England squads to tour the UAE and South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Good afternoon all.

I accept this is a bit premature with the 5th Ashes test and ODI series still to come. However with 3 tests against Pakistan and a further 4 against South Africa to follow before the end of January I thought I would start a thread to discuss possible squad changes and team selection for these coming tours.

Due to the vast difference in conditions with which the side will be faced by in each of the series the squad selection will be more pertinent than usual.

In the UAE we will need 3 spinners in the squad. With two guaranteed to be Moeen and Rashid that leaves space for a bolter. With no real standouts there are plenty of names being thrown around with Tredwell, Riley, Panesar, Ansari, Borthwick and even 18 year Mason Crane being touted as possibilities. (I think I will politely pass over Corporals suggestion of Gary Keedy )

In short we very much need a third spinner to throw their hand up. Running through the options listed above:

Tredwell - He has displaced Riley from the Kent CC side and would offer a solid pair of hands if we wanted a more controlling option next to Rashid or Ali.

Riley - He has really struggled this season and has now not played for Kents first XI in 6 weeks. Rumours abound that his action was remodelled over the winter. I'm not sure how substantiated this however.

Panesar - Only just returned to the Essex side and is a suggestion of hope rather than expectation really. I'd love to believe he could put his recent issues behind him and find his old form as of all our spinners available he has the most pedigree, at his best, by a distance. I very much struggle to believe that he will however.

Ansari - A slow left armer who has been much improved with the ball this season. His returns are still more solid than spectacular with 39 wickets at 32.4 runs apiece in division 2. He is however a very good all round cricket who is rated highly by the England selectors and coaches. He bats anywhere in the order but vitally given our struggle for openers, and talk of Ali opening, he has opened the batting well for Surrey. A good bet for the squad in the UAE given he would offer versatility and another option at the top.

Borthwick - 116 overs bowled for 9 wickets at an average of 57 in CC cricket this season. It looks like he will need a change of county if he truly still wishes to be a spinner. He has batted very well from number 3 however with over 900 runs at an averge of 41.

Crane - Only two FC matches into his proffesional career and he's being touted for England selection. That probably sums up our spin problems as well as anything! He looks a real talent at he can turn the ball big and give it some air. We've been here with leg spinners before however.

Beyond this obvious problem there is also the question of opening batsmen and reserve batsmen, wicket keeper and seamers.

If Lyth remains we will still need a 3rd opening batsmen in the squad as reserve. If he goes then we could even need a couple. There are talks of Ali opening in the UAE where his struggles against the short ball shouldn't be exposed as brutally. Can Alex Hales find the consistency needed in test cricket? Has Nick Compton burnt his bridges? Daryl Mitchell and Rory Burns are also scoring strongly at the top of the order for their counties.

In the middle order James Taylor is coming back to form at a good time. Gary Ballance also won't be too far away I imagine. Steve Davies and Jason Roy are scoring strongly in division 2. Sam Hain is a huge talent but it is probably a winter too soon.

With question marks over Butler as a test batsmen and Bairstow as a wicket keeper, Chris Read hasn't chosen a bad season to average over 60 with the bat. If we wanted the option of an excellent gloveman for difficult keeping conditions in the UAE and also an experienced head for a tough winter then he wouldn't be a bad option in the short term.

Anderson, Broad, Wood and Finn, with Stokes supporting, are now obviously going to tour. However with Anderson injured, Broad prone to fatigue and Wood prone to injury we will need the right players in the squad behind them. In South Africa especially this will be vital.

Plunkett and Footit being called up as cover for Anderson must have a foot in the door. Chris Woakes is back playing as well. In division 1 Craig Overton, Jack Brooks, Jack Shantry, James Harris and the ever impressive Chris Rushworth are having strong seasons.

Guaranteed for the UAE tour squad - Cook, Bell, Root, Bairstow, Butler, Stokes, Ali, Rashid, Broad, Wood, Anderson, Finn.

By my logic that leaves 2 openers, a middle order batsmen, a 3rd spinner and at least one more seamer still required.

If Ali (and possibly Ansari) are considered as openers then probably only one spot up for grabs at the top of the order but possibly another middle order batsmen in with a shot?

LondonTiger wrote:And Bell is not retiring

Phew - his excellent batting in the UAE will be badly needed!

Pity for Taylor though, its about the one place hes tall enough for

Bell has half-retired - I call a draw!

Even though Bell has quit ODIs, you can guarantee there is someone out there somewhere (probably an England selector) who reckons he deserves another go at the top of the order!

Bell retiring from ODIs is a bit like me retiring from them. We both had precisely zero chance of playing a future ODI!

VTR wrote:Bell retiring from ODIs is a bit like me retiring from them. We both had precisely zero chance of playing a future ODI!

I wouldn't exactly class Bell retiring from ODIs as falling into the Jason Ratcliffe class of retirement announcement.   (#ancientjoke)

I had to look that up!

Seriously though Bell was never going to play again so no idea what his retirement is all about

Well, Darren Gough has not formally retired from ODIs.

Hes centrally contracted so has to formally retire, a d have that accepted by the ECB, or stay available for each format. Ask KP about it.

Selectors meeting today to choose UAE squads apparently.

So : has the recently completed ODI series changed anyone's opinion as to who should go to UAE ?

Reckon Rashid did well enough to further solidify his chances - which were pretty good anyway if only for lack of alternatives. Won't deny I harbour some fear he could leak runs at a rate of knots ; but he showed enough variety and willingness to attack to suggest he might well take wickets against Pakistan. Which will be needed! Can bat too.
Taylor I think might be the big winner from these games. Different format , sure ; but he looked pretty sound against some handy bowling , and could fill a role at three or six. The fact they had him running the team when Morgan went down indicates a favourable view of his thinking and leadership qualities.
Hales by contrast went backwards ; which may not be entirely fair given the different type of game. But he clearly lost confidence , and fluency , as the series proceeded , apart from being cleaned up early once or twice. I feel the way he found himself scratching around may count against him more than the actual low scores. I would still like to see him tried in the long game ; and perhaps the selectors will take the view that a few poor ODIs shouldn't negate a very strong first class season ; but I think it is fair to say he'd have been better off if he'd managed to miss these matches altogether...
Of the pace bowlers , I am not sure anyone did enough to change the apparent pecking order , with Finn and Wood favoured to accompany Anderson and Broad. Plunkett did show a bit with ball and bat , as did Willey ; but I wouldn't expect either to muscle in , unless there are concerns over Wood's durability for the tough conditions they are likely to encounter?
The rest I think are either ODI specialists who won't be considered or pretty set in the Test squad.

I see Australia have produced at least one surprise selection for Bangladesh ; wonder if England will have a rabbit to produce from their hat ? Announced tomorrow , I believe...

alfie wrote:So : has the recently completed ODI series changed anyone's opinion as to who should go to UAE ?

Reckon Rashid did well enough to further solidify his chances - which were pretty good anyway if only for lack of alternatives. Won't deny I harbour some fear he could leak runs at a rate of knots ; but he showed enough variety and willingness to attack to suggest he might well take wickets against Pakistan.  Which will be needed! Can bat too.
Taylor I think might be the big winner from these games.  Different format , sure ; but he looked pretty sound against some handy bowling , and could fill a role at three or six.  The fact they had him running the team when Morgan went down indicates a favourable view of his thinking and leadership qualities.
Hales by contrast went backwards ; which may not be entirely fair given the different type of game.  But he clearly lost confidence , and fluency , as the series proceeded , apart from being cleaned up early once or twice.  I feel the way he found himself scratching around may count against him more than the actual low scores.  I would still like to see him tried in the long game ; and perhaps the selectors will take the view that a few poor ODIs shouldn't negate a very strong first class season ; but I think it is fair to say he'd have been better off if he'd managed to miss these matches altogether...
Of the pace bowlers , I am not sure anyone did enough to change the apparent pecking order , with Finn and Wood favoured to accompany Anderson and Broad.  Plunkett did show a bit with ball and bat , as did Willey ; but I wouldn't expect either to muscle in , unless there are concerns over Wood's durability for the tough conditions they are likely to encounter?
The rest I think are either ODI specialists who won't be considered or pretty set in the Test squad.  

I see Australia have produced at least one surprise selection for Bangladesh ; wonder if England will have a rabbit to produce from their hat ?  Announced tomorrow , I believe...

Alfie - restating my prejudice upfront, I wasn't sold on Rashid to begin with and didn't see enough in these ODI series to change my mind. Too many bad balls - which are more likely to get wickets in ODIs than Tests - and not enough good ones for me. Admittedly always difficult for any leg spinner; I just don't view Rashid as having sufficiently mastered his art.

I'm not claiming he miserably failed his audition, just that he failed to pass it with high enough marks. That said, those who always wanted him to get a taste of Test cricket would be justified in claiming he did okay and it would be understandable for them to feel he now deserves his chance. I guess what all this amounts to is that he didn't alter people's perceptions. As I'm not a selector and the real ones seem fairly interested in Rashid, his showing this summer should be sufficient to get him on the plane to the UAE.

My spin choices to travel would have been Moeen (his record is quite good but he's still a bit of a wild card and one is enough), Tredwell (a vote for dependability although I recognise he's off the selectors' radar and so won't go to the UAE) and Ansari (an intelligent cricketer who has come on massively with the ball this season and is also a decent bat - in the runs today which won't do him any harm; reckon he will get the nod).

I understand the selectors are meeting today and will announce the squad tomorrow.

Restating my bias as well, I have seen Rashid play a lot and have also seen he is far better at the long form than limited overs. In limited overs he is trying to mix things up a bit more and thus bowls more bad balls than he does in longer form. however these tend to get wickets with some frequency as the batsmen is not set and the ball still does something unexpected (the full tossess dip a lot and hit low on the bat, the halof tack flippers do not bounce).

In first class cricket he tends to bowl much more consistently in terms of line and length, just varying the spin and whether it is a googly of a regular leg break. He was very good in the matches Yorkshire played in the UAE in spring.

Unlike Surrey fans I have not seen Ansari play, so can only go on his numbers, which while they have improved have not been great. It is trherefore natural I would have suspicions until I see him play. Sadly unless he gets 10 wickets and a century in his first game for England he is unable to live up to the perpetual hype on these boards.


We all have our prejudices.

Tiger - I am surprised and disappointed that you appear to regard my comments about Ansari as ''perpetual hype''. By their nature, they were certainly supportive but also intended to be reasoned and fair.

You do come across (to me anyway) of accusing Surrey supporters of being overly supportive of their own team's players. I feel research would demonstrate that we are actually pretty tough on our own.

Actually it is the repeated assertions from Olly and his #AnsariforEngland stuff.

Hype is not necessarily a bad thing, overhyped is.

Sorry you think i am overcritical of you surrey guys supporting your players. I tend to stay away from the Surrey threads as i am afraid the constant in jokes and bizarre nicknames do tend to exclude outsiders. Thus I only see the things in more general threads. Most of the posters seem to be Surrey fans so it is natural that there is a lot of pushing of your players.

Anyway you do not need to worry about my views any more as i shall fade back into the shadows.

I think LT makes some good points there. Ansari seems to be wildly overrated on the Surrey threads, his numbers are much improved but nothing amazing and in division 2. Lions tour for me to develop his game. Let's see tomorrow anyway

People keep saying Rashid would give away runs and he takes wickets of bad balls, and the interesting thing is that their alternative is Moeen!
Anyways Nick Compton meeting the England coach....... Will they Trust him?

msp83 wrote:People keep saying Rashid would give away runs and he takes wickets of bad balls, and the interesting thing is that their alternative is Moeen!

Msp - didn't you see my reservation about Moeen in my earlier post (together with my further reservation about them being together)? You, Tiger and VTR appear to be responding to my post not on the basis of what I actually said but on what others have apparently posted in the past.

VTR - if we take 3 spinners to the UAE (and that seems at least a possibility), who is your third choice if not Ansari?
Btw, my understanding is that there is no Lions tour this winter.

#ansariforengland will silence all you haterz just you wait...Moeen, Adil and Zaf should be the three spinners on the tour

If there's no Lions tour then perhaps take Ansari as the third spinner then. It's still a development opportunity I suppose. Tredwell would be my third choice as a steady hand assuming Moeen and Rashid are two of the three

I am hardly a hater, wanting someone on the lions tour means they are being earmarked as a future England player!

Guildford my post was more of a general response....... I know you have been championing Tredwell's case.......
BTW, between Ali and Rashid, who would you opt for?

VTR wrote:If there's no Lions tour then perhaps take Ansari as the third spinner then. It's still a development opportunity I suppose. Tredwell would be my third choice as a steady hand assuming Moeen and Rashid are two of the three

I am hardly a hater, wanting someone on the lions tour means they are being earmarked as a future England player!

VTR - I know you are not. Nor do I consider myself a promoter of ''perpetual hype'' [Tiger's words which rattled my cage earlier!].

Anyway, back to the more important stuff. It's partly with it being a development opportunity and there apparently being no Lions tour that I would put Ansari on the UAE tour - hopefully beneficial for him and England going forward.

I too remain a supporter of Tredwell and feel not enough value has been given to his tight control by the selectors. However, I feel his ship has now sailed.

msp83 wrote:Guildford my post was more of a general response....... I know you have been championing Tredwell's case.......
BTW, between Ali and Rashid, who would you opt for?

Msp - fair enough.

Between Ali and Rashid, I would opt for Ali. That doesn't mean I don't have concerns about Ali but generally he's somehow done the business. Furthermore, no leg spinner has ever proved his worth for England in my lifetime.

Guildford, everything has to have a first, Hopefully Rashid will be a first for you, a reasonable English international legspinner!

Well we will all see tomorrow, quite excited about this squad announcement as there are several places up for grabs!

There will be Lions squads announced:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/story/920581.html

Tiger - thank you for those Lions details. I note your attachment was hot off the cricinfo press. I't's been very difficult to find out anything about what - if anything - the Lions were going to be up to this winter. As J Dizzle posted recently, the ECB website was noticeably unhelpful.

Will Macpherson on cricinfo speculating on the lions squad:

"The most high-profile names in the squad are likely to be Gary Ballance, whose pair for Yorkshire against Middlesex has come at a terrible time, and Sussex's Chris Jordan. Tymal Mills, the left-arm fast bowler, is likely to take a place in the squad for the T20 leg of the tour, while Lancashire's left-arm spinner Simon Kerrigan will return to the national set-up and Essex's Tom Westley - who impressed with a century against the touring Australians this year - is set to be called up for the first time."

msp83 wrote:Guildford, everything has to have a first, Hopefully Rashid will be a first for you, a reasonable English international legspinner!

Bob Barber was not too bad!

Unlike the Surrey fans , I have not seen Ansari play at all ; so can't really offer an opinion. However I note that he seems to be improving as a bowler , and , while he hasn't produced outstanding figures with the bat , he also seems to offer a solid presence at the crease at the top of the order...perhaps his rather "old fashioned" scoring rate is at odds with the modern way ; but given the poor record of recent English openers in even seeing off the new ball I wonder if he might be worth a shot in UAE in the opening role ? Some players come into Tests with modest County records and transcend them in the International game...but perhaps I am getting carried away with all the "hype"

Seriously though : Ten of the Oval Test team , plus Anderson and Rashid are as good as on the plane. Remains just two spare bats (Taylor + ...Hales ?) another spinner and perhaps one more spot. So if Ansari provided the spin option as well as an extra batsman he might be seen as a fairly handy pick.

I'm sure Olly will agree

Can we accept that Hales should be nowhere near the test side?

Compton is making more and more sense.

Rashid has always had a better record in first class than he has in limited overs. Its tough to judge him solely on the results of some BS ODIs against the best two sides in the world on seamer friendly pitches.
There isnt a cat in hells chance that Ansari will tour ahead of him, even alonsgside is a push.

So there is a Lions tour! As guildford mentions, it is hard to find info and pretty shocking that the ECB site listed no future Lions fixtures as at yesterday (I haven't checked today)

Ansari would go with the Lions for me personally - give him some game time even if not in his preferred format. I feel if he goes with the Test squad he will mainly be asking Rashid to pass on his experience of drinks carrying

I see that the BBC website has fallen under Olly's spell

"Surrey all-rounder Zafar Ansari is tipped to be a third spinner behind Worcestershire's Moeen Ali and Adil Rashid of Yorkshire."

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:I see that the BBC website has fallen under Olly's spell

"Surrey all-rounder Zafar Ansari is tipped to be a third spinner behind Worcestershire's Moeen Ali and Adil Rashid of Yorkshire."

With Tredwell and his type of bowling apparently out of fashion, I'm struggling to see who could beat Ansari to the plane steps IF we take three spinners. Any other views?

Taylor, Hales and #ansariforengland all expected to be included in the squad

Not a big fan of Ansari getting called up. He's only scored runs in division 2.

NickisBHAFC wrote:Not a big fan of Ansari getting called up. He's only scored runs in division 2.

Because of course what division you play in decides how good a player you are.....

Olly wrote:Taylor, Hales and #ansariforengland all expected to be included in the squad

Being confirmed now on BBC website.

For those with access to Sky, discussion on Ansari coming up. No comment from me as to whether it will contain ''hype''.

Lovely interview by Sky's David Fulton (like him) with Zafar Ansari.

Ansari acknowledged that it would be difficult to make the eleven but stressed he would do everything possible including ''running on with the drinks on with as much energy as possible''. That reminded me a lot of the positive posts from the much missed Mike Selig about Brett Lee; Lee resolved that he would be the best 12th man possible for Australia which could only help his chances of actual selection.

Fulton also put to Ansari that his 99 yesterday against Lancs and Jimmy Anderson would mean the England paceman would ''be talking up his prowess as an opening batsman''. Ansari showed good humour in his reply: ''Given the way he was talking to me out there, I'm not sure!''.

I've met Ansari a couple of times. Very taken with him. Intelligent guy who listens. That may just have a small bearing. I think he'll take things in and learn on tour whatever happens.

Finally, I know he's rattled some posters here but credit to Olly for correctly calling Ansari's elevation before this season even started.

Squad in fact just as I suggested a few posts above ... with the 16th player being Plunkett as an extra fast bowler. Really can't complain about that lot. There was talk of Compton but it seems to have been a smokescreen - and to be honest I'd have been surprised if he'd been recalled now.

Plenty of flexibility with several potential openers , spare middle order bats , three (different) spinners , all of whom can bat... Still going to be a tough assignment but I'm happy with the selection.

Suppose , apart from Compton , only Ballance can really be disappointed - and I think he may well be better off going with the Lions for now. Woakes might have been considered , basically as injury cover for Stokes ; but again I don't think the conditions they are going to encounter would have offered him much.


Hope you get your agent's fee from Ansari , Olly

guildfordbat wrote:Lovely interview by Sky's David Fulton (like him) with Zafar Ansari.

Ansari acknowledged that it would be difficult to make the eleven but stressed he would do everything possible including ''running on with the drinks on with as much energy as possible''. That reminded me a lot of the positive posts from the much missed Mike Selig about Brett Lee; Lee resolved that he would be the best 12th man possible for Australia which could only help his chances of actual selection.

Fulton also put to Ansari that his 99 yesterday against Lancs and Jimmy Anderson would mean the England paceman would ''be talking up his prowess as an opening batsman''. Ansari showed good humour in his reply: ''Given the way he was talking to me out there, I'm not sure!''.

I've met Ansari a couple of times. Very taken with him. Intelligent guy who listens. That may just have a small bearing. I think he'll take things in and learn on tour whatever happens.

Finally, I know he's rattled some posters here but credit to Olly for correctly calling Ansari's elevation before this season even started.

I'd better see if I can access Sky for the interview , guildford. Fellow seems to have a sense of humour ; always a handy thing for a bowler !

Incidentally , what has happened to Mike ? Haven't seen him on here for ages.

Good to see junk bilateral limited over games finish and test cricket atmosphere building up again.

I see 3 new selections and have following thoughts...

(1) Zafar Ansari of Asian descent appears another Moeen Ali like.....useful batsman who can open the batting also and almost good enough to be a specialist spinner but not quite.....and seemingly in good form in county circuit.

Eng's strength is depth of batting...which comes from having bowlers who can bat.....and Ansari will allow them playing 2 spinners and 5 bowlers without weakening their batting.

I am surprised why Adil Rashid who seemingly bowled well in ODIs and can bat well too wasn't picked given that he has proven international temperament.

Having questioned that....I must clarify I have seen neither Rashid nor Ansari play....but Eng is indeed blessed with plenty of bowling allrounders.


(2) James Taylor

why not earlier?
He is a very good organized batsman ....impressed every time I have seen him.
He will grow into anotehr Root like solid contributor.....i only wonder, why he was kept out for so long.

(3) Opener Hales
I have seen him and he won't cut it......on surface he might appear like Warner/ Sehwag in his potential impact as an opener....he doesn't have the judicious shot selection of those two and will give it away too quickly.

Won't cut it as a test match opener.

I understood Compton was in consideration or maybe that's not right...Compton was in hope and he was in discussion with Bayliss, but that does not mean necessarily in selector's consideration.

Bad decision...one stemming from cut the nose to spite the face syndrome......"that we dumped him earlier and he spoke against us in the media , won't take him back at any cost"

from what I saw of him...he is a proper test match opener...both in technique and temperament.

Tough tour ahead for Eng and should they come back with even 2-1 from UAE should be deemed satisfactory

Rashid is also picked , KP_fan.

You are very definite about Hales ! And you may be right. he has frankly rather disappointed in the fifty over caper. But I for one am glad they still want to see him tackle the five day game ; still harbouring hopes. We will see.

Interesting squad, very hard to predict who will open alongside Cook with 3 or 4 options there

sorry I missed Adil Rashid...good variety in spin bowling all of whom can bat......

if they play 2 spinners , which they definitely should.....which of the seamers will sit out ?
Or in other words....who are the top 3 pick for seamers ?
Assuming all are fit......
Anderson and Broad are definitely the top two.
Is Stokes ( a far superior batsman) or Wood the first choice third seamer ?

Or are they going to play with 6 bowlers...opening with Ansari or Ali with the bat ?

VTR wrote:So there is a Lions tour! As guildford mentions, it is hard to find info and pretty shocking that the ECB site listed no future Lions fixtures as at yesterday (I haven't checked today)

VTR - we are not alone. Half an hour or so ago, Colville and Allott on Sky admitted they didn't know what the Lions are doing this winter and had to send out for info. Can't understand why it's been so kept under wraps.

guildfordbat wrote:Lovely interview by Sky's David Fulton (like him) with Zafar Ansari.

Ansari acknowledged that it would be difficult to make the eleven but stressed he would do everything possible including ''running on with the drinks on with as much energy as possible''. That reminded me a lot of the positive posts from the much missed Mike Selig about Brett Lee; Lee resolved that he would be the best 12th man possible for Australia which could only help his chances of actual selection.

Fulton also put to Ansari that his 99 yesterday against Lancs and Jimmy Anderson would mean the England paceman would ''be talking up his prowess as an opening batsman''. Ansari showed good humour in his reply: ''Given the way he was talking to me out there, I'm not sure!''.

I've met Ansari a couple of times. Very taken with him. Intelligent guy who listens. That may just have a small bearing. I think he'll take things in and learn on tour whatever happens.

Finally, I know he's rattled some posters here but credit to Olly for correctly calling Ansari's elevation before this season even started.

Some players have "it" Guildford - I dunno what "it" is, but Zaf has "it". Kid will go far.

Random note - has there ever been an England international who's first name began with a "Z"?

KP_fan wrote:sorry I missed Adil Rashid...good variety in spin bowling all of whom can bat......

if they play 2 spinners , which they definitely should.....which of the seamers will sit out ?
Or in other words....who are the top 3 pick for seamers ?
Assuming all are fit......
Anderson and Broad are definitely the top two.
Is Stokes ( a far superior batsman) or Wood the first choice third seamer ?

Or are they going to play with 6 bowlers...opening with Ansari or Ali with the bat ?

An aspect which hasn't been properly resolved at Surrey relates to where Ansari bats in the order. In many ways, he has the approach and patience of an old fashioned opener (see yesterday's cricinfo report on the Lancs v Surrey game). However, he has sometimes struggled in that position immediately following a lengthy bowling spell. Not surprising and probably why very few front line bowlers in the history of the game have opened the batting. I put this point earlier in the season to Alec Stewart at a Surrey members' forum meeting (it had already been made on this site by some of the Surrey supporters). Stewie responded along the lines, ''that's a good observation and we'll keep matters under review''. Since then, Ansari has at times dropped down to the middle order although he's mostly still opened.

For my own money, I think he could become a very good number 4 whilst maintaining a prominent role with the ball.

NickisBHAFC wrote:Not a big fan of Ansari getting called up. He's only scored runs in division 2.

Good point, Nick. Guess that rules out Alastair Cook, too.

(Health Warning: more Surreyphobic drivel from this iritating little WUM wannabe.)