London Welsh in the Pro12 ? Talks have began.

First topic message reminder :

No, No, No. Why should this lot be allowed in the Pro12 ? Surely RGC1404 should be the next team in the Pro12. London Welsh are not even Welsh, they're English with a Welsh name, anyway here we are:-

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/23951/exclusive-london-welsh-have-initiated-discussions-about-switching-to-pro12/

So you do thinnk the Aviva is lame and defective then as they haven't won the Big Euro Cup as many times as Pro 12 teams then?

And you think the Pro 12 is defective purely down to financial spreadsheets.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:If you go by the winners alone and ignore the ability to compete ie actual games and how they've gone, surely it's the English leage which is defective?

Do you think the English league is defective? I don't. Great product. Greatr viewwing. Great players, generates lots of income.

So now its about quality, income, and the players and not competiveness? Which one is it?

All of them. I've posted this tens of times. And you've responded tens of times.

As 7.5 pointed out history points to the Pro 12 being competitive and the AP not being competitive so how is the AP not then defective? The Pro 12 also has great players and must be better viewing if it can attract bigger viewing figures and the product can't be too bad if one of the worlds top brands wants to sponsor it?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you do thinnk the Aviva is lame and defective then as they haven't won the Big Euro Cup as many times as Pro 12 teams then?

And you think the Pro 12 is defective purely down to financial spreadsheets.

He just doesn't like the league and wants an Anglo Welsh one which is nothing but a pipe dream he won't let go off

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you do thinnk the Aviva is lame and defective then as they haven't won the Big Euro Cup as many times as Pro 12 teams then?

No, 12 teams in the Aviva would fare far better against everyone else in Europe, than the 12 teams in the Pro 12.

And you think the Pro 12 is defective purely down to financial spreadsheets.

No. As I've just said 3 times.

Yet the Pro 12 teams are more competetive. Equal with the French.

marty2086 wrote:
As 7.5 pointed out history points to the Pro 12 being competitive and the AP not being competitive so how is the AP not then defective? The Pro 12 also has great players and must be better viewing if it can attract bigger viewing figures and the product can't be too bad if one of the worlds top brands wants to sponsor it?

History? Like when Ulster won the European cup and no English teams were in it?

This is about the here and now.

Nojust the time the Pro 12 has been going. You've got yourself in a bit of a pickle with your argument Chunky.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
As 7.5 pointed out history points to the Pro 12 being competitive and the AP not being competitive so how is the AP not then defective? The Pro 12 also has great players and must be better viewing if it can attract bigger viewing figures and the product can't be too bad if one of the worlds top brands wants to sponsor it?

History? Like when Ulster won the European cup and no English teams were in it?

This is about the here and now.

Or how the AP hasn't seen a winner in 9 years to the Pro 12 and Top 14s 4? That's competitive?

How can you assess the hear and now since it is continually changing?

Ah - but the pro 12 stats look so good in Europe because of the Irish performances over the last few years. I'd guess the big question then is have the Irish been so competitive because of the pro12 or in spite of it.

Same with Toulon and France.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Same with Toulon and France.

People will only lump the pro 12 teams together when it suits their arguments (such as the HC debate). You're right though that Toulon has been carrying the French in Europe, almost on their own and to say they are a french team is being kind to say the least.

If Pro 12 can invite English clubs join their league I assume there would be no objections if Aviva Premiership invite say Ospreys to join along with Bristol.

Exiledinborders wrote:If Pro 12 can invite English clubs join their league I assume there would be no objections if Aviva Premiership invite say Ospreys to join along with Bristol.

Yay

I do find it all a bit strange. London Welsh have 'Welsh' in the title but they have nothing really to do with Wales. Just a name. A moniker. It's not like London Wasps have a load of striped stinging insects running around the pitch trying to play rugby. It's just a name. So why are we looking at these two teams in particular? There must be a better reason than 'someone gave them the name Welsh (and Scottish) many moons ago, therefore they are Welsh/Scottish and we're looking to bring them back home'. Ridiculous.

Has the Pro 12 even invited them? I've always just seen this as a way for Welsh and Scottish to get a better deal from the IRFU. This will never happen imo.

Griff wrote:I do find it all a bit strange. London Welsh have 'Welsh' in the title but they have nothing really to do with Wales. Just a name. A moniker. It's not like London Wasps have a load of striped stinging insects running around the pitch trying to play rugby. It's just a name. So why are we looking at these two teams in particular? There must be a better reason than 'someone gave them the name Welsh (and Scottish) many moons ago, therefore they are Welsh/Scottish and we're looking to bring them back home'. Ridiculous.

Not entirely true, both clubs have a massive history of providing Welsh and Scottish internationals and both remain affiliated to both unions.

This season in particular the Scottish clubs have been sending a steady stream of promising young players down to LS to get better playing experience than they could get in the Scottish leagues.

I don't know what LW is like these days, but if you went to watch a match at LS you would be under no doubts that it is still a club with a lot of roots in Scotland.

BigGee wrote:

Griff wrote:I do find it all a bit strange. London Welsh have 'Welsh' in the title but they have nothing really to do with Wales. Just a name. A moniker. It's not like London Wasps have a load of striped stinging insects running around the pitch trying to play rugby. It's just a name. So why are we looking at these two teams in particular? There must be a better reason than 'someone gave them the name Welsh (and Scottish) many moons ago, therefore they are Welsh/Scottish and we're looking to bring them back home'. Ridiculous.

Not entirely true, both clubs have a massive history of providing Welsh and Scottish internationals and both remain affiliated to both unions.

This season in particular the Scottish clubs have been sending a steady stream of promising young players down to LS to get better playing experience than they could get in the Scottish leagues.

I don't know what LW is like these days, but if you went to watch a match at LS you would be under no doubts that it is still a club with a lot of roots in Scotland.

Perhaps in the amateur era yeah, but this is the pro era now and they are not a feeder team for the native lands of their founding members. The Scottish clubs probably loan (or whatever else) players out to various teams, not just LS. What Griff says sounds about right.

mikey_dragon wrote:

BigGee wrote:

Griff wrote:I do find it all a bit strange. London Welsh have 'Welsh' in the title but they have nothing really to do with Wales. Just a name. A moniker. It's not like London Wasps have a load of striped stinging insects running around the pitch trying to play rugby. It's just a name. So why are we looking at these two teams in particular? There must be a better reason than 'someone gave them the name Welsh (and Scottish) many moons ago, therefore they are Welsh/Scottish and we're looking to bring them back home'. Ridiculous.

Not entirely true, both clubs have a massive history of providing Welsh and Scottish internationals and both remain affiliated to both unions.

This season in particular the Scottish clubs have been sending a steady stream of promising young players down to LS to get better playing experience than they could get in the Scottish leagues.

I don't know what LW is like these days, but if you went to watch a match at LS you would be under no doubts that it is still a club with a lot of roots in Scotland.

Perhaps in the amateur era yeah, but this is the pro era now and they are not a feeder team for the native lands of their founding members. The Scottish clubs probably loan (or whatever else) players out to various teams, not just LS. What Griff says sounds about right.

Well they have certainly been doing it a lot more over the past couple of years. Feeder club is overstating it, but they certainly have very good and close relations, including pre season friendlies etc.

I am actually ambivalent about the prospect of LS going into the Pro 12.

The pros are that realistically there is always going to be a problem setting up another pro team in Scotland, it is hard to really see any area outside of Glasgow/Edinburgh that could support one and Scotland does need to expand its professional pool. From the clubs point of view they are never seriously going to get promoted and if they did it would be a disaster. There is potentially a massive Scottish diaspora around London (of which I am one) who may support it as well. They were coming up to Newcastle by the train load during the WC.

Against it is that it would likely never be politically acceptable in Scotland to part fund a side in London and I get that as well and so I would not be the one to stick my head over the parapet and argue for it. I expect it will forever remain a good idea that will never come to fruition.

Is there any chance of the Borders making a return?

Any clubs in the English pyramid structure (I.e. League structure) have a duty, obligation and agreement to develop talent for England, not for other nations, as far as I understand. Yes, a few players may be sent there but those clubs will be on sticky ground if they are seen to be deliberately developing players for another nation.

In terms of LW, yes like Mikey says it was more of an amateur era thing. And that was because the good jobs were in London so a number of players turned out for them as a Welsh club when down their working. But now, although some Welsh players have gone to LW there's probably just as many that have gone to Bristol, so in LW's case I wouldn't say there's a feeder thing of any sort going on.

And are LW really affiliated with the WRU? I mean officially? I expect their official affiliation would be with the RFU. Surely?

London Scottish have SRU branding on their shirts and are joint affiliated. I always assumed LW are the same.

mikey_dragon wrote:Is there any chance of the Borders making a return?

None whatsoever I would say. It is just not well populated enough and the locals are far to parochial! If another Scottish Pro team was ever to exist in Scotland, Aberdeen or Perth would probably be better options, though neither area is traditionally a hot bed of rugby and that is the problem. SRU unlikely to ever be able to fund another side that cannot generate a reasonable income of its own.

Wasn't there talks of someone with deep pockets wanting to fund a team up in Aberdeen?
This wouldn't be a bad idea but i would much prefer the London Scottish one. I think Pro14 with LS and LW is the way to go and i would like the season to start earlier in the summer as i also think summer rugby could be the way to go too.

VinceWLB wrote:Wasn't there talks of someone with deep pockets wanting to fund a team up in Aberdeen?

That was Aberdeen Asset Management, who interestingly also provide sponsorship for LS.

It was floated but it was never said how much they were offering or what their long term commitment would be. If they had been serious, you would be talking seriously big bucks.

Unfortunately the economy of the NE of Scotland is taking a bath at the moment due to the oil price situation. That won't have helped if anyone would be thinking of resurrecting this idea.

VinceWLB wrote:Wasn't there talks of someone with deep pockets wanting to fund a team up in Aberdeen?
This wouldn't be a bad idea but i would much prefer the London Scottish one. I think Pro14 with LS and LW is the way to go and i would like the season to start earlier in the summer as i also think summer rugby could be the way to go too.

Who would fund these new pro12 additions? From a Welsh perspective, I wouldn't be keen for the pie to be split 5 ways instead of 4 (WRU funding). A bit selfish maybe but we struggle enough as it is!

I assume that these two clubs get some sort of funding from the RFU. Not much, but some? They'd obviously lose that if they joined the Pro12 and left the RFU structure. But I guess they're managing to fund a squad currently so could continue to do that as is. But how will such a squad (as current) fare in a pro league? They'll need a lot of investment in players to make the team competitive. That'll cost a lot!

Griff wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Wasn't there talks of someone with deep pockets wanting to fund a team up in Aberdeen?
This wouldn't be a bad idea but i would much prefer the London Scottish one. I think Pro14 with LS and LW is the way to go and i would like the season to start earlier in the summer as i also think summer rugby could be the way to go too.

Who would fund these new pro12 additions? From a Welsh perspective, I wouldn't be keen for the pie to be split 5 ways instead of 4 (WRU funding). A bit selfish maybe but we struggle enough as it is!

I assume that these two clubs get some sort of funding from the RFU. Not much, but some? They'd obviously lose that if they joined the Pro12 and left the RFU structure. But I guess they're managing to fund a squad currently so could continue to do that as is. But how will such a squad (as current) fare in a pro league? They'll need a lot of investment in players to make the team competitive. That'll cost a lot!

I guess the funding could be split in 3: 40% WRU/SRU 30% RFU and the rest from private investment. I don't see why the RFU wouldn't want to pay anything as it would allow 2 of their teams to play at a higher standard than the championship and it would be one hurdle less for a 14 team closed premiership. Could see it as a win/win situation.

VinceWLB wrote:

Griff wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Wasn't there talks of someone with deep pockets wanting to fund a team up in Aberdeen?
This wouldn't be a bad idea but i would much prefer the London Scottish one. I think Pro14 with LS and LW is the way to go and i would like the season to start earlier in the summer as i also think summer rugby could be the way to go too.

Who would fund these new pro12 additions? From a Welsh perspective, I wouldn't be keen for the pie to be split 5 ways instead of 4 (WRU funding). A bit selfish maybe but we struggle enough as it is!

I assume that these two clubs get some sort of funding from the RFU. Not much, but some? They'd obviously lose that if they joined the Pro12 and left the RFU structure. But I guess they're managing to fund a squad currently so could continue to do that as is. But how will such a squad (as current) fare in a pro league? They'll need a lot of investment in players to make the team competitive. That'll cost a lot!

I guess the funding could be split in 3: 40% WRU/SRU 30% RFU and the rest from private investment. I don't see why the RFU wouldn't want to pay anything as it would allow 2 of their teams to play at a higher standard than the championship and it would be one hurdle less for a 14 team closed premiership. Could see it as a win/win situation.

I would imagine that the only way the WRU would want LW involved in if they were developing players for Wales, and if we could send players there to get game time. If they're doing that then the RFU will not pay them to do so. If they're not doing that, then I can't see the point of them joining the Pro12. We're not accessing a huge market by letting two small semi-pro clubs in, so I don't think we'll suddenly get massive broadcasting deals with these two (no offence to them). So the only benefit (for the union) is having an addition side with which to develop players.

It may be a possibility if it's combined with a deal to set up a ring fenced Premiership, keep the current clubs plus Bristol and Leeds - it's gets the litigoous and annoying London Welsh out of the way.
On the negative side I'm not sure London Irish would be very happy with large numbers of the London diaspora going to watch the Provincial sides rather than "the exiles".