Who should be next England coach

First topic message reminder :

I think most of us are agreed that Stuart Lancaster should go as England coach - but who do you want to see get the job?  I think that Stuart Lancaster has proved that you need a coach who has a proven winning track record at the top level of club or international rugby.

Lets not turn this topic into a debate about which players should be in, or Stuart Lancaster's failings, those are valid issues for other topics.  Just who you think it should be and why.

I don't think any English coach has a record of success in the European Rugby Champions/Heineken Cup, or any track record of coaching abroad.  So I would go for an overseas coach and I think we should break the bank for the best 'available' coach, which for me is Wayne Smith.  Assuming Steve Hansen does not want to step down, would Smith be satisfied as being a number 2 for another 4 years?

Simple and short - Who and Why.

doctor_grey wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Farrell has to go.

With Paul Gustard a very good option for defence coach and a desperate need to get an assistant with a more attacking mind set this is undoubtable.

Given that recent revelations seem to suggest he won't come out of the review too well I expect that if Bomber stays it will be under the condition there is a change of back room staff. Plus if someone new comes in I can't see them keeping Farrell given where is reputations has just gone.

Either way he will be gone I think.

It's clean slate time.  All need to go and start with a completely new coaching staff.  This does not imply England are starting anew as many of the players currently involved will continue to do so.  

Id agree too.

One thing that has clearly been lacking in real leadership on and off the field. For all the talk of pride in the shirt and a mental focus theyve proven time and again to be weak in the pressure games under Lancaster and Robshaw.
These are bad players, and theyve delivered some cracking perofmrances at times, but rarely in the games that really count.

I can think of them blowing grandslams and falling apart in the two winnable world cup games. Has there been an occassion in the last 4 years where theyve really stepped up a gear in a genuine crunch game? Beating NZ in an AI and getting a win in Aus were all very well ... but those were little more than exhibition games. Why is it Mike Brown decided to have his worst game in an England shirt in the most important one?

I dont see real leadership. You caould lay that on a lack of senior figures and the personalities of the players, not a lot the coaches can do about that. But the atmosphere and culture (something theyve bleated on about endlessly) is driven from the top. Its something theyve been happy to draw praise for yet in reality theyve instigated a culture of failure and flumping when it really matters. Its one thing for a bad team to play badly, but good ones should play well in the tight games ...both Aus and Wales managed to turn it up when the pressure was on them, England went cold.


When you chuck in all the talk of dressing room splits and the various players theyve fallen out with overt he years it looks like this coaching team idoesnt have a grip on their squad or the ability to command resppect and draw the best from those players.

Selections and tactics aside, you need to get the guys on the pitch delivering what they are capable of and trained to do. Im not convinced this staff is capable of that.

Its also why I want to see a real senior figure who commands the respect of the players bought in. The nearest theyve had to that in recent years was Brian Ashton, but what he bought instead was a feeble personality and blind favouritism.
So someone from outside the cosey RFU club with international credentials and a bit of dog about them. Someone whos not afraid to stick their head above the parapet.

Chuck Norris maybe?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hang about England at youth generally don't field monster teams, the packs generally been one of the smaller ones. You've also just quoted Francis who's big thing is size and power and his problem with the setup was that more technically sound players were being picked ahead of him.

Francis is big but the diff is his bulk is wasted. He gets beaten up because he's carrying 20kg of deadwood around. He needs to lose that flab and put on some muscle. He hjarks back to the days of Gareth Chilcott.

Haskell is a major frustration...on his day he is immense and a genuine destructive force on the pitch. He just doesn't do it enough on the international field. He does for Wasps however...

To answer your question...I do believe we have the players. The problem is the direction the coaches are taking the team.

I too would prefer our props to focus more on the principle roles...namely Scrummaging, ruck and mauling. Bringing real bulk and power to the game. They can still contribute to breakdowns turnovers etc...but they shouldn't be shouldered with that task.

That of course leads to a shift in the balance of the rest of the pack.

fa0019 - The first thing Gatland did was get him to lose 3 stone even though he was excelling with Exeter - Its not rocket science is it.

Jumping around your points a bit. Do we have the players or not have them. Are England obsessed with large players or did we want them fitter?

GF, who's your ideal front 5 then?

But I will still maintain....having a second row combo of Parling and Lawes is always going to leave your scrum struggling as its not exactly a scrum destroying combo!

RubyGuby wrote:fa0019 - The first thing Gatland did was get him to lose 3 stone even though he was excelling with Exeter - Its not rocket science is it.

Look, picking Francis up might long term be a smart piece of business. He could turn into a brilliant international prop. But that is far from guaranteed and takes time. Right now it still seems an act driven by desperation rather than genius, because so far from what I have seen he's been average at best, when I have seen him at all.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jumping around your points a bit. Do we have the players or not have them. Are England obsessed with large players or did we want them fitter?

GF, who's your ideal front 5 then?

England have the smallest front five in tier 1 rugby. Not 1 player over 120kg, coming in at about 560kg at least 20kg lighter than the next but about 30kg lighter than teams like AUS, SA, WAL.
They also have the biggest backrow averaging about 110-115kg.

Its not about being big, its about being big in the right areas and being fluid in the others.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jumping around your points a bit. Do we have the players or not have them. Are England obsessed with large players or did we want them fitter?

GF, who's your ideal front 5 then?

I just think at times theres too much emphasis on everyone in the pack doing everything, I still want to see the odd specialist in there...and props are one of them. Scrum hard. Ruck hard. Maul Hard, tackle hard. Anything else is a bonus...like turnovers.

As for my ideal front five...im not sure at the moment....

The problem is not with grass roots rugby in England, we've arguably had the best U20 side since the U20 WC began.

We're very close to being a fantastic side, we just need a bit of direction. It's such an exciting job as we have the best group of youngsters in world rugby.

lostinwales wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:fa0019 - The first thing Gatland did was get him to lose 3 stone even though he was excelling with Exeter - Its not rocket science is it.

Look, picking Francis up might long term be a smart piece of business. He could turn into a brilliant international prop. But that is far from guaranteed and takes time. Right now it still seems an act driven by desperation rather than genius, because so far from what I have seen he's been average at best, when I have seen him at all.

Well you seem to be a little at odds with the rest of the Aviva Premiership pundits who have him in their team of the season


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/may/17/premiership-rugby-union-team-of-the-season who didn't make it into any of the academies

3 Tomas Francis (Exeter)

There are plenty of big name tightheads out there but none physically bigger than the 21st Francis, snapped up from Doncaster. He played in all but two of the Chiefs’ games and is already on Wales’s radar, always assuming England do not make a last-gasp bid to lure the Yorkshireman back into the fold.

I don't think it was Gatland that inspired the 3st weight loss, this was him moving to a professional set-up in Exeter.

RubyGuby wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:fa0019 - The first thing Gatland did was get him to lose 3 stone even though he was excelling with Exeter - Its not rocket science is it.

Look, picking Francis up might long term be a smart piece of business. He could turn into a brilliant international prop. But that is far from guaranteed and takes time. Right now it still seems an act driven by desperation rather than genius, because so far from what I have seen he's been average at best, when I have seen him at all.

Well you seem to be a little at odds with the rest of the Aviva Premiership pundits who have him in their team of the season


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/may/17/premiership-rugby-union-team-of-the-season who didn't make it into any of the academies

3 Tomas Francis (Exeter)

There are plenty of big name tightheads out there but none physically bigger than the 21st Francis, snapped up from Doncaster. He played in all but two of the Chiefs’ games and is already on Wales’s radar, always assuming England do not make a last-gasp bid to lure the Yorkshireman back into the fold.

Thats different. Fat boys have to actually run in international games. All that shows is that there may be potential for the bigger stage.

lostinwales wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:fa0019 - The first thing Gatland did was get him to lose 3 stone even though he was excelling with Exeter - Its not rocket science is it.

Look, picking Francis up might long term be a smart piece of business. He could turn into a brilliant international prop. But that is far from guaranteed and takes time. Right now it still seems an act driven by desperation rather than genius, because so far from what I have seen he's been average at best, when I have seen him at all.

Well you seem to be a little at odds with the rest of the Aviva Premiership pundits who have him in their team of the season


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/may/17/premiership-rugby-union-team-of-the-season who didn't make it into any of the academies

3 Tomas Francis (Exeter)

There are plenty of big name tightheads out there but none physically bigger than the 21st Francis, snapped up from Doncaster. He played in all but two of the Chiefs’ games and is already on Wales’s radar, always assuming England do not make a last-gasp bid to lure the Yorkshireman back into the fold.

Thats different. Fat boys have to actually run in international games. All that shows is that there may be potential for the bigger stage.

And I wonder why they fail to achieve - you enjoy your discussion lads - it could go on for a while

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think it was Gatland that inspired the 3st weight loss, this was him moving to a professional set-up in Exeter.

Spot on Sgt

RubyGuby wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:fa0019 - The first thing Gatland did was get him to lose 3 stone even though he was excelling with Exeter - Its not rocket science is it.

Look, picking Francis up might long term be a smart piece of business. He could turn into a brilliant international prop. But that is far from guaranteed and takes time. Right now it still seems an act driven by desperation rather than genius, because so far from what I have seen he's been average at best, when I have seen him at all.

Well you seem to be a little at odds with the rest of the Aviva Premiership pundits who have him in their team of the season


http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/may/17/premiership-rugby-union-team-of-the-season who didn't make it into any of the academies

3 Tomas Francis (Exeter)

There are plenty of big name tightheads out there but none physically bigger than the 21st Francis, snapped up from Doncaster. He played in all but two of the Chiefs’ games and is already on Wales’s radar, always assuming England do not make a last-gasp bid to lure the Yorkshireman back into the fold.

Thats different. Fat boys have to actually run in international games. All that shows is that there may be potential for the bigger stage.

And I wonder why they fail to achieve - you enjoy your discussion lads - it could go on for a while

Well Francis has played a few times for you. I don't pay attention to every game Wales plays so tell me if he's had a good performance yet?

Look - take the example of the oversize Adam Jones. He became a very dominant scrumager at international level but it took a few seasons of being average (and a lot of work) to get him to that point.

And to counteract the size argument Francis is a lot bigger than Marler, who had him for breakfast

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jumping around your points a bit. Do we have the players or not have them. Are England obsessed with large players or did we want them fitter?

GF, who's your ideal front 5 then?

England have the smallest front five in tier 1 rugby. Not 1 player over 120kg, coming in at about 560kg at least 20kg lighter than the next but about 30kg lighter than teams like AUS, SA, WAL.
They also have the biggest backrow averaging about 110-115kg.

Its not about being big, its about being big in the right areas and being fluid in the others.

Agree with all this about the need to be 'big in the right areas'. I don't care too much for statistics on weight etc for players as they are blown massively out of proportion a lot of the time. If we want consistent solidity at set piece, something this side needs to get the ball needed for expansive rugby, then we need some more bulk in the tight 5.

As for changes in the front 5:

1.Marler
2.George
3.Wilson
4.Launchbury
5.Slater

George adds a big lump in the middle.

Wilson was ridiculously underused at the RWC with Cole struggling and Brookes not capable of starting - he isn't a fancy prop but he offers consistent strong scrummaging at TH and some bulk around the park

In the second row Launchbury showed his class at the RWC and needs to start. Next to him Slater offers some ballast at scrum time, power around the park and vitally a destructive ball carrier in our tight 5. Alternatively Matt Symons in a big unit but at 6'8'' is also a line-out target - I wouldn't be surprised to see him work his way into contention very quickly. Or going for third time lucky, Kitchener is another big unit who showed is line-out prowess last year and would maintain the athleticism that our current locks offer whilst providing more bulk and power in the tight.

Wilson needs to find some fitness. Looked really out of sorts in the training session I saw, struggling with his back.

IMO Cole has not been great since coming back from his injury/surgery. And certainly in the RWC series he spent most of his time power-napping whilst leaning on the edge of rucks. He was a good example of how the pack under-performed tbh. He needs to spend time returning to form at his club before he troubles the test side again.

I think its quite clear what need is a coach who doesnt spend all day arguing whether grapes have pips or not on the internet and actaully gets on with answering the question that was asked.

I think the whole lot of them need to return to their clubs and get back to business.

Some of the players looked out of shape to me...like they had lost weight (Cole) and some had put it on...(Robshaw etc), whilst most were blatantly out of form.

We'll see how everyone goes this season.

Players like Slater have injury issues which they need to get over but if he gets back to form...hes a great alrounder like Launchbury but with more bulk. Kitchener brings your lineout man...but also a huge physical presence.

Then you have players like Scott Wilson, Sinkler, Stooke etc etc young kids who suffered second season syndrome / injuries etc. How will they perform this season. Scott has been very impressive in the preseason for example.

Then you have the young pretenders....Itoje, Auterac. Their names being bounded about. Lets see how they cope in the first couple of months in the prem this season. Then we can start to put together packs.

Its all ifs and buts....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think it was Gatland that inspired the 3st weight loss, this was him moving to a professional set-up in Exeter.

Spot on Sgt

Yeah Spot on


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rugby-world-cup-2015-how-9942497

When he first turned up in the Wales camp, Tomas Francis weighed in at 21-stone. Now Warren Gatland has described him as 'in good shape.'
New Wales prop Tomas Francis has lost well over a stone in weight this summer, coach Warren Gatland has revealed.

The Exeter tighthead will win his first cap against Ireland in Dublin on Saturday as reward for the huge effort he has put in during training over the past couple of months.

He was well over 21-stone when he first linked up with the squad during the Six Nations, but he has slimmed down significantly since then and is now ready to step into the Test arena.



What is it with you guys, can't you just accept some things

Gooseberry wrote:I think its quite clear what need is a coach who doesnt spend all day arguing whether grapes have pips or not on the internet and actaully gets on with answering the question that was asked.

Gooseberrys actually have too many pips.

Rather interesting topic you've brought up there

What is it with you guys, can't you just accept some things

Nope

GeordieFalcon wrote:

What is it with you guys, can't you just accept some things

Nope

At least that's honest GF

Jesus! Boris is in Tokyo showing England what they've been missing.

Now that's f**king passion with a capital B!!

SecretFly wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:I think its quite clear what need is a coach who doesnt spend all day arguing whether grapes have pips or not on the internet and actaully gets on with answering the question that was asked.

Gooseberrys actually have too many pips.  

Rather interesting topic you've brought up there

Are you taking the pips?

RubyGuby wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think it was Gatland that inspired the 3st weight loss, this was him moving to a professional set-up in Exeter.

Spot on Sgt

Yeah Spot on


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rugby-world-cup-2015-how-9942497

When he first turned up in the Wales camp, Tomas Francis weighed in at 21-stone. Now Warren Gatland has described him as 'in good shape.'
New Wales prop Tomas Francis has lost well over a stone in weight this summer, coach Warren Gatland has revealed.

The Exeter tighthead will win his first cap against Ireland in Dublin on Saturday as reward for the huge effort he has put in during training over the past couple of months.

He was well over 21-stone when he first linked up with the squad during the Six Nations, but he has slimmed down significantly since then and is now ready to step into the Test arena.



What is it with you guys, can't you just accept some things

You said Gatland made him lose 3 stone, where in that quote does it say that? Are you suggesting he's now 18 stone?

Weight loss or not, Francis has struggled at International level. Maybe that's because Jenkins is such a poor scrummager, I'm not sure.

Little ironic that a Welsh poster is giving us scrum advice despite us hammering them in the set piece. Are there no Fijians on here?

RubyGuby wrote:
He was well over 21-stone when he first linked up with Wales

Actually he was 21st rather than well over. Meanwhile he was 25st when at Doncaster - so I reckon Exeter have hade some part to play in his slimmig down.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:IMO Cole has not been great since coming back from his injury/surgery. And certainly in the RWC series he spent most of his time power-napping whilst leaning on the edge of rucks. He was a good example of how the pack under-performed tbh. He needs to spend time returning to form at his club before he troubles the test side again.

I agree Cole needs to refind form. Just saying that from watching him and Wilson at the same time - Wilson needs it even more.

LondonTiger wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:
He was well over 21-stone when he first linked up with Wales

Actually he was 21st rather than well over. Meanwhile he was 25st when at Doncaster - so I reckon Exeter have hade some part to play in his slimmig down.

Whoever told him to slim down is hardly a genius are they? Pro sportsman in a cardio heavy sport weighing 20+ stone clearly needs to slim down!

Agree on Wilson LT.

He was poor back end of the season and the scrum didn't look as dominant when he replaced Cole last week.

I think we'll see a stronger scrum with Youngs replaced tbh. Cole wasn't as bad as some made out on here, it was mainly Marler that got pinged.

Thing with Cole and Wilson is that continuous rugby broke Cole's body as his neck gave way. So wilson was rushed back from his (hamstring?) strain and eventually his back went, so Cole was rushed back from his neck surgery.

LondonTiger wrote:

Barney McGrew did it wrote:IMO Cole has not been great since coming back from his injury/surgery. And certainly in the RWC series he spent most of his time power-napping whilst leaning on the edge of rucks. He was a good example of how the pack under-performed tbh. He needs to spend time returning to form at his club before he troubles the test side again.

I agree Cole needs to refind form.  Just saying that from watching him and Wilson at the same time - Wilson needs it even more.

If Davey was still struggling with injury then it could have been a blessing in disguise that he wasn't involved in any RWC games.

Hopefully it will mean he comes back fresher with Bath and finds some form. Or alternatively Henry Thomas could take his chance to seize a starting berth and keep showing improvement at set piece in addition to his skills with ball in hand.

I would like to see Auterac and thomas get a good run at Bath this season

RubyGuby wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

What is it with you guys, can't you just accept some things

Nope

At least that's honest GF

Always am dude

The question then needs to be asked...why did Lancaster take TWO unfit TH's???? Why not take Thomas who has been in the squad all the way through?
At least Thomas is 100% fit.

Floggin Cole (and Robshaw ) etc is an example of lancasters problems. man and player management.

Robshaw has played near every game for 80 mins. That raises two thing...first that he isn't rested in lower games.
and 2 you don't get a chance to see who can fill in. Kvesic is causing a huge debate over his ability. Had Lancaster had a look at him in some games whilst resting Robshaw then we would have the answer to that! Likewise other positions.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The question then needs to be asked...why did Lancaster take TWO unfit TH's???? Why not take Thomas who has been in the squad all the way through?
At least Thomas is 100% fit.

Floggin Cole (and Robshaw ) etc is an example of lancasters problems. man and player management.

Robshaw has played near every game for 80 mins. That raises two thing...first that he isn't rested in lower games.
and 2 you don't get a chance to see who can fill in. Kvesic is causing a huge debate over his ability. Had Lancaster had a look at him in some games whilst resting Robshaw then we would have the answer to that! Likewise other positions.

Add one lock and one no.8 . Lawes didn't look right at all. Neither did Morgan

screamingaddabs wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:
He was well over 21-stone when he first linked up with Wales

Actually he was 21st rather than well over. Meanwhile he was 25st when at Doncaster - so I reckon Exeter have hade some part to play in his slimmig down.

Whoever told him to slim down is hardly a genius are they?  Pro sportsman in a cardio heavy sport weighing 20+ stone clearly needs to slim down!

Lance Corporal Chris Budgen dislikes this discussion

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:The question then needs to be asked...why did Lancaster take TWO unfit TH's???? Why not take Thomas who has been in the squad all the way through?
At least Thomas is 100% fit.

Floggin Cole (and Robshaw ) etc is an example of lancasters problems. man and player management.

Robshaw has played near every game for 80 mins. That raises two thing...first that he isn't rested in lower games.
and 2 you don't get a chance to see who can fill in. Kvesic is causing a huge debate over his ability. Had Lancaster had a look at him in some games whilst resting Robshaw then we would have the answer to that! Likewise other positions.

Add one lock and one no.8 . Lawes didn't look right at all. Neither did Morgan

Absolutely LIW

Yes risk the odd player....but not half our pack. He should have taken Hartley judging on these decisions....

Gooseberry wrote:

screamingaddabs wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:
He was well over 21-stone when he first linked up with Wales

Actually he was 21st rather than well over. Meanwhile he was 25st when at Doncaster - so I reckon Exeter have hade some part to play in his slimmig down.

Whoever told him to slim down is hardly a genius are they?  Pro sportsman in a cardio heavy sport weighing 20+ stone clearly needs to slim down!

Lance Corporal Chris Budgen dislikes this discussion

Ah yes, international prop Chris Budgen. Wait a minute...

If the second-row is re-ballasted with for example Slater, Kitchener or even Attwood this leaves the line-out ability a little down on Parling/Lawes.  

One remedy would be to have some line-out capability in the back-row.  This is currently provided by Wood though Robshaw has also been used.  But if we retain Vunipola and try Kvesic  neither of whom will ever be a line-out "champions", then the third member of the back-row should have this ability.

What options exist: Wood, Robshaw (as blindside), Croft, Itoje possibly?

Should England try say for example Launchbury there since he plays a bit like a flanker.

I thought Kitchener ran the Tigers lineout when Parling wasn't there (and I'm guessing is doing it now he left).

Kitch ran the lineout last season, even when Parling was playing. I know I am biased but I feel he was the best lineout operator in the AP last year - certainly he had the most steals while the fact that tom Youngs was officially the most accurate hooker at LO time in last seasons AP means he must have been pretty good on our throw.

Add in that Kitch is 19st plus...you have quite a player...

Even Brad Thorn recons!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11348188/Graham-Kitchener-is-Englands-next-big-thing-who-would-have-been-an-All-Black-by-now-if-he-was-a-New-Zealander.html

GeordieFalcon wrote:Add in that Kitch is 19st plus...you have quite a player...

Even Brad Thorn recons!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11348188/Graham-Kitchener-is-Englands-next-big-thing-who-would-have-been-an-All-Black-by-now-if-he-was-a-New-Zealander.html

I always take those sort of pronouncements from a player looking to ingratiate themselves a little with several pinches of salt.

And if you need to add a back rower with lineout capability then maybe keep Wood in there or maybe Burgess will be up and running at Bath.

I also think itoje's name keeps coming up for this reason. But theres no rush with him.

Ill say again - Australia had Pocock and Hooper at 7 & 8 - hardly touching the skies are they....

To be fair, Fardy and the second rows are good options for the Aussies

Goes back to our favourite word ... balance

GeordieFalcon wrote:And if you need to add a back rower with lineout capability then maybe keep Wood in there or maybe Burgess will be up and running at Bath.

I also think itoje's name keeps coming up for this reason. But theres no rush with him.

Ill say again - Australia had Pocock and Hooper at 7 & 8 - hardly touching the skies are they....

You don't need more than 3 jumpers and if you have 2 locks and a tall blindside ala Croft, Wood etc. England in 03 had a great lineout with 6'2 Hill, 6'4 Dillaglio and 5'10 Back. SA hardly throw to anyone bar the middle jumper yet they have the best lineout in the game. Its not necessarily about everyone being 6'5 (helps but disguise will always beat brute strength and size).

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jumping around your points a bit. Do we have the players or not have them. Are England obsessed with large players or did we want them fitter?

GF, who's your ideal front 5 then?

England have the smallest front five in tier 1 rugby. Not 1 player over 120kg, coming in at about 560kg at least 20kg lighter than the next but about 30kg lighter than teams like AUS, SA, WAL.
They also have the biggest backrow averaging about 110-115kg.

Its not about being big, its about being big in the right areas and being fluid in the others.

But what does it really matter? Performance by the pack has been good against some of the best packs out there in recent times. Similar packs have beaten Wales and Aus. We lost these times won others, thats sport. Come 6Ns there ll be a couple of changes but there always would be as time doesn't stand still.