Leinster v Cardiff Blues 12th September 2015 17:15 RDS Arena

First topic message reminder :


Leinster suffered a 9-16 reversal in Edinburgh on Friday but have not begun a Guinness PRO12 campaign with successive defeats since 2003/04.

The Leinstermen's only loss at the RDS Arena in any competition since March 2013 was 14-16 to the Dragons in the PRO12 last February.

Cardiff Blues achieved their second biggest victory in PRO12 history on Sunday in defeating Zebre 61-13, their 11 tries in the match equalling the PRO12 all-time record set by the Ospreys against Treviso in 2014.

The Blues only victory in their last 17 encounters against Leinster in all tournaments was 11-3 at Cardiff City Stadium in the PRO12 in February 2011, whilst their only victory in Dublin against Leinster came in March 2004 at Donnybrook.

At RDS Arena, 5:15pm.

Referee: Ben Whitehouse (WRU, 8th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Eddie Hogan-O'Connell, Jonathan Peak (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Peter Ferguson (IRFU)
TMO: Seamus Flannery (IRFU)

Live on Sky Sports
Read more at http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/17799.php#cPLG8HDvRmwuQtC7.99

???

Nigel likes the go-forward team by instinct - yes.  Either by furious breakdown work or running.  He'll give his benefits of doubt to the attacking side.  
So, it's either that you as a Welshman are envious of other sides that can be reffed by him or you want to totally renounce Welsh dogma and the Welsh way here and now, live on 606.  Because Wales would have a field day with Nigel and as I say, you bloody know it.

Hmm, I thought Scarlet implied I was on Chunky's ignore list?

SecretFly wrote:On the first paragraph.  Shame it is then that the only Welsh ref, sideline-official, or TMO I ever hear Welsh people openly criticise as being bad at his job is, ironically, the ref that is often quoted as being the best in the world, Nigel Owens!!!

Tim Hayes, and James Jones always used to slated for being useless.  Leighton Hodges is another one who nobody wants to see officiate them.  All of these are Welsh refs that the regional fans dread (or used to dread) seeing officiate matches.

SecretFly wrote:Your second paragraph I can't accept.  IF Welsh officials felt as strongly as you people that Irish officials are taking the P*ss or simply P*ss poor, they'd let the world, the Pro12 organisers, the media and those corrupt Irish officials themselves know about it.  And if it persisted, they'd pointedly start fully over-ruling them and pointedly writing reports to the reffing overlord about them.  Is this taking place?  The Welsh refs look at games on TV and see what you guys see.

Fair enough.  You keep on talking about outright corruption.  I am trying to be a bit more realist and talk about poor 'judgement' calls.


As for your other comment, meh.

Oh and if someone quotes you, then people who have ignored you can see that. (Look back to the Wales England Again thread, where Chunky mentions blocking you, with kicked off the foul language from classy posters).

You mention Welsh officials now. I don't see the myriad of threads devoted to their issues. I've certainly come across very few.

The present isn't the past - you can't cover up or deny that past by claiming you've been mentioning Welsh officials here just as much as you've been mentioning Irish ones. It isn't so. Bias is the key. The Irish are prominent for a reason.

I talk about outright 'corruption' because your pals Chunky and to a degree Lord allude to it over and over again. I don't write the threads. If nobody talked about corruption we wouldn't be here arguing about it...for the last year.

Chunky Dunks Fly? But keeps listening to him anyway on the sly? I'm honoured.

It's because you cannot see the issues of having officials, players, coaches, chairmen, directors, all under one umbrella.

Talking about the likes of Hayes being a dire ref used to fill the Welsh threads, and it is only in the past with him and James Jones because they are no longer refs because they were so bad. Although Hayes does TMO sometimes and it does still get a mention. I remember a fair few times in the past reading comments before Scarlets v Dragons games along the lines of 'James Jones is a Terk, he will bend the rules for his boys' based on the fact he lives within the regional boundaries. I assume the reason that these comments on threads have not caught your attention, or remained in your memory as much, is because they were/are not relevant to you.

As for my Pals Chunky, and Lord, I am afraid I have not signed the friendship agreement with them, and have locked horns with Lord a few times on other issues, however on the topic of quality of officiating I side with him more than I side with you.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Talking about the likes of Hayes being a dire ref used to fill the Welsh threads, and it is only in the past with him and James Jones because they are no longer refs because they were so bad.  Although Hayes does TMO sometimes and it does still get a mention.  I remember a fair few times in the past reading comments before Scarlets v Dragons games along the lines of 'James Jones is a Terk, he will bend the rules for his boys' based on the fact he lives within the regional boundaries.  I assume the reason that these comments on threads have not caught your attention, or remained in your memory as much, is because they were/are not relevant to you.

As for my Pals Chunky, and Lord, I am afraid I have not signed the friendship agreement with them, and have locked horns with Lord a few times on other issues, however on the topic of quality of officiating I side with him more than I side with you.

That damned Friendship Agreement Form. It's causing much angst lately.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

The touch judge is about 5metres away.
.

He missed the "not straight" lineout throw though, conveniently

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixA500XvI9k#t=1m01s

As bent as a butcher's hook as we say in Wales.
Straighter than the put-in at the scrum that followed though which led to the penalty try. May as well have just handed the ball to their no.8.
So I counted 4 contentious points in a couple of mins....
1) butcher's hook of a lineout throw
2) Navidi fitted up
3) 45 degree put-in
4) penalty try, first go which is unusual

All that is true but there was a clear penalty/yellow card infringement at that maul by Hoeata. Clearly takes it down illegally right in front of the ref who missed it and decided to card navidi on the touch judges advice. The ref was poor for both sides.

Don Blues wrote:All that is true but there was a clear penalty/yellow card infringement at that maul by Hoeata. Clearly takes it down illegally right in front of the ref who missed it and decided to card navidi on the touch judges advice. The ref was poor for both sides.

Watch the linesman fiddle with his mic then notice what the ref does. Hoeata was already on the floor doing not very much.

Yeah I see that and navidi is not a penalty or yellow, however, Hoeata goes down then comes up again and collapses the maul then the ref sticks his arm out after the signal from the touch. Shame there's no camera the other side so we can see what navidi is supposed to have done.

Don Blues wrote:Yeah I see that and navidi is not a penalty or yellow, however, Hoeata goes down then comes up again and collapses the maul then the ref sticks his arm out after the signal from the touch.  Shame there's no camera the other side so we can see what navidi is supposed to have done.

Nevermind, it's only the Magners.

Guinness a far nicer drink than magners! Shame about the league though!

Don Blues wrote:Guinness a far nicer drink than magners! Shame about the league though!

Agreed, agreed.

LordDowlais wrote:Secretfly, you like all your other Irish brethren on here cannot see the issues that are being caused by having officials AND players all under one umbrella.

Yes the refereeing in our league is crap, and it needs to be sorted. But when you have officials and players/teams all feeding from the same trough it brings in a whole new world of debate, why cant you see this ?

You should really go onto a Connacht or even a Munster forum and tell them the refs in our league favor Irish teams. You'll be laughed off the site by almost every poster. In terms of the standard...The standard is poor in every league. The performance of the ref for the castres Oyannax match at the weekend was nothing short of atrocious. On the London Irish forum they had a thread dedicated to bashing Wayne Barnes last year; who would be one of the elite refs for the RFU. I'm interested to know where are all these great refs in the other leagues?

Its my first time visiting this thread after watching the game and surprise surprise its all about the ref again.

67% territory to Leinster
70% possession to Leinster
481m made to Cardiffs 182m


Looking at that you'd think Cardiff got hammered but no they didn't. They only conceded 2 more penalties than Leinster dispite all of Leinsters possession. And yet the ref is being questioned!

Region team wins = Good ref (unless he's Irish) Region team loses = Bad ref (especially if he's Irish).

A Regions win/loss thing is the only criteria to judge a refs performance ............. unless he's Irish. In which case it's either bad ref or very bad ref.

Simples

clearly Leinster deserved the win (especially on those stats!). What is frustrating for blues fans is that we could have/should have had a losing bonus. What happens then? We debate contentious ref decisions! Do u think what navidi did was worthy of a penalty let alone a yellow?

I think all the refs in the league are sh1t, not just the irish ones.

SecretFly wrote:???

Nigel likes the go-forward team by instinct - yes.  Either by furious breakdown work or running.  He'll give his benefits of doubt to the attacking side.  
So, it's either that you as a Welshman are envious of other sides that can be reffed by him or you want to totally renounce Welsh dogma and the Welsh way here and now, live on 606.  Because Wales would have a field day with Nigel and as I say, you bloody know it.

Is 'furious breakdown work' a different way of saying 'ignoring the laws'.

O'wens is, for me, a dreadful referee. Ask the French about his 153 minutes and how he manages to get Ireland vs France in the World Cup.

He's far too 'look at me'. Good refs shouldn't be noticed.

Don Blues wrote:All that is true but there was a clear penalty/yellow card infringement at that maul by Hoeata. Clearly takes it down illegally right in front of the ref who missed it and decided to card navidi on the touch judges advice. The ref was poor for both sides.

Was he first man to connect, tackling the ball carrier?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
You should really go onto a Connacht or even a Munster forum and tell them the refs in our league favor Irish teams. You'll be laughed off the site by almost every poster. In terms of the standard...The standard is poor in every league. The performance of the ref for the castres Oyannax match at the weekend was nothing short of atrocious. On the London Irish forum they had a thread dedicated to bashing Wayne Barnes last year; who would be one of the elite refs for the RFU. I'm interested to know where are all these great refs in the other leagues?

Being laughed at by Munster supporters is a badge of honour. Even after they have now followed the game for 15 years, they still don't understand it.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:???

Nigel likes the go-forward team by instinct - yes.  Either by furious breakdown work or running.  He'll give his benefits of doubt to the attacking side.  
So, it's either that you as a Welshman are envious of other sides that can be reffed by him or you want to totally renounce Welsh dogma and the Welsh way here and now, live on 606.  Because Wales would have a field day with Nigel and as I say, you bloody know it.

Is 'furious breakdown work' a different way of saying 'ignoring the laws'.

No its a way of saying some of us still appreciate rugby union for what it is and don't all want to eradicate the scrum, maul and breakdown totally and turn the game into a watered down and slowed up version of RL in order facilitate perma-tanned, shave legged, hair-sprayed players in white boots and cross code mercenaries - who either don't understand or are afraid to stick their head in the breakdown and would rather cry at the ref to get the ball... the way they some English and Welsh fans seem to think the game should go.

If you don't like rucking, super league is on Thursday night sky sports.

rodders wrote:If you don't like rucking, super league is on Thursday night sky sports.

If "rucking" was still allowed, then Irish rugby would be fecked.

rodders wrote:

No its a way of saying some of us still appreciate rugby union for what it is and don't all want to eradicate the scrum, maul and breakdown totally and turn the game into a watered down and slowed up version of RL in order facilitate perma-tanned, shave legged, hair-sprayed players in white boots and cross code mercenaries - who either don't understand or are afraid to stick their head in the breakdown and would rather cry at the ref to get the ball... the way they some English and Welsh fans seem to think the game should go.

If you don't like rucking, super league is on Thursday night sky sports.

Mate, I'd suggest that you read the Law Book. It will help you appreciate what O'wens ignores.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:???

Nigel likes the go-forward team by instinct - yes.  Either by furious breakdown work or running.  He'll give his benefits of doubt to the attacking side.  
So, it's either that you as a Welshman are envious of other sides that can be reffed by him or you want to totally renounce Welsh dogma and the Welsh way here and now, live on 606.  Because Wales would have a field day with Nigel and as I say, you bloody know it.

Is 'furious breakdown work' a different way of saying 'ignoring the laws'.

It's a way, one more time, of saying Wales would love being reffed by him. Like I said to Lord, you know it, I know it - and take from that what you will. Either you don't like the Welsh way and think it's all 'spirit of the game' over legal, or you're a touch jealous everyone else gets Owens and you guys don't.

And I wouldn't know what the French would moan about, if they play like the did against England in the 6N when they meet us, Nigel will love them and we have every chance of losing.

LordDowlais wrote:

rodders wrote:If you don't like rucking, super league is on Thursday night sky sports.

If "rucking" was still allowed, then Irish rugby would be fecked.

"Bring Back Rucking!" say the Welsh!

PhilBB wrote:

Don Blues wrote:All that is true but there was a clear penalty/yellow card infringement at that maul by Hoeata. Clearly takes it down illegally right in front of the ref who missed it and decided to card navidi on the touch judges advice. The ref was poor for both sides.

Was he first man to connect, tackling the ball carrier?

I wouldn't say so, there are 1 or 2 Blues players that connect before him.

Don Blues wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Don Blues wrote:All that is true but there was a clear penalty/yellow card infringement at that maul by Hoeata. Clearly takes it down illegally right in front of the ref who missed it and decided to card navidi on the touch judges advice. The ref was poor for both sides.

Was he first man to connect, tackling the ball carrier?

I wouldn't say so, there are 1 or 2 Blues players that connect before him.

Looking at it quite closely, I'd say he was the first Cardiff player to engage. The others engaged on Cardiff's side of the lineout are blocking Leinster forwards. It's a tactic Cardiff used all game.

Possibly. I would argue they (the players you say are blocking) have formed the maul. It's all opinions and how u interpret the laws and what is happening.

Jonah lomu was asked on sky sports who was going to win the World Cup his response, with a laugh, the ref!! It's true in a sense and that is why teams analyse referees style much as it can affect the way u play.

If you go to 1:07 on the video you can still see his head as he is standing up on the other side of the maul,not engaged.

Don Blues wrote:Possibly. I would argue they (the players you say are blocking) have formed the maul. It's all opinions and how u interpret the laws and what is happening.

Jonah lomu was asked on sky sports who was going to win the World Cup his response, with a laugh, the ref!! It's true in a sense and that is why teams analyse referees style much as it can affect the way u play.

I don't think that you can form a maul without players from each team.

You're right on the analysis. It's why France have little chance against Ireland.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

If you go to 1:07 on the video you can still see his head as he is standing up on the other side of the maul,not engaged.

Patchell penalty kick jeered 0:07, btw. Just saying like.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

rodders wrote:If you don't like rucking, super league is on Thursday night sky sports.

If "rucking" was still allowed, then Irish rugby would be fecked.

"Bring Back Rucking!" say the Welsh!

They can ruck off!!

Cardiff Dave wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

If you go to 1:07 on the video you can still see his head as he is standing up on the other side of the maul,not engaged.

Patchell penalty kick jeered 0:07, btw. Just saying like.

But that never happens in Ireland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NdvuYcvk5k

Deadly silence on this one.

PhilBB wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NdvuYcvk5k

Deadly silence on this one.

That has no relevance in this match thread.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

PhilBB wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NdvuYcvk5k

Deadly silence on this one.

That has no relevance in this match thread.

Like you then Rory

?

'The Irish boo even though they pretend they never boo' line?

Ahhh... you know all is right with the world when that old one comes up to beat us over the head with.  Still embarrasses the feck out of me.  

Why did yis boo lads???  

The shame.

Stone Motif wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

PhilBB wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NdvuYcvk5k

Deadly silence on this one.

That has no relevance in this match thread.

Like you then Rory

I support the Irish provinces and I watched the game, and would actually like to see a match discussion.

Leinster fans, who is considered to be the next big thing between Dan Leavy and Josh van der Flier? They both look very good, but as far as I am aware they are both openside flankers. Which one are you going to send to Ulster to help us out a bit?

Nice try Rory... Slyly in there when you thought we were distracted.

We'll give you Dan until it looks like he's better than Flier - then we'll accuse you of theft and take him back with compensation.

Didn't see the game actually.  So not really in tune yet with how things are looking or who might be promising... though Kelleher is the one I'd have my eye on as one of those instinct hunches.

Hmm that's a tough one,I think Leavy had more hype as a youth player but VdF looks the business so it's just a case of seeing who turns out the better player and sending the reject up north.

Seriously though I don't know what way it'll pan out we have a glut of backrowers in Leinster right now and next season when there's no WC we might need to let some of them go.Dominic Ryan and Kevin McLoughlin would be the most likely to lose out if that happens but we'll have to wait and see how things pan out with injuries,form etc.

They both look very talented. VDF was genuinely fantastic against the Blues, and he looks like "a proper 7" that Ireland have possibly lacked for a while. Could Leavy potentially play at blindside flanker in the future? Or would he be lacking in physicality?

SecretFly wrote:Nice try Rory... Slyly in there when you thought we were distracted.

We'll give you Dan until it looks like he's better than Flier - then we'll accuse you of theft and take him back with compensation.

Didn't see the game actually.  So not really in tune yet with how things are looking or who might be promising... though Kelleher is the one I'd have my eye on as one of those instinct hunches.

I don't know much about Kelleher, but I have heard him mentioned an awful lot. He is primarily a fullback isn't he? He seems a bit short for the position though, according to the Leinster website. Very cool and catchy name though, Cian Kelleher.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:They both look very talented. VDF was genuinely fantastic against the Blues, and he looks like "a proper 7" that Ireland have possibly lacked for a while. Could Leavy potentially play at blindside flanker in the future? Or would he be lacking in physicality?

I'm not really sure if he could play 6,I've never seen him play anywhere but 7 and if he did move over he'd be competing with Ruddock and Murphy so it doesn't really change his situation.

PhilBB wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NdvuYcvk5k

Deadly silence on this one.

Marvelous, super and smashing that Dan Parks kick.
In my top 10 of great rugby moments.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:They both look very talented. VDF was genuinely fantastic against the Blues, and he looks like "a proper 7" that Ireland have possibly lacked for a while. Could Leavy potentially play at blindside flanker in the future? Or would he be lacking in physicality?

I'm not really sure if he could play 6,I've never seen him play anywhere but 7 and if he did move over he'd be competing with Ruddock and Murphy so it doesn't really change his situation.

That is true, which is why Ulster should take the reject.

We'll take a centre in trade ,McCloskey would do nicely.

SecretFly wrote:?

'The Irish boo even though they pretend they never boo' line?

Ahhh... you know all is right with the world when that old one comes up to beat us over the head with.  Still embarrasses the feck out of me.  

Why did yis boo lads???  

The shame.

I've always preferred the French approach ie boo, jeer, bang feck out of the boards, throw sheets of paper in the air, remind the kicker that his shoe laces are undone just as he's beginning his run up, etc. See Jenks.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:We'll take a centre in trade ,McCloskey would do nicely.

Eh...