How Ireland make the jump to next level

We have no Autumn Internationals in 2011 due to World Cup. Does anyone else think rather than introducing our youngsters against South African and New Zealand the next step for Ireland is to use the 6 Nations as a training ground and target away wins over the Southern Hemisphere in the summer with a full strenght squad?

Away wins are the next step for us if we are serious about progressing in the future?

Have to admit this is a wonderfully mindbending concept.

But to be honest I'm not sure I can go with it. We already send out full squads in the AIs, shouldn't we be using those instead? Ireland would lose out pretty quickly in terms of sponsors cash if the sponsors felt we didn't put 100% into the 6N.

And anyway, I've seen us win only one 6N title in my lifetime. A few more would be welcome.

6 Nations as a training ground? Um, no thanks.

But surely every game is a test match. Why is Ireland v Wales in Dublin more important that Australia v Ireland in Sydney? I know which one I'd rather us win.

our best bet of a win down under

would be if we got all our teams knocked out in the h cup and then we would have plenty of rest for the usual summer tours,

honestly i think our domestic success with the provinces prob has cost us a win down under.

But i for one wouldnt swap any of the them

I don't see how blooding loads of players will help us win- we'll blood those that are ready after the RWC (Jones, Murray, McFadden- maybe Tuohy and a few others) replacing some of the players who are likely to move on. Then that will set us up for our 2012 tour. Evolution, not revolution.

The probable answer to your question is because those tests are viewed as one-offs whereas there is a tangible trophy in the Six Nations- and what's more, it's a trophy we haven't won nearly enough!

For this RWC, I asking for this near 3 years ago when Kidney started. THEN was the time to do it. But he won us a SLAM with most of the old guys. That bought us the kudos and belief to move on.

Wholesale changes NO. Wont work. But slowly introducing the obvious talents like Jones, Murray, McFadden, Ruddock, Gilroy etc.. playing and learning amongst the seasoned, experienced pros around them in the next 6-N - would not go amiss

Darcy, BOD, POC,DOC, ROG, Horgan, Wally et al, will all be nearing their International sell-by date, after the RWC. Lets not wait until they fall off the edge and be stymied - as in the days of Steady-Eddie.. Play some of the great raw talent we have WITH them - while they are still around. It is pure logic to do so. Slowly move the old guys to the bench, as the newbies take over and grow in confidence and experience. It should be as seamless a transition as is possible. And STILL compete for the 6-N.

red_stag wrote:But surely every game is a test match. Why is Ireland v Wales in Dublin more important that Australia v Ireland in Sydney? I know which one I'd rather us win.

Taken in isolation, they are of equal importance.

But it's all about context. If the Ireland V Wales match was a championship decider (or at the very least kept Ireland in the mix for 1st) I'm sure you wouldn't be thinking about Oz.

I think the next step for Ireland is to correct the awfully one sided results we get against France. Leinster Munster and Ulster all won their home games against French opposition this year. But the national team threw away victory against France this year in Dublin. As we did in '07. We should have won both those games and we'd be building a good home record against the French.

I'm not saying we should be beating them all the time. But we should be beating them most of the time at home and nicking the odd win in Paris.
If we can do that then we can start thinking about beating teams down south.

Notch where did I mentions "loads" of changes.

I can remember how happy you guys were when you won the 6N grandslam in 09. There is no way the bulk of Irish fans would be happy treating the 6N as a training excercise.

Winning in the Southern Hemisphere is important but the 6N is the tournament I look forward to the most, even more so than the world cup.

6 Nations ranks a bit down on my list.

• World Cup

• Heineken Cup

• Lions

• Southern Hemisphere Tests

• 6 Nations

• Magners League

To be honest this reminds me of back when England won the world cup and started saying that the six nations was beneath them. It seemed quite arrogant then, and it does now, to treat the six nations as anything other than a competition worth winning.

I'm not saying beating the SH away isn't worth doing, but I think it's overly simplistic to say we'd have a better chance of succeeding if we blooded youngsters in the six nations. What happens if all these youngsters freeze under the spotlight and morale within the camp sinks? It's also very simplistic to say resting our main players would result in them being better equipped to face the summer tests. Remember 07 when our players were undercooked? I mean think about it. The last time the main players would be familiar with the Irish system would be the world cup and then you want them to be completely ready to go several months later in the summer against the best teams in the world?

It all seems a bit daft to me and I don't see it working. Finally, on a sentimental point. The best players should play for Ireland. It undermines the jersey when you give it to players who aren't the best in there position.

I wouldn't put the six nations that far down the list but I can see what you’re getting at. Ideally Ireland would dominate the tournament every year but t’isn’t going to happen.

There is an incremental way to blood new players. Look at the way Sexton has become first choice Ireland 10.

It is possible to do it a player (or a few) at a time. Neither the back three nor the back row are areas we need to blood people so we don’t need to look there but how do we introduce players and not substantually reduce the team’s impact?

mrsuperclear wrote:To be honest this reminds me of back when England won the world cup and started saying that the six nations was beneath them. It seemed quite arrogant then, and it does now, to treat the six nations as anything other than a competition worth winning.

I'm not saying beating the SH away isn't worth doing, but I think it's overly simplistic to say we'd have a better chance of succeeding if we blooded youngsters in the six nations. What happens if all these youngsters freeze under the spotlight and morale within the camp sinks? It's also very simplistic to say resting our main players would result in them being better equipped to face the summer tests. Remember 07 when our players were undercooked? I mean think about it. The last time the main players would be familiar with the Irish system would be the world cup and then you want them to be completely ready to go several months later in the summer against the best teams in the world?

It all seems a bit daft to me and I don't see it working. Finally, on a sentimental point. The best players should play for Ireland. It undermines the jersey when you give it to players who aren't the best in there position.

How extreme do you think I want to go. All I'm looking to see is half a dozen semi experienced players tried out throughout the course of tournament. It won't be like France in 2008 who gave 10 debuts in the 6 Nations. England should have been doing this when they won the World Cup. They went from best team in world to nobodies as they never thought ahead. As for the sentimental point rotation happens anyway. We just handle it badly sometimes.

I don't know how extreme you want to go Red Stag but treating the six nations as a "training ground" seems exceptionally extreme to me. I'm perfectly fine introducing players like Jones, Murray, Touhy, McFadden and whoever else if they're the best in their position. But that's not half a dozen players. If you're suggesting trying out players who are not in better form than their competitors for the jersey in key games (France/England) next year I just would never agree with it. Against the Scots or Italians, maybe as long as their not all thrown in together at once and there's a sufficient amount of "regulars" in the team. It's always good to evolve the team and bring in more players and create a squad but I don't think that needs to result in bringing half a dozen "semi experienced players" and treating the competition as a "training ground"

Post of the day to Feckless. Lets beat France more than once every 10 years and we will go along way.

The Autumn is what it is - as are the June tests. Utterly useless as a barometer.

We need to knock 2 or 3 more slams out of our team before the 2015 WC.

Then we can take it to the next level. Not before.

Success breeds success.

Success is not a triple crown + Italy.

Fair enough but I suspect from your post that me and you are acutally in agreement on this. The players I'd like to see come in:

Tom Court OUT -- Paddy McAllister IN
David Wallace OUT -- Sean O'Brien IN
Gordon Darcy OUT -- Fergus McFadden IN
Donncha O'Callaghan OUT -- Donnacha Ryan IN
Eoin Reddan OUT -- Conor Murray IN
Ronan O'Gara OUT -- Ian Keatley IN
Geordan Murphy OUT -- Felix Jones IN
Denis Leamy OUT -- Kevin McLaughlin IN

As far as I see it most of team remains. It is a training exercise but I want to see new faces appearing on the bench and in some cases on the starting XV.

Stag,

I'd suggest most are in agreement with your most recent post but I think saying the 6 Nations should be a training ground is what most people take you up on.

Yea to be honest that was me trying to be a little bit controversial. What I would say is people don't like the idea of experimenting in the 6 Nations but are happy to do it none the less

I would call it trying something new not experimentation. To me experimentation means you'd be going back to the older players afterwards.

IMHO - I think the process of blooding new players needs to be a "gradual" process - bring the odd one or two in with the old familiars and give them a sense of playing at top level rather than any wholesale replacement. Stag - you have mentioned 8 players - it would be a bit extreme in my view to drop them all in together

Stag - can't agree with you on this. If you want to experiment, use Ireland A fixtures and matches against second tier sides. The 6 Nations is not a competition for experimentation. The only coach I can think of to have done this is Lievremont, who is now rightly regarded as one of the worst rugby coaches to have ever lived.

You cite England circa 2003 as an example. That's misguided. Their weakness wasn't lack of forward planning at all, their weakness was a failure to pick the best available players. They failed to recognise when big name players were no longer performing in domestic rugby, and failed to adjust the squad accordingly. Thus the likes of Kay and Cohen were clutched onto long after their actual performances merited it. One of their strengths going into 2003 was momentum. Had they played a bunch of kids in the 6 Nations prior to the World Cup, I'm certain they'd have lost their way. They'd also have lost the benefits of players actually playing. Rest isn't always a good thing for rugby players. Some players need to play regularly in order to peak.

For Ireland to move on all they need do is pick the best players. That doesn't mean younger players, than means looking at the four Magners sides and the Irish exiles, and selecting those players who are delivering for their clubs. That's how you pick teams (and this is exactly how Australia and New Zealand do it), and I'm pretty sure you'll find that the future takes care of itself.

If you want to take a punt on a player, stick him into an A fixture or a game against the Baa Baas, NOT a match in the 6 Nations (and let's face it, you hardly stole the show this year even with your first team on the pitch).

red_stag wrote:Yea to be honest that was me trying to be a little bit controversial. What I would say is people don't like the idea of experimenting in the 6 Nations but are happy to do it none the less

I agree on the "contriversial" bit

The way to beat the SH teams is to keep winning and develop the winning habit. Irish rugby is doing well and needs to keep the momentum. If the structure is sound and youngsters are comming through the Munsters and Leinsters then it's about manageing them into the international set up.

Pick the best players available for every game - you won't win in the SH if you experiment and have a poor 6N's.

I wouldn't mind trying out 5/6 new player during the 6N. You could argue all you like but these guys need a place to start. I know the circumstances were different (Ireland had no other options back then!) but back in 2000 6 new players were given their Irish debuts. We all know who they are. I don't see the problem with trying out that may players over the course of the 6N. So all I say is,yes we need to give these guys gametime in a proper test arena. The 6N is as good a place as any to start.

Build an Empire in Eastern Europe?

Scour America for college football players with Irish sounding names?

Give out free rugby balls in maternity wards?

Embark on a programe of eugenics?

Clone BOD, Mike Gibson, Peter Clohesy, Keith Wood, Willie John McBride and Fergus Slattery?

Flood the world with cheap lamb, butter and apples bankrupting New Zealand?

Any thoughts on dampening or removing the Irish psyche from the collective? That is, the plucky side who will prefer to be viewed as underdogs.

I know the coaching ticket has a number of outsiders in it already, but I would like to see a foreigner in the head role to impart a wholly professional attitude to the squad.

It's a great job to land, as one is charged with building on the success of the provinces. It is also an ideal time to plant that seed of uber-professionalism, when the stalwarts of old are replaced by talented, impressionable types.

I see it as a best-fit method of tackling Ireland's goals, and a very smart interim between home-grown coaches at the helm.

Hmm. I reckon if Ireland was seen to be using the 6N as a training exercise the other teams would make it quite clear what they thought of that. It wouldn't be a good place for a young player. Be quite interesting to watch, mind you, in a grisly sort of way.

Wrong way round mate.
First win the 6 nations regularly as these teams are around your level.
Then take your squad of hard, skillful, succesful, confident players and beat the SH teams in the AIs.
Then take your chances down south.
No point thinking about winning in NZ when you can't beat Wales every year.
No disrespect to anyone but you're thinking to far ahead.

Consistency has to be the goal?

red_stag wrote:6 Nations ranks a bit down on my list.

• World Cup

• Heineken Cup

• Lions

• Southern Hemisphere Tests

• 6 Nations

• Magners League

This makes me think you are new to rugby, in your early twenties or you have changed your mind. I say this because Irish rugby has traditionally revolved around the six nations rugby. The tradition, history and popularity of the six nations is something we should cherish and protect.

The last thing we want we want to see is for club rugby to eclipse International rugby at the expense of everything we love about the game in favour of money, tv rights etc. Next thing you know Irish rugby will be off the map as clubs grow where supporters and investors are greedly form the longest queues for a slice of corruption dripping glory ala football.

Support and cherish the six nations!!!

Leinsterbaby,

My age is there beside my name. I am 22 and I do think my age is a reason for this mindset. However I don't see anything wrong with it nor do I apologise for it.

The Heineken Cup is one thousand times the tournament of the 6 Nations IMO. Many of the games are very stale, it doesn't lend itself to bonus points and just isn't as exciting a tournament for me.

The only areas were it dominates is history, rivalry, tradition etc. To be honest it needs more. Apart from Irish games of course I prefer watching the 3 Nations games. However I fully commit to our system in the ML of everything being geared towards national side.

However I fully commit to our system in the ML of everything being geared towards national side.

That's the point of the H Cup as well.

Yes but not as directly Munsty. The IRFU has more influence over the ML than the HEC but your right they both build towards national team and even though I prefer HEC I wouldn't change that.

Maybe not as directly but the whole point of the provinces is building a stronger Test side for the Six Nations and any other Tests.

Yes as I said I agree. But we have more direct impact on ML with player resting, IRFU insisting that players get certain game time in certain positions etc.

I'm not doubting that. I think I'm just agreeing with the point of LeinsterBaby that too much emphasis is going on the H Cup ahead of the national side and it would be a massive shame if that came before the Test team.

Hydroxymoron wrote:Any thoughts on dampening or removing the Irish psyche from the collective? That is, the plucky side who will prefer to be viewed as underdogs.

I know the coaching ticket has a number of outsiders in it already, but I would like to see a foreigner in the head role to impart a wholly professional attitude to the squad.

It's a great job to land, as one is charged with building on the success of the provinces. It is also an ideal time to plant that seed of uber-professionalism, when the stalwarts of old are replaced by talented, impressionable types.

I see it as a best-fit method of tackling Ireland's goals, and a very smart interim between home-grown coaches at the helm.

Ireland won't be going anywhere until Irish players/supporters dump the idea that we need a 'foreigner' to bring us to the next level. The notion that our homegrown coaches are not "wholly professional" is laughable.

I just don't get this mentality at all of 'Ireland coach bad', 'foreign coach good'. You've either a good coach or you are not a good coach. Nationality has nothing got to do with it.

Its true. I just find it a better tournament. There are more teams, different players. There are new stadiums, more venues, a more exciting knock out and pool qualification process. I like how it is staged - peppered in 2 week blocks throughout the year instead of a big lump of games in March and the games are usually more exciting I find.

I find though that every time I say I prefer Heinken Cup to Test Rugby I find people treat that as though there is something horribly wrong about it.

I have no problem with that, but saying the 6 Nations a training ground is probably where you got people wound up a bit.

Ireland won't be going anywhere until Irish players/supporters dump the idea that we need a 'foreigner' to bring us to the next level. The notion that our homegrown coaches are not "wholly professional" is laughable.

I just don't get this mentality at all of 'Ireland coach bad', 'foreign coach good'. You've either a good coach or you are not a good coach. Nationality has nothing got to do with it.

Agree totally. Why are people from another nation more professional?

Six Nations is quite an average tournament now, when not viewed through rose tinted spectacles. It only usually provides one or two really interesting games whilst there are a much larger number of low-quality error ridden, scrappy encounters.

I think you are being a bit disingenuous though! You know fine well that the players we bring through in the Six Nations are likely to stay in the team, like in 2008 when Bowe, Kearney and Heaslip all featured in the 6N despite not making the RWC in 2007.

The best way to prepare for our tour is of course to get into the habit of winning in the 6N and go down there confident.

Munsty, yes thats fair enough but I would say a rose by any other name will smell as sweet. Plenty of people advocated trying something new in the 6 Nations but didn't like that name.

My point was that playing Scotland or Wales is no better than Australia or South Africa and should not be on a higher pedestal merely because its the "6 nations". All our games are important.

The issue with taht should be player fitness.
Will the top guys (who havent retired) who were part of an extended regional run in this season, followed by a summer of intensive training and WC warmups, followe dby the world cup, followed by another gruelling domestic seaosn and 6 nations, need a rest at some point?

Player management and workload is a huge issue. It may be that they Union decides to rest a lot of the International players through the domestic season, otherwise I cant see how its in the players long term inetrests to be subjected to another long summer tour getting beaten up in SANZAR.

After all didnt Leinster lose the Magners final because of fatigue?

Stag,

It's no necessarily on a higher level but it is part of a competition which means more than a one off Test.

With the return of Test series though, that might change, but at the moment, the Six Nations is more important than a one off game against Australia.

MBTGOG wrote:Stag,

It's no necessarily on a higher level but it is part of a competition which means more than a one off Test.

With the return of Test series though, that might change, but at the moment, the Six Nations is more important than a one off game against Australia.

See I don't know if it does. I was more annoyed with our loss to South Africa in 2010 than I was by our one against Scotland. For me it depends on the game. Ireland v France was a humdinger this year.

red_stag wrote:Leinsterbaby,

My age is there beside my name. I am 22 and I do think my age is a reason for this mindset. However I don't see anything wrong with it nor do I apologise for it.

The Heineken Cup is one thousand times the tournament of the 6 Nations IMO. Many of the games are very stale, it doesn't lend itself to bonus points and just isn't as exciting a tournament for me.

The only areas were it dominates is history, rivalry, tradition etc. To be honest it needs more. Apart from Irish games of course I prefer watching the 3 Nations games. However I fully commit to our system in the ML of everything being geared towards national side.

I grew up on the six nations you on the success of Munster in the Hcup. Heineken cup is becoming much bigger than the 6 nations correct. This is a real concern though because the club game will evolve in a manner that turns its back on local identity indigenous talent in favour of results and business ala the top 14. When this eventually happens we will no longer be able to keep our best players in Ireland. Pretty soon International rugby will be meaningless just like International football. Our kids will all be wearing Stade Francais or Saracens jerseys and chanting foreign songs in French/English accents like our football loving brethren do.

It will be a sad day when this happens. We need to protect the tradition, national pride that is the 6nations. Greatest tournament in the world. In my opinion everything in rugby should be geared toward building the international game not bastardising our sport by building the club game.

Leinsterbaby, I think the powers that be can see it coming and central contract and have put good working conditions in order to keep best players here.

Stag,

But I'm not talking about individual games, I'm saying that as the Six Nations is a comp, each game is part of a wider context which makes it more important than a one off Test.

Plus on the subject of being annoyed at a Test match, I think it will take a long long time till I get close to how I was after the Ireland-Wales game and that has nothing to do with the Philips try.