Interview with Referee John Lacey

First topic message reminder :

Interview here which gives a bit of insight into life as a referee. Love the bit where he said in his first Pro12 match he says that Nigel Owens (his Assistant) tore into him at half time about the way he was reffing the breakdown. He is also the fastest ref!


'It's the closest buzz you can get to scoring a try for Munster'
An accidental referee, John Lacey has seen his stock rise all the way to the World Cup, says Brendan Fanning

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/its-the-closest-buzz-you-can-get-to-scoring-a-try-for-munster-31454340.html

Also for curiosity purposes.  Welsh regions are 6-4-8 when they have a Welsh referee.

That's a better home team referee winning ratio than the Irish provinces have!

Irish refs don't cheat/show extreme bias because they know the Welsh stats people would get at them. That's why the stats look okay on the Pro12 accounts.

But they still cheat/show extreme bias in their minds and are guilty as sin on that count to be honest

Ooh, and we could take a look at cards issued.

Irish referees have shown 9 yellow cards and 1 red card to Irish provinces.

Welsh referees have shown 8 yellow cards and 0 red card to Welsh regions.

So Irish referees are slightly ahead is sending 'their own' from the field also?

FFS Irish refs, whose side are you on?!

I think Munster should stop paying them based on bandwagon's new shocking research!

Who was the whistle-blower on this stuff...it's incendiary.  Head will roll in the IRFU

Marshes wrote:FFS Irish refs, whose side are you on?!

That's what I'm thinking. Talk about 'fair' play

Fanster wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:''do you want to check for foul play?' this wording makes the refs decision easy, no is 100% of the time the answer because foul play, like the try will not be penalised post ball out of play, as it doesn't effect either teams advantage or non advantage. The linesman couldve flagged for foul, or dangerous play at the time and didn't, he couldve said the word dangerous play in his question but didn't, this means he didn't feel there was dangerous play, or a trip (which is deemed dangerous play). '

10.4n doesn't fit with your view. Read that rule again, the trip can be penalised with a penalty even after the ball is out of play which is what you and Lacey seem not to grasp. Foul play is the over arching term for all of section 10 including dangerous play and misconduct (10.4).

Firsty, your comment regarding me clearly being a poor ref is poor form, sadly it devalues your character to insult my abilities because you can't seem to grasp whats going on. For this comment I now think less of you on an individual level.

RE this above...

10.4 n doesn't apply here, the ball was not deemed out of play, unless you can provide me with a link of video in which the whistle goes before the collision? I'm not saying 10.4 n has no merit, or fouls can't be committed after the ball goes out of play, I'm saying this doesn't apply here, as the ball was in play until the grounding. Your claiming this as your argument that Lacey didn't know a rule, what your doing is ignoring Laceys knowledge of the game, his exerience, and his ability becaue the comentator told you to, and well because England woohoo!

Your also still under the misinterpretation that there was a trip, please explain to me where Lacey, the linesman or TMO mentioned a trip or dangerou play?

There was a trip on Care. If we assume that n doesn't apply because the ball wasn't dead then it's a simple penalty to England and consideration for a yellow. Lacey clearly said after the replay and being prompted by Clancey and the 4th official that he didn't want to review as the ball was in touch. He himself was considering the ball dead and was under the impression (seemingly) that he couldn't award a pen. Poor mistake.

'IRFU Duped by their own Clowns' : Wales Online exclusive.

Right. One final curiosity stat for the pro12 last season.

Matches officiated b refs
Irish 51
Welsh 47
Italian 18
Scottish 16

Two observations out of that.

I didn't think the WRU and IRFU were so close in supplying referees for matches. I had the impression that far more matches were being officiated by Irish whistle blowers.

And I'm surprised that the Italians took charge of more games than the Scots during the season.

Pretty sure one of the Scot refs is actually Irish an all.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Fanster wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:''do you want to check for foul play?' this wording makes the refs decision easy, no is 100% of the time the answer because foul play, like the try will not be penalised post ball out of play, as it doesn't effect either teams advantage or non advantage. The linesman couldve flagged for foul, or dangerous play at the time and didn't, he couldve said the word dangerous play in his question but didn't, this means he didn't feel there was dangerous play, or a trip (which is deemed dangerous play). '

10.4n doesn't fit with your view. Read that rule again, the trip can be penalised with a penalty even after the ball is out of play which is what you and Lacey seem not to grasp. Foul play is the over arching term for all of section 10 including dangerous play and misconduct (10.4).

Firsty, your comment regarding me clearly being a poor ref is poor form, sadly it devalues your character to insult my abilities because you can't seem to grasp whats going on. For this comment I now think less of you on an individual level.

RE this above...

10.4 n doesn't apply here, the ball was not deemed out of play, unless you can provide me with a link of video in which the whistle goes before the collision? I'm not saying 10.4 n has no merit, or fouls can't be committed after the ball goes out of play, I'm saying this doesn't apply here, as the ball was in play until the grounding. Your claiming this as your argument that Lacey didn't know a rule, what your doing is ignoring Laceys knowledge of the game, his exerience, and his ability becaue the comentator told you to, and well because England woohoo!

Your also still under the misinterpretation that there was a trip, please explain to me where Lacey, the linesman or TMO mentioned a trip or dangerou play?

There was a trip on Care. If we assume that n doesn't apply because the ball wasn't dead then it's a simple penalty to England and consideration for a yellow. Lacey clearly said after the replay and being prompted by Clancey and the 4th official that he didn't want to review as the ball was in touch. He himself was considering the ball dead and was under the impression (seemingly) that he couldn't award a pen. Poor mistake.

Have to say I was surprised he didn't look at it. When watching it live I thought the player was taken out. On looking back I still think he was taken out. Even if Lacey believed that both the english player and the french player went to play the ball with their feet in an honest contest which the english player one by making contact with the ball first,the fact that french player then makes essentially a striking contact with his leg towards an opponent it should still have been assessed. If the ball was out, in which case the play was dead, then it could still be looked at. People have been penalised for plenty of off the ball stuff and time-off fracas in the past, this incident should have been no different in my opinion.

I did think he was light on Englands set piece, the scrum was especially poor considering it would be a point of pride for Rowntree.



On another item, that clearing a player by the neck was whistled at least three times that I could see over the weekend. Clark was the only time the card was shown. This piece of foul play might end up being the 'tip tackle' enforcement item for this coming world cup.

Fanster wrote:Firsty, your comment regarding me clearly being a poor ref is poor form, sadly it devalues your character to insult my abilities because you can't seem to grasp whats going on. For this comment I now think less of you on an individual level.

RE this above...

10.4 n doesn't apply here, the ball was not deemed out of play, unless you can provide me with a link of video in which the whistle goes before the collision? I'm not saying 10.4 n has no merit, or fouls can't be committed after the ball goes out of play, I'm saying this doesn't apply here, as the ball was in play until the grounding. Your claiming this as your argument that Lacey didn't know a rule, what your doing is ignoring Laceys knowledge of the game, his exerience, and his ability becaue the comentator told you to, and well because England woohoo!

Your also still under the misinterpretation that there was a trip, please explain to me where Lacey, the linesman or TMO mentioned a trip or dangerou play?

Fanster, I can understand why you would be upset at having your professional competence brought into question. However, you should read back through your own posts. The tone veers towards the patronising and supercilious.

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but are you arguing that the ref felt that an accidental trip was sufficiently minor as to not warrant punishment, given that no advantage accrued from the incident? If that is correct, could I ask you a hypothetical? Suppose that the ball hadn't been in touch. You mentioned that the trip would be foul, but not dangerous, play, not punishable under 10.4d. As a ref, under what law would you then have punished Spedding?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Ooh, and we could take a look at cards issued.

Irish referees have shown 9 yellow cards and 1 red card to Irish provinces.

Welsh referees have shown 8 yellow cards and 0 red card to Welsh regions.

So Irish referees are slightly ahead is sending 'their own' from the field also?

It's not the cards they have issued, it's the cards they haven't issued when they should have.

munkian wrote:Pretty sure one of the Scot refs is actually Irish an all.

Yes you are right, Neil Paterson the Northern Irish ref who comes under the SRU. He is allowed to ref Ulster games. But in his defence he is usually crap for everyone, not just teams playing Ulster.

LordDowlais wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Ooh, and we could take a look at cards issued.

Irish referees have shown 9 yellow cards and 1 red card to Irish provinces.

Welsh referees have shown 8 yellow cards and 0 red card to Welsh regions.

So Irish referees are slightly ahead is sending 'their own' from the field also?

It's not the cards they have issued, it's the cards they haven't issued when they should have.

funny LD that you didn't mention that stats run contrary to the argument earlier in the thread, a simple nod to that would have made it look less like you were now tying yourself in knots to justify your position

What position ? I am still in the players and coaches should respect the laws camp.

On page 2 of this thread where you were saying Irish teams have an advantage when playing under an Irish ref

The fact is that none of the stats can confirm or deny it.

You can't isolate the ref factor and the sample sizes wont be large enough to mean anything.

Marshes wrote:On page 2 of this thread where you were saying Irish teams have an advantage when playing under an Irish ref

Well yes they would, because Irish refs will ref the games in the Irish way. Irish refs typically let things go at the breakdown, an area where the Irish teams target, it's nothing sinister, it's just how it is, the Irish sides already know how the Irish refs will police a game as they are far more familiar with them.

Whatever way you slice it losing twice as many as you win under Irish refs is no advantage

LordDowlais wrote:

munkian wrote:Pretty sure one of the Scot refs is actually Irish an all.

Yes you are right, Neil Paterson the Northern Irish ref who comes under the SRU. He is allowed to ref Ulster games. But in his defence he is usually crap for everyone, not just teams playing Ulster.

That's the trouble with Wales, see?  No clearly identifiable 'regions' or 'Provinces' - given that the official ones are all smack bang in the South.   It's easy to pin pricque Irish ref allegiances - he comes from Wicklow, he's Leinster, from Cork, Munster.  Because of the bigger area, it's easy to plot tribal lines of loyalty.

So the Welsh lads - what would their natural affiliations be in Regional terms?  They gotta have them.  
And if they have them, what teams would they be secretly hankering for.  And if a preference was in their minds for one Welsh Region over another.... well, let's just say I'm sure the entire Welsh reffing panel has reffed their preferred Region on more than one occasion over the years.

Will we go back and find out if there is any sequence of results that might make the link obvious?

Marshes wrote:Whatever way you slice it losing twice as many as you win under Irish refs is no advantage

It is if you'd otherwise lose them all.

Scottrf wrote:

Marshes wrote:Whatever way you slice it losing twice as many as you win under Irish refs is no advantage

It is if you'd otherwise lose them all.

OR the 8 losses were the western poor folk Connacht and the big three made sure the ref got his brown envelope for their games

LordDowlais wrote:

Marshes wrote:On page 2 of this thread where you were saying Irish teams have an advantage when playing under an Irish ref

Well yes they would, because Irish refs will ref the games in the Irish way. Irish refs typically let things go at the breakdown, an area where the Irish teams target, it's nothing sinister, it's just how it is, the Irish sides already know how the Irish refs will police a game as they are far more familiar with them.

It seems to be that the Irish Provinces put a lot of effort into understanding what the refs are looking for (i.e., Lacey refs their contact sessions). Why don't you lot get top refs like Nigel Owens to educate your teams on the reffing laws in a similar way?

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Marshes wrote:On page 2 of this thread where you were saying Irish teams have an advantage when playing under an Irish ref

Well yes they would, because Irish refs will ref the games in the Irish way. Irish refs typically let things go at the breakdown, an area where the Irish teams target, it's nothing sinister, it's just how it is, the Irish sides already know how the Irish refs will police a game as they are far more familiar with them.

It seems to be that the Irish Provinces put a lot of effort into understanding what the refs are looking for (i.e., Lacey refs their contact sessions). Why don't you lot get top refs like Nigel Owens to educate your teams on the reffing laws in a similar way?

Are you saying they don't?

Are we saying no Welsh referee ever helped out Regions understand the laws...those ever changing laws.....

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Marshes wrote:On page 2 of this thread where you were saying Irish teams have an advantage when playing under an Irish ref

Well yes they would, because Irish refs will ref the games in the Irish way. Irish refs typically let things go at the breakdown, an area where the Irish teams target, it's nothing sinister, it's just how it is, the Irish sides already know how the Irish refs will police a game as they are far more familiar with them.

It seems to be that the Irish Provinces put a lot of effort into understanding what the refs are looking for (i.e., Lacey refs their contact sessions). Why don't you lot get top refs like Nigel Owens to educate your teams on the reffing laws in a similar way?

Are you saying they don't?

Are we saying no Welsh referee ever helped out Regions understand the laws...those ever changing laws.....

Are the regions prepared to pay Nigel Owens to come in and ref their training sessions (as Munster do with John Lacey)? I bet Joe Schmidt will have Lacey in with the Ireland squad as well because he will know exactly what the refs will be clamping down on for the rugby world cup.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Marshes wrote:On page 2 of this thread where you were saying Irish teams have an advantage when playing under an Irish ref

Well yes they would, because Irish refs will ref the games in the Irish way. Irish refs typically let things go at the breakdown, an area where the Irish teams target, it's nothing sinister, it's just how it is, the Irish sides already know how the Irish refs will police a game as they are far more familiar with them.

It seems to be that the Irish Provinces put a lot of effort into understanding what the refs are looking for (i.e., Lacey refs their contact sessions). Why don't you lot get top refs like Nigel Owens to educate your teams on the reffing laws in a similar way?

Are you saying they don't?

Are we saying no Welsh referee ever helped out Regions understand the laws...those ever changing laws.....

Are the regions prepared to pay Nigel Owens to come in and ref their training sessions (as Munster do with John Lacey)? I bet Joe Schmidt will have Lacey in with the Ireland squad as well because he will know exactly what the refs will be clamping down on for the rugby world cup.

Can see that working out well.........."what do you mean your binning me for tripping him when the ball was dead? Our ref said its ok!!!"

The Welsh refs ref the Welsh way and the Welsh player know what to expect cos they're Welsh.

The Scottish refs ref the Welsh way and the Welsh player know what to expect cos they're Welsh.

The Italian refs ref the Welsh way and the Welsh player know what to expect cos they're Welsh.

The Irish refs ref the Irish way and the Welsh players know what to expect cos they've complained about it so many times.

Sin é wrote:Are the regions prepared to pay Nigel Owens to come in and ref their training sessions (as Munster do with John Lacey)?

Munster pay John Lacey ? Or do the Munster branch pay John Lacey ? Either way, there is a conflict of interest there and John Lacey is being compromised. A ref that is training week in week out and getting payed by that team in a league he is supposed to be officiating in does not sit well with me.

May as well count Nigel O'Wens as Irish.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munster pay John Lacey ? Or do the Munster branch pay John Lacey ? Either way, there is a conflict of interest there and John Lacey is being compromised. A ref that is training week in week out and getting payed by that team in a league he is supposed to be officiating in does not sit well with me.

The IRFU pay him don't they? The same organisation that pays many of the players he referees.

According to Sin e, Munster are paying John Lacey for reffing their training sessions each week, surely he should not be taking any sort of payment off one of the clubs in a league that he officiates in ?

Que the hordes of Irish jumping on this now and telling me I am talking bull. But I am being serious, referees should not be interacting with teams on a weekly basis and getting paid by teams in the same league they are supposed to be impartial in. Or am I missing something ?

LordDowlais wrote:Accirding to Sin e, Munster are paying John Lacey for reffing their training sessions each week, surely he should not be taking any sort of payment off one of the clubs in a league that he officiates in ?

Que the hordes of Irish jumping on this now and telling me I am talking bull. But I am being serious, referees should not be interacting with teams on a weekly basis and getting paid by teams in the same league they are supposed to be impartial in. Or am I missing something ?

He definitely shouldn't be spouting his pro Munster allegiances in public. What happens when he awards a last minute penalty to knock Ospreys out of the play ofs and send Munster through?

As usual, the Irish won't see anythign wrong with it though, cos der boys dorn't doo notn wrong new doo dey?

LordDowlais wrote:

munkian wrote:Pretty sure one of the Scot refs is actually Irish an all.

Yes you are right, Neil Paterson the Northern Irish ref who comes under the SRU. He is allowed to ref Ulster games. But in his defence he is usually crap for everyone, not just teams playing Ulster.

Paterson shouldn't be allowed to ref Ulster.

That said the Welsh really have a pretty poor grasp of the breakdown and contact area compared to Ireland, in my experience - it's an area that really isn't emphasized at grassroots to the extent it is in Ireland - probably due to the RL influence and the fixation on the Welsh wizardry style of play from the 70's.

Therefore I think a lot of Welsh fans,players and likely Refs don't have a great understanding or appreciation of the role of the ruck in Rugby Union - the way it is in some other countries like Ireland and NZ. I think the same is true of England to a lesser extent, caused by the influx of RL coaches post professionalism.

Rucking and the breakdown is becoming a lost art in a lot of countries but thankfully Ireland, heavily influence by kiwis, really understand how to use this to their advantage.

Wales use a lot of other RL influenced skulduggery though and are clearly coached to break the offside line in defense and also bend the rules in attack using decoy screen runners bordering on obstruction and a lot of refs don't pick up on this.

rodders wrote:

That said the Welsh really have a pretty poor grasp of the breakdown and contact area compared to Ireland, in my experience - it's an area that really isn't emphasized at grassroots to the extent it is in Ireland - probably due to the RL influence and the fixation on the Welsh wizardry style of play from the 70's.

Therefore I think a lot of Welsh fans,players and likely Refs don't have a great understanding or appreciation of the role of the ruck in Rugby Union - the way it is in some other countries like Ireland and NZ. .

^ The single funniest trolling post I have ever read on this forum. ^

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

Fanster wrote:Firsty, your comment regarding me clearly being a poor ref is poor form, sadly it devalues your character to insult my abilities because you can't seem to grasp whats going on. For this comment I now think less of you on an individual level.

RE this above...

10.4 n doesn't apply here, the ball was not deemed out of play, unless you can provide me with a link of video in which the whistle goes before the collision? I'm not saying 10.4 n has no merit, or fouls can't be committed after the ball goes out of play, I'm saying this doesn't apply here, as the ball was in play until the grounding. Your claiming this as your argument that Lacey didn't know a rule, what your doing is ignoring Laceys knowledge of the game, his exerience, and his ability becaue the comentator told you to, and well because England woohoo!

Your also still under the misinterpretation that there was a trip, please explain to me where Lacey, the linesman or TMO mentioned a trip or dangerou play?

Fanster, I can understand why you would be upset at having your professional competence brought into question. However, you should read back through your own posts. The tone veers towards the patronising and supercilious.

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but are you arguing that the ref felt that an accidental trip was sufficiently minor as to not warrant punishment, given that no advantage accrued from the incident? If that is correct, could I ask you a hypothetical? Suppose that the ball hadn't been in touch. You mentioned that the trip would be foul, but not dangerous, play, not punishable under 10.4d. As a ref, under what law would you then have punished Spedding?

My debate probably hasn't come across well, but I have tried patience with 7.5 but he is determined not to respond to a single point I make because England, he insists there is a trip when the referee's actions say there was not, and I agree it's one of those decisions that could go either way as foul or not.

You yourself are presuming that the incident is a trip, but I see it as an accidental collision, between 2 players looking to kick the ball, one toward goal the other toward touch. So the trip doesn't exist, it's a 50/50 collision that Lacey saw directly in front of him. 10. 4. d is the trip law isn't it? Why would it apply when the ref waved play on to the incident, the linesman never flagged for foul or dangerous play, and after the grounding neither the ref or linesmane refered the incident to the TMO. It was only brought up by both the linesman and TMO after play returned to the lineout, and neither made a case for referal, they asked a question to which Lacey responded no. His words 'the ball's in touch' could mean either the ball was in touch before the incident which was reviewed live or the balls in touch now for a lineout. Because the crowd boo'd, and the comentators questioned Laceys ability does not make anyone privvy to any more information.

As a ref in that game in that situation I wouldn't have punnished Spedding, because it was a collision and not a trip. When i was referring to foul play and ball being out of play I was refering specifically to the wording used by both the linesman and TMO, they could have flagged the incident live, they didn't, they could have mentioned it after grounding, when they mentioned the ball out of play, and grounding, but they mentioned it after replay which makes everything look worse, and after the crowd and players made an issue of it. When in that situation you have to go with your initial instinct, it's the only way, otherwise the crowd will sway every decision you make. Had the Linesman or TMO wanted to flag up the incident they would have either flagged it live, mentioned it at the earliest possible chance, or used the word dangerous, and not foul, forcing the ref to take a look, they did none of those things, and therefore as a team made the correct decision, swiftly and moved the game on without issue, what more could you possibly ask?

The refs actions didn't consider the trip as he thought because the ball went out he couldn't. That's what you seem not to want to think about.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

That said the Welsh really have a pretty poor grasp of the breakdown and contact area compared to Ireland, in my experience - it's an area that really isn't emphasized at grassroots to the extent it is in Ireland - probably due to the RL influence and the fixation on the Welsh wizardry style of play from the 70's.

Therefore I think a lot of Welsh fans,players and likely Refs don't have a great understanding or appreciation of the role of the ruck in Rugby Union - the way it is in some other countries like Ireland and NZ. .

^ The single funniest trolling post I have ever read on this forum. ^

Maybe but in my anecdotal experience it is true. Most of the players I knew in Wales who played relatively high level and very good players - 1st team for decent clubs and under age representative really had very poor contact skills -body angles in contact, ball presentation and rucking -all bread and butter stuff in Ireland that are drilled into schoolboys.

Balls skills are higher and generally better athletes due to the gym culture(although a bit on the lazy, soft side) but there are definitely a big skills gap at all levels at post tackle contact skills and too much RL influence there imo.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact Lacey confirmed to Wood that he would have a look at the trip as well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There was a trip on Care. If we assume that n doesn't apply because the ball wasn't dead then it's a simple penalty to England and consideration for a yellow. Lacey clearly said after the replay and being prompted by Clancey and the 4th official that he didn't want to review as the ball was in touch. He himself was considering the ball dead and was under the impression (seemingly) that he couldn't award a pen. Poor mistake.

Firstly there wasn't, it's official, no trip was given, noone mentioned a trip, noone mentioned foul play! Thats a fact, no why do you keep trying to go on the assumption that Care was tripped when the record books, the refereeing team in it's entirity and numerous other people all state there was not?

What you see as a trip you have to view as an incident or collision, otherwise you can never get over your own bias, lets talk about the incident in question, not what your trying to force as a trip!

If we assume that doesn't apply because the ball wasn't dead? So many negatives, the incident doesn't count because the ball was live?

Lacey was never prompted, again your making the mistake of thinking you know what they were trying to do, they had 3 opportunities to bring foul or dangerous play to the refs attention, and decided not to, Clancy clarified the 2 issues to look at were ball out of play and grounding, after the initial grounding. He only asked the question after returning to the lineout and after the boo's and replays made the incident look worse, refs cannot allow themselves to be swayed by crowds! Also the question asked was a simple question designed to cover angles, Clancy could've used the words dangerous play and Lacey would have been forced to rewatch the replay, dangerous is a trigger word within ref teams!

If your just honest with yourself for 1 second, question the incident as a bystander, take emotion of we woz robbed out of it you will see the decision was correct, the play moved on swiftly, and there was no big issue! I suspect you've been caught up in the trend of the media comentators appeasing home fans as much as possible even if it means trying to discredit a ref, or the ref proffession, which Moore loves to do!

No one mentioned foul play bar Wood asking Lacey which he confirmed he'd look at, Clancey who prompted Lacey and the 4th official as he prompted again. You forget about Wood asking or not know?

Lacey just made a mistake he thought as the ball went dead that was the end and it was a lienout. If refs don't realise that foul play is an underarching term which covers dangerous play, again more education to the ref is needed. I've never said we woz robbed, we won, I'm pointing out it's surprising that 2 big mistakes of not actually knowing the rules have happened recently, we can argue over interpretation but not knowing the laws is bad.

rodders wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

rodders wrote:

That said the Welsh really have a pretty poor grasp of the breakdown and contact area compared to Ireland, in my experience - it's an area that really isn't emphasized at grassroots to the extent it is in Ireland - probably due to the RL influence and the fixation on the Welsh wizardry style of play from the 70's.

Therefore I think a lot of Welsh fans,players and likely Refs don't have a great understanding or appreciation of the role of the ruck in Rugby Union - the way it is in some other countries like Ireland and NZ. .

^ The single funniest trolling post I have ever read on this forum. ^

Maybe but in my anecdotal experience it is true. Most of the players I knew in Wales who played relatively high level and very good players - 1st team for decent clubs and under age representative really had very poor contact skills  -body angles in contact, ball presentation and rucking  -all bread and butter stuff in Ireland that are drilled into schoolboys.

Balls skills are higher and generally better athletes due to the gym culture(although a bit on the lazy, soft side) but there are definitely a big skills gap at all levels at post tackle contact skills and too much RL influence there imo.

stop it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No one mentioned foul play bar Wood asking Lacey which he confirmed he'd look at, Clancey who prompted Lacey and the 4th official as he prompted again. You forget about Wood asking or not know?

Lacey just made a mistake he thought as the ball went dead that was the end and it was a lienout. If refs don't realise that foul play is an underarching term which covers dangerous play, again more education to the ref is needed. I've never said we woz robbed, we won, I'm pointing out it's surprising that 2 big mistakes of not actually knowing the rules have happened recently, we can argue over interpretation but not knowing the laws is bad.

Wood barely got within 5m and said 2/3 words before Lacey told him he was checking and ushered him away, referee's do not listen to players who approach them when they have a difficult decision to make, take POC and BOD a few years ago hounding the referee team regarding the wrong ball incident v Wales, the referee team made the mistake of allowing them to stay within ear shot, but certainly didn't take a word of theirs into consideration!!! And Wood doesn't make the decisions, why would his opinion mean anything, it would be the same as Spedding saying Care dived, he would be ushered away and told it was being looked at, don't you think?

You keep saying Clancy and the TMO 'prompted' Lacey, but asking a question a full minute after the decision is made isn't prompting, a flag out immediatly after the incident is prompting, mentioning foul play when in the dead ball zone is prompting, returning to the touch line post decision, and reacting to a booing crowd is covering your back, which Lacey promptly discarded, and correctly so in my opinion!

A prompts exist in refereeing teams, they exist within trigger words such as 'dangerous', which was not used by either, the question was regarding wether Lacey wanted to look at a dramatic tumble, which he did not.

Again, from the comfort of your armchair you are criticising a professional referee, who works extremely hard at what he does, because you have a vested interest in the team that didn't get a decision, you wouldn't sit next to a mechanic in your armchair and tell him he was replacing the track rods wrong would you? You are adament you have more knowledge of this guys career because you view an incident one way and the professional does not agree with you, even myself as a reasonably experienced ref is trying to explain how it works, but your happy with just reiterating Moores words because England!

I've explained to you how and why interpretation does not exist, how ref teams work with each other, and what the differences are between terms, and incident, but you insist you are better, where does this arrogance come from?

If the captain asks the ref a question and the ref confirms he's looking at it fair enough in my view.

The ref was prompted and made a mistake in thinking that the ball is dead so he couldn't even consider the pen. He was asked to look at foul play. Even though you appeared to suggest this doesn't include dangerous play and misconduct earlier it does. I'm cricising refs who clearly don't know the rules or forgot in the heat of the moment; shouldn't happen for me. Why do you keep mentioning Moore?

The ref forgot rule 10.4n; simple.

This is a question for No 7&1/2.

Hi, I know you are currently in a debate with Fanster, but as a rugby fan who can be seen as impartial in this debate when it comes to the Pro12, what do yo make of the other discussion that is going on here ? Do you think a ref should be as comfy with any team in the league he officiates and also except payments from said team ?

How would you feel if Wayne Barnes trained with Leicester or Saracens every week and got paid by them for doing it ? Do you think that would affect the integrity of the Aviva ?

I just want an opinion off somebody who is also on this debate but does not have a vested interest in the Pro12. Cheers.

Payments to refs should ideally come from the overall union for me but obviously it's tricky given you have 4. Probably should have a central pot coming from all the unions which is used to pay all the refs ideally. Not really sure of the ins and outs though to be honest.

The English refs do regularly train with the clubs as well, normally with the clubs they live near so it's not that unusual. I don't think it affects the integrity but I suppose could be used as a stick to beat refs with.

All this bickering is pointless. You ladies will never agree on anything.

The bottom line is that Lacey is a rubbish referee in a Mickey Mouse League that deserves him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:
The English refs do regularly train with the clubs as well, normally with the clubs they live near so it's not that unusual. I don't think it affects the integrity but I suppose could be used as a stick to beat refs with.

Do they pay them though?

Imagine barnes getting paid by Saracens then Munster playign Saracens in Europe with Barnes reffing?

I don't know the ins and outs of pay.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Are the regions prepared to pay Nigel Owens to come in and ref their training sessions (as Munster do with John Lacey)?

Munster pay John Lacey ? Or do the Munster branch pay John Lacey ? Either way, there is a conflict of interest there and John Lacey is being compromised. A ref that is training week in week out and getting payed by that team in a league he is supposed to be officiating in does not sit well with me.

The IRFU (Munster is a branch office) pays everyone involved in Irish rugby.

John Lacey never refs Munster games. Neither does George Clancy who is also from Munster.

In his own words, this is what he does:

What do you (John Lacey) do?
Player and coach development at all levels. I'm also responsible for Munster Schools Development squads. I work with senior coaches at squad sessions on technical aspects of the game. I also work with players at all levels regarding laws, IRB game changes and trends and referee focus.

Why do you guys want to always find the easy way out of not doing your homework on the the referees and trends?

He also says:

Also, working with the senior squad at training keeps me sharp for where I need to be and helping the players in any way possible.