Coaching or Media?

As the English press and fans continue to dissect every bone of their RWC debacle and search far and wide for a new Messiah are they or we overlooking the obvious here. For me some of the best potential "coaches/advisors" operate in the media with the likes of Jonny Wilkinson, Dallaglio and Brian Moore for example always offering excellent reasoned analysis IMO. Therefore why aren't these icons involved at a crucial level in the England set up as for me they would give you what you want and perhaps more.

Moore as special advisor on laws, refs, penalties and farewell cards.
Oh and on winding up the oppos.

There is also the old danger of thinking that just because some guy is good about talking about stuff that they are good at coaching. They might be, but one does not necessarily lead to the other

I think the role on discipline has gone to Wade Dooley Greg

lostinwales wrote:There is also the old danger of thinking that just because some guy is good about talking about stuff that they are good at coaching. They might be, but one does not necessarily lead to the other

Lostinmanchester: Thank you for that valuable insight

Here is a list of the best coaches in rugby in last 20 years and their highest achievements as a player.

Warren Gatland - club rugby in NZ... was around NZ squad but never capped.
Graham Henry - school teacher, no real playing career of note.
Eddie Jones - played A grade club rugby in AUS but no caps.
Jake White - school teacher, never played beyond 1st team school rugby.
Steve Hansen - club rugby in NZ.
Michael Cheika - club rugby in AUS.
Heyneke Meyer - played for his university.
Vern Cotter - club rugby in NZ.
Joe Schmidt - amateur player in NZ & IRE.

the exceptions.

Clive Woodward - capped by England and Lions.
Rassie Erasmus - 30 odd caps for the boks, one of the most respected coaches in SA.
Robbie Deans - played for ABs.

May have left a few out but these guys are the best in the pro era

You see the same in most sports. The best coaches aren't generally those which great ability. The greats can have inspiring aura about them but they're too natural... what they see as normal, most will struggle to keep up. Their standards will be too high... saw it with Deans, saw it with Jonno.

RubyGuby wrote:I think the role on discipline has gone to Wade Dooley Greg

Ruby
But Brian Moore is actually a ref. A reformed poacher turned gamekeeper. Might help to advise on England's stupid propensity to concede soft penalties..

Well, they get actual top level refs in to advise on discipline. I think it's been Barnes recently.

RubyGuby wrote:As the English press and fans continue to dissect every bone of their RWC debacle and search far and wide for a new Messiah are they or we overlooking the obvious here. For me some of the best potential "coaches/advisors" operate in the media with the likes of Jonny Wilkinson, Dallaglio and Brian Moore for example always offering excellent reasoned analysis IMO. Therefore why aren't these icons involved at a crucial level in the England set up as for me they would give you what you want and perhaps more.

I think you're should add in Welsh fans too!

RubyGuby wrote:As the English press and fans continue to dissect every bone of their RWC debacle and search far and wide for a new Messiah are they or we overlooking the obvious here. For me some of the best potential "coaches/advisors" operate in the media with the likes of Jonny Wilkinson, Dallaglio and Brian Moore for example always offering excellent reasoned analysis IMO. Therefore why aren't these icons involved at a crucial level in the England set up as for me they would give you what you want and perhaps more.

Well look at it logically Ruby.
What was Johnson before he was coach of England? Has Johnson pundited since?
These boys ain't thick. Better the guaranteed income and Godlike status as ex-great players, pontificating on the sidelines in an 'always-right-in-hindsight' way, than in risking everything and perhaps killing a little of their icon/earning value ...and having no home to go back to if it all failed..................................

fa0019 wrote:Here is a list of the best coaches in rugby in last 20 years and their highest achievements as a player.

Warren Gatland - club rugby in NZ... was around NZ squad but never capped.
Graham Henry - school teacher, no real playing career of note.
Eddie Jones - played A grade club rugby in AUS but no caps.
Jake White - school teacher, never played beyond 1st team school rugby.
Steve Hansen - club rugby in NZ.
Michael Cheika - club rugby in AUS.
Heyneke Meyer - played for his university.
Vern Cotter - club rugby in NZ.
Joe Schmidt - amateur player in NZ & IRE.

the exceptions.

Clive Woodward - capped by England and Lions.
Rassie Erasmus - 30 odd caps for the boks, one of the most respected coaches in SA.
Robbie Deans - played for ABs.

May have left a few out but these guys are the best in the pro era

You see the same in most sports. The best coaches aren't generally those which great ability. The greats can have inspiring aura about them but they're too natural... what they see as normal, most will struggle to keep up. Their standards will be too high... saw it with Deans, saw it with Jonno.

Can we please put to bed the myth that Clive Woodward was a top coach? He happened to be there when England were fortunate enough to have probably the most awesome pack ever seen all turn up at the same time. Add to that some tidy threequarters, the introduction of the tap penalty which suited Dawson down to the ground and then Robokicker at 10 and you have a team which anyone with a basic knowledge of rugby could have coached to a world cup win (which even then they won by the narrowest of margins with a late drop goal). His real coaching ability was revealed when he was put in charge of the Lions.

Scarpia wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Here is a list of the best coaches in rugby in last 20 years and their highest achievements as a player.

Warren Gatland - club rugby in NZ... was around NZ squad but never capped.
Graham Henry - school teacher, no real playing career of note.
Eddie Jones - played A grade club rugby in AUS but no caps.
Jake White - school teacher, never played beyond 1st team school rugby.
Steve Hansen - club rugby in NZ.
Michael Cheika - club rugby in AUS.
Heyneke Meyer - played for his university.
Vern Cotter - club rugby in NZ.
Joe Schmidt - amateur player in NZ & IRE.

the exceptions.

Clive Woodward - capped by England and Lions.
Rassie Erasmus - 30 odd caps for the boks, one of the most respected coaches in SA.
Robbie Deans - played for ABs.

May have left a few out but these guys are the best in the pro era

You see the same in most sports. The best coaches aren't generally those which great ability. The greats can have inspiring aura about them but they're too natural... what they see as normal, most will struggle to keep up. Their standards will be too high... saw it with Deans, saw it with Jonno.

Can we please put to bed the myth that Clive Woodward was a top coach? He happened to be there when England were fortunate enough to have probably the most awesome pack ever seen all turn up at the same time. Add to that some tidy threequarters, the introduction of the tap penalty which suited Dawson down to the ground and then Robokicker at 10 and you have a team which anyone with a basic knowledge of rugby could have coached to a world cup win (which even then they won by the narrowest of margins with a late drop goal). His real coaching ability was revealed when he was put in charge of the Lions.

and Graham Henry simply inherited of the best players of his NZ generation............(oh, wait), then he is not a great coach either?

Henry has a proven track record of significant improvements in the teams he has coached. Woodward had success with one group of players.

Woodward was less of a coach and more of an organiser/visionary, bringing the pieces together and getting the right people in the right places.

Cyril wrote:Woodward was less of a coach and more of an organiser/visionary, bringing the pieces together and getting the right people in the right places.

And isn't that exactly what should come first? Before the actual coaches?

Scarpia wrote:Henry has a proven track record of significant improvements in the teams he has coached. Woodward had success with one group of players.

Henry has a great record but its not flawless. His management of the Lions was truly poor (and only Clive has saved us from talking about it for ever more).

doctor_grey wrote:

Cyril wrote:Woodward was less of a coach and more of an organiser/visionary, bringing the pieces together and getting the right people in the right places.

And isn't that exactly what should come first?  Before the actual coaches?

I think there is merit in this and that was actually the thrust of what was a genuine post - The likes of Wilkinson, Moore et al providing the materials for Lancaster to teach/coach. The best players are knowledgeable but they are not teachers/coaches per se and that of course is a professional job in itself.

Scarpia you could call any successful coach lucky to have the players they have.

Look at the sheer quality - Hansen has at his disposal.

E.g.

Savea is one of the best wingers already and he's only 25.

The NZ's success has been built on their ability to churn out quality players continuously and just hone their basic skills to such a degree that no team can match them. It's not easy as it has been going on for years and starts at the grassroots.

How easy is it to gauge how good a coach the likes of Hansen and Henry are when NZ have such a strong system in place?

Woodward had one of the best English packs, England have ever had.

In Wilkinson, Woodward had a once in a generation 10. A centre like Greenwood that England have struggled to replace. No attacking back like Robinson.

Unfortunately this legacy was squandered because Woodward did not have a long term strategy. He won a RWC but left a team that has been in rebuilding mode since 2003.


I do think that the likes of Hill,Wilkinson and Borthwick could be used as specialist advisors in breakdown,kicking and lineout respectively though. Their knowledge in these areas could certainly be valuable.

Stupid point but do we need more coaching?  Sometimes the problem seems to be that the players are over-coached or over instructed.  That said, I do thing coaching is important but perhaps the best coaches know when to leave things alone and let the players sort things out.

Of the commentators, I was very impressed with Wilkinson

I don't think its about more coaching cb and that's not a stupid point you make. I think its about having a clear strategy and game plan that can be modified accordingly. You then need the best players to deliver this game plan. Once this template is established its about going over and over it in training until it becomes increasingly more natural. There has to be a structure to begin with and a clear game plan, however this is then modified if need be according to the conditions, how the game is going etc. I'm just not sure what England's game plan is at the moment, they seem stuck between a half way point and I think this is confusing the players. So its not a case of more coaching per se but more a case of more clear coaching.

SCW was/is the biggest fraud in rugby's history. Any one of us could have won the WC with that England squad. They were the trail blazers of professional rugby.

He left when the players were retiring, he buggered up the Lions. Alister fecking Cambellend FFS. The less said about his time at Southampton the better, and do not talk to me about his book.

If SCW was any good at coaching, then why isn't he STILL coaching at any level ?

For my liking the previous English coaches deserve more credit than him.

It's a case of players grumbling that they are not being given best partners to play alongside. That will always happen in a big nation with many teams and 'form' going up and down week by week or month by month.

There is always an alternative and going on what we've been hearing from England camp, players weren't exactly impressed with the choices of management in this area. That creates frictions in the squad and it doesn't matter how Lancaster's publicity machine tries to cover over those cracks. There were obviously cracks existing throughout the contest.

So player might want to play as best they can but instincts will act on performances regardless of voluntary intent. Players will feel less inclined to make 'problematic' selections look as good as they could be. Their reflexes won't be willing to work as hard to help the 'problematic' look good. And those tiny little hesitancies can have a huge impact on performances.

So - once again, England suffers from sheer size and sheer numbers of options available to fill each International spot. Tensions rise... in management, in the media and amongst players themselves.

LordDowlais wrote:SCW was/is the biggest fraud in rugby's history. Any one of us could have won the WC with that England squad. They were the trail blazers of professional rugby.

He left when the players were retiring, he buggered up the Lions. Alister fecking Cambellend FFS. The less said about his time at Southampton the better, and do not talk to me about his book.

If SCW was any good at coaching, then why isn't he STILL coaching at any level ?

For my liking the previous English coaches deserve more credit than him.

All this and you still read his book? It seems you've been had, LD!

Cyril wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:SCW was/is the biggest fraud in rugby's history. Any one of us could have won the WC with that England squad. They were the trail blazers of professional rugby.

He left when the players were retiring, he buggered up the Lions. Alister fecking Cambellend FFS. The less said about his time at Southampton the better, and do not talk to me about his book.

If SCW was any good at coaching, then why isn't he STILL coaching at any level ?

For my liking the previous English coaches deserve more credit than him.

All this and you still read his book? It seems you've been had, LD!

I'll be honest with you cyril, there was a time when I though SCW was the best in the business, but that was 12 years ago, and I was just a young know nothing now it all. Now, when you reflect on what he achieved, then he has been dining out on that WC for 12 years now. I will never forgive him for what he did to the Lions, and to me he was found out. Martin Johnson, Lawrence Dalaglio and co. were the ones who should have given the plaudits for that. Not him.

Whilst I accept the point that a great player does not necessarilly a great coach make, lets look at the england team that played the 2003 final:


FB 15 Josh Lewsey Substituted off 85'
RW 14 Jason Robinson
OC 12 Mike Tindall Substituted off 79'
IC 13[a] Will Greenwood
LW 11 Ben Cohen
FH 10 Jonny Wilkinson
SH 9 Matt Dawson
N8 8 Lawrence Dallaglio
OF 7 Neil Back
BF 6 Richard Hill Substituted off 93'
RL 5 Ben Kay
LL 4 Martin Johnson (c)
TP 3 Phil Vickery Substituted off 86'
HK 2 Steve Thompson
LP 1 Trevor Woodman
Replacements:
HK 16 Dorian West
PR 17 Jason Leonard Substituted in 86'
LK 18 Martin Corry
FL 19 Lewis Moody Substituted in 93'
SH 20 Kyran Bracken
FH 21 Mike Catt Substituted in 79'
FB 22 Iain Balshaw Substituted in 85'
Coach:
England Sir Clive Woodward

How many have gone into coaching?

Catt, Johnson, and Back as far as I am aware. So three. Should the RFU have encouraged more to do so? It's certainly true that our succession planning after 2003 was woeful. I'd have loved for Greenwood to go into coaching instead of punditry, and maybe Wilkinson will become a coach (he's helping out a bit at Toulon isn't he?).

How long should these guys take to become good coaches? What percentage of these guys should become coaches?

RubyGuby wrote:I don't think its about more coaching cb and that's not a stupid point you make. I think its about having a clear strategy and game plan that can be modified accordingly. You then need the best players to deliver this game plan. Once this template is established its about going over and over it in training until it becomes increasingly more natural.  There has to be a structure to begin with and a clear game plan, however this is then modified if need be according to the conditions, how the game is going etc. I'm just not sure what England's game plan is at the moment, they seem stuck between a half way point and I think this is confusing the players. So its not a case of more coaching per se but more a case of more clear coaching.

I agree Ruby, but isnt that what all national, Provincial, Club even school first XV coaches are doing already?

LordDowlais wrote:

I'll be honest with you cyril, there was a time when I though SCW was the best in the business, but that was 12 years ago, and I was just a young know nothing now it all. .

Oh Lordy.... don't give me ammunition.

Yes it is aucklandlaurie rugby is a simple game as you boys show time and time again - However i think something gets lost in the transportation/coaching some times - Lots of teams deviate from their structure and when I'm on the side-lines telling my boys to keep their shape - They know what I mean and they go back to it

Sit down Fly, sit down

Ruby, that transportation/coaching issue sounds more like a logistics problem..

No seriously, you do have to use structure to take you ahead of where you are playing at any given time. there is no point in attack just pounding away (well not always) in trying to get over the adavantage line if you havent got the strategy and structure to continue the attack once you have gone past the said advantage line.

The modern day term I understand is "Playing ahead of yourself".

As you say the the repetitive training is the key to it all.and that means a lot of hard work,and some players (and coaches )arent prepared to work that hard.

[quote="aucklandlaurie"]Ruby, that transportation/coaching issue sounds more like a logistics problem..

No seriously, you do have to use structure to take you ahead of where you are playing at any given time. there is no point in attack just pounding away (well not always) in trying to get over the adavantage line if you havent got the strategy and structure to continue the attack once you have gone past the said advantage line.

The modern day term I understand is "Playing ahead of yourself".

As you say the the repetitive training is the key to it all.and that means a lot of hard work,and some players (and coaches )arent prepared to work that hard.[/quote