Pakistan vs England ODI series

First topic message reminder :

The ODI series starts today, details of the fixtures in the 4 match series are as follows:
   
   Wed Nov 11 (50 ovs) 15:00 local (11:00 GMT)
   1st ODI - England v Pakistan Sheikh Zayed Stadium, Abu Dhabi D/N
 
   Fri Nov 13 (50 ovs) 15:00 local (11:00 GMT)
   2nd ODI - England v Pakistan Sheikh Zayed Stadium, Abu Dhabi D/N
   
   Tue Nov 17 (50 ovs) 15:00 local (11:00 GMT)
   3rd ODI - England v Pakistan Sharjah Cricket Stadium D/N
 
   Fri Nov 20 (50 ovs) 15:00 local (11:00 GMT)
   4th ODI - England v Pakistan Dubai International Cricket Stadium D/N

Problem for Pakistan is that they do not bat deep

Rashid removes Babar. England chipping away, just need to keep on.

Don't really see the Woakes love to be honest.

Rashid also gets Rizwan

Get Malik soon and that's probably game

Mad for Chelsea wrote:special special innings from Buttler. His first 50 took 30 balls, which you'd take anytime, but his second fifty was twice as fast. Simply superb Looks like his nice little knock in the previous game has done him the world of good.

What was so impressive today was the placed fours to go with the huge sixes. I'd highlight three in particular. There was a pull shot past square-leg (up in the circle) off a slower ball bouncer from Anwar, where he waited perfectly. There was a glide to third-man (up in the ring) off an attempted wide yorker from Wahab which was a bit full, and that gorgeous flick past square-leg off Wahab's slower ball in the last over. Just such quick ability to recognise where he can score a boundary from any particular delivery, and of course to execute. Beautiful to watch.

Re Test team, I think Buttler himself said that in the last six months he's been listening to too many people, overcomplicating things, and thinking too much about how bowlers are going to try to get him out rather than how he's going to score runs against them. Seemed to have gone back to something much simpler today, and boy did it work. I'd definitely have him in the Test team, but then I'm a big supporter of the guy.

MfC - good and informative post. Yep, Buttler's innings was incredibly special.

He overshadowed Roy but I'll still give a shout out to my boy. I liked and very much identified with Ramprakash's comments on Sky during the interval. Roy wasn't at his fluent best but that in some ways made his first ODI century even more of an achievement. He stuck it out and didn't throw his wicket away. Sure, he had a bit of luck but that was probably overdue. Roy's always had the raw talent but not always a good reading of a match situation or the maturity required to handle it. Today's innings hopefully points to further development in those latter regards.

An excellent catch from Hales removes Malik, Pakistan in trouble now

Still quite annoyed that we've found out how to play odi's literally as soon as the only odi competition meaning anything finishes

Olly wrote:Put him back in the test side and how about people just let him play his natural game rather than messing with his head

With the depth of our batting line up in tests, theres more than enough scope for Jos to come in and have a whack at 7

Not sure this can be an excuse every time an aggressive player fails at Test level. From everything I've seen from Bayliss and Farbrace, I think they'd absolutely let him play his natural game. Buttler hasn't been in poor touch because people have messed with his head, it's because he forgot which end of the bat to hold. Not always the coaches fault.

Having said that, this knock just goes with what I said on the Test squad thread. Buttler has a ceiling that is just in a different stratosphere to Bairstow, hence why I'd have him straight back in the Test team. And I said that before today.

Without having seen it yet, Roy's knock is an important one for him. He's flashed potential so far, without actually delivering a huge score yet and I felt he could have been the one to make way when Stokes came back (Ali to open) with the desire to get another bowler in. Some good selection problems now though!

Olly wrote:Still quite annoyed that we've found out how to play odi's literally as soon as the only odi competition meaning anything finishes

And we'll probably forget by the time the next one comes round!

Anyway, a good series win with several players and the group as a whole kicking on.

guildfordbat wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:...

MfC - good and informative post. Yep, Buttler's innings was incredibly special.

He overshadowed Roy but I'll still give a shout out to my boy. I liked and very much identified with Ramprakash's comments on Sky during the interval. Roy wasn't at his fluent best but that in some ways made his first ODI century even more of an achievement. He stuck it out and didn't throw his wicket away. Sure, he had a bit of luck but that was probably overdue. Roy's always had the raw talent but not always a good reading of a match situation or the maturity required to handle it. Today's innings hopefully points to further development in those latter regards.

Yep, quite right to shout out to your boy. Lovely, controlled innings from him today which laid the platform for the later havoc. I've been a fan of Roy for a while now, albeit less vocal than other of his supporters. He, like Hales and of course Buttler himself, has that "something special about him" feel. England seem to have understood that these players deserve persevering with, even after some poor/average performances, because once they find their feet at the top level they can make all the difference. It's worth remembering that Buttler himself took a while to find his feet, particularly in T20s.

Good win for England today. Brave effort from Pakistan, but never easy to chase 350 obviously, and they were always a wicket or two down on where they'd have liked to be. Ultimately four guys scored between 36 and 52, including their three experienced players, getting out in some pretty ordinary ways. If one of those guys had done what Roy did, the outcome could have been very different.

Thought Rashid did pretty well, albeit taking some tap. Shout out to Hales for two very good catches off Pakistan's top scorers (particularly the Malik one) after a horror drop earlier on. For Pakistan, there's a lot to like about Babar Azam, looks a lovely player. Why Pakistan thought pushing him up to open was a good idea though...

Finally, can't pass without a comment on Hafeez. Lovely batsman, but his running between the wickets is a disgrace, and simply not good enough in the modern game for an international player. It's not just the run outs, it's the amount of times he fails to put pressure on fielders too. He doesn't call at all.

They should have him feign an injury for a runner

JDizzle wrote:

Olly wrote:Put him back in the test side and how about people just let him play his natural game rather than messing with his head

With the depth of our batting line up in tests, theres more than enough scope for Jos to come in and have a whack at 7

Not sure this can be an excuse every time an aggressive player fails at Test level. From everything I've seen from Bayliss and Farbrace, I think they'd absolutely let him play his natural game. Buttler hasn't been in poor touch because people have messed with his head, it's because he forgot which end of the bat to hold. Not always the coaches fault.

Having said that, this knock just goes with what I said on the Test squad thread. Buttler has a ceiling that is just in a different stratosphere to Bairstow, hence why I'd have him straight back in the Test team. And I said that before today.

Without having seen it yet, Roy's knock is an important one for him. He's flashed potential so far, without actually delivering a huge score yet and I felt he could have been the one to make way when Stokes came back (Ali to open) with the desire to get another bowler in. Some good selection problems now though!

Pretty sure Buttler has said his head has been all over the place so to speak? Either way it'll be fine now!

You're spot on about the ceilings of Buttler/Bairstow. We've seen with Buttler in T20/ODI stuff he's taken a little time to get upto speed, but once he gets there he's a monster. Imagine if he cracks tests - he could be Gilchrist-esque coming in down the order.

Should also be noted England have won pretty comfortably minus Finn, one of our better ODI bowlers of recent times. I'm not sure where Stokes comes back into this side (maybe for Rashid on less spin friendly tracks?) but as you say we have some pretty good options! Even when you think you've got guys like Vince, Bairstow, Billings in reserve...pretty scary potential coming through the ranks.

Olly wrote:

JDizzle wrote:

Olly wrote:Put him back in the test side and how about people just let him play his natural game rather than messing with his head

With the depth of our batting line up in tests, theres more than enough scope for Jos to come in and have a whack at 7

Not sure this can be an excuse every time an aggressive player fails at Test level. From everything I've seen from Bayliss and Farbrace, I think they'd absolutely let him play his natural game. Buttler hasn't been in poor touch because people have messed with his head, it's because he forgot which end of the bat to hold. Not always the coaches fault.

Having said that, this knock just goes with what I said on the Test squad thread. Buttler has a ceiling that is just in a different stratosphere to Bairstow, hence why I'd have him straight back in the Test team. And I said that before today.

Without having seen it yet, Roy's knock is an important one for him. He's flashed potential so far, without actually delivering a huge score yet and I felt he could have been the one to make way when Stokes came back (Ali to open) with the desire to get another bowler in. Some good selection problems now though!

Pretty sure Buttler has said his head has been all over the place so to speak? Either way it'll be fine now!

You're spot on about the ceilings of Buttler/Bairstow. We've seen with Buttler in T20/ODI stuff he's taken a little time to get upto speed, but once he gets there he's a monster. Imagine if he cracks tests - he could be Gilchrist-esque coming in down the order.

Should also be noted England have won pretty comfortably minus Finn, one of our better ODI bowlers of recent times. I'm not sure where Stokes comes back into this side (maybe for Rashid on less spin friendly tracks?) but as you say we have some pretty good options! Even when you think you've got guys like Vince, Bairstow, Billings in reserve...pretty scary potential coming through the ranks.

Oh yeah, probably. I'm just saying that was more than likely the by product of getting a few low scores and then it just snowballs from there, rather than anyone messing with his head and trying to get him to be something he's not.

Without a doubt. He's the most destructive batsman we've had come into the side since Pietersen, and I'd expect him to finish up as a better ODI player than KP - KP's ODI record doesn't do him justice and Buttler genuinely has that much ability in my opinion. Whilst he'll never get to KPs level in tests, he's got the ability play some absolutely special, game winning knocks if he just gets his method straight in his head. Fingers crossed!

Re. Stokes, I actually like Rashid in ODIs in pretty much all conditions. Leggies are much tougher to play in ODIs and he could offer us something completely different in the middle overs. Plus is Stokes the next best seamer we have, because if he is coming in for Rash then his batting shouldn't come into it much.

On Roy, I'm concerned about his propensity to plant his front foot and then thrust his hands to catch up. Only watched the highlights, but it happened a few times and because he's almost late on it, it causes a few edges and is definitely something to work on.

Hales, Roy, Root, Morgan, Taylor, Buttler, Moeen, Woakes, Rash, Willey, Finn - has a really nice balances attack for me and flexibility in the batting, just whether you have enough bowling options.

Well now - I am very grateful to my cat for waking me up in time to catch the last eight overs of the England innings : what a wonderful exhibition of destructive batting from Buttler !
Hard not to feel sorry for the Pakistan bowlers ... didn't matter much where they bowled - it just kept disappearing into the stands ....

When Buttler is in this kind of touch he really does look fit to rate with Gilchrist or De Villiers (though the question of whether he can ever translate it into the five day format is one for another day). Taylor did a good job of scoring singles and leaving the fireworks to his partner. Certainly couldn't accuse England of failing to finish off the innings today !

Saw the early batting of Roy and must confess I am a little surprised his luck held to a century ; he must have settled down a bit ? But clearly he and Root set things up nicely ...and Joss did the rest. Pakistan were surely never getting near that total.

Good ODI win for England. But perhaps before we all get too excited we might reflect that the same thing happened on the previous UAE tour : heavy (much heavier !) defeat in the Tests was followed by thumping wins in the ODIs... that didn't actually lead to World Cup glory.
Not to worry now though - good start for a mostly youthful side , hope they continue to thrive.

Good enough performance from England. Pakistan are as bad at the limited overs format in the Emirates as they are imperious in the five day stuff.

As for England. Jos Buttler is a once in a generation talent. Hope this causes a rethink regarding his spot in Test team (there's no reason it should... but lets hope it does). Overall, ACSU pending, I thought it a decent series. Lots of answers for both teams. England continue to look competitive in the ODI format.

The ODI side is taking shape quite nicely. You have 5 players who can score at better than a run a ball, then the more steady accumulation of Root and Taylor who both score at a good rate without taking so many risks

The bowling showed promise for an almost B team attack. All had their moments and there were no real off days as a whole.

I have always said that Buttler that something extra about him and that England should persist with him. Bairsstow isn't a better keeper, and though he has the looks of a slightly better bat at times, Buttler's impact factor is at a different level, and think he should be right back in for the South Africa tests.
South Africa dropped Quinton de Kock for the India tests and brought in Dane Vilas. QdK then worked his way back to form during the A series against India A and in the ODI series against India he hit a couple of tons, the selectors persisted with Vilas though, and SA has seemed a lesser side for that. Hope England wouldn't make the same mistake.

Not sure if this has been discussed, but allegations of suspicious betting patterns during the 3rd ODI

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-3326978/England-s-win-Pakistan-ODI-investigated-ICC-s-anti-corruption-unit-suspicious-betting-patterns-emerge.html

LondonTiger wrote:Not sure if this has been discussed, but allegations of suspicious betting patterns during the 3rd ODI

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-3326978/England-s-win-Pakistan-ODI-investigated-ICC-s-anti-corruption-unit-suspicious-betting-patterns-emerge.html

Let's hope this is all about the Daily Mail's track record, not any players. It's been a fascinating series where England quite simply seem to have risen to the challenge. As for the dismissals in the 3rd ODI, let's not forget that at least one of the run outs was a smart piece of fielding - a direct hit: try betting on that, and that England also dropped some easy-looking catches and missed a stumping or two along the way over the series.

I'd prefer to focus on the positives on both sides, of which there were many, especially for England, whose top order now looks reassuringly secure. Roy-Hales-Root-Morgan-Taylor-Stokes-Buttler (not necessarily always in that order) looks very exciting to me.

Pakistan have also lost 8/9 series in UAE. Maybe they've just continued to suck?

Whatever Michael Vaughan thinks, I think the opposite.

fixing has cast a shadow on this series

Let's wait until something is proved before we start lambasting people

Olly wrote:Let's wait until something is proved before we start lambasting people

when it's proved......it wouldn't be a mere " cast a shadow" as I have said.
It would be a crime then.

Any-way even the shadow of doubt in a country ( UAE) that has a history of fixing .....has made it tough for Pak to get a series with India there

But it's okay to host the IPL and have the ICC headquarters there...

JDizzle wrote:But it's okay to host the IPL and have the ICC headquarters there...

ICC's HQ is for only tax reasons.

there is a shadow of doubt even over the IPL that was held there

There has been a huge shadow of doubt over all the IPL competitions. Not a surprise as India is second only to china for illegal/unlicensed gambling activity.

for those who missed it, or want to relive it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QypObDwbuw

LondonTiger wrote:There has been a huge shadow of doubt over all the IPL competitions. Not a surprise as India is second only to china for illegal/unlicensed gambling activity.

They are masala entertainment games

Mad for Chelsea wrote:for those who missed it, or want to relive it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QypObDwbuw

Already watched this about 20 times. Up there with KP's hundred against the Saffers at Headingley for the most outrageous innings I've seen played by an Englishman

Wow! Cracking innings - some of those shots!

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:Wow! Cracking innings - some of those shots!

Corporal - almost as cracking as when I saw Pietersen batter Kerrigan and the rest of the Lancs attack at Guildford, you know the day after you and Chichester were there with me! Sorry!!

Mad for Chelsea wrote:for those who missed it, or want to relive it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QypObDwbuw

Just clicked (21:45GMT 24 November) and it says it's been removed for copyright reasons at the request of...

Anyone got another working link to the innings - I'd like to see it

Might as well use this one for the T20 series. Somewhat ridiculously England have only played four T20s (!!!!) since the last T20 WC apparently... Anyway, England have won the toss and batted.

Feels like a very experimental England side, with Vince getting a game, and somewhat bizarrely Buttler and Root left out, alongside Willey and Woakes. Billings takes over the gloves, and England for once have a long-ish tail with Rashid, Jordan and Plunkett at 7,8,9.

Hales Roy Vince Morgan Billings Ali Rashid Jordan Plunkett Parry Topley.

Pakistan have given a debut to a 39 year-old.

Great to see Vince finally get a chance.

Billings playing a cracking innings here too!

great recovery from England after a poor start. 160 feels like a decent score on a pretty slow pitch (slow outfield too). Vince and Morgan played well, but the key knock came from Billings, pushed England 15-20 runs higher than what they looked like getting. Excellent innings.

Pleased Vince got his chance, and did well in conditions he can't have encountered too often. One slight criticism would be the number of dot balls he faced, but still, a good knock, and an important one for the team.

Interesting that Pakistan only played one spinner (and Afridi hardly a classical spinner at that) though their seamers bowled plenty of slower balls, generally pretty successfully. Topley could do well here, and it will be interesting to see how England's trio of spinners go...

Good to see Vince and Billings taking their chance.

The flip side though is that england have played just 4 T20s since the last world cup and Root and Buttler rarely play in domestic T20 - so could have done with practice at this format.

Billings like Buttler needs to be stuck with through his learning phase, because he has ridiculous talent

Is Root really a t20 player though?

Two players racing each other to the same end, easily the funniest thing that happens in cricket

good 14 run win..MOM surelyt Billings..

jimbohammers wrote:Is Root really a t20 player though?

his international T20 record says yes.

Thought that we were good for the last 15 overs of our innings and first 15 of theirs.

Rashid bowled Masqood with a googly that should've been 18+ viewing

That innings was Shahid Afridi's career in microcosm

Olly wrote:Rashid bowled Masqood with a googly that should've been 18+ viewing

Sorry, do not understand what you mean?

so, an interesting couple of games for England, with two good wins and some fine performances. It possibly though has raised more questions than it has answered with respect to the squad and team for the T20 WC. Plunkett in particular, who I'm not sure England saw as much of a T20 player prior to this, has done very well indeed and has surely forced his way in.

I don't know what the situation is with Broad, but don't think he's played enough T20 cricket in recent times in any case, so would probably leave him out.

Question marks over Finn's fitness, but let's assume for the moment he'll be fit.

So let's have a look at who could make the squad:

Hales Roy Root are nailed on you'd think.

Vince has done very well in his two games, he'll be a tad disappointed to not produce the bigger innings but still, two good knocks and probably makes the squad at this time.

Morgan, Buttler nailed on.

Billings has done enough here. England clearly rate him above Bairstow in this form, so he goes as a batting option and reserve keeper.

Stokes? Not sure T20 is his best format, but the type of player who you'd like around, can change a game with bat, ball or in the field. I think there's room for him.

I suspect England would like to take all three spinners Moeen, Rashid and Parry who've all done pretty well here. In subcontinent conditions, I think the different options are important.

That would leave four spots for seamers, which is where it gets tricky. Topley for me is a must: swing up front if there is any, and a good death bowler. Plunkett's extra pace is an excellent asset, he's in.

That leaves two more spots. I think Woakes takes one of them. Another good death option, useful runs down the order too. For the final spot for me it's between Willey and Finn. Finn gives you extra pace and bounce, Willey the useful left-arm option as well as top fielding and useful batting. Tempted on balance to go with Willey, particularly with Finn's fitness issues (he strikes me as someone who needs a fair bit of bowling to get back to his best).

So there is my T20 squad:

Hales
Roy
Root
Vince
Morgan (capt.)
Billings
Buttler
Stokes
Moeen Ali
Rashid
Woakes
Willey
Plunkett
Parry
Topley

Thoughts?

I think you're spot on MFC - and that's a really promising squad. What would be your XI from that then?

aha, that's where it gets much trickier! Picking a squad, up to one or two places, turned out to be actually much easier, but picking the team from there? Tricky.

Let's start with those who should definitely be in an XI.

Hales and Roy to open. Morgan obviously at 4 or 5. Buttler. Five bowlers, most likely three seamers and two spinners. Think Plunkett and Topley should be there.

So:
Hales
Roy
?
Morgan
?
Buttler
?
?
Plunkett
?
Topley

The first two question marks for me boil down to a choice of two from Root Vince and Billings. You could also pick one of Moeen or Stokes there to have six genuine bowling options, but I think the three batsmen mentioned are better batsmen in this form. Root is classy (he does have a top score of 90 in T20s so can score very quickly), he also adds a useful sixth bowling option if necessary (I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with Roy as a back-up bowler...), so he plays. Then it's really about balance: do you want Billings's late explosiveness, or a bit more stability at the top of the order with Vince. Very close, but I'm going to side with Billings, just.

Now, the two spinners. I think Moeen is in. He's shown on several occasions that he's not the easiest bowler to really get after, and of course he adds a lot with the bat. Parry has bowled very nicely at times in the last two games, while Rahid did well in the last game too. Not much between them, but might just be tempted to go with Rashid, as slightly worried teams will work out how to really get after Parry.

Last spot between Willey and Woakes, and while there's a lot to like about Willey, I feel Woakes is the more dependable death option, so would go with him. So:

Hales
Roy
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Billings
Moeen (could be pushed up the order if early loss of wickets)
Rashid
Plunkett
Woakes
Topley

Hmm now you see I'd go like this

Roy
Hales
Root
Morgan
Buttler
Ali
Willey
Woakes
Plunkett
Rashid
Topley

I think you need that 6th bowling option, and Ali/Willey/Woakes/Plunkett/Rashid are all good enough with the bat to make up for no Vince/Billings.

I would say this, wouldn't I, but...

I'm pretty sure that in the next couple of years, three Surrey genuine all rounders will come into the picture: Ansari (most probably vying with Parry/Rashid), and one or both of the Curran brothers (Topley looking anxiously over his shoulder?).