Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

So the worst kept secret is out...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12005671/Eddie-Jones-to-be-confirmed-as-England-head-coach-in-next-24-hours.html

Jury's out on this one, will have to see how the 6Ns goes then ponder his selection.

Does Student remind you of posters of a ghostly hue, and all the reincarnations that went with him?

Or is he an angry version of Beshocked, maybe his illigitimate offspring, it may explain the anger and the misplaced love or all things Sarries.




Apologies in advance Beshocked

Gustard signed up then from end of January.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Gustard signed up then from end of January.

I guess that is when the players convene for the 6Ns. Would hope though that gustard is allowed to discuss selection with Jones before then.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Does Student remind you of posters of a ghostly hue, and all the reincarnations that went with him?

Or is he an angry version of Beshocked, maybe his illigitimate offspring, it may explain the anger and the misplaced love or all things Sarries.




Apologies in advance Beshocked

latter rather than former. Most likely....

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Does Student remind you of posters of a ghostly hue, and all the reincarnations that went with him?

Or is he an angry version of Beshocked, maybe his illigitimate offspring, it may explain the anger and the misplaced love or all things Sarries.




Apologies in advance Beshocked

Anger?? Quite a silly remark, I never say anything angry or even heated just would argue that it is anyone who disagrees with this Northampton love in that is here that are angry, feel it is fair to point out when someone is behaving like that and describing them in a valid way e.g a child. Disagree with some of you one here then you get heavily slated but sure I am ok with some keyboard hero thinking that of me. To me you should be allowed to state an opinion on here without then being attacked which has seemed to happen as I didn't agree with the comments about Northampton.

As for a Sarries fan, deary me. Couldn't be much further from the truth, not thinking that England should pick the whole Northampton pack does not make someone a Saracens fan, and for the record cupcake I said I agreed with 2 of 3 front row being Northampton (admittedly nobody else in the team). I assume the name hints at something, from an age that thankfully rugby has moved on from.

B91212 wrote:

Student-A1 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd have to throw Lawes in the mix as well.

Throw him in but would be behind Itoje, Kruis, Attwood and Launchbury. Think he needs a kick up the bum as he has gone from one of first names on team sheet to not so. He was the athletic lock but now Itoje is more athletic and combines a better all round game.

I think Lawes will still be in the 23 if fit and in any kind of form. If EJ wants to play an aggressive defense where people are stopped on (or behind) the gain line then his acceleration and line speed are a valuable asset to have and others follow his lead in that respect, certainly at Saints. I think that was why when it became obvious before the WC the lineout needed Parling to help Youngs out it was Launchbury and not Lawes who gave way (before Lawes injury). Everyone on here could see it was under powered so you have to think the coaches could as well but they still went with it because of what Lawes could do elsewhere.

Still think if fit and on form we will probably see the following-
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes

23. Kitchener/ Slater/ Itoje

Especially with Hartley looking like starting every game if fit and Wood's place in the 23 far from assured.

I was always of the same thinking with Lawes, always bigging him up to my Welsh mates but I think we maybe went a bit over the top. Puts in some monster hits and is excellent in defence overall but not sure his overall game is as good as was made out. As for Launchbury not starting in world cup, I think anyone watching Launchbury this year and last would agree it showed how tactually astute Lancaster was not.

I really hope Lawes gets back to his form of a few years back but at the moment I do think others offer more. But he isn't exactly old and so hopefully he does do just that.

Launchbury was unfit coming into the WC so I can understand the thinking there.

On Waller, he's an excellent prop and would certainly be in with a shot. I don't think he's better then Marler however but could be in the mix with Vuinipola.

Still not overly sold on Brookes but time will tell.

Student-A1 wrote:Anger?? Quite a silly remark, I never say anything angry or even heated.

sorry but when I read your posts you seem extremely vehement, resort to name calling and come across as a very angry young man. Of course what we feel never comes across all that well in a text format.

However anyone who infers from my posts that I am a Grumpy Old Man would be correct.

LondonTiger wrote:

Student-A1 wrote:Anger?? Quite a silly remark, I never say anything angry or even heated.

sorry but when I read your posts you seem extremely vehement, resort to name calling and come across as a very angry young man. Of course what we feel never comes across all that well in a text format.

However anyone who infers from my posts that I am a Grumpy Old Man would be correct.

I do not name call at all. I often get that treatment however if I dare to say something that the experienced coaches on here believe. Maybe sarcastic but only to those who deserve it whoi don't like someone not just agreeing with them.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Launchbury was unfit coming into the WC so I can understand the thinking there.

On Waller, he's an excellent prop and would certainly be in with a shot. I don't think he's better then Marler however but could be in the mix with Vuinipola.

Still not overly sold on Brookes but time will tell.

I just don't see it in Waller, if your going with potential and someone who has star quality then of the young props then Vunipola and Auterac are the ones that excite. Marler even though poor world cup is head and shoulders ahead of any probably but at the moment TH is looking the stronger area as Brookes and Cole both stand outs

That's fair enough, I don't really see it in Brookes but can understand the clamour for the chunky monkey.

Auterac has bags of potential but his technique is not matching his power yet. Waller is very rounded and has a great all round game but Auterac should go further.

Student-A1 wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Does Student remind you of posters of a ghostly hue, and all the reincarnations that went with him?

Or is he an angry version of Beshocked, maybe his illigitimate offspring, it may explain the anger and the misplaced love or all things Sarries.




Apologies in advance Beshocked

Anger?? Quite a silly remark, I never say anything angry or even heated just would argue that it is anyone who disagrees with this Northampton love in that is here that are angry, feel it is fair to point out when someone is behaving like that and describing them in a valid way e.g a child. Disagree with some of you one here then you get heavily slated but sure I am ok with some keyboard hero thinking that of me. To me you should be allowed to state an opinion on here without then being attacked which has seemed to happen as I didn't agree with the comments about Northampton.

As for a Sarries fan, deary me. Couldn't be much further from the truth, not thinking that England should pick the whole Northampton pack does not make someone a Saracens fan, and for the record cupcake I said I agreed with 2 of 3 front row being Northampton (admittedly nobody else in the team). I assume the name hints at something, from an age that thankfully rugby has moved on from.

You must be a very junior "Student" ( more like -D10 than -A1) as you seem to have a problem with reading, I will explain. Nobody on here has suggested a complete England pack should be picked, a rather tongue in cheek comment that the current front row of Waller, Haywood and Brookes would suit England and a compliment to Saints for having a fully English first choice pack, with second choice reserves also being English being published has in your mind become a "Saints for England campaign".

Having said that, with the exception of a wing, Saints could field a very competitive England side, add Dickson, Myler, Stephenson, Burrell, Elliot and Foden and that would be a good game vs the rest. How man English clubs can field that many EQ players that are there or there about international level.

They still play boring rugby

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Student-A1 wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Does Student remind you of posters of a ghostly hue, and all the reincarnations that went with him?

Or is he an angry version of Beshocked, maybe his illigitimate offspring, it may explain the anger and the misplaced love or all things Sarries.




Apologies in advance Beshocked

Anger?? Quite a silly remark, I never say anything angry or even heated just would argue that it is anyone who disagrees with this Northampton love in that is here that are angry, feel it is fair to point out when someone is behaving like that and describing them in a valid way e.g a child. Disagree with some of you one here then you get heavily slated but sure I am ok with some keyboard hero thinking that of me. To me you should be allowed to state an opinion on here without then being attacked which has seemed to happen as I didn't agree with the comments about Northampton.

As for a Sarries fan, deary me. Couldn't be much further from the truth, not thinking that England should pick the whole Northampton pack does not make someone a Saracens fan, and for the record cupcake I said I agreed with 2 of 3 front row being Northampton (admittedly nobody else in the team). I assume the name hints at something, from an age that thankfully rugby has moved on from.

You must be a very junior "Student" ( more like -D10 than -A1) as you seem to have a problem with reading, I will explain. Nobody on here has suggested a complete England pack should be picked, a rather tongue in cheek comment that the current front row of Waller, Haywood and Brookes would suit England and a compliment to Saints for having a fully English first choice pack, with second choice reserves also being English being published has in your mind become a "Saints for England campaign".

Having said that, with the exception of a wing, Saints could field a very competitive England side, add Dickson, Myler, Stephenson, Burrell, Elliot and Foden and that would be a good game vs the rest. How man English clubs can field that many EQ players that are there or there about international level.

Hmmm start off with an insult, classy guy. To be fair I was a student and passed with what would be A* actually graduating with First Class (Hons), so hope that now I can qualify to your highly educated levels.

My comment was too tongue in cheek as I was not of the belief that even the most blinkered here would pick that 8 as starting England pack but you took so much offence that I didn't want Waller in the team, you could not handle this and to say anything else is a lie. Your reaction to me saying I think there are better was to insult me in a very childish manner and if I am honest if you are expecting him to be in the squad I feel you may be dissappointed.

As for the backs comment, well I struggle with a response. Its hard to judge if you were being serious in what you said as was like reading a work of fiction. For all the compliments of the way Northampton play excellent back play is not one of them. I am sure you will jump on me for this, throw some insults from behind the keyboard but I am pretty certain if a poll was done of pundits and fans to pick their best club backline then Northampton would not be in the top 4 let alone best. I can see you have this huge blinkered view of rugby, look if you are happy being a 'Saints' fan then be happy with that, if someone disagrees with you then you really wanna have more about you than to take it as a personal insult and lash out in the manner you have.

LondonTiger wrote:

Student-A1 wrote:Anger?? Quite a silly remark, I never say anything angry or even heated.

sorry but when I read your posts you seem extremely vehement, resort to name calling and come across as a very angry young man. Of course what we feel never comes across all that well in a text format.

However anyone who infers from my posts that I am a Grumpy Old Man would be correct.

I thought all Leicester fans were grumpy old men. Including the women.

Chippy comments. Mullan all the way anyway!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Chippy comments. Mullan all the way anyway!

I forgot Mullan to be honest, excellent player and one I think warrants a place ahead of a fair few. Was always gutted when Wasps got him as has great potential on top of already being excellent.

Doc, for a Leicester fan being a grumpy old man/woman is normal, they are the Les Dawsons of supporters, always grumpy but funny with it. Saints fans are the Lenny Henrys of supporters, consistently amusing without achieving the heights of the grumpy old men, well over the past 30 years anyway.

Student, I am not sure your tongue reaches your cheek, you made comment about Saints supporters actually thinking that the Saints pack should all be picked, if that was TIC you need to lighten your tone. With regard to your comments on back play, Dickson, Myler, Burrell and Foden are all internationals ( I think Myler got a cap in Argentina) and have been part of the EPS for some time when not injured, that leaves Stephenson and Elliot. Stephenson is a junior international and widely tipped by more than just Saints fans to go further, Elliot is a throw back to when wingers were wingers, fast agile and skilful and will happily show Cipriani how to tackle a bus properly. He would not let England down although there are better choices. Your comments show an immaturity that has ghostly overtones, it is a pity you do not live and post by your own comments.

"if someone disagrees with you then you really wanna have more about you than to take it as a personal insult and lash out in the manner you have."

By the way, what does "wanna" mean, as a poor comprehensive reject I do not understand the word, I am sure that it was not a word taught at my school.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Doc, for a Leicester fan being a grumpy old man/woman is normal, they are the Les Dawsons of supporters, always grumpy but funny with it. Saints fans are the Lenny Henrys of supporters, consistently amusing without achieving the heights of the grumpy old men, well over the past 30 years anyway.

Student, I am not sure your tongue reaches your cheek, you made comment about Saints supporters actually thinking that the Saints pack should all be picked, if that was TIC you need to lighten your tone. With regard to your comments on back play, Dickson, Myler, Burrell and Foden are all internationals ( I think Myler got a cap in Argentina) and have been part of the EPS for some time when not injured, that leaves Stephenson and Elliot. Stephenson is a junior international and widely tipped by more than just Saints fans to go further, Elliot is a throw back to when wingers were wingers, fast agile and skilful and will happily show Cipriani how to tackle a bus properly. He would not let England down although there are better choices. Your comments show an immaturity that has ghostly overtones, it is a pity you do not live and post by your own comments.

"if someone disagrees with you then you really wanna have more about you than to take it as a personal insult and lash out in the manner you have."

By the way, what does "wanna" mean, as a poor comprehensive reject I do not understand the word, I am sure that it was not a word taught at my school.

Oh dear oh dear, I am sarcastic about the way that the thread was becoming a Northampton love fest and people seem to struggle to handle that. I stated fair and honest opinions on a few players and passed no judgement over anyone on here. Then I get personally slated by people that seem to have the biggest chips on their shoulders. I have zero problem with Northampton but feel at present they have limited players that would be starters. I bleieve this will be the case when the first team is announced. By saying this I am made out that I did something I did not.

Back to the backline rubbish again, you are a Northampton fan and so you will like the backline. I am not saying they are terrible but in my eyes at this present time none are worthy of a place. Those that have caps are internationals but are they at the level required now?? I would say no, I do not believe they will get call ups. Foden on present form the only one maybe worthy of a place but Brown has that place nailed. With Goode and Watson covering I do not see him coming back. For the record I have always been a massive fan and feel if it wasn't for that long injury absence some years back then he would have been Englands 15 for some time. But the fact remains that the names you highlighted are all solid as you say but you can name a number better in each of their positions that are better. From various teams.

Finally to address the patronising remark you finish with, I am sure I will get criticised for replying to it. I do not believe that by having any level of education it was implied you would not use a slang or shortened term. I believe 'wanna' is in the Oxford dictionary but in fairness will probably say it should not be used for correct English. However as I am fairly sure you did know what it meant I need not press on this, however I will offer one piece of advice, you asked me a question (albeit in a facetious manner) in which case it is customary to complete it with a question mark (?). The weight of patronisation loses its power when in the midst of trying to undermine someone you undermine yourself.

Also really struggling to understand the ghostly remarks and also how I adhore Saracens. I assume people are unaware of my previous remarks on George and Goode.

You two still bickering?!?!

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Doc, for a Leicester fan being a grumpy old man/woman is normal, they are the Les Dawsons of supporters, always grumpy but funny with it. Saints fans are the Lenny Henrys of supporters, consistently amusing without achieving the heights of the grumpy old men, well over the past 30 years anyway.

Student, I am not sure your tongue reaches your cheek, you made comment about Saints supporters actually thinking that the Saints pack should all be picked, if that was TIC you need to lighten your tone. With regard to your comments on back play, Dickson, Myler, Burrell and Foden are all internationals ( I think Myler got a cap in Argentina) and have been part of the EPS for some time when not injured, that leaves Stephenson and Elliot. Stephenson is a junior international and widely tipped by more than just Saints fans to go further, Elliot is a throw back to when wingers were wingers, fast agile and skilful and will happily show Cipriani how to tackle a bus properly. He would not let England down although there are better choices. Your comments show an immaturity that has ghostly overtones, it is a pity you do not live and post by your own comments.

"if someone disagrees with you then you really wanna have more about you than to take it as a personal insult and lash out in the manner you have."

By the way, what does "wanna" mean, as a poor comprehensive reject I do not understand the word, I am sure that it was not a word taught at my school.

Mate, I like your assessment of Leicester and Northampton supporters. Funny stuff. The relationship we have with those who live north of the border up the A508 is unique. They are a good lot (but just don't tell them we think so).

Changing the subject to players from one team populating an International team, if memory serves (a questionable notion) Gatland's first Wales team had 13 Ospreys. So it's all in reflexes. It is pretty amazing how Saints could put out a credible and competitive English XV which would also not disappoint at the next level. I think Sarries could do so as well. Shows all is not doom & gloom in the Premiership. And for us as Saintly supporters, our halo glows the brighter.

for Sarries you could have
Mako
George
Du Plessis? (is he EQ?)
Kruis
Itoje
Wray
Fraser
Billy
Wigglesworth
Farrell
Ellery
Barritt
Tompkins
Ashton
Goode

11 or 12 of those would be considered first choice starters too, 10 of them are internationals, and Fraser may well become one sooner rather than later. A fair few of that team would be academy products: off the top of my head Vunipola x2, George, Itoje, Fraser, Farrell, Tompkins and Goode all came through the academy, maybe Kruis/Wray as well? Definitely progress since the "Saffacens" days.

Doc I don't think you can really compare what Gatland did with Wales. The ospreys were so much better than anyone else, plus Wales only have a few teams. The premiership is so much more competitive. I don't see anyway it will happen but if Jones went down that line it would be a mistake. I'd imagine fans from Bath, Quins, Northampton, saracens, wasps and Exeter would all have high hopes of supplying a large number of players. This should be embraced and will make the team stronger. Plus I don't believe either of any individual team has enough international quality, I think the lack of winners of the European cup is proof of this. We have the best and most competitive league and because of this players are distributed across a large amount of teams. Will be am interesting first squad.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:for Sarries you could have
Mako
George
Du Plessis? (is he EQ?)
Kruis
Itoje
Wray
Fraser
Billy
Wigglesworth
Farrell
Ellery
Barritt
Tompkins
Ashton
Goode

11 or 12 of those would be considered first choice starters too, 10 of them are internationals, and Fraser may well become one sooner rather than later. A fair few of that team would be academy products: off the top of my head Vunipola x2, George, Itoje, Fraser, Farrell, Tompkins and Goode all came through the academy, maybe Kruis/Wray as well? Definitely progress since the "Saffacens" days.

Du Plessis is EQ.

Billy came through the Wasps academy.

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:
However anyone who infers from my posts that I am a Grumpy Old Man would be correct.

I thought all Leicester fans were grumpy old men.  Including the women.  

Hard to tell the men and women apart when us men have bigger boobs and smaller beards

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:for Sarries you could have
Mako
George
Du Plessis? (is he EQ?)
Kruis
Itoje
Wray
Fraser
Billy
Wigglesworth
Farrell
Ellery
Barritt
Tompkins
Ashton
Goode

11 or 12 of those would be considered first choice starters too, 10 of them are internationals, and Fraser may well become one sooner rather than later. A fair few of that team would be academy products: off the top of my head Vunipola x2, George, Itoje, Fraser, Farrell, Tompkins and Goode all came through the academy, maybe Kruis/Wray as well? Definitely progress since the "Saffacens" days.

Du Plessis is EQ.

Billy came through the Wasps academy.

And Mako through the bristol academy

Student-A1 wrote:Doc I don't think you can really compare what Gatland did with Wales. The ospreys were so much better than anyone else, plus Wales only have a few teams. The premiership is so much more competitive. I don't see anyway it will happen but if Jones went down that line it would be a mistake. I'd imagine fans from Bath, Quins, Northampton, saracens, wasps and Exeter would all have high hopes of supplying a large number of players. This should be embraced and will make the team stronger. Plus I don't believe either of any individual team has enough international quality, I think the lack of winners of the European cup is proof of this. We have the best and most competitive league and because of this players are distributed across a large amount of teams. Will be am interesting first squad.

We're just joking around. Not taking the notion too seriously. But it is interesting to see the quality of entirely EQ teams which clubs could could put out.

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:
However anyone who infers from my posts that I am a Grumpy Old Man would be correct.

I thought all Leicester fans were grumpy old men.  Including the women.  

Hard to tell the men and women apart when us men have bigger boobs and smaller beards

More than a few Northampton women have kinky boots.

So, if I try an all-Quins team, it would probably look like this:

Marler
Ward
Collier/Sinckler
Twomey
Matthews
Robshaw
Clifford
Easter (or put Wallace at 7, Clifford at 8 and Easter at 4 or 20)
Care
Botica/Swiel
Chisholm/Walker
Sloan
Lowe
Yarde
Brown

The locks, Chisholm, Walker and Sloan are not ready yet, and neither Botica nor Swiel is totally convincing at 10.

The others have all played to at least Saxons or England XV level. All academy graduates except Ward, Easter, Care, Botica, Swiel and Yarde, too.

Balmain, Youngs, Cole, slater, Kitch, Croft, O'Connor, McCaffery, Youngs, Burns, Benjamin, Smith, Manu, Thompstone, Tait

Reps: Thacker, Pasquali, Brugnara, Williams, Crane, Harrison, Bell, Catchpole

All EQP - the two italian props as they have been with us since they were 16 so by residency. Obviousley most are not international quality (though some were once) but even then could well beat Italy in the 6Ns.

Rugby Fan wrote:

beshocked wrote:...Surely being England captain isn't just about their playing ability? It's about being a good role model and ambassador for English rugby...

Jones has all but been told that his primary responsibility is to get results. Given how much Lancaster has been eviscerated lately for his emphasis on culture, I can't see why Jones would care a damn about his captain being an ambassador for the game.

Emphasis on culture was a hollow statement not backed up with performances. We thought that England would be fitter,faster and stronger going into the RWC but they seemed to run out of puff vs Wales, too slow both in body and mind vs Australia.

I think Robshaw is a very good player but like anyone he needs to be utilised correctly. Yes he perhaps spent too much time doing commercials rather than focussing on the job at hand but England did not lose because of Robshaw's decision to kick for the corner in my opinion.

Japan kicked for the corner against SA and won the match. I don't blame Robshaw for being bold. It was the poor execution throughout the last 20 minutes as Wales clawed themselves back into the game and won.

Robshaw damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I personally think you can add dog to a team without sacrificing too much integrity.

I know there are those who feel that Hartley can just stroll into the 2 shirt. I feel like he shouldn't be let off that easily for his bans. Also I believe he needs to show some good form in the AP - it's all well and good saying let's hand the captaincy to him but it sends out a disrespectful message to his rivals. I wouldn't pick the captain till closer to the time either.

What's your ideal team including bench for the 6Ns opener then beshocked? Know you've picked a team you think Jones may go for; is that your preferred lineup?

I'd like to see

Mullan Hartley Cole
Kitchener Launchbury
Robshaw Fraser
Vunipola
Youngs Ford
WatsonTwelvetrees Joseph Nowell Brown.

Vunipola George Brookes/Thomas
Slater Itoje/Kvesic/Clifford (not decided) Simpson Cipriani Burrell

beshocked wrote:

I think Robshaw is a very good player but like anyone he needs to be utilised correctly. Yes he perhaps spent too much time doing commercials rather than focussing on the job at hand but England did not lose because of Robshaw's decision to kick for the corner in my opinion.

Japan kicked for the corner against SA and won the match. I don't blame Robshaw for being bold. It was the poor execution throughout the last 20 minutes as Wales clawed themselves back into the game and won.

Robshaw damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The two are not comparable. Japan had absolutely nothing to lose - nobody expected them to win that game obviously. They knew that they would be applauded even with the loss for almost beating a rugby superpower. They went for the jugular and it worked. That is the highlight of their entire RWC history and everyone was behind them.

England had everything to lose and we all know how that ended. They could have equalised against Wales and then focused all of their efforts on the Australian game. I think the decision to kick for the corner was extremely short sighted and very stupid. The kicker may not have succeeded but Owen Farrell is very good under pressure and I think he definitely could have got the kick. If he didn't then at least they picked the right option.

I don't care about Hartleys bans.

But he's often coasted through games and looked pretty uncommitted.

We all used to regularly slate him on here for not being physical enough, not carrying enough, not being prominent around the pitch. Missing out on the RWC was the best thing that could've happened to Hartley as his stock has soared now.

He's also been out for a long time with concussion, and isn't featuring in Saints must win game tonight. That leaves him very few games to get back to form and show he is fit.

George imo is in with a very good shout of playing this 6N's

no 7 & 1/2 very much depends on who is in form. Still early.

Going on current form:

1.Vunipola
2.George
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Itoje
6.Robshaw
7.Fraser
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Farrell
11.Nowell
12.Hill
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Goode

16.Marler
17.Youngs
18.Brookes
19.Kitchener
20.Ewers
21.Care
22.Ford
23.Burrell

At the moment Farrell seems to be in better form than Ford but Ford showed some much needed steel against Wasps so he could be a better option by the time the 6 nations comes around.

I am torn on Brown - I think he's got the physicality, has been consistent for England but think at times he lacks the decision making I believe a 15 needs.

I put in Goode because he's the form full back in the AP again, he hasn't found it easy at international level, was it Lancaster or is he just not good enough? Of course I know he lacks pace but every player lacks something in my opinion. Gives an additional playmaker to Farrell.

You'd probably need Goode in there with that midfield. Ewers but no Hartley? Presume Watson would be covering full back with joseph shuffling to wing? No Simpson, form 9 this year for me?

The big thing for me is ensuring that we keep on top of Scotland in the setpiece first and foremost. Is there enough strength there?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

beshocked wrote:

I think Robshaw is a very good player but like anyone he needs to be utilised correctly. Yes he perhaps spent too much time doing commercials rather than focussing on the job at hand but England did not lose because of Robshaw's decision to kick for the corner in my opinion.

Japan kicked for the corner against SA and won the match. I don't blame Robshaw for being bold. It was the poor execution throughout the last 20 minutes as Wales clawed themselves back into the game and won.

Robshaw damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The two are not comparable. Japan had absolutely nothing to lose - nobody expected them to win that game obviously. They knew that they would be applauded even with the loss for almost beating a rugby superpower. They went for the jugular and it worked. That is the highlight of their entire RWC history and everyone was behind them.

England had everything to lose and we all know how that ended. They could have equalised against Wales and then focused all of their efforts on the Australian game. I think the decision to kick for the corner was extremely short sighted and very stupid. The kicker may not have succeeded but Owen Farrell is very good under pressure and I think he definitely could have got the kick. If he didn't then at least they picked the right option.

You say Japan had nothing to lose. They had the game to lose.... Nobody expected them to win before the game but during surely you realised during the game there was an opportunity for the biggest win of their career.

If they had pluckily lost it would have been forgotten just as Georgia's plucky loss to Ireland in the past has been forgotten.

You don't play to draw you play to win. The difference is that Japan scored the try, England did not.

If the kick was to win then of course it would have been foolish to go for the corner but it was for a draw. If Farrell had missed the kick then the calls would have been - why didn't Robshaw kick for the corner?

Right option? Play for the draw and lose or play for the win and lose? Robshaw was damned either way - the only way out of it was a win.

Can't consider Hartley unless he has proved his form. (Same for Manu and Lawes, probably others too)

No idea where Ewers will be either on the injury front.

Very suspect of Goode. A great player whose skills don't seem to fit international rugby unless its a wet kicking game. Could of been a very interesting option at 10 but we have done that to death

I'd have:

Vunipola
George
Cole
Launchbury
Kruis
Robshaw
Kvesic
Vunipola
Youngs
Ford
May
Burrell
Joseph
Watson
Brown

Marler
Hartley
Brookes
Kitchener
Morgan
Care
Farrell
Nowell

I think Farrell has played his best rugby alongside Care, and Ford his best alongside Youngs, so would want to keep those two combos. Not much in it for who starts and who benches.

Kruis has really impressed me this season, seems to do everything well. I think Itoje will be the better lock in the near-ish future, and he's close to making the squad, but Kruis is the better player right now IMO.

Gone with Burrell at IC with no great conviction, but do think his partnership with Joseph was promising at times last year, just needs to cut out some silly mistakes. Baritt has been doing well for Sarries, but even at his best at international level he struggled to generate much go-forward IMO. Hill another option.

The pack has a Sarries spine, which I'm perfectly happy with, as they've been the form team in the AP, even in Europe, this year so far.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You'd probably need Goode in there with that midfield. Ewers but no Hartley? Presume Watson would be covering full back with joseph shuffling to wing? No Simpson, form 9 this year for me?

The big thing for me is ensuring that we keep on top of Scotland in the setpiece first and foremost. Is there enough strength there?

Well personally I wasn't impressed by Simpson against Bath. I feel like his decision making isn't good enough, quick of feet but not of the mind.

Ewers is a heavy duty carrier. Hartley is not in form. He's not playing at the moment, has to play himself into the 23.

Yes Watson would be covering full back.

I think the setpiece is strong enough yes but it's a pack based on workrate,power and the breakdown.

You have players who can link well with the backs. The Vunipola bros working in tandem to punch holes.

But Simpson of the last 18 months?

Ewers is struggling for the 6Ns isn't he?

Happy to swap Joseph to wing then?

We would be strong at the breakdown but I'd worry vunipola starting against Nel and the lineout against the Greys.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

We would be strong at the breakdown but I'd worry vunipola starting against Nel and the lineout against the Greys.

Agreed

Vuinipola just isn't a good scrummager at the top level, he can't start.

I'm of a similar thinking on Simpson though, I just can't get past how bad his pass and game management are.

My team

Marler, Hartley, Cole
Launchbury, Kruis/Kitchener
Robshaw, Kvesic, Vunipola
Youngs, Ford
???, Joseph
May. Brown, Watson

Vunipola, George, Brookes, Attwood/Kitchener, Itoje, Care, Farrell, Nowell

At the moment Burrell is the 12 by default for me, but I'm desperately hoping someone overtakes him.

I'd go for the strongest scrummagers starting (would consider Mullan too), with a solid lineout thrower and jumper.

On the bench I'd look to have power throughout the forwards, Kruis is either a starter or not in the squad for me. Robshaw covers 7, and we'll just be hoping Billy doesnt get injured

In the backs, I agree that Ford/Youngs and Care/Farrell are the combos, but would look to get Simpson some game time too. Farrell is playing far better than Cips at the moment for my money, and also (badly) covers 12 in emergencies

Nowell is the best bench option to cover 13, wing and FB with Watson

He's got a better pass than Youngs and has generally looked good and in control for Wasps though. Think those things may well have been true some time ago but he's really come on.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's got a better pass than Youngs and has generally looked good and in control for Wasps though. Think those things may well have been true some time ago but he's really come on.

I think we've done this before.....I can't agree with any of that anyway.

Mako hasn't struggled vs Nel in the past I am sure he would be fine, especially if partnered with George and Cole. A scrum battle is more than just one player.

With Borthwick in charge of the lineout, I am confident will do his homework. The Grays might be tall but Scotland failed to win the most important lineout vs Australia....

Sarries' set piece has been strong this season, it's not been hitting the same headlines as the Saints one but that's because Sarries pack is more all round.

It depends what you want from a pack - I want a pack based on workrate,power and good basics.

Like the look of BamBam's team, although on form I don't really understand why Cole is everyone's pick.

"Sarries' set piece has been strong this season, it's not been hitting the same headlines as the Saints one but that's because Sarries pack is more all round."

And how many penalties did Mako give away against the Saints scrum? Was it every scrum?

scottrf lack of alternate options.

Don't know but did Saints scrum win you the match? No it didn't.... got to have more than a scrum to win most games, sadly Saints haven't learnt that lesson yet. 6-12 - 4 penalties to 2.

It was Mako,Brits,Du Plessis not George anyway.