QF1: South Africa v Wales, 17 October

First topic message reminder :

       
SOUTH AFRICA v WALES

17 October 2015
16:00 BST (UTC+01)
Twickenham, London

Live on expensive telly

Ref: Wayne Barnes (England)
ARs: George Clancy (Ireland) and JP Doyle (England)
TMO: Graham Hughes (England)

A. Head to Head

30 Played 30
27 Won 2
1 Drawn 1
2 Lost 27
814 Points 440

B. Recent Form

29 November 2014
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
12–6 to Wales

21 June 2014
Mbombela Stadium, Nelspruit
31–30 to South Africa

14 June 2014
Growthpoint Kings Park, Durban
38–16 to South Africa

9 November 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
15–24 to South Africa

11 September 2011
Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington
17–16 to South Africa

13 November 2010
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
25–29 to South Africa

5 June 2010
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
31–34 to South Africa

8 November 2008
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
15–20 to South Africa

C. TEAMS:
SOUTH AFRICA

Le Roux; Pietersen, Kriel, De Allende, Habana; Pollard, Du Preez (capt); Mtawarira, B du Plessis, Malherbe; De Jager, Etzebeth; Burger, Louw, Vermeulen.

Replacements: Strauss for Du Plessis (55), Nyakane for Tendai Mtawarira (56), J Du Plessis for Malherbe (60), Du Toit for Etzebeth (67), Alberts for Louw (67), Lambie for Pollard (76), Serfontein for Kriel (67), Pienaar (unused).


WALES

Anscombe; Cuthbert, Morgan, Roberts, North; Biggar, G Davies; Jenkins, Baldwin, Lee; Charteris, AW Jones; Lydiate, Warburton (capt), Faletau.

Replacements: Owens for Baldwin (56), James for Jenkins (55), Francis for Lee (55), Davies for Charteris (63), Tipuric for Lydiate (67), L Williams for G Davies (70), Priestland for Biggar (73), Hook for Morgan (67).

Least he has a win vs South Africa. Was surprised to find that that end of season, not in the IRB window, mess of a match counts as an official game.

kingraf wrote:Least he has a win vs South Africa. Was surprised to find that that end of season, not in the IRB window, mess of a match counts as an official game.

End of term chuck about that was.

kingraf wrote:Least he has a win vs South Africa. Was surprised to find that that end of season, not in the IRB window, mess of a match counts as an official game.

So do scotland so its not saying much

You cut deep TJ, you cut deep.

kingraf wrote:You cut deep TJ, you cut deep.

Commiserations Wales.

I think if we (England) had been in your place today we would have been thumped. There's no way we could have defended with the aggression and heart that you did, and we definitely wouldn't have made those turn overs.

Role on the 6Ns and the important rugby

It was a truly incredible defensive display, perhaps the greatest Welsh defence since Rorke's Drift.

Anscombe though owes his team some drinks as too often Wales defended so well, secured the turnover only for Anscombe to kick aimlessly down field and allow the siege to start again.

yappysnap wrote:Commiserations Wales.

I think if we (England) had been in your place today we would have been thumped. There's no way we could have defended with the aggression and heart that you did, and we definitely wouldn't have made those turn overs.

Role on the 6Ns and the important rugby

LondonTiger wrote:It was a truly incredible defensive display, perhaps the greatest Welsh defence since Rorke's Drift.

Anscombe though owes his team some drinks as too often Wales defended so well, secured the turnover only for Anscombe to kick aimlessly down field and allow the siege to start again.

Our kicking game overall wasn't at its best today.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:so what is Gatlands record vs SH opposition?

Your post belongs in the joke thread.

It's that bad is it?

Worse than that even.

Congratulations Corne, Cesc... protea!
Commiserations to all Wales fans. You are still the most dangerous 6N team (along with Ireland), imo.  

The Loaded Dog wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:so what is Gatlands record vs SH opposition?

Your post belongs in the joke thread.

It's that bad is it?

Worse than that even.

Congratulations Corne, Cesc... protea!
Commiserations to all Wales fans. You are still the most dangerous 6N team (along with Ireland), imo.  

With bigger at 10 I have to agree

Yeah, he's made for these big games.

I wonder is it anymore of a prize for SA to go on to meet that All Black side. Hard luck Wales, you have been excellent in this tournament despite terrible disruptions. Biggar for me is now the top 10 in the NH. Back to strength in the 6N I can see you at the top.

Just got in. Christ, how sad am I posting on the Internet at this time?! Well, I guess that implicates us all.

Well deserved win SA. Biltong, Fa (I think?!)), et al., well done gents. There was no way we could just absorb wave after wave of attack. The main difference was the ruck area: you cleared out past the ruck and we hit the ruck stood still. And this it one of the main differences and deficiencies of NH rugby: we just can't clear PAST the ruck. SH rugby blasts the ruck, clears it out. We stand there like lemons.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:It was a truly incredible defensive display, perhaps the greatest Welsh defence since Rorke's Drift.

Anscombe though owes his team some drinks as too often Wales defended so well, secured the turnover only for Anscombe to kick aimlessly down field and allow the siege to start again.

Our kicking game overall wasn't at its best today.

Wales lacked ambitions at least a couple of times after turnovers, kicking aimlessly when it was on..

VinceWLB wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:It was a truly incredible defensive display, perhaps the greatest Welsh defence since Rorke's Drift.

Anscombe though owes his team some drinks as too often Wales defended so well, secured the turnover only for Anscombe to kick aimlessly down field and allow the siege to start again.

Our kicking game overall wasn't at its best today.

Wales lacked ambitions at least a couple of times after turnovers, kicking aimlessly when it was on..

And when we had ambition we got f@ucked at the rucks because, as always, we are absolute puss@ys. Seriously. We couldn't drive a froth off a latte. You can't expect to compete at this level like that.

Many will claim a moral victory in the close loss. I'm annoyed at playing into SA hands. Every time we got the ball and tried to build phases we went backwards (after we were up early on). But after the first 20 mins or so, with our quite successful varied play (e.g. Chips over the top), we gave up and tried to smash it instead.

VinceWLB wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:It was a truly incredible defensive display, perhaps the greatest Welsh defence since Rorke's Drift.

Anscombe though owes his team some drinks as too often Wales defended so well, secured the turnover only for Anscombe to kick aimlessly down field and allow the siege to start again.

Our kicking game overall wasn't at its best today.

Wales lacked ambitions at least a couple of times after turnovers, kicking aimlessly when it was on..

I don't think it was lacking ambition. I think they knew they didn't have that much pace and if they could get south Africa pegged back inv their half they could force a try through the forwards.

mckay1402 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:It was a truly incredible defensive display, perhaps the greatest Welsh defence since Rorke's Drift.

Anscombe though owes his team some drinks as too often Wales defended so well, secured the turnover only for Anscombe to kick aimlessly down field and allow the siege to start again.

Our kicking game overall wasn't at its best today.

Wales lacked ambitions at least a couple of times after turnovers, kicking aimlessly when it was on..

I don't think it was lacking ambition.  I think they knew they didn't have that much pace and if they could get south Africa pegged back inv their half they could force a try through the forwards.

Its a deliberate tactic. Wales always kick if they have possession in their own half. ALWAYS

TJ wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:It was a truly incredible defensive display, perhaps the greatest Welsh defence since Rorke's Drift.

Anscombe though owes his team some drinks as too often Wales defended so well, secured the turnover only for Anscombe to kick aimlessly down field and allow the siege to start again.

Our kicking game overall wasn't at its best today.

Wales lacked ambitions at least a couple of times after turnovers, kicking aimlessly when it was on..

I don't think it was lacking ambition.  I think they knew they didn't have that much pace and if they could get south Africa pegged back inv their half they could force a try through the forwards.

Its a deliberate tactic.  Wales always kick if they have possession in their own half.  ALWAYS

Technically not ALWAYS, but often. ALWAYS suggests 100%, which it isn't.

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:It was a truly incredible defensive display, perhaps the greatest Welsh defence since Rorke's Drift.

Anscombe though owes his team some drinks as too often Wales defended so well, secured the turnover only for Anscombe to kick aimlessly down field and allow the siege to start again.

Our kicking game overall wasn't at its best today.

Wales lacked ambitions at least a couple of times after turnovers, kicking aimlessly when it was on..

I don't think it was lacking ambition.  I think they knew they didn't have that much pace and if they could get south Africa pegged back inv their half they could force a try through the forwards.

Its a deliberate tactic.  Wales always kick if they have possession in their own half.  ALWAYS

Technically not ALWAYS, but often. ALWAYS suggests 100%, which it isn't.

Anscombe was poor, but I suppose he is 3rd choice at 15, I would have preferred to see Dan Evans play.

I thought Anscombe was all right to day to be honest. Biggar must surely of benn in contention for Man of the Match before he was taken off.

Like they say, so close, but no cigar.

I just don' t get it. Cuthbert dropped in 6ns brought back for WC plays nearly every minute drops the ball every time it's passed to him penalised several times misses tackles and loose ball carded. If anyone was going to lose us the game it was him and Gatland won't sub hiim. Lloyd Williams fact streaks down the wing delivers killer pass inch perfect on the hoof. Why why why. Saw a flash of the old Cuthbert jinking past 3 but that was it. After the game Wales turned out for a farewell walk and wave to the fans, Cuthbert trailed alone at the back. Don't get it at all

Gatland destroyed him?

He honestly does look a crestfallen player. Pushed too hard to be a utility defensive player rather than an instinctive attacker.

Feel sad for him. His face is beaten to bits and he's a shadow of his storming confident self (at least at International).

For me Cutbert had a great couple of years and scored some great try's when put into space but he is now revealing much of his true limited self in many other aspects of the game and he is not a natural footballer. As a consequence I have invented a new term based on Cuthberts performances over the years:

"Form is Temporary, Crap is Permanent"

Watched the game round a friends and just got in. Gutted for the loss. I know there are things that could have gone better, or that were fluffed, but at least your guys played with heart. It gets you far (if not as far as you would like). I just don't see England playing with it. Anyway, commiserations.

Hard lines Wales, with a depleted squad I think it would have been a miracle to have progressed. But if you'd got through I don't think anyone could have argued with it. Very brave effort, possibly deserved a little better. Good to see one NH team showing up with a bit of heart

I don't know how South Africa really got that one as again they were clinging, clinging - one brilliant stab at a try - at the very pace required to make it a success was about all that separated the sides.
Gatland - if he stays - simply needs more subtlety in the gameplan at times to keep sides guessing.  Gone are the days when Wales can bully a side with collision stuff for 80.  It's doing them more harm than the enemy.  They batter themselves senseless and then see games slide away.

But you have to admire that dogged Welsh F**K You!!! Spirit.  Every side could do with a sprinkling of it but in virtually every game they play, the Welsh have it on tap in abundance.

Fly,

I don't think they were clinging at all, they were totally dominant in the 2nd half and we just never got into their half to even try and force a few errors that might have given us a pop at goal.

Griff wrote:Just got in. Christ, how sad am I posting on the Internet at this time?! Well, I guess that implicates us all.

Well deserved win SA. Biltong, Fa (I think?!)), et al., well done gents. There was no way we could just absorb wave after wave of attack. The main difference was the ruck area: you cleared out past the ruck and we hit the ruck stood still. And this it one of the main differences and deficiencies of NH rugby: we just can't clear PAST the ruck. SH rugby blasts the ruck, clears it out. We stand there like lemons.

Agree 110% Griff and was screaming the exact thing at the TV down pub, we just weren't clearing the ruck out and getting isolated far to often. People will blame certain thing (mainly Barnes or Cuthbert) but we had one of our most experienced teams out there and a first choice pack, Barnes gave them enough warning yet we just didn't adapt to the way he was reffing the game.

Wales have got to be proud of the tournament.

Half of the first XV crippled and still came within a sparrow's fart of getting a semi-final berth.

The really big question for Wales fans now is whether Gatland has taken this side as far as he can given the years he has had and whether to get that extra 5-10% which means regularly beating SANZAR opposition will necessitate changing the coach.

I'm no a bird expert like Georgie, but I agree wales must be proud. Great stuff.
Awesome match. Both sides very good.

George Carlin wrote:Wales have got to be proud of the tournament.

Half of the first XV crippled and still came within a sparrow's fart of getting a semi-final berth.

The really big question for Wales fans now is whether Gatland has taken this side as far as he can given the years he has had and whether to get that extra 5-10% which means regularly beating SANZAR opposition will necessitate changing the coach.

I think Gatland has shown his class at this tournament. He has performed well with Selection in the most adverse conditions, his tactics have been good at dealing with the opposition and the team seemed well prepared prior and during the tournament.

Wales looked like they could win every game, when the scrum creaked, they sorted it out.

The change going forward I would like them to find a more creative inside centre a new loosehead prop with Geths Dynamism and james Scrummaging power and a back up to Dan Biggar.

Well done SA, from the depths of depression felt after losing to Japan, you guys have really turned it around. Got a very big task next weekend...

Wales made 189 tackles made to the Springboks' 101.

Dan Lydiate made 21 in just 67 minutes, Sam Warburton and Taulupe Faletau with 17 apiece, Alun Wyn Jones 15, Luke Charteris 14 and Jamie Roberts 12.

Hard men.

Well done Wales, they got very close. Its kind of a predictable outcome though... Wales come close, within a score but can't hold on.

I would say that I felt they played too much percentage rugby though and rather than go out to actually win the match I felt they played a game to keep in it with a longshot at victory. I just don't think they stretched the boks or asked enough.

I've never really seen a bok team lose an arm wrestle. Jonno's England managed it for a few years. NZ and AUS and recently Ireland don't tend to get involved. heroic but I think it was the wrong way to play them. Don't play to their strengths.

Can't believe the criticisms at Gatland on here after those 2 performances against SA and Aus with such a depleted team. Factor in Liam W Scott W Foxy Davies 1/2p and Amos and we would be more dynamic . Well played lads you did us all proud

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:It was a truly incredible defensive display, perhaps the greatest Welsh defence since Rorke's Drift.

Anscombe though owes his team some drinks as too often Wales defended so well, secured the turnover only for Anscombe to kick aimlessly down field and allow the siege to start again.

Our kicking game overall wasn't at its best today.

Wales lacked ambitions at least a couple of times after turnovers, kicking aimlessly when it was on..

I don't think it was lacking ambition.  I think they knew they didn't have that much pace and if they could get south Africa pegged back inv their half they could force a try through the forwards.

Its a deliberate tactic.  Wales always kick if they have possession in their own half.  ALWAYS

Technically not ALWAYS, but often. ALWAYS suggests 100%, which it isn't.

I didn't see them once yesterday try to play the ball out of their own half - sometimes a couple of phases to set up the kick and North tried to run it back once - but it was still kicked after that

HammerofThunor wrote:Watched the game round a friends and just got in. Gutted for the loss. I know there are things that could have gone better, or that were fluffed, but at least your guys played with heart. It gets you far (if not as far as you would like). I just don't see England playing with it. Anyway, commiserations.

Certainly played with great heart - the defensive effort was immense given how one sided the stats were SA should have been out of sight

TJ wrote:

Griff wrote:

TJ wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:It was a truly incredible defensive display, perhaps the greatest Welsh defence since Rorke's Drift.

Anscombe though owes his team some drinks as too often Wales defended so well, secured the turnover only for Anscombe to kick aimlessly down field and allow the siege to start again.

Our kicking game overall wasn't at its best today.

Wales lacked ambitions at least a couple of times after turnovers, kicking aimlessly when it was on..

I don't think it was lacking ambition.  I think they knew they didn't have that much pace and if they could get south Africa pegged back inv their half they could force a try through the forwards.

Its a deliberate tactic.  Wales always kick if they have possession in their own half.  ALWAYS

Technically not ALWAYS, but often. ALWAYS suggests 100%, which it isn't.

I didn't see them once yesterday try to play the ball out of their own half - sometimes a couple of phases to set up the kick and North tried to run it back once - but it was still kicked after that

Perhaps it was your wording then. Your sentence above reads to me that Wales ALWAYS kick the ball in their own half in ALL games. It didn't sound like you were just referring to yesterday's game.

Just rewatching the match...

Luke Charteris as responsible for 12 of SA's 15 points up till 44 mins, and commanding Barnes attention at every breakdown for some reason!

Anscombe has been awful...

Wild, running up dark alleys, totally headless

Fanster wrote:Anscombe has been awful...

Wild, running up dark alleys, totally headless

Hardly surprising given his amount of time as an international FB - We came close with a depleted team and maybe could have won it - great effort against another strong side

RubyGuby wrote:

Fanster wrote:Anscombe has been awful...

Wild, running up dark alleys, totally headless

Hardly surprising given his amount of time as an international FB - We came close with a depleted team and maybe could have won it - great effort against another strong side

Don't get me wrong, not slating the team, 55 mins in and just noticing some key aspects.

Cuthbert also is either really unlucky that every kick to hs side of the park is poor, or his chase is dire, he never makes a tackle and always gets beat by the receiver.

Fanster wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

Fanster wrote:Anscombe has been awful...

Wild, running up dark alleys, totally headless

Hardly surprising given his amount of time as an international FB - We came close with a depleted team and maybe could have won it - great effort against another strong side

Don't get me wrong, not slating the team, 55 mins in and just noticing some key aspects.

Cuthbert also is either really unlucky that every kick to hs side of the park is poor, or his chase is dire, he never makes a tackle and always gets beat by the receiver.

Anscombe won 2 SR titles as a starting fullback with the chiefs. I don't think you can say Anscombe is a novice.

Theres a 6/7 minute period where 5/6 decisions should've come for Wales, and 2/3 went to SA when it ws the other way round, 66-72 mins, resulting in unplayable at the ruck, ball awarded to SA instead of Wales who were in posession.

Fanster wrote:Theres a 6/7 minute period where 5/6 decisions should've come for Wales, and 2/3 went to SA when it ws the other way round, 66-72 mins, resulting in unplayable at the ruck, ball awarded to SA instead of Wales who were in posession.

This

Well, it seems we were a tad fortunate to win, so all thanks to Wayne Barnes, now we just need to be fortunate two more times

And that last turnover on 80 mins, Straus lying on his back, wrestles the ball out of the presenters hands and throws it to his side of the ruck...

Such tiny margins, decent game, 2 very powerful packs.

Congrats SA

I honestly do not believe that Barnes had a bad game. Sure he got some decisions wrong (IMO) but he certainly didn't favour any side. Wales simply didn't adjust to him as well as SA did.

Gatland and Edwards to stay Howley and McBryde to go

eirebilly wrote:I honestly do not believe that Barnes had a bad game. Sure he got some decisions wrong (IMO) but he certainly didn't favour any side. Wales simply didn't adjust to him as well as SA did.

I think Barnes was good, he's been on a great curve the last 18 months, his use of TMO etc is superb!

My point was just to highlight how tight the match was, and given the 2nd hand posession stats you can't really blame Barnes for the peception that SA were stronger at the breakdown, which they were.

There were just 4/5 occasions he realistically could've given Wales a penalty for a number of infringements he had pinged both teams for earlier in the match, then an unplayable at the ruck was given to the defending team (kind of).

Such tiny margins, both teams played outstandingly, there was very little in it! I would now like to see SA make the final but don't see them getting near NZ, hopefully i'm wrong.