Champions Cup Pool 1: Ulster v Saracens, 20 November

by **George Carlin** Tue 17 Nov 2015, 6:01 am

Champions Cup Pool 1: Ulster v Saracens, 20 November Sarrie10

Ulster Rugby v Saracens
Friday 20 November 2015
KO: 19:45
Kingspan Stadium, Belfast

Live on BT Sport / beIN Sports

Referee Romain Poite (France)
Touch Judge 1 Cyril Lafon (France)
Touch Judge 2 Pierre Brousset (France)
Fourth Official Richard Kerr (Ireland)
TMO Eric Gauzins (France)

A. Head to Head

6 Played 6
1 Wins 5
5 Losses 1
0 Draws 0
98 Points 148

B. Recent Form

5 April 2014
Ulster 15-17 Saracens

6 April 2013
Saracens 27-16 Ulster

C. Teams

Ulster Rugby
Champions Cup Pool 1: Ulster v Saracens, 20 November Christ10

Champions Cup Pool 1: Ulster v Saracens, 20 November Christ10

15. Louis Ludik
14. Andrew Trimble
13. Darren Cave
12. Stuart McCloskey
11. Craig Gilroy
10. Paddy Jackson
09. Ruan Pienaar

01. Callum Black
02. Rory Best (c)
03. Wiehahn Herbst
04. Dan Tuohy
05. Franco Van Der Merwe
06. Iain Henderson
07. Chris Henry
08. Nick Williams

16. Rob Herring
17. Kyle McCall
18. Ricky Lutton
19. Robbie Diack
20. Roger Wilson
21. Paul Marshall
22. Ian Humphreys
23. Peter Nelson

Saracens
Champions Cup Pool 1: Ulster v Saracens, 20 November Keira10

Champions Cup Pool 1: Ulster v Saracens, 20 November Keira10

15 Alex Goode
14 Chris Ashton
13 Duncan Taylor
12 Brad Barritt (c)
11 Chris Wyles
10 Owen Farrell
09 Richard Wigglesworth

01 Mako Vunipola
02 Schalk Brits
03 Petrus Du Plessis
04 George Kruis
05 Maro Itoje
06 Michael Rhodes
07 Jacques Burger
08 Billy Vunipola

16 Jamie George
17 Rhys Gill
18 Juan Figallo
19 Alistair Hargreaves
20 Jackson Wray
21 Neil De Kock
22 Charlie Hodgson
23 Marcelo Bosch

by Pete330v2 Tue 17 Nov 2015, 9:23 am

The big question is do we play them with all 15 players or shall we stand by tradition and only field 14 men?

by **LondonTiger** Tue 17 Nov 2015, 9:45 am

Pete330v2 wrote:The big question is do we play them with all 15 players or shall we stand by tradition and only field 14 men?

How many times have you had someone sent off against them?

by Pete330v2 Tue 17 Nov 2015, 10:10 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:The big question is do we play them with all 15 players or shall we stand by tradition and only field 14 men?

How many times have you had someone sent off against them?

In the last decade we've played half of our games v Saracens with only 14 men. We like a challenge at Ravespanners.

by marty2086 Tue 17 Nov 2015, 10:49 am

Pete330v2 wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:The big question is do we play them with all 15 players or shall we stand by tradition and only field 14 men?

How many times have you had someone sent off against them?

In the last decade we've played half of our games v Saracens with only 14 men. We like a challenge at Ravespanners.

Its even harder when they have 16 Whistle

by Cyril Tue 17 Nov 2015, 11:19 am

Chris Ashton will be looking to enjoy himself again.

Will the pantomime villains be able to overcome the niggly (some would say outright dirty) province?

by **Notch** Tue 17 Nov 2015, 11:26 am

Cyril wrote:Chris Ashton will be looking to enjoy himself again.

Will the pantomime villains be able to overcome the niggly (some would say outright dirty) province?

Great contribution. Well done.

by Pete330v2 Tue 17 Nov 2015, 11:41 am

Cyril wrote:Chris Ashton will be looking to enjoy himself again.

Will the pantomime villains be able to overcome the niggly (some would say outright dirty) province?

I can't work out who you are referring to because we (Ulster) are currently top of the fairplay league whereas the lowest ranking province is Munster. Therefore you must mean Munster and in that case you're on the wrong thread. This is Ulster v Saracens Smile

by Guest Tue 17 Nov 2015, 11:45 am

Cyril wrote:Chris Ashton will be looking to enjoy himself again.

Will the pantomime villains be able to overcome the niggly (some would say outright dirty) province?

So Sarries are merely pantomime villains, and we are a dirty team? Strange comment when you think of the recent salary scandel.

Niggly? I suppose Williams can be described as a niggly player, but Sarries have their own niggly players. I wouldn't say Ulster a niggly team. Maybe they need to be...

by marty2086 Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:10 pm

Cyril wrote:Chris Ashton will be looking to enjoy himself again.

Will the pantomime villains be able to overcome the niggly (some would say outright dirty) province?

Who would say outright dirty?

Considering amongst Sarries ranks they have Burger, Hamilton, Ashton and Farrell who was back at his petulant best against Saints in Round 4 last week

by Cyril Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:16 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Chris Ashton will be looking to enjoy himself again.

Will the pantomime villains be able to overcome the niggly (some would say outright dirty) province?

Who would say outright dirty?

Considering amongst Sarries ranks they have Burger, Hamilton, Ashton and Farrell who was back at his petulant best against Saints in Round 4 last week

It's not one individual player. More the ethos at Ulster. In some ways a win at all costs attitude is admirable but it won't win the hearts of many neutrals.

They differ in some respects, but I think Sarries and Ulster have a fair bit in common in terms at how they're perceived from the outside. Someone on here described them as 'The Saracens of Ireland' and I think that was quite accurate.

by **Notch** Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:20 pm

If you're just going to WUM then you should go off and start your own thread and do it there.

by **George Carlin** Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:29 pm

Can we just park all discussion about the other side's projected 'ethos' right here please? Plenty to talk about without that.

In particular, nobody answered my earlier question about whether you can still buy Nutella crepes at the Kingspan.

by Cyril Tue 17 Nov 2015, 12:38 pm

George Carlin wrote:Can we just park all discussion about the other side's projected 'ethos' right here please? Plenty to talk about without that.

In particular, nobody answered my earlier question about whether you can still buy Nutella crepes at the Kingspan.

No probs

I look forward to the same ruling on Saracens threads from now on.

by The Great Aukster Tue 17 Nov 2015, 1:59 pm

If Saracens are the Toulon of England, they should put a fair few on Ulster based on last season. Thankfully they aren't in that league of buying success at any cost, and with a handy win against a Toulouse team (whose mind was elsewhere), they will be buoyant and relaxed.

Ulster having missed out on the first game will be anxious for action and desperate not to let Saracens open up a big lead in the pool with the potential doubleheader against Oyonnax sealing qualification for them before Christmas.
With Ulster's indifferent form and Sarries record, Mark McCall will be expecting an away win, to reward what should be at least a minibus' load of hand twitchers.

by Pete330v2 Tue 17 Nov 2015, 2:35 pm

So, Hendo was reported as needing 4-6 weeks recovery and that was 4 weeks ago. Sooooo bench spot perhaps ??
Hey I can dream can't I?

by Guest Tue 17 Nov 2015, 3:04 pm

Cyril wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Cyril wrote:Chris Ashton will be looking to enjoy himself again.

Will the pantomime villains be able to overcome the niggly (some would say outright dirty) province?

Who would say outright dirty?

Considering amongst Sarries ranks they have Burger, Hamilton, Ashton and Farrell who was back at his petulant best against Saints in Round 4 last week
It's not one individual player. More the ethos at Ulster. In some ways a win at all costs attitude is admirable but it won't win the hearts of many neutrals.

They differ in some respects, but I think Sarries and Ulster have a fair bit in common in terms at how they're perceived from the outside. Someone on here described them as 'The Saracens of Ireland' and I think that was quite accurate.

Dont like it, debate it or ignore it. Thanks

by Guest Tue 17 Nov 2015, 3:07 pm

Pete330v2 wrote:So, Hendo was reported as needing 4-6 weeks recovery and that was 4 weeks ago. Sooooo bench spot perhaps ??
Hey I can dream can't I?

It would be great to see Henderson back, but very doubtful that he will be back for this game. Ludik will probably start, but Nelson has been playing well at FB, so who knows? Any word on Black and warwick, anyone?

by Pete330v2 Tue 17 Nov 2015, 3:45 pm

I know, Hendo would be a wish too far and I'd rather he wasn't rushed back anyway.
As far as I know Black is fit to play, Warwick still injured (broken jaw)??

by Guest Tue 17 Nov 2015, 6:25 pm

Forgot about the broken jaw, and I also forgot Black was named on the bench last week. That's a double Doh

It will be interesting to see the starting props this week. Think Black will start, but not so sure about Herbst. I don't think Herbst should start unless he's shown himself to be the a better option than Lutton, in training.

by Rory_Gallagher Tue 17 Nov 2015, 7:42 pm

George - I just want to say fair play and a big thanks for making all these match threads!

by Guest Tue 17 Nov 2015, 7:55 pm

Yes, I second that. Many thanks, George. I'm sure it seems it's taken for granted, but very much appreciated.

by yappysnap Tue 17 Nov 2015, 8:53 pm

I really hope Ulster win this, sadly I can see Sarries making it ugly enough to sneak the win.

by **George Carlin** Wed 18 Nov 2015, 7:11 am

Munchkin wrote:Yes, I second that. Many thanks, George. I'm sure it seems it's taken for granted, but very much appreciated.

Thanks for noticing, you guys. Cry

by Pete330v2 Wed 18 Nov 2015, 9:15 am

George Carlin wrote:
Munchkin wrote:Yes, I second that. Many thanks, George. I'm sure it seems it's taken for granted, but very much appreciated.
Thanks for noticing, you guys.

Hey George we always notice, you're one of us now Smile

by **George Carlin** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:35 am

When are the teams out, then?

by **LondonTiger** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 9:53 am

Midday usually for english clubs

by **LondonTiger** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:01 pm

15 Alex Goode
14 Chris Ashton
13 Duncan Taylor
12 Brad Barritt ©
11 Chris Wyles
10 Owen Farrell
9 Richard Wigglesworth
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Schalk Brits
3 Petrus Du Plessis
4 George Kruis
5 Maro Itoje
6 Michael Rhodes
7 Jacques Burger
8 Billy Vunipola
Replacements
16 Jamie George
17 Rhys Gill
18 Juan Figallo
19 Alistair Hargreaves
20 Jackson Wray
21 Neil De Kock
22 Charlie Hodgson
23 Marcelo Bosch

by **LondonTiger** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:02 pm

Disappointingly two players England fans want to be playing and pushing for international starts drop out of the starting team.

Jamie George drops to the bench and Fraser drops out of the squad completely.

by geoff999rugby Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:07 pm

As an Ulster fan delighted George isn't playing I think he has been out performing Brits this year.

We need to target that front row one area we can get on top.

Also no Fraser best 7 available, to either team.

Chris Henry needs a big game now

by **George Carlin** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:08 pm

Is Kelly Brown still broken? What's going on with him?

by geoff999rugby Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:09 pm

Ulster Rugby
15. Louis Ludik; 14. Andrew Trimble, 13. Darren Cave, 12. Stuart McCloskey, 11. Craig Gilroy; 10. Paddy Jackson, 9. Ruan Pienaar; 1. Callum Black, 2. Rory Best (c), 3. Wiehahn Herbst, 4. Dan Tuohy, 5. Franco Van Der Merwe, 6. Iain Henderson, 7. Chris Henry, 8. Nick Williams

16. Rob Herring, 17. Kyle McCall, 18. Ricky Lutton, 19. Robbie Diack, 20. Roger Wilson, 21. Paul Marshall, 22. Ian Humphreys, 23. Peter Nelson

Ian Henderson yea har Yahoo

by **Notch** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:09 pm

Richard Mulligan on twitter says that Iain Henderson is back from injury, and will start. If he is fully fit and firing that is a big, big boost to us.

by **George Carlin** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:10 pm

Those Ulstermen:
Champions Cup Pool 1: Ulster v Saracens, 20 November Ulster10

by Pete330v2 Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:26 pm

Well my dreams of Hendo returning have come true, now for the dream of beating Saracens, even if only by a point, I'd be hitting the ceiling.

by marty2086 Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:34 pm

Wilson back on the bench and Herbst starting though Doh

by Pete330v2 Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:49 pm

Perhaps Herbst has shown something in training to deserve a start and Lutton has proven he's more than capable of making an impact off the bench. I can only hope Wilson has woken up due to the arrival of Kiss and has shown he's ready to prove his worth. I'm very happy with the selection and may even make my first trip to Ravespan in far too long a time.

by formerly known as Sam Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:51 pm

Fraser is being eased back in after last season's injuries and George rotates with Brits on a regular basis. Would have been nice to see if they could have fronted up to the physical Ulster pack.

by Guest Thu 19 Nov 2015, 12:53 pm

I'm trusting that both showed up well in training, marty. Wilson needed a huge kick in the @rse, and hopefully being dropped from the game last week, even if it didn't go ahead, will have motivated him.
Great to see the return of Henderson, and better still to see him in the backrow. That's as strong a team that we have fielded for a long time, and gives me hope that we can beat Sarries.

There is simply no other team that I want us to beat more than Sarries.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 19 Nov 2015, 1:26 pm

This game is going to be brutal. Some pretty huge men on both sides and there'll be no lack of commitment. Heart says Ulster (with Duncan Taylor nevertheless having a great game), head says Sarries.

by geoff999rugby Thu 19 Nov 2015, 1:48 pm

Just would like to point out Ulster won the Fair Play league in 2 of the last 3 years and are currently top of this years Fair Play league

by **rodders** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 2:08 pm

Looking at the weather conditions and the strength of the relative benches it's hard to be too optimistic from an Ulster perspective.

We owe Sarries one but fear we will struggle here.

by **Notch** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 2:27 pm

Very nervous to see the same back row as when we got schooled in the European Cup quarter-final.

by Chunky Norwich Thu 19 Nov 2015, 3:04 pm

Not many Saracens fans on this thread. Do they exist?

by Guest Thu 19 Nov 2015, 3:19 pm

Notch wrote:Very nervous to see the same back row as when we got schooled in the European Cup quarter-final.

And we had Muller, Court, Marshall (on good form) and Payne (FB) then. We bottled that game, and it was away. It was also more than two years ago, and Henderson in particular will have matured from then. I do remember his rampage through their defence though.

We owe them a beating, methinks, and if everyone gives their all, maintaining good discipline, in front of a home crowd, I think we have a chance. Never going to be easy, but a chance.

by **Notch** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 3:28 pm

That was right in the middle of Marshalls run of horrific concussions. It was actually Olding who came on for him when he got knocked out that really shone.

We had Afoa as well, but he looked like he could barely wait to get on the plane to Gloucester at that stage.

by Guest Thu 19 Nov 2015, 4:55 pm

Notch wrote:That was right in the middle of Marshalls run of horrific concussions. It was actually Olding who came on for him when he got knocked out that really shone.

We had Afoa as well, but he looked like he could barely wait to get on the plane to Gloucester at that stage.

Yep, Afoa had his mind elsewhere by then. Very few stood out on the day. Henderson for me was the most obvious. That's history though. Our last game against them, at home, was a vast improvement with the 14 men. If we can play with that level of intensity again I think we can win.

.....with 15 men.

by brennomac Thu 19 Nov 2015, 7:09 pm

With a home crowd, 15 players on the field (hopefully), Hendo back - Ulster should be aiming for a home win. Not easy by any means but that Saracens team is beatable.

by **Notch** Thu 19 Nov 2015, 7:26 pm

Of course we should. It's what we aim for every time we take the pitch at Ravenhill. But this one will be hard; achievable, but hard. I think our motivation will never be better with the new coach feeling and certain players who were considered 'undroppable' being dropped and brought back in for this one with a point to prove.

But we also have exhibited systemic weaknesses which even a coach good enough to work on can't transform overnight, especially in how we address the breakdown once the ball has gone through a few phases. Saracens are well placed to exploit any failure to clear it quickly enough, arguably more well placed than any other team in Europe. We need to not let ourselves get sucked into trying to play all the rugby as we normally do. For some reason, there is a stereotype of us in the English press as a team who will grind out wins and not give the ball much air. When we played Leicester a while back thats what Cockerill said about us and I laughed in disbelief at what he was saying. I think it was a bit of psychological warfare, trying to provoke us into playing the way we generally do play in the Pro12, which would have suited them. If it was, we didn't fall for it- we played a totally bespoke kicking-orientated game plan to grind out an ugly win. Moral victory to Cockerill for us playing the way the way he disparaged us for, actual victory for Ulster. Same again is needed. When we're at home you see us running from deep against all the Pro12 sides and some teams in our league find it hard to deal with. Saracens will eat that up.

It's a slightly bizarre stereotype given the biggest weakness in our game is we try to play too much rugby, with loads of width and neglect the resourcing of rucks... but if living up to it is what we need to do then we should. Doak has always had this vision of us playing expansive, multi-phase rugby and has always tried to coach us that way, but he's not a forwards coach or a breakdown expert and thats where we consistently break down after a few phases. So we need to see that only when appropriate. We need to mix the ugly and the functional with the expansive play.

If we play like we did last time they came here they'll find it very difficult but if we fall short of that, we could be there for the taking. In other words, we need to wait and see!

by Artful_Dodger Fri 20 Nov 2015, 6:55 pm

Saracens team bus pulled up outside the Hilton in Belfast just as I got out of a work conference in the same building today. Figured I could go and spark out Owen Farrell and get a photograph with Jacqes Berger all in one sitting.... then decided the three free drinks I sunk in the space of 5 minutes (I had a bus to catch) after the conference had probably got the better of me and I just went home.

by Sponsored content