Refereeing appointments world cup

Here are some thoughts on the referee appointments.

Group A (England, Australia, Wales, Fiji and Uruguay). In my view referees from Group A nations (e.g. England or Wales) should referee these matches. Additionally no referee from one of the Group B nations (i.e. South Africa) should referee a game that might directly influence their nations opponents in the quarters. Key games affected, Australia v Wales (Joubert). You end up with a situation where Group B rankings should be known, Assuming South Africa finish 1st their opponents could be determined, given the potential closeness of this group the 2 qualifying teams, and South Africa semi finalist opponents could also be determined. Joubert is a fine ref, but a French, NZ or Irish ref would have been more appropriate.

Group B (South Africa, Scotland, Samoa, USA and Japan). In this instance Games involving South Africa with Samoa and Scotland are refereed by referees from Group A nations and the key game for determining the second qualifier is refereed by South African. South Africa should know if they finish 1st, in this case their potential semifinal opponents could be determined by one of their own referees. If they somehow lost a game Peyper could determine their fate. Peyper shouldn't be put in this position, a French, NZ or Irish ref would have been more appropriate. I don't think English and Welsh refs should control SA's games against Scotland and Samoa.

Group C (NZ, Argentina, Tonga, Georgia, and Namibia). It's not to bad. It would be better if French referees weren't involved. The saving grace is that the NZ games against Tonga and Georgia should be a gulf to great for the minnows.

Group D (France, Ireland, Canada, Italy, Romania). The big question is why was an Irish man selected to referee an Italy v Canada match or a French referee the Italy v Ireland game. Either side could beat France and French qualification or winning this group could be dependent on this last game. Not good enough.

Your thoughts.

I honestly don't care who refs Englands games...as long as they are consistent and understand that there are subtle differences to how the game is reffed up here in the NH and in the SH and to make sure they get it right.

I thought Jaco Peyper was in good form last night, however sadly International Rugby is much slower than Super Rugby, and as referees that only ref in the Northern Hemisphere never experience rugby down here they will just turn to throwing the rule book at game because they know nothing different.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I thought Jaco Peyper was in good form last night, however sadly International Rugby is much slower than Super Rugby, and as referees that only ref in the Northern Hemisphere never experience rugby down here they will just turn to throwing the rule book at  game because they know nothing different.

Most NH refs get some rugby champhionship games dont they?

Mister Nigel Owens is renowned as the ref that let's things 'swing'.... he's NH.  Possibly the ref in charge of most of the most famous 'exciting' games of International rugby played in the last five or so years.  He seems to be always the guy in charge when people mutter 'that was a classic game'.

And still he has his critics.  Is he creating the excitement by giving too many rule breaking edges to one team over another?  You still need rules.  And both teams still have to believe their competitiveness is being protected by those rules.

Back to the OP, the idea of selecting only those refs for games that can't possibly have an effect on an outcome that favours their home nationality is unsustainable. It also means we are bringing the whole idea of ref integrity into doubt. Refs make mistakes, but aren't biased.

It's fair enough (and sensible) not having officials on the field during matches involved their home nationality but why go further? We would just end up with a lower standard of refereeing and needing many more 'elite' refs during the World Cup. What about 6Ns etc? Should all matches be reffed by non 6Ns referees as, potentially, all nations have a vested interest in all outcomes.

If we go down this route then we're saying we don't trust the integrity of our referees (and there is no evidence to suggest we should think like that) and, therefore, we probably don't deserve them.

Cyril wrote:Back to the OP, the idea of selecting only those refs for games that can't possibly have an effect on an outcome that favours their home nationality is unsustainable. It also means we are bringing the whole idea of ref integrity into doubt. Refs make mistakes, but aren't biased.

It's fair enough (and sensible) not having officials on the field during matches involved their home nationality but why go further? We would just end up with a lower standard of refereeing and needing many more 'elite' refs during the World Cup. What about 6Ns etc? Should all matches be reffed by non 6Ns referees as, potentially, all nations have a vested interest in all outcomes.

If we go down this route then we're saying we don't trust the integrity of our referees (and there is no evidence to suggest we should think like that) and, therefore, we probably don't deserve them.

Of course they are biased. Everyone is. It is actually hightly probably that they are all at least sub consciously biased in some way. If people werent biased boxing matches wouldnt have a panel of judges. American football wouldnt have a panel of umpires and video refs etc. etc. Juries wouldnt be made up of 12 people and so on.

Personally I dont think an Englishman should have reffed this years Ireland v Wales game when England had so much to gain from Ireland losing. It just doesnt make any sense because it is practically the same as an English man reffing Ireland v England. They are going to want Ireland to lose either way, no?

You would not be an English rugby fan if you didnt.

GunsGerms wrote:

Cyril wrote:Back to the OP, the idea of selecting only those refs for games that can't possibly have an effect on an outcome that favours their home nationality is unsustainable. It also means we are bringing the whole idea of ref integrity into doubt. Refs make mistakes, but aren't biased.

It's fair enough (and sensible) not having officials on the field during matches involved their home nationality but why go further? We would just end up with a lower standard of refereeing and needing many more 'elite' refs during the World Cup. What about 6Ns etc? Should all matches be reffed by non 6Ns referees as, potentially, all nations have a vested interest in all outcomes.

If we go down this route then we're saying we don't trust the integrity of our referees (and there is no evidence to suggest we should think like that) and, therefore, we probably don't deserve them.

Of course they are biased. Everyone is. It is actually hightly probably that they are all at least sub consciously biased in some way. If people werent biased boxing matches wouldnt have a panel of judges. American football wouldnt have a panel of umpires and video refs etc. etc. Juries wouldnt be made up of 12 people and so on.

Personally I dont think an Englishman should have reffed this years Ireland v Wales game when England had so much to gain from Ireland losing. It just doesnt make any sense because it is practically the same as an English man reffing Ireland v England. They are going to want Ireland to lose either way, no?

You would not be an English rugby fan if you didnt.

WHOOMP... there it is. WHOOMP... there it is.

Sorry Jimpy I'm not familiar with the word "Whomp". What are you trying to say?

Barnes was also educated in Wales. He should not have been given that game. It was absolutely disgraceful that Steve Walsh pulled out too.

You really need to get over it.

GunsGerms wrote:Sorry Jimpy I'm not familiar with the word "Whomp". What are you trying to say?

Barnes was also educated in Wales. He should not have been given that game. It was absolutely disgraceful that Steve Walsh pulled out too.

Where do you stop? Do you check if they were ever bullied at school by someone from a different country in the 6N? Do you ask if a referee prefers Irish or Scots Whiskey?

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sorry Jimpy I'm not familiar with the word "Whomp". What are you trying to say?

Barnes was also educated in Wales. He should not have been given that game. It was absolutely disgraceful that Steve Walsh pulled out too.

Where do you stop? Do you check if they were ever bullied at school by someone from a different country in the 6N? Do you ask if a referee prefers Irish or Scots Whiskey?

No need to be silly. Barnes spend a good part of his life living in Wales. What more do you want?

Its like the idea of Steve Walsh reffing NZ games seemed ridiculous to me even though he is meant to be representing Australia.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You really need to get over it.

Why? I think rugby would be better sport with better referees. Barnes isnt good enough to be on an elite list of refs. I have never liked him. Long list of incidents involving Barnes. He should be dropped ASAP.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sorry Jimpy I'm not familiar with the word "Whomp". What are you trying to say?

Barnes was also educated in Wales. He should not have been given that game. It was absolutely disgraceful that Steve Walsh pulled out too.

Where do you stop? Do you check if they were ever bullied at school by someone from a different country in the 6N? Do you ask if a referee prefers Irish or Scots Whiskey?

No need to be silly. Barnes spend a good part of his life living in Wales. What more do you want?

Its like the idea of Steve Walsh reffing NZ games seemed ridiculous to me even though he is meant to be representing Australia.

If that was the case then if either of my kids became top level referees then there would be a possibility of bias were Wales were to be involved. What that would mean is that Wales would be in trouble....

Its a stupid argument Barnes might have hated his time there.

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Sorry Jimpy I'm not familiar with the word "Whomp". What are you trying to say?

Barnes was also educated in Wales. He should not have been given that game. It was absolutely disgraceful that Steve Walsh pulled out too.

Where do you stop? Do you check if they were ever bullied at school by someone from a different country in the 6N? Do you ask if a referee prefers Irish or Scots Whiskey?

No need to be silly. Barnes spend a good part of his life living in Wales. What more do you want?

Its like the idea of Steve Walsh reffing NZ games seemed ridiculous to me even though he is meant to be representing Australia.

If that was the case then if either of my kids became top level referees then there would be a possibility of bias were Wales were to be involved. What that would mean is that Wales would be in trouble....

Its a stupid argument Barnes might have hated his time there.

Barnes might hate living England too. However, based on probability he probably should not ref Wales or England games particularly when the biggest beneficiaries of a Wales win are England. Just seems ridiculous and fairly obvious. Perhaps not to everyone.

Hope you do not mind but I will apply more credence to the opinions of the World Rugby Referee Selectors and Assessors - all experienced former refs - over a one eyed fan with an axe to grind.

What is obvious is you are accusing a referee of corruption.

Can I just point out that Barnes spent a mere 2 years being educated in Wales, and if he went home to Gloucester for Christmas and summer then really it was less than 2 years... Not sure how that would be relevant though. If it is, then Alain Rolland should never have officiated a game involving France.

LondonTiger wrote:What is obvious is you are accusing a referee of corruption.

If it helps Ill post a list again of the Ireland games Barnes has reffed in the last 10 years. The list includes quite a few of the most notorious Ireland losses of the last decade.

If you actually look at the games and view the obvious trends it makes for interesting reading. You arent an Ireland fan so may not have seen all the games however, I assure you something dodgy nearly always happens when Barnes refs. Barnes has reffed nearly half of all Ireland Wales 6 nations games in this time.

I have never accused him of corruption but others have including a world cup winning coach. There is no smoke without fire.

LondonTiger wrote:Hope you do not mind but I will apply more credence to the opinions of the World Rugby Referee Selectors and Assessors - all experienced former refs - over a one eyed fan with an axe to grind.

If you do not wish to think for yourself that is your perogative.

Barnes is a good ref and had a good game in Ireland vs Wales.

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Hope you do not mind but I will apply more credence to the opinions of the World Rugby Referee Selectors and Assessors - all experienced former refs - over a one eyed fan with an axe to grind.

If you do not wish to think for yourself that is your perogative.

We do think for ourselves. Based on what I have seen over the last few years I'd say that Barnes is human and like any other referee makes mistakes, but on the whole he does very well and referees better looking games. I can't remember watching the games when he has refereed Ireland and if I did see them I wasn't wearing green filters on my glasses so I can't really comment on how he works for you but I do think he's a good referee,

GunsGerms wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:What is obvious is you are accusing a referee of corruption.

If it helps Ill post a list again of the Ireland games Barnes has reffed in the last 10 years. The list includes quite a few of the most notorious Ireland losses of the last decade.

If you actually look at the games and view the obvious trends it makes for interesting reading. You arent an Ireland fan so may not have seen all the games however, I assure you something dodgy nearly always happens when Barnes refs. Barnes has reffed nearly half of all Ireland Wales 6 nations games in this time.

I have never accused him of corruption but others have including a world cup winning coach. There is no smoke without fire.

If it helps, its obvious you're accusing Barnes of corruption.

No but I can point you to a number of articles where a world cup winning manager does accuse him of match fixing.

Have the courage of your convinctions at least.

GunsGerms wrote:No but I can point you to a number of articles where a world cup winning manager does accuse him of match fixing.

Well, so Barnes is definitely not a problem for Ireland then is he.

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:No but I can point you to a number of articles where a world cup winning manager does accuse him of match fixing.

Well, so Barnes is definitely not a problem for Ireland then is he.

Joe Schmidt also requested clarification on a number of his decisions post Wales game. If you look at the Ireland games Barnes has presided over in the last 10 years you will realise that amoungst those games are most of Ireland's most notorious losses or performances. Coincidence?

Also of the 12 games he has reffed 5 have been Wales games. Why so many Wales games? He has actually reffed 5 of the last 8 Ireland v Wales 6 nations games. Two of these games Steve Walsh was due to ref but Barnes stepped in last minute. Why?

GunsGerms wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:No but I can point you to a number of articles where a world cup winning manager does accuse him of match fixing.

Well, so Barnes is definitely not a problem for Ireland then is he.

Joe Schmidt also requested clarification on a number of his decisions post Wales game. If you look at the Ireland games Barnes has presided over in the last 10 years you will realise that amoungst those games are most of Ireland's most notorious losses or performances. Coincidence?

Also of the 12 games he has reffed 5 have been Wales games. Why so many Wales games? He has actually reffed 5 of the last 8 Ireland v Wales 6 nations games. Two of these games Steve Walsh was due to ref but Barnes stepped in last minute. Why?

No, just a simple failure on the part of Ireland to adapt and play to Barnes's style of officiating, and the fact that on the day, Ireland may not have been the best team.

Why?

Walsh needed time off on both occasions to honour previous commitments to Second Shooter Conventions, where he is always signing copies of his 'Chief Suspect' Mug Shots from back in the day

Jimpy wrote:
No, just a simple failure on the part of Ireland to adapt and play to Barnes's style of officiating, and the fact that on the day, Ireland may not have been the best team.

Did he not tell you how many times Barnes shows up for us?  I think if any team is going to be considered ready for a Barnes game style then it should be Ireland....

But that's the problem.  They all know him so well that he can always pull the fast one when he chats with them before the games:  "Now listen up chaps, this time I promise I won't officiate like last time so relax and enjoy the game"  That makes the Irish boys suspect a big rat and play accordingly - trying to do everything right that Barnes pinged as 'wrong' in the last game.....

Idiots, he was being honest in not choosing to ref the game like last time.  Everything that was wrong that they corrected is now wrong because they corrected it

I was also under the impression that coaches will often ask for 'clarification' post game. There can be very good reasons for doing so, but its also a very easy way of trying to shift blame if things haven't gone well.

Jimpy wrote:

No, just a simple failure on the part of Ireland to adapt and play to Barnes's style of officiating, and the fact that on the day, Ireland may not have been the best team.

Teams should not be expected to adapt to unpredictable and inconsistant refereeing. There must be a level playing field where a ref applys the same judgement to both teams. You do not get this with Barnes.

Think it's more to do with limited amount of top players that lets you down rather than the ref. For instance in the Wales game you're moaning about Barnes whereas it was the lack of a magical performance by Sexton which was the marked difference between that and the England game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it's more to do with limited amount of top players that lets you down rather than the ref. For instance in the Wales game you're moaning about Barnes whereas it was the lack of a magical performance by Sexton which was the marked difference between that and the England game.

There comes a point when players generally perform well in games officiated by other referees and yet below their best when a certain ref is in charge that you start to wonder if it is in fact the referees influence that is stifiling the performance.

Of the 6 worst Ireland performances of the last 10 years I can think of Barnes reffed 4 of those games. He plays god too often and in my opinion exerts way too much influence in games and is also way too inconsistent and unpredictable to be an elite ref.

Barnes was previously dropped from the elite panel of referees after he failed to notice Bradley Davies dangerous tip tackle v Ireland in 2012. I strongly believe that he should have been dropped again.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it's more to do with limited amount of top players that lets you down rather than the ref. For instance in the Wales game you're moaning about Barnes whereas it was the lack of a magical performance by Sexton which was the marked difference between that and the England game.

Hmmm...twas Sexton that lost us the English game the year before

No, surely it was the ref?

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it's more to do with limited amount of top players that lets you down rather than the ref. For instance in the Wales game you're moaning about Barnes whereas it was the lack of a magical performance by Sexton which was the marked difference between that and the England game.

Hmmm...twas Sexton that lost us the English game the year before  

Sexton had a bang on the head. I believe that was accidental as I can't remember the exact circumstances. If he wasn't playing to his best ability afterwards then his coach should have substituted him, unless he believed that Sexton with a sore head was still better than the alternatives.

In other words you can put the loss down to his performance but he alone was not responsible for that performance

to 7&1/2:

well...both of them...they obviously conspired.  Someone should relook the betting patterns in the lead in.  I think there is a story there......

lostinwales wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it's more to do with limited amount of top players that lets you down rather than the ref. For instance in the Wales game you're moaning about Barnes whereas it was the lack of a magical performance by Sexton which was the marked difference between that and the England game.

Hmmm...twas Sexton that lost us the English game the year before  

Sexton had a bang on the head. I believe that was accidental as I can't remember the exact circumstances. If he wasn't playing to his best ability afterwards then his coach should have substituted him, unless he believed that Sexton with a sore head was still better than the alternatives.

In other words you can put the loss down to his performance but he alone was not responsible for that performance

I agree with every word, Lost.  I Was in tomfoolery mode there of course  The coach Should have substituted him...not for the game's sake so much as for Sexton's own safety.  Bad miss there from our staff.  I was screaming at the TV "Get him off"

Yes. Sorry I keep on switching between serious and silly mode here based on the thread...

GunsGerms wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

No, just a simple failure on the part of Ireland to adapt and play to Barnes's style of officiating, and the fact that on the day, Ireland may not have been the best team.

Teams should not be expected to adapt to unpredictable and inconsistant refereeing. There must be a level playing field where a ref applys the same judgement to both teams. You do not get this with Barnes.

How can a team adapt to a ref who wants to see you lose?

rodders wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

No, just a simple failure on the part of Ireland to adapt and play to Barnes's style of officiating, and the fact that on the day, Ireland may not have been the best team.

Teams should not be expected to adapt to unpredictable and inconsistant refereeing. There must be a level playing field where a ref applys the same judgement to both teams. You do not get this with Barnes.

How can a team adapt to a ref who wants to see you lose?

Not only is that ridiculous paranoia, its borderline libel.