Dragons v Ulster 8/11/15

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Dragons v Ulster Rugby
Sunday 8th November 2015
Rodney Parade
2.30pm Kick Off
TV- BBC NI and S4C

Referee: Dudley Phillips (IRFU, 54th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Sean Brickell, Simon Rees (both WRU)
Citing Commissioner: Aurwel Morgan (WRU)
TMO: Tim Hayes (WRU)

This should be interesting, Ulster have changed their squad up for this one with the European game in France coming up and with a numbe rof players still missing with Injuries.  Combine that with our frankly awful away record this season and things don't look good but still at least we have best and pienaar back.

Newport Gwent Dragons: Carl Meyer; Ashton Hewitt, Adam Hughes, Adam Warren, Nick Scott; Dorian Jones, Sarel Pretorius; Boris Stankovich, Elliot Dee, Shaun Knight; Cory Hill, Rynard Landman (capt); Ed Jackson, Ollie Griffiths, Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: Rhys Buckley, Phil Price, Brok Harris, Matthew Screech, Lewis Evans, Charlie Davies, Jason Tovey, Ross Wardle.

Ulster: Peter Nelson; Rory Scholes, Darren Cave, Stuart McCloskey, Sam Arnold; Paddy Jackson, Paul Marshall; Kyle McCall, Rob Herring (captain), Wiehahn Herbst; Dan Tuohy, Franco van der Merwe; Robbie Diack, Chris Henry, Stephen Mulholland.

Replacements: Rory Best, Ricky Lutton, Bronson Ross, Lewis Stevenson, Sean Reidy, Ruan Pienaar, Ian Humphreys, Craig Gilroy

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:And you never dish out the insults?

No I don't actually. If you can find any evidence of it then I will apologise. But I will not be apologising as you will not find any evidence of me insulting people on here. I do not do it. Yet I secretly think you already know this, but if it helps you with your agenda on here, carry on....

You're a liar. You described the Ulster crowd as "thuggish" among other things not that long ago. If that isn't insulting people then I don't know what is. Maybe this is a real example of the hypocritical "holier than thou" attitude you accuse the Irish of?

That was when we were talking about that incident in Europe wasn't it ? When the player was fighting with an Ulster supporter because the supporter said something offensive to him. Also, we were talking about thuggish behavior of the players when the Ulster team were bottom of the fair play league.

Anyway, find the evidence of me doing it. Go on, I challenge you. It's not me throwing accusations and insults around, it's you and your mafia on here that are the experts for that behaviour.

You have dished out the insults, LD. You are playing the hypocrite.

Prove it ?

"Reverting to type again I see marty. Why you cannot debate in a sensible grown up way is beyond comprehension."

"Seriously, you are getting tiresome now. Grow up, thats the thing with some of you and your mates on here. When you have been shown up, you revert to type"

"FFS. Is there no humility with you on here ? I always knew I was right. Time and time again this evidence was given, you just decided to ignore it to suit your own agenda. I would not keep on about something if I was just guessing. FFS, what is the matter with you ?"

"No you are not. You are just going against everything I say just to stir up a bun fight. I have answered all your questions in a very adequate manner, yet you still keep on finding things to pipe up about. If I said tomorrow was Wednesday, you would find a reason to counter it."

Not going to trudge through all your comments, although not sure if I can. Has the site started to limit the saved comments? Anyway, here's a few.

No insults at all in that little montage sorry. Please try harder.

Like this one: " it's you and your mafia .." and there's many others, but I'm not wasting my time trying to prove something already proven.

You wouldn't see this as insulting because you live in a bubble. Yes, that's insulting, I know. You are the model poster according to you...

You will have to educate me here then, go on. Where have I thrown an insult in that sentence ? By calling you part of a mafia ? Would you prefer it if I used gang ? Or mob ? Because that is how I feel I am being targeted on here by you, Marty, Geoff, Aukster, SecretFly, Pete amongst a few. You all team up and attack the one. You all seem to feel I am attacking the Irish because I reckon the refs in our league are insufficient. Oh well, how dare I have an opinion, it's not as if I call you all tin hatted loonies now is it ?

Because comparing us with murderous criminals isn't an insult? Numpty.

You are targeted Stop playing the victim, LD. It's more than obvious you fish for a reaction. It's a troll technique. Fish for a reaction then cry victim.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Talk to the Scots and the Italians then they are the ones providing insufficient referees to make neutral referees possible

The point you make about a banable offence is not what I am getting at, but I suspect you know that and are just trying to get a rise

It's amazing that in Super rugby the likes of Joubert, Jackson, Pyper etc can ref games involving teams from their own countries and not get accused of being biased. Nor do we hear that Super rugby is "unviable".

Thats because they are full time professional refs aren't they ?

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Neutrality isn't the issue, it's competence. The touch judges yesterday were Welsh.

I agree 100%. There are only one lot bringing nationality into it. I have said time and again, ALL the refs in our league are poor, why ? Because they are all part time. We need full time professional refs in our league, controlled by the league, not the unions, and ALL nationalities.

It was actually a certain Welsh poster who brought nationality and bias into these debates which has led to everyone being unable to actually debate this properly. This person even accused welsh, Scottish and Italian referees of being biased towards the provinces.

To say all the refs are poor is simply untrue. Mitrea is the most under rated ref in Workd rugby atm and Just because you think Owens is a poor ref does not make him one. You think Barnes is the benchmark but if you were to look on any AP forum you would see people who think otherwise. It's all about perspective.

Fair enough, yes I can accept that, it is all down to perspective. BUT, and you must agree with on this at least. We need full time professional refs, in a full time professional league, all employed by one organisation, an organisation that is not employing players and coaches as well.

Yes I would like to see that if it makes people happier with the league but I just don't think it will improve the quality all that much and I don't think the Pro 12 will stump up the money for it (because they probably don't have it)

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:And you never dish out the insults?

No I don't actually. If you can find any evidence of it then I will apologise. But I will not be apologising as you will not find any evidence of me insulting people on here. I do not do it. Yet I secretly think you already know this, but if it helps you with your agenda on here, carry on....

You're a liar. You described the Ulster crowd as "thuggish" among other things not that long ago. If that isn't insulting people then I don't know what is. Maybe this is a real example of the hypocritical "holier than thou" attitude you accuse the Irish of?

That was when we were talking about that incident in Europe wasn't it ? When the player was fighting with an Ulster supporter because the supporter said something offensive to him. Also, we were talking about thuggish behavior of the players when the Ulster team were bottom of the fair play league.

Anyway, find the evidence of me doing it. Go on, I challenge you. It's not me throwing accusations and insults around, it's you and your mafia on here that are the experts for that behaviour.

You have dished out the insults, LD. You are playing the hypocrite.

Prove it ?

"Reverting to type again I see marty. Why you cannot debate in a sensible grown up way is beyond comprehension."

"Seriously, you are getting tiresome now. Grow up, thats the thing with some of you and your mates on here. When you have been shown up, you revert to type"

"FFS. Is there no humility with you on here ? I always knew I was right. Time and time again this evidence was given, you just decided to ignore it to suit your own agenda. I would not keep on about something if I was just guessing. FFS, what is the matter with you ?"

"No you are not. You are just going against everything I say just to stir up a bun fight. I have answered all your questions in a very adequate manner, yet you still keep on finding things to pipe up about. If I said tomorrow was Wednesday, you would find a reason to counter it."

Not going to trudge through all your comments, although not sure if I can. Has the site started to limit the saved comments? Anyway, here's a few.

No insults at all in that little montage sorry. Please try harder.

Like this one: " it's you and your mafia .." and there's many others, but I'm not wasting my time trying to prove something already proven.

You wouldn't see this as insulting because you live in a bubble. Yes, that's insulting, I know. You are the model poster according to you...

You will have to educate me here then, go on. Where have I thrown an insult in that sentence ? By calling you part of a mafia ? Would you prefer it if I used gang ? Or mob ? Because that is how I feel I am being targeted on here by you, Marty, Geoff, Aukster, SecretFly, Pete amongst a few. You all team up and attack the one. You all seem to feel I am attacking the Irish because I reckon the refs in our league are insufficient. Oh well, how dare I have an opinion, it's not as if I call you all tin hatted loonies now is it ?

Because comparing us with murderous criminals isn't an insult?  Numpty.

You are targeted  Stop playing the victim, LD. It's more than obvious you fish for a reaction. It's a troll technique. Fish for a reaction then cry victim.

Do you know what, I have never done it before, but unfortunately you are going to have to be my first ever "foe". I have been on this forum from the start, I have never had the indecency to come across anyone as vindictive as you.

'Some of the Irish members on here are fecking muppets.'
'Because I DO NOT KNOW THEIR NAMES. FFS, why are you being such a tool ?'

munkian wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:Agreed, he was clearly out of his depth and had zero help from the touch judges.

It was just unfortunate for the Dragons that a fair few of his mistakes aided Ulster.

?

My text disappeared. It's a conspiracy.

I did type, " Yes the Dragons would have won but for the ref aiding Ulster...."

Without actually meaning it, of course.

Yes, that's clearly what I said....


Someone has left the Tinkywinky gate open in this thread.

So, if even after explaining that it wasn't meant, you don't get sarcasm? I will make it clearer. If you're implying that the Dragons lost because the ref aided Ulster, then you are clearly wrong, and just another moan who can't accept a loss for a Region. Not without having to blame someone else other than that Region. Clear?

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Talk to the Scots and the Italians then they are the ones providing insufficient referees to make neutral referees possible

The point you make about a banable offence is not what I am getting at, but I suspect you know that and are just trying to get a rise

It's amazing that in Super rugby the likes of Joubert, Jackson, Pyper etc can ref games involving teams from their own countries and not get accused of being biased. Nor do we hear that Super rugby is "unviable".

Thats because they are full time professional refs aren't they ?

The top refs probably are but the ones that don't ref at international level certainly wouldn't be. The Pro 12 has full time refs too such as Owens and Lacey? Not sure if Mitrea is a full time or not.

No 7&1/2 wrote:'Some of the Irish members on here are fecking muppets.'
'Because I DO NOT KNOW THEIR NAMES. FFS, why are you being such a tool ?'

I called them that because they were accusing me of TROLLING.

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:And you never dish out the insults?

No I don't actually. If you can find any evidence of it then I will apologise. But I will not be apologising as you will not find any evidence of me insulting people on here. I do not do it. Yet I secretly think you already know this, but if it helps you with your agenda on here, carry on....

You're a liar. You described the Ulster crowd as "thuggish" among other things not that long ago. If that isn't insulting people then I don't know what is. Maybe this is a real example of the hypocritical "holier than thou" attitude you accuse the Irish of?

That was when we were talking about that incident in Europe wasn't it ? When the player was fighting with an Ulster supporter because the supporter said something offensive to him. Also, we were talking about thuggish behavior of the players when the Ulster team were bottom of the fair play league.

Anyway, find the evidence of me doing it. Go on, I challenge you. It's not me throwing accusations and insults around, it's you and your mafia on here that are the experts for that behaviour.

You have dished out the insults, LD. You are playing the hypocrite.

Prove it ?

"Reverting to type again I see marty. Why you cannot debate in a sensible grown up way is beyond comprehension."

"Seriously, you are getting tiresome now. Grow up, thats the thing with some of you and your mates on here. When you have been shown up, you revert to type"

"FFS. Is there no humility with you on here ? I always knew I was right. Time and time again this evidence was given, you just decided to ignore it to suit your own agenda. I would not keep on about something if I was just guessing. FFS, what is the matter with you ?"

"No you are not. You are just going against everything I say just to stir up a bun fight. I have answered all your questions in a very adequate manner, yet you still keep on finding things to pipe up about. If I said tomorrow was Wednesday, you would find a reason to counter it."

Not going to trudge through all your comments, although not sure if I can. Has the site started to limit the saved comments? Anyway, here's a few.

No insults at all in that little montage sorry. Please try harder.

Like this one: " it's you and your mafia .." and there's many others, but I'm not wasting my time trying to prove something already proven.

You wouldn't see this as insulting because you live in a bubble. Yes, that's insulting, I know. You are the model poster according to you...

You will have to educate me here then, go on. Where have I thrown an insult in that sentence ? By calling you part of a mafia ? Would you prefer it if I used gang ? Or mob ? Because that is how I feel I am being targeted on here by you, Marty, Geoff, Aukster, SecretFly, Pete amongst a few. You all team up and attack the one. You all seem to feel I am attacking the Irish because I reckon the refs in our league are insufficient. Oh well, how dare I have an opinion, it's not as if I call you all tin hatted loonies now is it ?

Because comparing us with murderous criminals isn't an insult?  Numpty.

You are targeted  Stop playing the victim, LD. It's more than obvious you fish for a reaction. It's a troll technique. Fish for a reaction then cry victim.

Do you know what, I have never done it before, but unfortunately you are going to have to be my first ever "foe". I have been on this forum from the start, I have never had the indecency to come across anyone as vindictive as you.

Playing the victim again.....

Fair enough. Perfectly fair. Lets not pretend any of us are above childish insults!

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:'Some of the Irish members on here are fecking muppets.'
'Because I DO NOT KNOW THEIR NAMES. FFS, why are you being such a tool ?'

I called them that because they were accusing me of TROLLING.

...and it's yet another couple of insults that you claim you don't make...

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Talk to the Scots and the Italians then they are the ones providing insufficient referees to make neutral referees possible

The point you make about a banable offence is not what I am getting at, but I suspect you know that and are just trying to get a rise

It's amazing that in Super rugby the likes of Joubert, Jackson, Pyper etc can ref games involving teams from their own countries and not get accused of being biased. Nor do we hear that Super rugby is "unviable".

Thats because they are full time professional refs aren't they ?

The top refs probably are but the ones that don't ref at international level certainly wouldn't be. The Pro 12 has full time refs too such as Owens and Lacey? Not sure if Mitrea is a full time or not.

How many from the SH are full time though ? There are more than what we have surely. Also the English refs are all pro aren't they and the French ones ?

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:Agreed, he was clearly out of his depth and had zero help from the touch judges.

It was just unfortunate for the Dragons that a fair few of his mistakes aided Ulster.

?

My text disappeared. It's a conspiracy.

I did type, " Yes the Dragons would have won but for the ref aiding Ulster...."

Without actually meaning it, of course.

Yes, that's clearly what I said....


Someone has left the Tinkywinky gate open in this thread.

So, if even after explaining that it wasn't meant, you don't get sarcasm? I will make it clearer. If you're implying that the Dragons lost because the ref aided Ulster, then you are clearly wrong, and just another moan who can't accept a loss for a Region. Not without having to blame someone else other than that Region. Clear?

Is there really any need for the aggressive tone ?

I was disagreeing that refs are biased.

They are, however, fairly incompetent.

It was a very close game, so yes, any help from the ref could influence the result. The Dragons lost because, as usual, we were headless in attack and you took your chance well.

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Talk to the Scots and the Italians then they are the ones providing insufficient referees to make neutral referees possible

The point you make about a banable offence is not what I am getting at, but I suspect you know that and are just trying to get a rise

It's amazing that in Super rugby the likes of Joubert, Jackson, Pyper etc can ref games involving teams from their own countries and not get accused of being biased. Nor do we hear that Super rugby is "unviable".

Thats because they are full time professional refs aren't they ?

The top refs probably are but the ones that don't ref at international level certainly wouldn't be. The Pro 12 has full time refs too such as Owens and Lacey? Not sure if Mitrea is a full time or not.

How many from the SH are full time though ? There are more than what we have surely. Also the English refs are all pro aren't they and the French ones ?

I honestly have no idea. But if all the refs in the AP and Top 14 are full time then that proves that it doesn't eradicate the problem. I watch a good bit of Top 14 rugby and the quality is certainly no better.

Blydy hell this escalated more than expected.
Yet another thread hijacked and yet again that common denominator.

If we were to make all the refs fulltime professionals and have a set of refs from other countries so as to negate national bias would these whingers be happy?
No they would not, they'd just aim their sights on another gripe they could make up. The mind boggles.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Neutrality isn't the issue, it's competence. The touch judges yesterday were Welsh.

I agree 100%. There are only one lot bringing nationality into it. I have said time and again, ALL the refs in our league are poor, why ? Because they are all part time. We need full time professional refs in our league, controlled by the league, not the unions, and ALL nationalities.

It was actually a certain Welsh poster who brought nationality and bias into these debates which has led to everyone being unable to actually debate this properly. This person even accused welsh, Scottish and Italian referees of being biased towards the provinces.

To say all the refs are poor is simply untrue. Mitrea is the most under rated ref in Workd rugby atm and Just because you think Owens is a poor ref does not make him one. You think Barnes is the benchmark but if you were to look on any AP forum you would see people who think otherwise. It's all about perspective.

how so? I made my point, I stand by it. The Pro12 should be doing more to ensure that neutral officials are in place.

And I think you will find that what I actually said is that matches where a welsh ref officiates a welsh team against a non-welsh team also leaves itself open to potential allegations of bias - consciously or unconsciously. I can't control what subsequent posters say so I don't think it is fair that you are blaming my post on other people being unable to debate properly.

Now it is clear that many many people don't agree. Thats fine. Lets move on.

Pete330v2 wrote:Blydy hell this escalated more than expected.
Yet another thread hijacked and yet again that common denominator.

If we were to make all the refs fulltime professionals and have a set of refs from other countries so as to negate national bias would these whingers be happy?
No they would not, they'd just aim their sights on another gripe they could make up. The mind boggles.

I would be - hands down.

Pete330v2 wrote:Blydy hell this escalated more than expected.
Yet another thread hijacked and yet again that common denominator.

If we were to make all the refs fulltime professionals and have a set of refs from other countries so as to negate national bias would these whingers be happy?
No they would not, they'd just aim their sights on another gripe they could make up. The mind boggles.

That's true. I don't think it would stop the moaning.

Pete330v2 wrote:Blydy hell this escalated more than expected.
Yet another thread hijacked and yet again that common denominator.

If we were to make all the refs fulltime professionals and have a set of refs from other countries so as to negate national bias would these whingers be happy?
No they would not, they'd just aim their sights on another gripe they could make up. The mind boggles.

I would be happier. I would only be happy when the refs and the players/teams were all employed by separate organisations. Also, I could not give a FFF what their nationality is, as long as they were competent.

GavinDragon wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Neutrality isn't the issue, it's competence. The touch judges yesterday were Welsh.

I agree 100%. There are only one lot bringing nationality into it. I have said time and again, ALL the refs in our league are poor, why ? Because they are all part time. We need full time professional refs in our league, controlled by the league, not the unions, and ALL nationalities.

It was actually a certain Welsh poster who brought nationality and bias into these debates which has led to everyone being unable to actually debate this properly. This person even accused welsh, Scottish and Italian referees of being biased towards the provinces.

To say all the refs are poor is simply untrue. Mitrea is the most under rated ref in Workd rugby atm and Just because you think Owens is a poor ref does not make him one. You think Barnes is the benchmark but if you were to look on any AP forum you would see people who think otherwise. It's all about perspective.

how so? I made my point, I stand by it. The Pro12 should be doing more to ensure that neutral officials are in place.

And I think you will find that what I actually said is that matches where a welsh ref officiates a welsh team against a non-welsh team also leaves itself open to potential allegations of bias - consciously or unconsciously. I can't control what subsequent posters say so I don't think it is fair that you are blaming my post on other people being unable to debate properly.

Now it is clear that many many people don't agree. Thats fine. Lets move on.

Sorry I wasn't talking about you. I agree the league should do more to ensure "neutral" refs, even if it means spending more money.

Not if the neutral referees aren't up to scratch. Their neutrality counts for nothing if they're not any good. The league needs better referees before it needs a referee from Scotland / Italy refereeing a match between an Irish and Welsh side, and so on.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Not if the neutral referees aren't up to scratch. Their neutrality counts for nothing if they're not any good. The league needs better referees before it needs a referee from Scotland / Italy refereeing a match between an Irish and Welsh side, and so on.

Again, I agree.100%.

munkian wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

munkian wrote:Agreed, he was clearly out of his depth and had zero help from the touch judges.

It was just unfortunate for the Dragons that a fair few of his mistakes aided Ulster.

?

My text disappeared. It's a conspiracy.

I did type, " Yes the Dragons would have won but for the ref aiding Ulster...."

Without actually meaning it, of course.

Yes, that's clearly what I said....


Someone has left the Tinkywinky gate open in this thread.

So, if even after explaining that it wasn't meant, you don't get sarcasm? I will make it clearer. If you're implying that the Dragons lost because the ref aided Ulster, then you are clearly wrong, and just another moan who can't accept a loss for a Region. Not without having to blame someone else other than that Region. Clear?

Is there really any need for the aggressive tone ?

I was disagreeing that refs are biased.

They are, however, fairly incompetent.

It was a very close game, so yes, any help from the ref could influence the result. The Dragons lost because, as usual, we were headless in attack and you took your chance well.

Sorry for being a tad aggressive, munkian, but the constant moaning about refs, etc, etc, is long past its sell by date on here. You aren't one of those involved though, so sorry again.

I disagree that the balance was in Ulsters favour. I don't think Best should have been carded, for example. We all tend to view the games with at least a little bias, and perhaps are quicker to see the wrongs of the other side than our own.

Where do these "better" refs come from? It's not exactky the most attractive sport to be a top ref in.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Where do these "better" refs come from? It's not exactky the most attractive sport to be a top ref in.

Well, we make good with what we have, get them all fully pro and employed by the league, then hopefully the next generation will be even better.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
But they'll all have nationalities. You have to come from somewhere. Unless you don't want any of the referees to come from any of the countries playing in the Pro12?

I would support Pro12 referees being joint-employed by their Union and the Pro12, but regardless of what the name of the body who appoints them is, they will be the same referees. They will be the same people with essentially the same training and the same bias or lack of bias.

Let's remember also that we can't have the league employ all of it's own referees, at least not exclusively, because as well as providing officials for the Pro12 Unions are also obliged to provide referees for the international game, European rugby, club rugby below Pro12 level (i.e the AIL, Welsh Premiership) and every other level of the game on downwards although obviously after the top club level the top referees aren't reffing as many games. So by all means lets have central organisation of referees under the aegis of the Pro12 as a league, but they can't exclusively contract refs as referees are obliged to ref at other levels.

Can't we just get Nigel Owens to ref all the games?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:'Some of the Irish members on here are fecking muppets.'
'Because I DO NOT KNOW THEIR NAMES. FFS, why are you being such a tool ?'

I called them that because they were accusing me of TROLLING.

Oh, so you do insult people sometimes?

rodders wrote:Can't we just get Nigel Owens to ref all the games?

Please no.....

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:'Some of the Irish members on here are fecking muppets.'
'Because I DO NOT KNOW THEIR NAMES. FFS, why are you being such a tool ?'

I called them that because they were accusing me of TROLLING.

Oh, so you do insult people sometimes?

I try not to make a habit out of it, I must admit, I do say things in the heat of the moment sometimes, and I will apologise for it, but I do not constantly insult, accuse and use sarcasm towards anybody on here on a post by post basis.

The reality is this - with a professional outfit of referees from the same union, completely neutral and without national bias towards any of the teams involved in the Pro 12, there would still be room for complaining and conspiracies from many of the fans on here. If certain teams are not winning there will always be an excuse or a reason other than the fact they aren't good enough. For a few select fans that reason tends to be the referee and officials, every flipping game.

I would bet my left arm that the complaining, bitching and moaning would continue even if all of those needs were met. Hell, throw in a British and Irish League with all of the above and as long as the Welsh teams are not competing there will be some conspiracy against the victim parade...

Rory_Gallagher wrote: If certain teams are not winning there will always be an excuse or a reason other than the fact they aren't good enough.

The Scarlets v Munster game clearly debunks that particular gem.

LordDowlais wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:'Some of the Irish members on here are fecking muppets.'
'Because I DO NOT KNOW THEIR NAMES. FFS, why are you being such a tool ?'

I called them that because they were accusing me of TROLLING.

Oh, so you do insult people sometimes?

I try not to make a habit out of it, I must admit, I do say things in the heat of the moment sometimes, and I will apologise for it, but I do not constantly insult, accuse and use sarcasm towards anybody on here on a post by post basis.

Well that was a quick change wasn't it?

"I NEVER insult ANYONE"
"You will find NO evidence"
"unlike you and your mob"

Hypocrisy at its finest, eh?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: If certain teams are not winning there will always be an excuse or a reason other than the fact they aren't good enough.

The Scarlets v Munster game clearly debunks that particular gem.

Hardly.

LordDowlais wrote:You will have to educate me here then, go on. Where have I thrown an insult in that sentence ? By calling you part of a mafia ? Would you prefer it if I used gang ? Or mob ? Because that is how I feel I am being targeted on here by you, Marty, Geoff, Aukster, SecretFly, Pete amongst a few. You all team up and attack the one. You all seem to feel I am attacking the Irish because I reckon the refs in our league are insufficient. Oh well, how dare I have an opinion, it's not as if I call you all tin hatted loonies now is it ?

LD - You have intimated that you are being targeted and implicated me. I make no apology for challenging posts I disagree with in as logical and impersonal way as I can and deal with the point rather than the person.

You say:"You all seem to feel I am attacking the Irish because I reckon the refs in our league are insufficient." I do not feel you are attacking "the Irish", but have challenged you about 'attacking' the IRFU structure. You have consistently voiced your displeasure with the (tenuous) connection between Irish provinces and referees intimating that it could lead to bias, but have been consistently unable to provide any evidence to support your claim. Since it is you who has made the claim therefore the onus of proof is on your shoulders.

My position is similar to Luckless Pedestrian in that I don't believe Nationality has anything to do with the standard of refereeing. If any correlation exists between Nationality and results it might suggest that the referee favours the team that is NOT his nationality (as mentioned on the other thread).

There is also the question of defining what is "neutral". Simply having more Scottish or Italian referees will not stop accusations of bias because aggrieved fans will imply that the referee was swayed by ensuring a result that helped his national sides in the league. We also saw the abuse directed at Alain Rolland who was accused of bias because of his father, so how far does the pursuit of neutrality go?

Neither do I think that having all "professional" referees will automatically improve things either. Ben Whitehouse was getting plenty of stick recently and he is a full time referee. Like players, referees are better when they are confident in their own ability. Constantly undermining them actually makes the situation worse, so I'd start by not having any replays at the grounds. The big screen just heaps pressure on the officials and creates an negative atmosphere in the crowd. Fans can watch the match at their leisure when they get home, but fueling the fire during a game is something that can be done without.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: If certain teams are not winning there will always be an excuse or a reason other than the fact they aren't good enough.

The Scarlets v Munster game clearly debunks that particular gem.

Which just proves that some of you will always moan.

geoff999rugby wrote:
In a ideal word we would want neutral referees for all Pro12 games.
That cannot occur because Scotland and Italy provide insufficient referees for the league.
So we go with Some Welsh referees in Ireland and some Irish referees in Wales when welsh and irish teams play each other.
The league monitor them and have seen no evidence of bias - they key factor is who is at home not who referees the match.

I actually disagree Geoff, Scotland had a referee, sorry a ginger can't remember his name who was decent enough and is nowhere to be seen, Paterson is pretty bad but arguably no worse than Dudley. Italians have 2 very good ref in Vivarini and Liperini, the latter has disappeared into oblivion and the former is nowhere to be seen, they are good refs and i never had any complaints to made about them. Plus there is Mitrea who was at the world cup and reffed his 2nd pro12 game this weekend.. So thats 5 Scottish/Italian/Romanian refs who could do a job week in week out but are nowhere to be seen.

The problem isn't about availability but it is a logistic problem and the travel cost too much to the league to have neutral referees but it is definitely possible to have neutral referees every game with the right will.

rodders wrote:Can't we just get Nigel Owens to ref all the games?

No thanks....LOL

VinceWLB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
In a ideal word we would want neutral referees for all Pro12 games.
That cannot occur because Scotland and Italy provide insufficient referees for the league.
So we go with Some Welsh referees in Ireland and some Irish referees in Wales when welsh and irish teams play each other.
The league monitor them and have seen no evidence of bias - they key factor is who is at home not who referees the match.

I actually disagree Geoff, Scotland had a referee, sorry a ginger can't remember his name who was decent enough and is nowhere to be seen, Paterson is pretty bad but arguably no worse than Dudley. Italians have 2 very good ref in Vivarini and Liperini, the latter has disappeared into oblivion and the former is nowhere to be seen, they are good refs and i never had any complaints to made about them. Plus there is Mitrea who was at the world cup and reffed his 2nd pro12 game this weekend.. So thats 5 Scottish/Italian/Romanian refs who could do a job week in week out but are nowhere to be seen.

The problem isn't about availability but it is a logistic problem and the travel cost too much to the league to have neutral referees but it is definitely possible to have neutral referees every game with the right will.

Vince you say Mitrea reffed at the weekend yet say hes nowhere to be seen?

You also say its an issue of cost yet forget that most of the refs have jobs which Im sure are more of a priority to them than their refereeing so it could also be an issue of refs not always being available all of the time

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
In a ideal word we would want neutral referees for all Pro12 games.
That cannot occur because Scotland and Italy provide insufficient referees for the league.
So we go with Some Welsh referees in Ireland and some Irish referees in Wales when welsh and irish teams play each other.
The league monitor them and have seen no evidence of bias - they key factor is who is at home not who referees the match.

I actually disagree Geoff, Scotland had a referee, sorry a ginger can't remember his name who was decent enough and is nowhere to be seen, Paterson is pretty bad but arguably no worse than Dudley. Italians have 2 very good ref in Vivarini and Liperini, the latter has disappeared into oblivion and the former is nowhere to be seen, they are good refs and i never had any complaints to made about them. Plus there is Mitrea who was at the world cup and reffed his 2nd pro12 game this weekend.. So thats 5 Scottish/Italian/Romanian refs who could do a job week in week out but are nowhere to be seen.

The problem isn't about availability but it is a logistic problem and the travel cost too much to the league to have neutral referees but it is definitely possible to have neutral referees every game with the right will.

Vince you say Mitrea reffed at the weekend yet say hes nowhere to be seen?

You also say its an issue of cost yet forget that most of the refs have jobs which Im sure are more of a priority to them than their refereeing so it could also be an issue of refs not always being available all of the time

Sorry my bad, only Mitrea is seen and rarely so, ideally we should see him every week.

About your 2nd point, one reason more for refs to become full time pros. Fans deserve better than what we are getting.

VinceWLB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
In a ideal word we would want neutral referees for all Pro12 games.
That cannot occur because Scotland and Italy provide insufficient referees for the league.
So we go with Some Welsh referees in Ireland and some Irish referees in Wales when welsh and irish teams play each other.
The league monitor them and have seen no evidence of bias - they key factor is who is at home not who referees the match.

I actually disagree Geoff, Scotland had a referee, sorry a ginger can't remember his name who was decent enough and is nowhere to be seen, Paterson is pretty bad but arguably no worse than Dudley. Italians have 2 very good ref in Vivarini and Liperini, the latter has disappeared into oblivion and the former is nowhere to be seen, they are good refs and i never had any complaints to made about them. Plus there is Mitrea who was at the world cup and reffed his 2nd pro12 game this weekend.. So thats 5 Scottish/Italian/Romanian refs who could do a job week in week out but are nowhere to be seen.

The problem isn't about availability but it is a logistic problem and the travel cost too much to the league to have neutral referees but it is definitely possible to have neutral referees every game with the right will.

But we need assistant refs as well. We do need more Italian and Scots, methinks. I think Mitrea is actually a decent ref, but if the Italian sides were competing at the top maybe he would get a bit more stick?

Any chance of this discussing the game of rugby any time soon?

We won

VinceWLB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
In a ideal word we would want neutral referees for all Pro12 games.
That cannot occur because Scotland and Italy provide insufficient referees for the league.
So we go with Some Welsh referees in Ireland and some Irish referees in Wales when welsh and irish teams play each other.
The league monitor them and have seen no evidence of bias - they key factor is who is at home not who referees the match.

I actually disagree Geoff, Scotland had a referee, sorry a ginger can't remember his name who was decent enough and is nowhere to be seen, Paterson is pretty bad but arguably no worse than Dudley. Italians have 2 very good ref in Vivarini and Liperini, the latter has disappeared into oblivion and the former is nowhere to be seen, they are good refs and i never had any complaints to made about them. Plus there is Mitrea who was at the world cup and reffed his 2nd pro12 game this weekend.. So thats 5 Scottish/Italian/Romanian refs who could do a job week in week out but are nowhere to be seen.

The problem isn't about availability but it is a logistic problem and the travel cost too much to the league to have neutral referees but it is definitely possible to have neutral referees every game with the right will.

Vince you say Mitrea reffed at the weekend yet say hes nowhere to be seen?

You also say its an issue of cost yet forget that most of the refs have jobs which Im sure are more of a priority to them than their refereeing so it could also be an issue of refs not always being available all of the time

Sorry my bad, only Mitrea is seen and rarely so, ideally we should see him every week.

About your 2nd point, one reason more for refs to become full time pros. Fans deserve better than what we are getting.

Mitrea reffed 12 games last season and has reffed two since the RWC so hows he rarely seen?

What would be done differently if they were full time?

Munchkin wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
In a ideal word we would want neutral referees for all Pro12 games.
That cannot occur because Scotland and Italy provide insufficient referees for the league.
So we go with Some Welsh referees in Ireland and some Irish referees in Wales when welsh and irish teams play each other.
The league monitor them and have seen no evidence of bias - they key factor is who is at home not who referees the match.

I actually disagree Geoff, Scotland had a referee, sorry a ginger can't remember his name who was decent enough and is nowhere to be seen, Paterson is pretty bad but arguably no worse than Dudley. Italians have 2 very good ref in Vivarini and Liperini, the latter has disappeared into oblivion and the former is nowhere to be seen, they are good refs and i never had any complaints to made about them. Plus there is Mitrea who was at the world cup and reffed his 2nd pro12 game this weekend.. So thats 5 Scottish/Italian/Romanian refs who could do a job week in week out but are nowhere to be seen.

The problem isn't about availability but it is a logistic problem and the travel cost too much to the league to have neutral referees but it is definitely possible to have neutral referees every game with the right will.

But we need assistant refs as well. We do need more Italian and Scots, methinks. I think Mitrea is actually a decent ref, but if the Italian sides were competing at the top maybe he would get a bit more stick?

First lets focus on the main ref then we can worry about assistant refs and TMOs. It would be a huge improvement already if every game had a neutral ref and for me it's possible and it's only a matter of will and means. I do think Italian refs aren't getting the respect they deserve, thats true.

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
In a ideal word we would want neutral referees for all Pro12 games.
That cannot occur because Scotland and Italy provide insufficient referees for the league.
So we go with Some Welsh referees in Ireland and some Irish referees in Wales when welsh and irish teams play each other.
The league monitor them and have seen no evidence of bias - they key factor is who is at home not who referees the match.

I actually disagree Geoff, Scotland had a referee, sorry a ginger can't remember his name who was decent enough and is nowhere to be seen, Paterson is pretty bad but arguably no worse than Dudley. Italians have 2 very good ref in Vivarini and Liperini, the latter has disappeared into oblivion and the former is nowhere to be seen, they are good refs and i never had any complaints to made about them. Plus there is Mitrea who was at the world cup and reffed his 2nd pro12 game this weekend.. So thats 5 Scottish/Italian/Romanian refs who could do a job week in week out but are nowhere to be seen.

The problem isn't about availability but it is a logistic problem and the travel cost too much to the league to have neutral referees but it is definitely possible to have neutral referees every game with the right will.

Vince you say Mitrea reffed at the weekend yet say hes nowhere to be seen?

You also say its an issue of cost yet forget that most of the refs have jobs which Im sure are more of a priority to them than their refereeing so it could also be an issue of refs not always being available all of the time

Sorry my bad, only Mitrea is seen and rarely so, ideally we should see him every week.

About your 2nd point, one reason more for refs to become full time pros. Fans deserve better than what we are getting.

Mitrea reffed 12 games last season and has reffed two since the RWC so hows he rarely seen?

What would be done differently if they were full time?

They wouldn't have anything other than Rugby to worry about and would be available every week, a big difference.

VinceWLB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
In a ideal word we would want neutral referees for all Pro12 games.
That cannot occur because Scotland and Italy provide insufficient referees for the league.
So we go with Some Welsh referees in Ireland and some Irish referees in Wales when welsh and irish teams play each other.
The league monitor them and have seen no evidence of bias - they key factor is who is at home not who referees the match.

I actually disagree Geoff, Scotland had a referee, sorry a ginger can't remember his name who was decent enough and is nowhere to be seen, Paterson is pretty bad but arguably no worse than Dudley. Italians have 2 very good ref in Vivarini and Liperini, the latter has disappeared into oblivion and the former is nowhere to be seen, they are good refs and i never had any complaints to made about them. Plus there is Mitrea who was at the world cup and reffed his 2nd pro12 game this weekend.. So thats 5 Scottish/Italian/Romanian refs who could do a job week in week out but are nowhere to be seen.

The problem isn't about availability but it is a logistic problem and the travel cost too much to the league to have neutral referees but it is definitely possible to have neutral referees every game with the right will.

Vince you say Mitrea reffed at the weekend yet say hes nowhere to be seen?

You also say its an issue of cost yet forget that most of the refs have jobs which Im sure are more of a priority to them than their refereeing so it could also be an issue of refs not always being available all of the time

Sorry my bad, only Mitrea is seen and rarely so, ideally we should see him every week.

About your 2nd point, one reason more for refs to become full time pros. Fans deserve better than what we are getting.

Mitrea reffed 12 games last season and has reffed two since the RWC so hows he rarely seen?

What would be done differently if they were full time?

They wouldn't have anything other than Rugby to worry about and would be available every week, a big difference.

I noticed you ignored the Mitrea issue

And how does thinking about rugby non stop improve them? I only offered their unavailability as a possibility 10 mins ago yet you wanted full time refs before that so do you know why you want them?

VinceWLB wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
In a ideal word we would want neutral referees for all Pro12 games.
That cannot occur because Scotland and Italy provide insufficient referees for the league.
So we go with Some Welsh referees in Ireland and some Irish referees in Wales when welsh and irish teams play each other.
The league monitor them and have seen no evidence of bias - they key factor is who is at home not who referees the match.

I actually disagree Geoff, Scotland had a referee, sorry a ginger can't remember his name who was decent enough and is nowhere to be seen, Paterson is pretty bad but arguably no worse than Dudley. Italians have 2 very good ref in Vivarini and Liperini, the latter has disappeared into oblivion and the former is nowhere to be seen, they are good refs and i never had any complaints to made about them. Plus there is Mitrea who was at the world cup and reffed his 2nd pro12 game this weekend.. So thats 5 Scottish/Italian/Romanian refs who could do a job week in week out but are nowhere to be seen.

The problem isn't about availability but it is a logistic problem and the travel cost too much to the league to have neutral referees but it is definitely possible to have neutral referees every game with the right will.

But we need assistant refs as well. We do need more Italian and Scots, methinks. I think Mitrea is actually a decent ref, but if the Italian sides were competing at the top maybe he would get a bit more stick?

First lets focus on the main ref then we can worry about assistant refs and TMOs. It would be a huge improvement already if every game had a neutral ref and for me it's possible and it's only a matter of will and means. I do think Italian refs aren't getting the respect they deserve, thats true.

My point was that sometimes the main refs are assistant refs, and Italians will use assistant refs for home games. Assistant refs also become main refs.

I think the only benefit with neutral refs is that it satisfies the prejudice of fans, not the refs. But I would still think it's a benefit for this reason. It will give them less opportunity to complain, and possibly create the impression of being more fair.

The will is there already, to do something to raise the standard. The means? It's not like people a forming a que to get into ref school, and considering the abuse refs get I can understand why.

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
In a ideal word we would want neutral referees for all Pro12 games.
That cannot occur because Scotland and Italy provide insufficient referees for the league.
So we go with Some Welsh referees in Ireland and some Irish referees in Wales when welsh and irish teams play each other.
The league monitor them and have seen no evidence of bias - they key factor is who is at home not who referees the match.

I actually disagree Geoff, Scotland had a referee, sorry a ginger can't remember his name who was decent enough and is nowhere to be seen, Paterson is pretty bad but arguably no worse than Dudley. Italians have 2 very good ref in Vivarini and Liperini, the latter has disappeared into oblivion and the former is nowhere to be seen, they are good refs and i never had any complaints to made about them. Plus there is Mitrea who was at the world cup and reffed his 2nd pro12 game this weekend.. So thats 5 Scottish/Italian/Romanian refs who could do a job week in week out but are nowhere to be seen.

The problem isn't about availability but it is a logistic problem and the travel cost too much to the league to have neutral referees but it is definitely possible to have neutral referees every game with the right will.

Vince you say Mitrea reffed at the weekend yet say hes nowhere to be seen?

You also say its an issue of cost yet forget that most of the refs have jobs which Im sure are more of a priority to them than their refereeing so it could also be an issue of refs not always being available all of the time

Sorry my bad, only Mitrea is seen and rarely so, ideally we should see him every week.

About your 2nd point, one reason more for refs to become full time pros. Fans deserve better than what we are getting.

Mitrea reffed 12 games last season and has reffed two since the RWC so hows he rarely seen?

What would be done differently if they were full time?

They wouldn't have anything other than Rugby to worry about and would be available every week, a big difference.

I noticed you ignored the Mitrea issue

And how does thinking about rugby non stop improve them? I only offered their unavailability as a possibility 10 mins ago yet you wanted full time refs before that so do you know why you want them?

You are pedantic, wish some Irish ref (and a certain Welsh ref too) were the same

Mitrea reffed 12 games thats true but that means he also missed 10 rounds, a bit too much, imo.

You don't think a referee doing his job everyday and refereeing pro games every weekend wouldn't improve? Thats what the league should be aiming for.

VinceWLB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
In a ideal word we would want neutral referees for all Pro12 games.
That cannot occur because Scotland and Italy provide insufficient referees for the league.
So we go with Some Welsh referees in Ireland and some Irish referees in Wales when welsh and irish teams play each other.
The league monitor them and have seen no evidence of bias - they key factor is who is at home not who referees the match.

I actually disagree Geoff, Scotland had a referee, sorry a ginger can't remember his name who was decent enough and is nowhere to be seen, Paterson is pretty bad but arguably no worse than Dudley. Italians have 2 very good ref in Vivarini and Liperini, the latter has disappeared into oblivion and the former is nowhere to be seen, they are good refs and i never had any complaints to made about them. Plus there is Mitrea who was at the world cup and reffed his 2nd pro12 game this weekend.. So thats 5 Scottish/Italian/Romanian refs who could do a job week in week out but are nowhere to be seen.

The problem isn't about availability but it is a logistic problem and the travel cost too much to the league to have neutral referees but it is definitely possible to have neutral referees every game with the right will.

Vince you say Mitrea reffed at the weekend yet say hes nowhere to be seen?

You also say its an issue of cost yet forget that most of the refs have jobs which Im sure are more of a priority to them than their refereeing so it could also be an issue of refs not always being available all of the time

Sorry my bad, only Mitrea is seen and rarely so, ideally we should see him every week.

About your 2nd point, one reason more for refs to become full time pros. Fans deserve better than what we are getting.

Mitrea reffed 12 games last season and has reffed two since the RWC so hows he rarely seen?

What would be done differently if they were full time?

They wouldn't have anything other than Rugby to worry about and would be available every week, a big difference.

I noticed you ignored the Mitrea issue

And how does thinking about rugby non stop improve them? I only offered their unavailability as a possibility 10 mins ago yet you wanted full time refs before that so do you know why you want them?

You are pedantic, wish some Irish ref (and a certain Welsh ref too) were the same

Mitrea reffed 12 games thats true but that means he also missed 10 rounds, a bit too much, imo.

You don't think a referee doing his job everyday and refereeing pro games every weekend wouldn't improve? Thats what the league should be aiming for.

Mitrea is also a test referee so would miss games during international windows

The automatic assumption you and others make is that full time refs are automatically better, you are also assuming that the refs want to go full time