Trump Turnberry

by Redrage Thu 23 Jul 2015, 2:30 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/golf/33635904

Former world women's number one Dame Laura Davies believes tycoon Donald Trump's dramatic redevelopment plans for Turnberry will be positive.
The Ayrshire course will have five new holes constructed this year.
"I was talking to R&A members who are in the know last week at The Open and they say the R&A is absolutely delighted with the changes," she said.
"Everyone is excited, so for once he is not controversial, he's doing a really good thing for an Open rota course."

Turnberry has staged The Open in 1977, 1986, 1994 and 2009.

The Ailsa Course at Turnberry was established in 1901 and its current design, drawn up by Scottish architect Philip Mackenzie Ross, has been in place since 1950.
It has staged four Open Championships, the last of which was in 2009, and next week will host the Women's British Open for a second time, the final major event before the reconstruction begins.
American Trump bought the resort from Dubai-based Leisurecorp last year and has announced he will spend £100m developing the links, which will become known as Trump Turnberry.
"As soon as we've gone, maybe a month after we've finished there, they are going to start doing it," said Dame Laura, who won the British Open title at Royal Birkdale in 1986.
One of the most dramatic differences will be at the ninth hole, a par four which featured prominently in the popular BBC Pro-Celebrity television series of the 1980s and requires a tee shot to carry from the coastline across a cliff face on to the fairway.
"Number nine is now going to be a 245-yard par three going in the other direction on to the ocean," Dame Laura told BBC Sport. "Number 11 is the same, that's going to come round the coast, the biggest changes are mainly around the coastline by the lighthouse. Apparently, 14 holes are being changed in total."

If it was anyone else, I wouldn't mind so much... but he is horrible and crass little man. Even the name Trump Turnberry is crass. Is that really the best he could do? I hope that is the name of the whole resort and not the new name for the Ailsa.

by MustPuttBetter Thu 23 Jul 2015, 2:51 pm

I thought when he bought Turnberry he made a promise that it wasn't going to be altered? Or did I dream that?

by McLaren Thu 23 Jul 2015, 3:36 pm

I thought when he made disgusting comments about Mexicans (and many others) he would be facing a universal boycott in his business dealings. What next for the R&A, the Robert Mugabe invitational?

Does a positive R&A response to the changes mean Turnberry is poised to be named as a future open site?

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 24 Jul 2015, 11:11 am

Pretty sure I remember something along those lines as well MPB. Abiding by one's promises doesn't apply to The Fart though does it?

Tend to agree with you Mac. Then again, as we've recently had confirmed, the R&A have no shame whatsoever and will do anything for money.

by Bob_the_Job Fri 24 Jul 2015, 12:10 pm

Setting aside the man (preferably in a deep lake wearing concrete shoes it would seem) for the moment, are the changes going to make Turnberry a better course or not?

by super_realist Fri 24 Jul 2015, 12:22 pm

As far as I can remember, Trump said he wouldn't change the course without R&A approval.

by MustPuttBetter Fri 24 Jul 2015, 12:53 pm

It will be interesting as from what most of the players say, Turnberry, both for setting and layout, is one of the better - if not the best - of the Open courses.
I went up there to watch in 2009 and it was spectacular and good for viewing too.
If he manages to make it better still, he'll have done well! I have a feeling this is only going one way

by I'm never wrong Fri 24 Jul 2015, 1:06 pm

super_realist wrote:As far as I can remember, Trump said he wouldn't change the course without R&A approval.

Quote from Daily Telegraph a year ago bears this out Super. "He and his golf course architect, Martin Ebert, were also keen to stress that nothing would be done to change the main course without the full approval of the R&A, the game’s St Andrews-based governing body. "

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 24 Jul 2015, 1:45 pm

I'm never wrong wrote:
super_realist wrote:As far as I can remember, Trump said he wouldn't change the course without R&A approval.
Quote from Daily Telegraph a year ago bears this out Super. "He and his golf course architect, Martin Ebert, were also keen to stress that nothing would be done to change the main course without the full approval of the R&A, the game’s St Andrews-based governing body. "

So, in other words, it's looking like the R&A have simply said "Hey Donald! Go ahead. With you all the way on messing around with an acknowledged great of the golf course world!". Wonder how much The Fart chucked their way to give it the go ahead (if they have, in fact, given him the OK)?

by Davie Fri 24 Jul 2015, 2:11 pm

Maybe, just maybe, they really DO approve of his proposals?

by Roller_Coaster Fri 24 Jul 2015, 2:20 pm

It's the only one I have played or seen in person, and I loved it. Spectacular. If there are better ones, then wow. They must be chuffing amazing.

But, that's not to say it couldn't possibly be improved. Maybe Trump's team have come up with positive changes worthy of approval.

by Redrage Fri 24 Jul 2015, 2:23 pm

Davie wrote:Maybe, just maybe, they really DO approve of his proposals?

Perhaps they do and I suppose it isn't impossible. I haven't heard many negatives about Menie Dunes course from a golfing perspective... So the architect obviously does very good work. Still boycotting it out of principal though lol.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 24 Jul 2015, 2:35 pm

Davie wrote:Maybe, just maybe, they really DO approve of his proposals?

Maybe they do but I wouldn't trust Trump as far as I could throw him.

by MustPuttBetter Fri 24 Jul 2015, 2:42 pm

I don't think I've ever seen a grown man throw another grown man any considerable distance

by super_realist Fri 24 Jul 2015, 2:53 pm

Could throw his wig some distance though

by Davie Fri 24 Jul 2015, 2:54 pm

navyblueshorts wrote:
Davie wrote:Maybe, just maybe, they really DO approve of his proposals?
Maybe they do but I wouldn't trust Trump as far as I could throw him.

Yes right, so why let a possible fact get in the way of a good moan just because you don't like him

by raycastleunited Fri 24 Jul 2015, 3:01 pm

Guys, you can judge for yourself what you think of the changes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPRQjC5pY2g

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 24 Jul 2015, 3:30 pm

Davie wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Davie wrote:Maybe, just maybe, they really DO approve of his proposals?
Maybe they do but I wouldn't trust Trump as far as I could throw him.

Yes right, so why let a possible fact get in the way of a good moan just because you don't like him

Perhaps because it's not a fact supported by evidence and Trump has more than enough form? The man's a tosspot and worthy of a moan at any time.

raycastleunited wrote:Guys, you can judge for yourself what you think of the changes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPRQjC5pY2g

Certainly looks interesting in places but so is the original course. I guess he can do what he wants - he usually does.

by kwinigolfer Fri 24 Jul 2015, 3:35 pm

I wonder if he checked with the R&A about slagging off Mexicans, Lindsay Graham and prisoners of war?

by McLaren Fri 24 Jul 2015, 3:47 pm

Davie wrote:Maybe, just maybe, they really DO approve of his proposals?

That is the point. If Davis is to be believed they DO approve of his proposals, which suggests they are in conversation with Trump about his course holding the open. I suggest that the R&A should not be having this conversation and should end all ties with Trump.

by raycastleunited Fri 24 Jul 2015, 3:49 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:I wonder if he checked with the R&A about slagging off Mexicans, Lindsay Graham and prisoners of war?

R&A probably agree with his casual racism. It's not exactly the most forward looking organisation. They've only just relented regarding allowing a few women in, probably another century before "immigrants" get a look in (unless they're cleaners).

by super_realist Fri 24 Jul 2015, 4:16 pm

I bet if we knew the business dealing of every company from which we buy goods and services we'd find something objectionable with most of them

Trump may make his repulsiveness well known, but I doubt he's any worse than most big bosses.

by MontysMerkin Tue 28 Jul 2015, 12:27 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/28/donald-trump-lawyer-threatens-reporter That sort of puts a tin hat on it.

by Seve76 Tue 28 Jul 2015, 1:29 pm

I've always considered Trump a philistine, ever since he described Pinehurst in 2014 as looking like " a building site".
However, I have to say that the changes to Turnberry look good. Especially to the 9th hole which, despite it's iconic setting, is a poor hole - the fairway too narrow given that the drive is at an angle. And let's not get overly precious about the Turnberry layout, as it's not that old.
The only reservation is that several of the new greens/tees are being plonked right on the extreme edges of the coast. Meaning they'll have a shelf life of X number of years before coastal erosion starts damaging them.

by super_realist Tue 28 Jul 2015, 1:32 pm

Seve76 wrote:I've always considered Trump a philistine, ever since he described Pinehurst in 2014 as looking like " a building site".
However, I have to say that the changes to Turnberry look good. Especially to the 9th hole which, despite it's iconic setting, is a poor hole - the fairway too narrow given that the drive is at an angle. And let's not get overly precious about the Turnberry layout, as it's not that old.
The only reservation is that several of the new greens/tees are being plonked right on the extreme edges of the coast. Meaning they'll have a shelf life of X number of years before coastal erosion starts damaging them.

Coastal erosion is not really an issue on the West Coast Seve, it's mostly the courses on the east which are subject to those sort of problems.

by McLaren Tue 28 Jul 2015, 1:44 pm

The architects proposals for Trumpberry http://www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk/Downloads/Proposals%20for%20the%20Ailsa%20Course%20at%20Trump%20Turnberry%20Booklet%202015%20LR.pdf

Monty, Surely even in America Trump is nearing the limits of what is acceptable for someone running for office.

by MontysMerkin Tue 28 Jul 2015, 1:56 pm

To be honest I think he's probably too bright to get the job.

by MustPuttBetter Tue 28 Jul 2015, 2:14 pm

Seve76 wrote:let's not get overly precious about the Turnberry layout, as it's not that old.

Just the 109 years eh?

by super_realist Tue 28 Jul 2015, 2:30 pm

It's completely unrecognisable from then. It's really only post WW2 where it resembles anything remotely like the current layout.

by McLaren Tue 28 Jul 2015, 3:13 pm

If you go to the link I posted you can see how the layout has changed since the original course.

by Roller_Coaster Tue 28 Jul 2015, 3:14 pm

McLaren wrote:The architects proposals for Trumpberry http://www.mackenzieandebert.co.uk/Downloads/Proposals%20for%20the%20Ailsa%20Course%20at%20Trump%20Turnberry%20Booklet%202015%20LR.pdf

Cheers Mac, just looked through all that. Very interesting and sounds very worthwhile golf wise. Appreciate it's from the designer so is all positive, positive, positive with a marketing angle, but an interesting read nonetheless.

I'm not 100% convinced on paper that the 9th and 11th (or whatever will be the 2 par 3's right up along and played over the coast - I've forgotten numbers already) will be sufficiently differentiated in experience when played so close together, but we'll see.

Suite, restaurant and halfway house in the lighthouse sounds fantastic. Would be a great place to stay (for resort and tourist golfers, rather than the hardened members/players out for golf and only golf)

What I don't like (in line with the egotistical impression I have of the man) is renaming bits and pieces in the hotel etc Trump this and Trump that. But to be fair, that is in line with what he does throughout his other hotels (and it is his!).

Might save up and have a go in 2017/18 when it's bedded in (but probably won't knowing me!)

by George1507 Tue 28 Jul 2015, 6:14 pm

Other Open rota courses have had holes knocked about and changed and new holes built and old holes abandoned.

I don't see any reason Trump shouldn't do it too, and presumably he knows that the R&A won't take the Open back there if he messes it up.

by kwinigolfer Tue 28 Jul 2015, 6:51 pm

"Messes" what "up"?
Agree with what you say George except that his incendiary/racist/etc/etc comments should surely disqualify him from any dealings with sports organizations?
He messes it up every time he opens his mouth.

by super_realist Wed 29 Jul 2015, 8:07 am

Looks like a very thorough re-design. I presume that Trump has had some sort of assurance from the R&A that these changes won't harm his chances of holding an Open there, if he gets The Scottish Open at Menie too I can imagine Mac and Gael will explode.

by McLaren Wed 29 Jul 2015, 12:08 pm

Super

As you and others have already commented above, along with Laura Davis's (although she does think tiger can win another major) comments, the assumption is that these changes are looked upon favourably by the R&A. This is clearly a worry as you would hope that someone making the sort of comments trump has been making about r*** and immigrants would be excluded from dealings with the R&A.

From a golf course architecture perspective I would hope the changes are somewhat sympathetic to the original Turnberry but more importantly we do not want to see a Doral perched on the west coast of Scotland.

As Roller said "I'm not 100% convinced on paper that the 9th and 11th... ..will be sufficiently differentiated in experience when played so close together". I agree, and have seen a solution that would have the 9th as a driveable par 4 where you would have to drive over the sea to get to the green. Although my taste for par 3's is for holes where the green is large and provides the fun rather than the shot to the green. For example the 8th on TOC vs the 12th at ANGC. So if a par three only offers a dramatic tee shot even if it is rather spectacular which the holes at Turnberry could be having too so close together wouldn't add anything to the course as a whole.

by raycastleunited Wed 29 Jul 2015, 12:43 pm

oh dear Mac, this I where you consistently go wrong. As far as I am aware, Trumpster hasn't made any comments about r@pe. He's not exactly the loveliest person in the world but don't fall into the media trap like a fool.

by super_realist Wed 29 Jul 2015, 12:49 pm

Mac, the 8th on TOC is about the worst hole in all of St.Andrews.

by McLaren Wed 29 Jul 2015, 1:10 pm

raycastleunited wrote:oh dear Mac, this I where you consistently go wrong. As far as I am aware, Trumpster hasn't made any comments about r@pe. He's not exactly the loveliest person in the world but don't fall into the media trap like a fool.

He has made one comment on r*** directly himself (mexicans are rapists) and has failed to adequately deal with his lawyers widely inaccurate and dangerous remark on r*** (you cannot r*** your wife).

His comments on mexicans;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1syqkd1uf8w

His lawyers comments on r***;

“You’re talking about the front-runner for the GOP, presidential candidate, as well as private individual who never raped anybody. And, of course, understand that by the very definition, you can’t r*** your spouse”

Trumps response to this (where he claims he disagrees with his lawyer);

“Michael was extremely angry because he knew it [the alleged r***] never took place, he knew this website was a joke … and maybe he didn’t even understand the question, but no, I don’t [agree with Cohen]; I disagreed with him. In fact, when I read it I disagreed. I don’t know that he said it – who knows what he said because frankly I’m not sure they reported accurately anyway. But assuming he said it, no, I disagree with that.”

Not exactly a clear condemnation of the position that you cannot r*** a spouse. It seems that Trump has just thought it's a bummer that he made those comments but I don't care enough about the issue to fire the creeps ass. I don't know about anyone else but I don't just disagree with the premise "you cannot r*** a spouse" I find it dangerous, hurtful and if believed by an individual then a good reason to have no association with them.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 29 Jul 2015, 1:15 pm

raycastleunited wrote:oh dear Mac, this I where you consistently go wrong. As far as I am aware, Trumpster hasn't made any comments about r@pe. He's not exactly the loveliest person in the world but don't fall into the media trap like a fool.

Actually, he has made comments re. r@pe, specifically in the context of Mexican immigrants to the U.S.:

When Mexico sends its people, they are not sending their best. [...] They are sending people that have lots of problems. They are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs and they are bringing crime and their rapists, and some are good people, and I speak to border guards and they tell us what we are getting.

Trump's patently an arse, but he's rich so that's OK.

by George1507 Wed 29 Jul 2015, 1:15 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:"Messes" what "up"?
Agree with what you say George except that his incendiary/racist/etc/etc comments should surely disqualify him from any dealings with sports organizations?
He messes it up every time he opens his mouth.

Yes, I agree that his outlook on life is pretty incendiary. My comment about messing it up was just about whatever he decides to change at Turnberry. Some changes to courses seem natural and obvious and you can tell right away they have improved matters. Other changes seem to be made for no apparent reason, don't work, make things worse, and then they try to figure out how to change them back again.

Ernie Els' incessant tinkering with the West Course at Wentworth haven't endeared him to the members there and he's changed the West Course into something which doesn't look natural, or Surrey, or England or anything other than an American style parkland course. I know it needed a bit of a face lift for the PGA Championship, but Els has painted a moustache on the Mona Lisa.

Turnberry had some changes in the years before the 2009 Open. The 16th fairway was moved about 60 yards left of where it used to be, lengthening and changing the approach angle to the green. Most people think it's worked pretty well. I hope the changes to be made don't destroy the natural feel that Turnberry has, it's one of the nicest links courses to play.

Speaking of changes, the 10th and 15th at Troon have been altered in the last few years. There used to be a giant bunker apparently on the sandhill on the 10th, and that's been reinstated. And the 15th has been realigned, and it's a pretty tough proposition now. Going to be similar in difficulty to the 17th on the Old Course I think.

Looking forward to next year's Open.

by Bob_the_Job Wed 29 Jul 2015, 1:27 pm

McLaren wrote:... has failed to adequately deal with his campaign managers widely inaccurate and dangerous remark on r***

"widely inaccurate".. Cohen is a special legal counsel. Corey R. Lewandowski is his campaign manager. Oh the irony.

by McLaren Wed 29 Jul 2015, 1:37 pm

I will fix that error if you like and you can judge whether or not the validity of my point changes. I am pretty sure the guys title within the Trump organisation will not impact the truth of the statement "you cannot r*** a spouse".

by McLaren Wed 29 Jul 2015, 1:41 pm

bob

Thanks for bringing this up, for years I was convinced that r*** was r***, regardless of whether the person was your partner or not. But I have now come to realise that the job title of the person making the claim "you cannot r*** a spouse" was the crucial piece of evidence I was missing.

Having corrected my post as per your comment on the errors it contained I am now convinced it is ok to r*** a spouse and that those making such comments should not be condemned. thumbsup

by raycastleunited Wed 29 Jul 2015, 1:57 pm

McLaren wrote:bob

Thanks for bringing this up, for years I was convinced that r*** was r***, regardless of whether the person was your partner or not. But I have now come to realise that the job title of the person making the claim "you cannot r*** a spouse" was the crucial piece of evidence I was missing.

Having corrected my post as per your comment on the errors it contained I am now convinced it is ok to r*** a spouse and that those making such comments should not be condemned.

The dead pan doesn't work when typed like this.

Look everyone thinks Trumpy is an evil villain who wouldn't be out of place in a movie like Austin Powers or Despicable Me, I just don't think we need to attribute comments to him that others have said "on his behalf" (or not). He says enough himself to inspire loathing.

Anyway, thanks for posting the link to the designs. Very interesting, and looks spectacular. I can't really comment on whether they are messing up the existing layout as I've not played the Ailsa and can only really remember bits from 2009.

Seems to me in an attempt to deliver more spectacular views the course will become more exposed, especially with tees on the coast on top of dunes. Could be a nightmare in poor weather (i.e. 90% of the time).

by kwinigolfer Wed 29 Jul 2015, 1:58 pm

Slightly off topic (the Turnberry part anyway), but this news article contains reference to something quite bizarre that I've never seen reported elsewhere:
Trump forced "himself on his then-wife as revenge for her encouraging him to undergo painful and unsuccessful scalp reduction surgery in the late 1980's".
What is "scalp reduction surgery"? Is there some forehead scarring that encourages his ridiculous hairstyle?? Was his head just too big for his liking, or Ivana's???

What's the deal with that?!!?

by super_realist Wed 29 Jul 2015, 2:02 pm

Ray, the weather in Scotland isn't nearly as bad as people inside the M25 seem to think. However, if the weather is bad, it doesn't matter how you've laid the course out, you won't get any protection.

by raycastleunited Wed 29 Jul 2015, 2:03 pm

Yeah I read this and was also baffled Kwini! Yikes

by McLaren Wed 29 Jul 2015, 2:07 pm

Kwini

I had that conversation with my girlfriend last night. WTF is scalp reduction surgery and as you say does it explain his ridiculous hair piece?

Did they accidentally remove some of his brain when they trimmed his scalp?

Ray

It seems the main aim of the design changes is to maximise the sea views. Which as long as the strategy of the holes is maintained to a good standardi t is fine, for non architecture geeks how spectacular the setting is can be a major determinant of round enjoyment.

by super_realist Wed 29 Jul 2015, 2:11 pm

McLaren wrote:Kwini

I had that conversation with my imaginary girlfriend last night. WTF is scalp reduction surgery and as you say does it explain his ridiculous hair piece?

Did they accidentally remove some of his brain when they trimmed his scalp?

Ray

It seems the main aim of the design changes is to maximise the sea views. Which as long as the strategy of the holes is maintained to a good standardi t is fine, for non architecture geeks how spectacular the setting is can be a major determinant of round enjoyment.

by raycastleunited Wed 29 Jul 2015, 2:15 pm

Super - it was a joke, but the Ayrshire coast is pretty well known for its rubbish weather. I'm sure it's significantly wetter than say Fife or E. Lothian.

I was thinking about some links courses eg Birkdale where you are often down in the dunes and a little sheltered from gusts. It won't keep you dry but it does help you make a stable swing or prevent balls oscillating on greens.

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