South Africa could be barred from Rugby World Cup by court action

South Africa, one of the favourites for the World Cup, will be prevented from taking part in the tournament if a court action this week succeeds. The Agency for New Agenda (ANA) party is taking the South African Rugby Union to court in Pretoria seeking an order that would force players and officials to surrender their passports, preventing them from flying to London on the grounds that the government’s policy on transformation has not been met with the Springboks’ squad, which was announced last Friday, being mainly white.

South Africa, one of the favourites for the World Cup, will be prevented from taking part in the tournament if a court action this week succeeds. The Agency for New Agenda (ANA) party is taking the South African Rugby Union to court in Pretoria seeking an order that would force players and officials to surrender their passports, preventing them from flying to London on the grounds that the government’s policy on transformation has not been met with the Springboks’ squad, which was announced last Friday, being mainly white.

http://rugbybanterpage.co.uk/springboks-world-cup-in-legal-battle/

I hope the World Sporting Organisations get together and ban us from international sport

"Agency for new Agenda".....sort of says it all.

Why does Race have to come into it?

I thought this was all sorted.

Wow this is crazy, I'm sad for you SA guys. The team and fans do not wait four years to have a shot at the RWC to have to go through this controversy at this late stage.

Biltong wrote:I hope the World Sporting Organisations get together and ban us from international sport

Would that help the country start to deal with the issue?

It is so sad. Hopefully only good can come of it in the end. These things take a lot of time. Some parts of the U.S. Attitudes are the same as fifity years ago with some people.

It helped as deal with the issue previously. Any discrimination is wrong, gene the white flight by young south Africans to the rest if the world to escape descrimibariob on the grounds of race

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:I hope the World Sporting Organisations get together and ban us from international sport

Would that help the country start to deal with the issue?

It is so sad. Hopefully only good can come of it in the end. These things take a lot of time. Some parts of the U.S. Attitudes are the same as fifity years ago with some people.

It will at least take the power of sport as a blackmail tool away from these politicians

Ah the machinations of politics. What better way is there to waste time and ruin the world for those who enjoy peace love and happiness for their fellow man no matter what their origins are.

I have no real grasp on South African politics, so could someone who does (Biltong?) tell me what chance this actually has of stopping the team going?

I thought that they had a race quota anyway and that was why at least one of the players was picked. I'm not judging it either way, it's far too complex an issue for an outsider to understand, just wondering if this is a storm in a tea cup or an actual threat to the team going.

No chance, but that is not the aim. Everytime there is a world event, cricket, rugby (except soccer) the politicians speak up about tranformation, threatening to pull passports etc.

This time the Minister of sport made a statement a few weeks ago, then retracted it after he realised the embarressment the Cricket world cup caused when they demanded Vernon Philander be put in the match against New Zealand after dismall showings and not being fit, effectively replacing Kyle aabbott who was annihilating opposition batsmen.

The public outcry was enormous and they demanded an investigation when word of the quota pick were made piblic.

Of course the Sports minister and CSA denied it, it was eventually swept under the carpet.

Now bevause the minister of sport declared his support for the team another political party trying to increase their footprint is using it for their benefit.

It is quite pathetic really.

However the true sports supporters in SA (black and white) are getting really fedup with this rubbish

Whatever happened to best man for the job whether it be whatever colour they are.

If you pick players purely on their colour just to fill colour then those players picked for that reason surely cant have any pride in being picked as they will know they won't have earned it.

Also it then leads to discrimination in a different way!

It is all about entitlement, nothing else.

The only thing left that hasn't been taken over is rugby and cricket.

You see they can't do it with individual sport, they can't demand the organisers of Wimbledon give a quota spot as firstly it won't happen and secondly if you aren't good enough you will lose in straight sets.

The same applies to athletics golf etc.

But in a team sport you can demand it because it isn't about individual performances in their minds, except it is.

So they don't care whether the South African teams lose ground.

It will be thrown out, as serious as Jeremy Corbyn becoming labour leader in the UK.... hang on a minute!!!

Jokes aside, its not serious

Their is a solution to their claims, that of various persons such as PDV and COSATU. Why don't we just put it all to bed and have a Whites vs. ACI match and see who wins? Never happen and an ACI team wouldn't be that bad but their team would simply get beaten up upfront. They'd probably lose by 30.

Personally I think world rugby should ban SA from test rugby as test rugby, the highest honour should be all about merit. If the best XV happens to be all black then fine... but having mandates saying coaches must make certain picks base on ethnicity is simply racism.

Whites dominate... but no its not whites, its actually Afrikaners.

How many English South Africans can you name in the squad out of 22 whites?

Yep... 2, Pat Lambie and the second is not obvious.... Frans Louw (albeit I think he's paternally Afrikaans and he does speak Afrikaans so he's a boer is all bar upbringing).

So for a country where 40% of whites are English... only 2 is in the 31 compared to

Afrikaners (20)

Oosthuizen, Malherbe, Brits, Bissie, Strauss, Jannie, Eben, Victor, Du Toit, De jager, Burger, Alberts, Vermeulen, Du Preez, Pienaar, Pollard, Steyn, De Villiers, Kriel, Le Roux.

English (2)

Lambie, Louw

African (4)

Mtawarira, Nyakane, Kolisi, Mvovo

Coloured (5)

Paige, Habana, Pietersen, De Allende, Kirchner

Not sure who they think which ACI player would improve the boks... Nizaam Carr, Jantjies, Ntubeni, Mapoe? Perhaps Mapoe should have got some game time I agree and I think taking Mapoe over Paige would have made more sense. The rest are simply too small for even European club rugby let alone test rugby.

But then again I wouldn't have taken Matfield, Du Preez, De Villiers and Morne either (Heyneke sticks to what he knows... not much).

I would have thrown Bissie the armband and brought in Flip, Reinach and Frans Steyn and Mapoe as the above replacements... experience is one thing but they are well beyond England's Dad's army of 2007, its a joke.

I really don't get the methodology of the quota thing unless I haven't understood...wouldn't it make more sense to have targets at a grass roots level for the sport to ensure the highly talented kids from all levels are definitely coming through? Then have a board which includes all races vet the squad selection, just in case? Simples???

In the end sport, elite sport has a lot to do with genetics as well as sport exposure. About 15% of people are 6'0 or taller in the western world yet if you look at the modern test rugby team nearly all are bar the odd scrum half... and in SA even little Ruan is 190cm.

Certain peoples are taller than others, people need to accept this and move on... That average zulu is 5'5. Some of that is probably due to malnutrition I agree but there are hosts of kids who have grown up now out of apartheid and under the best schools ala Nizaam Carr... yet they are still way short of their boere counterparts.

South African Africans are not closely related to the west African, fast and tall sprint kings, they are more closely related to central eastern Africans i.e. those more suited to long distance running. Habana, Pietersen, Kirchner, Hendricks.. they're all (coloured) mixed race just like the new SA sprint hero van Niekerk.

What's the rush for change in SA rugby? I just don't get it. Is it cutting off the nose to spite the face? The people making this decision must know it's weakening SA rugby, is this their goal, it can't be can it?

Rugby is the last stand of Afrikanerism

They break that the Last existing reminder of Afrikanerism dissappears

That political party trying to get some spotlight, would they be arguing that there isn't enough Africans or not enough Africans/Coloured (just going off the grouping names above)? So are they saying 4 isn't enough or 9 isn't enough?


Doesn't seem fair for someone who might not even be interested in a sport or how well their national team performs in a sport getting to interfere in that sport for political gain.

Do those party members attend test matches or Currie Cup and other rugby fixtures regularly? Do they argue the above point for any honest reasons beyond party political gain?

At this point they are arguing that there isn't 30% non white players.

And no, you can bet your bottom dollar they don't watch the sport

9. Paige
10. Jantjies
11. habana
12. de Allende
13. Mapoe
14. Peterson
15. Kirchner (admittedly reaching here)

On form smokes any whites only SA backline you could come up with. Jantjies wasn't given despite outshinimg both Pollard and Lambie in S15. Mapoe got five minutes despite being by some distance the best outside centre we had in Super rugby.

I also like how you subtly continue this sprint comparison of yours despite the fat that 3/5 of the fastest 100m runners in South African history have a black name attached to them and are all currently faster than the Central Africans

kingraf wrote:9. Paige
10. Jantjies
11. habana
12. de Allende
13. Mapoe
14. Peterson
15. Kirchner (admittedly reaching here)

On form smokes any whites only SA backline you could come up with. Jantjies wasn't given despite outshinimg both Pollard and Lambie in S15. Mapoe got five minutes despite being by some distance the best outside centre we had in Super rugby.

I also like how you subtly continue this sprint comparison of yours despite the fat that 3/5 of the fastest 100m runners in South African history have a black name attached to them  

Smoke is over reaching a bit, I'd say.

Paige has talent, but we have only seen him ar Super Rugby level, Jantjies is predictable with his inside no look pass, although he did well for the Lions.

Habana is nowhere near his best form, JP Pietersen was the best defensive winger and had deceptive pace, he no longer shows any hunger when playing rugby for SA.

Mapoe maybe.

Out of your backline De Allende is our best 12 in the country no doubt.

If you suggested we look to the future and consider guys like Jambu Ulenga, Warrick Gelant, Then I will say yes, there is some serious talent coming through.

Faf de Klerk/cobus Reinach
Patrick Lambie/Pollard
Kobus van Wyk
Harold Vorster/Burger Odendaal/Jan Serfontein
Jesse kriel
Francois Hougaard
Willie le Roux

Biltong wrote:

kingraf wrote:9. Paige
10. Jantjies
11. habana
12. de Allende
13. Mapoe
14. Peterson
15. Kirchner (admittedly reaching here)

On form smokes any whites only SA backline you could come up with. Jantjies wasn't given despite outshinimg both Pollard and Lambie in S15. Mapoe got five minutes despite being by some distance the best outside centre we had in Super rugby.

I also like how you subtly continue this sprint comparison of yours despite the fat that 3/5 of the fastest 100m runners in South African history have a black name attached to them  

Smoke is over reaching a bit, I'd say.

Paige has talent, but we have only seen him ar Super Rugby level, Jantjies is predictable with his inside no look pass, although he did well for the Lions.

Habana is nowhere near his best form, JP Pietersen was the best defensive winger and had deceptive pace, he no longer shows any hunger when playing rugby for SA.

Mapoe maybe.

Out of your backline De Allende is our best 12 in the country no doubt.

If you suggested we look to the future and consider guys like Jambu Ulenga, Warrick Gelant, Then I will say yes, there is some serious talent coming through.

Mapoe is only a maybe beause he had a super Currie Cup... and he didnt get picked. He followed that up with an even better S15... and he gets five minutes. Instead we et a fullback and move him into 13. No different to last year when we took the most offensively impotent centre of all time and played him at 13, where he reached never before seen levels of attacking nothingness.

Biltong wrote:Faf de Klerk/cobus Reinach Paige
Patrick Lambie/Pollard Janjies
Kobus van Wyk Habana
Harold Vorster/Burger Odendaal/Jan Serfontein de Allende
Jesse kriel Mapoe
Francois Hougaard Peterson (Been pretty poor, but would need to be poorer still for Hougi to be a better wing than him)
Willie le Roux Kirchner

5/2 on my count. Lambie/Pollard may be better, but Janjies was a notch above in S15. Kriel was not a better 13 than Mapoe. Class player but he Mapoe was stupendous, and thats the only place to compare the two of them since Meyer decided he only needed five minutes to compare internationally.

Look, I just wanna see the best 15, like everyone else (for what its worth, Voster also deserved a game or two).

kingraf wrote:

Biltong wrote:Faf de Klerk/cobus Reinach Paige
Patrick Lambie/Pollard Janjies
Kobus van Wyk Habana
Harold Vorster/Burger Odendaal/Jan Serfontein de Allende
Jesse kriel Mapoe
Francois Hougaard Peterson (Been pretty poor, but would need to be poorer still for Hougi to be a better wing than him)
Willie le Roux Kirchner

5/2 on my count. Lambie/Pollard may be better, but Janjies was a notch above in S15. Kriel was not a better 13 than Mapoe. Class player but he Mapoe was stupendous, and thats the only place to compare the two of them since Meyer decided he only needed five minutes to compare internationally.

Look, I just wanna see the best 15, like everyone else (for what its worth, Voster also deserved a game or two).

Kingraf, I know you are trying to make a point, and that is that there are definitely talent in the non white community, but you are trying a tad too hard.

Jantjies better than LAmbie and Pollard, sorry mate, that is just not even close

Mapoe is better than Kriel? Defensively perhaps, on attack, not on this planet.

Habana makes it on reputation, when last did he have a stormer?

If there is discrimination against black players, it will be happening at the grassroots level in schools and clubs etc. Not at the professional level where winning is everything; if you are coach of the Springboks, you don't have the luxury of not picking the best players. If you are the coach of some small youth team it is different. Also the mechanics of the best rugby schools being private schools filled with white pupils has to have a even bigger impact.

Of course, while addressing those issues will lead to more constructive progress it doesn't quite grab headlines like this. You can't solve problems overnight from the top down. It takes years of reform from the bottom up.

Biltong, or anyone else who can answer this in fact, is this in reality a low key challenge hyperbolised by the media for a story when there's no chance of success or is it a genuine threat to South African Participation in the tournament?

Biltong wrote:

kingraf wrote:

Biltong wrote:Faf de Klerk/cobus Reinach Paige
Patrick Lambie/Pollard Janjies
Kobus van Wyk Habana
Harold Vorster/Burger Odendaal/Jan Serfontein de Allende
Jesse kriel Mapoe
Francois Hougaard Peterson (Been pretty poor, but would need to be poorer still for Hougi to be a better wing than him)
Willie le Roux Kirchner

5/2 on my count. Lambie/Pollard may be better, but Janjies was a notch above in S15. Kriel was not a better 13 than Mapoe. Class player but he Mapoe was stupendous, and thats the only place to compare the two of them since Meyer decided he only needed five minutes to compare internationally.

Look, I just wanna see the best 15, like everyone else (for what its worth, Voster also deserved a game or two).

Kingraf, I know you are trying to make a point, and that is that there are definitely talent in the non white community, but you are trying a tad too hard.

Jantjies better than LAmbie and Pollard, sorry mate, that is just not even close

Mapoe is better than Kriel? Defensively perhaps, on attack, not on this planet.

Habana makes it on reputation, when last did he have a stormer?

Not particularly. Mapoe was standout this S15. To be honest I'm surprised this is even debatable. Kriel isn't a 13. He's a stunning player but at 13 there proved to be daylight between him and Mapoe. As for Jantjies he set his backline off A LOT better than both Lambie and Pollard. No mean feat given the fact the Bok squad would have you believe that they both have better backlines to work with.

And when last did Habana have a stormer is a far better question than when did Kobus van Wyk ever have a stormer.

123456789 wrote:Biltong, or anyone else who can answer this in fact, is this in reality a low key challenge hyperbolised by the media for a story when there's no chance of success or is it a genuine threat to South African Participation in the tournament?

No it isn't a threat

Out of interest what's the make up of the south African football team? Does the quota system apply there and if so have white players been selected over better black players?

kingraf wrote:

Biltong wrote:

kingraf wrote:

Biltong wrote:Faf de Klerk/cobus Reinach Paige
Patrick Lambie/Pollard Janjies
Kobus van Wyk Habana
Harold Vorster/Burger Odendaal/Jan Serfontein de Allende
Jesse kriel Mapoe
Francois Hougaard Peterson (Been pretty poor, but would need to be poorer still for Hougi to be a better wing than him)
Willie le Roux Kirchner

5/2 on my count. Lambie/Pollard may be better, but Janjies was a notch above in S15. Kriel was not a better 13 than Mapoe. Class player but he Mapoe was stupendous, and thats the only place to compare the two of them since Meyer decided he only needed five minutes to compare internationally.

Look, I just wanna see the best 15, like everyone else (for what its worth, Voster also deserved a game or two).

Kingraf, I know you are trying to make a point, and that is that there are definitely talent in the non white community, but you are trying a tad too hard.

Jantjies better than LAmbie and Pollard, sorry mate, that is just not even close

Mapoe is better than Kriel? Defensively perhaps, on attack, not on this planet.

Habana makes it on reputation, when last did he have a stormer?

Not particularly. Mapoe was standout this S15. To be honest I'm surprised this is even debatable. Kriel isn't a 13. He's a stunning player but at 13 there proved to be daylight between him and Mapoe. As for Jantjies he set his backline off A LOT better than both Lambie and Pollard. No mean feat given the fact the Bok squad would have you believe that they both have better backlines to work with.

We will have to agree to disagree, Jantjies has shown he is a lot better than Marnitz Boshoff.

By quota exactly one player would have to be selected in the XI for the footie. We clear that quite regularly. The guy's even the captain. Add the fact that the starting goalkeeper is white and you have overpesentation. Add the coloured defender, and you have black people under represented again in the football squad.

Biltong wrote:

kingraf wrote:

Biltong wrote:

kingraf wrote:

Biltong wrote:Faf de Klerk/cobus Reinach Paige
Patrick Lambie/Pollard Janjies
Kobus van Wyk Habana
Harold Vorster/Burger Odendaal/Jan Serfontein de Allende
Jesse kriel Mapoe
Francois Hougaard Peterson (Been pretty poor, but would need to be poorer still for Hougi to be a better wing than him)
Willie le Roux Kirchner

5/2 on my count. Lambie/Pollard may be better, but Janjies was a notch above in S15. Kriel was not a better 13 than Mapoe. Class player but he Mapoe was stupendous, and thats the only place to compare the two of them since Meyer decided he only needed five minutes to compare internationally.

Look, I just wanna see the best 15, like everyone else (for what its worth, Voster also deserved a game or two).

Kingraf, I know you are trying to make a point, and that is that there are definitely talent in the non white community, but you are trying a tad too hard.

Jantjies better than LAmbie and Pollard, sorry mate, that is just not even close

Mapoe is better than Kriel? Defensively perhaps, on attack, not on this planet.

Habana makes it on reputation, when last did he have a stormer?

Not particularly. Mapoe was standout this S15. To be honest I'm surprised this is even debatable. Kriel isn't a 13. He's a stunning player but at 13 there proved to be daylight between him and Mapoe. As for Jantjies he set his backline off A LOT better than both Lambie and Pollard. No mean feat given the fact the Bok squad would have you believe that they both have better backlines to work with.

We will have to agree to disagree, Jantjies has shown he is a lot better than Marnitz Boshoff.

Fair enough. No one will agree on an entire team. On the Boshoff point, it does raise my concerns about picking Steyn. Having watched last year's CURRIE CUP final where Bossie had an awful day kicking, and the 2011 QF where, Lawrence aside Steyn should have kicked us to victory. If you pick a player because they can kick. And only kick, you do run the risk of shooting yourself in the foot if they can't even do that

kingraf wrote:

Biltong wrote:

kingraf wrote:

Biltong wrote:

kingraf wrote:

Biltong wrote:Faf de Klerk/cobus Reinach Paige
Patrick Lambie/Pollard Janjies
Kobus van Wyk Habana
Harold Vorster/Burger Odendaal/Jan Serfontein de Allende
Jesse kriel Mapoe
Francois Hougaard Peterson (Been pretty poor, but would need to be poorer still for Hougi to be a better wing than him)
Willie le Roux Kirchner

5/2 on my count. Lambie/Pollard may be better, but Janjies was a notch above in S15. Kriel was not a better 13 than Mapoe. Class player but he Mapoe was stupendous, and thats the only place to compare the two of them since Meyer decided he only needed five minutes to compare internationally.

Look, I just wanna see the best 15, like everyone else (for what its worth, Voster also deserved a game or two).

Kingraf, I know you are trying to make a point, and that is that there are definitely talent in the non white community, but you are trying a tad too hard.

Jantjies better than LAmbie and Pollard, sorry mate, that is just not even close

Mapoe is better than Kriel? Defensively perhaps, on attack, not on this planet.

Habana makes it on reputation, when last did he have a stormer?

Not particularly. Mapoe was standout this S15. To be honest I'm surprised this is even debatable. Kriel isn't a 13. He's a stunning player but at 13 there proved to be daylight between him and Mapoe. As for Jantjies he set his backline off A LOT better than both Lambie and Pollard. No mean feat given the fact the Bok squad would have you believe that they both have better backlines to work with.

We will have to agree to disagree, Jantjies has shown he is a lot better than Marnitz Boshoff.

Fair enough. No one will agree on an entire team. On the Boshoff point, it does raise my concerns about picking Steyn. Having watched last year's CURRIE CUP final where Bossie had an awful day kicking, and  the 2011 QF where, Lawrence aside Steyn should have kicked us to victory. If you pick a player because they can kick. And only kick, you do run the risk of shooting yourself in the foot if they can't even do that

Steyn is a massive error on the part of Meyer. I am just too lazy to name all the reasons why.

But kingraf, the issue is racism not statistical aberrations. Proportions can be used as an indicator but not as 'proof'.

In the instance of football, given the majority of players are black it's hard to construct an argument that there has been clear racism, even if the perfect statistical representation isn't met.

The perception is, that rugby is an extension of Afrikaner prejudice. The stats, on the face of it, support this. But statistical aberrations happen all the time. So, you need a bit more evidence. Aren't about 20% of premier league footballers black, when the UK population is about 5%?

Sometimes, some groups just partake in some activities more.

Happytravelling wrote:But kingraf, the issue is racism not statistical aberrations. Proportions can be used as an indicator but not as 'proof'.

In the instance of football, given the majority of players are black it's hard to construct an argument that there has been clear racism, even if the perfect statistical representation isn't met.

The perception is, that rugby is an extension of Afrikaner prejudice. The stats, on the face of it, support this. But statistical aberrations happen all the time. So, you need a bit more evidence. Aren't about 20% of premier league footballers black, when the UK population is about 5%?

Sometimes, some groups just partake in some activities more.

Exactly, and the politicians refuse to acknowledge ratios of participation, they look at the demographics of the population and demand they be met.

All the while not putting one cent into the development of rugby in any non traditional rugby schools.

Biltong wrote:

Happytravelling wrote:But kingraf, the issue is racism not statistical aberrations. Proportions can be used as an indicator but not as 'proof'.

In the instance of football, given the majority of players are black it's hard to construct an argument that there has been clear racism, even if the perfect statistical representation isn't met.

The perception is, that rugby is an extension of Afrikaner prejudice. The stats, on the face of it, support this. But statistical aberrations happen all the time. So, you need a bit more evidence. Aren't about 20% of premier league footballers black, when the UK population is about 5%?

Sometimes, some groups just partake in some activities more.

Exactly, and the politicians refuse to acknowledge ratios of participation, they look at the demographics of the population and demand they be met.

All the while not putting one cent into the development of rugby in any non traditional rugby schools.

Here in NI post 1998 there has been a lot of issues regarding quotas etc while some institutions have implemented them they have also taken other steps to make change the image and appeal. From all I've read on the subject in SA the politicians seem to have a simple idea that its a matter of black players not being afforded a fair chance, while there may be elements of it remaining in sports and society, it seems its being done in isolation without giving them a better platform from grassroots up

marty2086 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Happytravelling wrote:But kingraf, the issue is racism not statistical aberrations. Proportions can be used as an indicator but not as 'proof'.

In the instance of football, given the majority of players are black it's hard to construct an argument that there has been clear racism, even if the perfect statistical representation isn't met.

The perception is, that rugby is an extension of Afrikaner prejudice. The stats, on the face of it, support this. But statistical aberrations happen all the time. So, you need a bit more evidence. Aren't about 20% of premier league footballers black, when the UK population is about 5%?

Sometimes, some groups just partake in some activities more.

Exactly, and the politicians refuse to acknowledge ratios of participation, they look at the demographics of the population and demand they be met.

All the while not putting one cent into the development of rugby in any non traditional rugby schools.

Here in NI post 1998 there has been a lot of issues regarding quotas etc while some institutions have implemented them they have also taken other steps to make change the image and appeal. From all I've read on the subject in SA the politicians seem to have a simple idea that its a matter of black players not being afforded a fair chance, while there may be elements of it remaining in sports and society, it seems its being done in isolation without giving them a better platform from grassroots up

Well that is the issue, there is NO grassroots development funded by government. Any initiative for grass root development is done by private industry. Rugby clubs, rugby schools and private individuals.

Happytravelling wrote:But kingraf, the issue is racism not statistical aberrations. Proportions can be used as an indicator but not as 'proof'.

In the instance of football, given the majority of players are black it's hard to construct an argument that there has been clear racism, even if the perfect statistical representation isn't met.

The perception is, that rugby is an extension of Afrikaner prejudice. The stats, on the face of it, support this. But statistical aberrations happen all the time. So, you need a bit more evidence. Aren't about 20% of premier league footballers black, when the UK population is about 5%?

Sometimes, some groups just partake in some activities more.

I don't have a problem with the ratio. Someone just asked if there's a similar ratio in pro football here, and I answered. If 31 Afrikaans players are rated as the best available then good luck to them. I just don't pity SARU in this case because

- Meyer selects like an ass
- SARU themselves have previously shown that they would rather not have an inquiry into the reasons for the lack of coloured talent coming through.

kingraf wrote:

Happytravelling wrote:But kingraf, the issue is racism not statistical aberrations. Proportions can be used as an indicator but not as 'proof'.

In the instance of football, given the majority of players are black it's hard to construct an argument that there has been clear racism, even if the perfect statistical representation isn't met.

The perception is, that rugby is an extension of Afrikaner prejudice. The stats, on the face of it, support this. But statistical aberrations happen all the time. So, you need a bit more evidence. Aren't about 20% of premier league footballers black, when the UK population is about 5%?

Sometimes, some groups just partake in some activities more.

I don't have a problem with the ratio. Someone just asked if there's a similar ratio in pro football here, and I answered. If 31 Afrikaans players are rated as the best available then good luck to them. I just don't pity SARU in this case because

- Meyer selects like an ass
- SARU themselves have previously shown that they would rather not have an inquiry into the reasons for the lack of coloured talent coming through.

Meyer does select like an ass, no doubt about it. But it has nothing to do with race, rather nepotism.

As for SARU, yes, I am sure they can do more. In fact I would love to see them invest into an Academy in eaxh province where there is a Currie Cup team and have scouts going out to find hidden talent. In fact these academies should really just be rugby schools managed and funded by SARU.

However, the blame lies squarely on the shoulder of Government for not funding rugby.

Yes, I agree. Government has to shoulder a lot of the blame. But it's not just rugby where they are poor. It's basically every single sport we have. Wayde van Niekerk finished fourth by microseconds in the junior 200m years back, and he didn't get government backing. To a large degree, SA football talent structures are government owned, and the amount of 23-26 year old who suddenly show up playing at a good level shows that too much talent slips through the cracks. I'm not pro government by any means. In fact, without sounding like a republican American small government fan, I'd rather government was nowhere near sport. Even further away from Energy, and a million miles away from resources and wage structures.

As I think most are agreeing here, the issue is a lack of players being developed. Which begs the question, what is the proportion of black players participating at Currie cup and below?

Does that give any indication of the talent pool to choose from?

It is difficult to give you an exact number, regular players on a given matchday I would hazard a guess around 5 per team

Think a full strength Stormers can be as many as five or six starting, two or three benching. Lions had about three or four starting. Under Have White Sharks had a rather large contingent, don't know about now. Really hard to put a number

So, less than about 30%.

Is that where they get the quota figure from?

The debate about whether or not the Boks are representative of the demographics of SA as a whole is misleading. The question should be: are they representative of the demographic of the rugby-loving South Africans. Large numbers of black South Africans care little for rugby and have no desire to play it (even the head of Cosatu, who frequently criticises the Boks for 'lack of transformation', says he has no interest in rugby and watches Formula 1 instead!)

No, that figure is thumbsuck, the goal for 2019 is 50%

Happytravelling wrote:So, less than about 30%.

Is that where they get the quota figure from?

I assume it's under the assumption that four play in the 15. Times it by two you get 8. Add one for player 31 and you get 31. In effect, yes a thumbsuck