced, action oriented, physical, and very skillful. I don't really know which end of the stick to hold, but it is terrific to watch.

Ironically, Lacrosse is one of the rival sports for Rugby in America. We need to get those kids and show them there is a lifelong future with Rugby and sense of family which simply doesn't exist in any other sport.

wolfball wrote:

Fanster wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:A quality pro league in US would help. For those who say it doesn't stand a chance against American Football it doesn't need to, last years AF season was 23 weeks of which 2 had 4 games 2 had 2 games & 2 had only 1 game a week that leaves alot of weeks that could be filled with rugby for those contact sports fans.

But theyre not contact sports fans, theyre NFL fans, and then college football fans!

American football is a way of life for a lot of people, and for the weeks within the regular season their is a pre season schedule, college schedule, and then prime time events such as the combine, draft etc... not to mention high school football which regularly draws crowds!

It doesn't help that rugby and American Football seem to compete world wide for who's the biggest, strongest, fastest etc, rugby has become a bit of an enemy to American football

Not only that I don't think unless you live over in the states one realises how obsessive "Fantasy Football (NFL)" isss.. And from all age groups. i work with hedge fund managers and even the guys in their 50s, all they want to talk about is their fantasy team. People will literally disapear half the year from all non-NFL social events. I've tried so many times to bring people to watch rugby, but its simply too slow for americans (ie not enough second to second action)... its an ADHD sporting public...

I can sort of believe it but given that an NFL game can last for what, 3 hours? - they are obviously good at blocking out the bits where nothing is happening at all.