Pontypridd gone

wayne wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

wayne wrote:

Griff wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Surely clubs like Pontypridd will have some sort of legal case on their hands if Cardiff Blues are going there and just taking players from the Pontypridd's, or any other club's, set-up.

On what grounds will they have a legal case? Ponty's (or Merthyr's, or whoever's) best players will still go to the Blues, that's the route intended for them - unless another region, or in theory an English or French club, come in for them instead. And any player, with any ambition, will want to play pro rugby rather than Principality Premiership rugby.

Pontypridd aren't the Blues' equals. They're a feeder club.

Precisely.

Not quite.  If the Blues are looking at becoming a super-club and not a region, then Ponty are not their feeder team, they are just another rival club.[/quote

They'll always be a feeder club as long as they're at a lower level than the Blues in the 'pyramid'.  And that's with or without regional rugby structures and agreements in place.  Any decent player at a lower level has the potential to be hoovered up by the pro team in that area (or from another area).  So whether an official feeder club or not, with Ponty being semi-pro and the Blues being pro, any talent that can progress will 'feed' from Ponty upwards.  That Blues and Ponty are in the same geographical area ('Reeeeejun'!) makes it more likely that Ponty will be a feeder club to the Blues, whether they like it or not.  That's just geography I'm afraid.  Remember, with Ponty being a semi-pro team there are loads of clubs that essentially are feeder clubs for Pontypridd, i.e. the smaller clubs at the amateur levels whose players have the ambition to reach semi-pro level and beyond.  You don't need WRU structures and agreements in place for that feeder mechanism - it's existed as long as the league structure has been in place.

Interesting debate going on here, as a little extra, don't people remember the disagreement between us and Neath, and the experience of the Tavis Knoyle scenario, he played for us towards the end of one season 08 or 09 IIRC, and by the start of the following season he had signed for the Scarlets, at the time our hierarchy was not best pleased. There is a boy who is at Coleg y Cymoed in Aberdare and his registered club is Treorchy, which I believe is in the Blues catchment area, yet he was named in the U18 squad for us earlier this week, so basically it is not all about Geography.

This suggests that the 4 Pro clubs can recruit from any other club within Wales and the said recruits can join any of the 4 regardless as to where they reside or which club they play for. Which begs the question; when does geography (regional boundaries) enter the equation on these matters? I'm asking coz I don't know btw.

Dave, yes it can happen and already has by the Knoyle fiasco, but the normal relationship between feeder clubs have generally been good, the 2 examples of that relationship us with Neath and you with Ponty not getting along, can upset the applecart, let me just say our bridges have been rebuilt since the demise of Hawkes, somebody further up the line said it wouldn't help either organisation and I certainly agree with that viewpoint.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Knocked joined after his contract with neath had expired, and he did not wish to sign an Ospreys one.  So a free agent.

A region can only utilise players players either contracted to them directly, contracted to a feeder club or on loan.  

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff mun, Cardiff Blues are ye olde Cardiff in a blue woolly jumper (that has worn a bit thin I have to say). You know the rest of the story shewerly?  

No, ye olde Cardiff RFC did not look to the wider region to develop relationships and play the regional game. Nor did anyone else at that time. The new regions however are meant to be doing that, and by and large are doing that. However, I felt that you personally (and the Blues themselves for that matter) wanted to revert back fully to the pre-regional rugby days of insular teams looking adter just themselves and being in competition with everyone else in the local area, so it's nice to see your CEO dude come out and say that the plan is to play the regional game. I just wondered if that upset you personally, given the way I presumed you wanted the Blues to run.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

wayne wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

wayne wrote:

Griff wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Surely clubs like Pontypridd will have some sort of legal case on their hands if Cardiff Blues are going there and just taking players from the Pontypridd's, or any other club's, set-up.

On what grounds will they have a legal case? Ponty's (or Merthyr's, or whoever's) best players will still go to the Blues, that's the route intended for them - unless another region, or in theory an English or French club, come in for them instead. And any player, with any ambition, will want to play pro rugby rather than Principality Premiership rugby.

Pontypridd aren't the Blues' equals. They're a feeder club.

Precisely.

Not quite.  If the Blues are looking at becoming a super-club and not a region, then Ponty are not their feeder team, they are just another rival club.[/quote

They'll always be a feeder club as long as they're at a lower level than the Blues in the 'pyramid'.  And that's with or without regional rugby structures and agreements in place.  Any decent player at a lower level has the potential to be hoovered up by the pro team in that area (or from another area).  So whether an official feeder club or not, with Ponty being semi-pro and the Blues being pro, any talent that can progress will 'feed' from Ponty upwards.  That Blues and Ponty are in the same geographical area ('Reeeeejun'!) makes it more likely that Ponty will be a feeder club to the Blues, whether they like it or not.  That's just geography I'm afraid.  Remember, with Ponty being a semi-pro team there are loads of clubs that essentially are feeder clubs for Pontypridd, i.e. the smaller clubs at the amateur levels whose players have the ambition to reach semi-pro level and beyond.  You don't need WRU structures and agreements in place for that feeder mechanism - it's existed as long as the league structure has been in place.

Interesting debate going on here, as a little extra, don't people remember the disagreement between us and Neath, and the experience of the Tavis Knoyle scenario, he played for us towards the end of one season 08 or 09 IIRC, and by the start of the following season he had signed for the Scarlets, at the time our hierarchy was not best pleased. There is a boy who is at Coleg y Cymoed in Aberdare and his registered club is Treorchy, which I believe is in the Blues catchment area, yet he was named in the U18 squad for us earlier this week, so basically it is not all about Geography.

This suggests that the 4 Pro clubs can recruit from any other club within Wales and the said recruits can join any of the 4 regardless as to where they reside or which club they play for. Which begs the question; when does geography (regional boundaries) enter the equation on these matters? I'm asking coz I don't know btw.

Dave, yes it can happen and already has by the Knoyle fiasco, but the normal relationship between feeder clubs have generally been good, the 2 examples of that relationship us with Neath and you with Ponty not getting along, can upset the applecart, let me just say our bridges have been rebuilt since the demise of Hawkes, somebody further up the line said it wouldn't help either organisation and I certainly agree with that viewpoint.

Knocked joined after his contract with neath had expired, and he did not wish to sign an Ospreys one.  So a free agent.

A region can only utilise players players either contracted to them directly, contracted to a feeder club or on loan.  

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Knocked joined after his contract with neath had expired, and he did not wish to sign an Ospreys one.  So a free agent.

A region can only utilise players players either contracted to them directly, contracted to a feeder club or on loan.  

SS, I knew all that, the crux of the matter was (and he did not wish to sign an Ospreys one). He had all his instruction from the Ospreys, it was only because of the disagreement between Hawkes and Cuddy which impacted on us. Let me just add there were many supporters in our ranks that didn't rate him, and as History has shown they were perfectly right.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Knocked joined after his contract with neath had expired, and he did not wish to sign an Ospreys one.  So a free agent.

A region can only utilise players players either contracted to them directly, contracted to a feeder club or on loan.  

SS, I knew all that, the crux of the matter was (and he did not wish to sign an Ospreys one). He had all his instruction from the Ospreys, it was only because of the disagreement between Hawkes and Cuddy which impacted on us. Let me just add there were many supporters in our ranks that didn't rate him, and as History has shown they were perfectly right.

Played well for us against Zebra mind ewe. Had a bit of zip about him.

Stone Motif wrote:

Steffan wrote:A competitive Premiership is a good thing and I would rather Ponty come second or third in a good league as opposed to finishing top in a one horse race

I'm sure once Merthyr come up and sign players like Dan Carter it will spice things up a bit

At least we are starting to call a spade a spade here now and Cardiff Blues have pretty much confirmed they are no longer going to pretend to be a region anymore

Rather strange that the Pieman is making these changes while also calling for East and West Wales teams

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/need-european-super-15-peter-10301901

Was giving you £250 large per annum for nowt 'pretending' then?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff mun, Cardiff Blues are ye olde Cardiff in a blue woolly jumper (that has worn a bit thin I have to say). You know the rest of the story shewerly?  

No, ye olde Cardiff RFC did not look to the wider region to develop relationships and play the regional game. Nor did anyone else at that time. The new regions however are meant to be doing that, and by and large are doing that. However, I felt that you personally (and the Blues themselves for that matter) wanted to revert back fully to the pre-regional rugby days of insular teams looking adter just themselves and being in competition with everyone else in the local area, so it's nice to see your CEO dude come out and say that the plan is to play the regional game. I just wondered if that upset you personally, given the way I presumed you wanted the Blues to run.

You're wearing me out Griff.
If you read between the lines, the Cardiff CEO "dude" is finally implementing changes in order to strive to achieve what's best for the capital city based pro rugby club aka Cardiff.

Griff wrote:Newwwwwwwwwpooooooort!

Risca Rev wrote:You don't know?

Griff wrote:Thanks Rev. Didn't know and hadn't read it in the match previews or match report. Nice touch.

Thought it was a taste of things to come with the new East Wales region, playing in Newport colours at Cardiff Arms Park!

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Griff mun, Cardiff Blues are ye olde Cardiff in a blue woolly jumper (that has worn a bit thin I have to say). You know the rest of the story shewerly?  

No, ye olde Cardiff RFC did not look to the wider region to develop relationships and play the regional game. Nor did anyone else at that time. The new regions however are meant to be doing that, and by and large are doing that. However, I felt that you personally (and the Blues themselves for that matter) wanted to revert back fully to the pre-regional rugby days of insular teams looking adter just themselves and being in competition with everyone else in the local area, so it's nice to see your CEO dude come out and say that the plan is to play the regional game. I just wondered if that upset you personally, given the way I presumed you wanted the Blues to run.

You're wearing me out Griff.
If you read between the lines, the Cardiff CEO "dude" is finally implementing changes in order to strive to achieve what's best for the capital city based pro rugby club aka Cardiff.

Doesn't answer my question though does it?

Griff wrote:Do you like the idea of Cardiff Blues taking a regional rugby approach (which Holland says is their plan) or do you want Cardiff to be strictly a club with no ties to the wider region, like it used to be before 2003?

Griff wrote:Do you like the idea of Cardiff Blues taking a regional rugby approach (which Holland says is their plan) or do you want Cardiff to be strictly a club with no ties to the wider region, like it used to be before 2003?

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:Do you like the idea of Cardiff Blues taking a regional rugby approach (which Holland says is their plan) or do you want Cardiff to be strictly a club with no ties to the wider region, like it used to be before 2003?

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Griff wrote:Do you like the idea of Cardiff Blues taking a regional rugby approach (which Holland says is their plan) or do you want Cardiff to be strictly a club with no ties to the wider region, like it used to be before 2003?

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:Do you like the idea of Cardiff Blues taking a regional rugby approach (which Holland says is their plan) or do you want Cardiff to be strictly a club with no ties to the wider region, like it used to be before 2003?

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Griff wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:Do you like the idea of Cardiff Blues taking a regional rugby approach (which Holland says is their plan) or do you want Cardiff to be strictly a club with no ties to the wider region, like it used to be before 2003?

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Because if it isn't one or the other then it's both which is a contradiction in terms: you can't have a regional approach and strong relationships with clubs in the region and at the same time have no relationship with them and develop in isolation, obviously.

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:Do you like the idea of Cardiff Blues taking a regional rugby approach (which Holland says is their plan) or do you want Cardiff to be strictly a club with no ties to the wider region, like it used to be before 2003?

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Because if it isn't one or the other then it's both which is a contradiction in terms: you can't have a regional approach and strong relationships with clubs in the region and at the same time have no relationship with them and develop in isolation, obviously.

That assumes that whatever outputs are derived from a regional approach, whatever that is, can't be delivered by a professional club.

Griff wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Griff wrote:Do you like the idea of Cardiff Blues taking a regional rugby approach (which Holland says is their plan) or do you want Cardiff to be strictly a club with no ties to the wider region, like it used to be before 2003?

Why does it have to be one or the other?

Because if it isn't one or the other then it's both which is a contradiction in terms: you can't have a regional approach and strong relationships with clubs in the region and at the same time have no relationship with them and develop in isolation, obviously.

That assumes that whatever outputs are derived from a regional approach, whatever that is, can't be delivered by a professional club.

No it's doesn't because they are professional clubs now and they are delivering on that currently. I was merely asking Dave what his preference was: pre- or post- 2003 structures.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Same Cardiff either way though Griff, with the agreement/responsibiity to develop players for Wales and the English/French club teams

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Same Cardiff either way though Griff, with the agreement/responsibiity to develop players for Wales and the English/French club teams

Fixed that for you