Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

So the worst kept secret is out...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12005671/Eddie-Jones-to-be-confirmed-as-England-head-coach-in-next-24-hours.html

Jury's out on this one, will have to see how the 6Ns goes then ponder his selection.

Only an idiot wouldn't cap hughes.

LondonTiger wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Still surprised by the omission of Daly.

I know if he was there then that'd make two uncapped players on the bench. But ignore his attacking skills and pace.

Just for his 60m boot and surprising accuracy, I'd have thought they'd want him there.

Frankly, I would feel more confident with Daly taking the kicks at goal instead of Ford.  

Is that perception getting in the way of reality though?

Maybe.  

I know I am in a distinct minority, but I am not convinced about Ford.  Forget the pygmy comments.  I don't see him as a better attacking threat than Cipriani, for instance, and I don't see him as good a kicker as Farrell, both for points and territory.  And Farrell can actually play defense.  If England don't get front foot ball, I see Ford as a liability whereas Farrell could at least do some basics and function.  If England do have front foot ball, I am not sure what Ford brings which other options (beyond Farrell, of course) do not.  Ultimately, I think it was a mistake for him to go to Bath.  At Leicester he could have learned within a solid system instead of being given the keys to daddy's car and told to go run it without having learned to drive it the right way.   Maybe that's part of his problem this season.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 it's only a close game because of poor selections. I said good selections would have seen it be 70-30.

France are still France, always been stronger than Scotland. Better head to head vs England. Have a much better win record in the 6 nations

Bambam above Scotland though....

Poorfour would have two new starters - new backrower, George with Itoje on the bench.

But this isn't about head to heads is it? Earlier you were basing a lot on the WC weren't you? I'd say that Scotland were starting to look pretty good, especially against Aus, that's to be ignored now? I'd also favour Scotland to be better than France over the course of this 6Ns. Who would you have had at 12 Barritt? Personally I think if you think a player is good enough and a better fit than a more experienced player generally go with it. I don't think it would be especially smart to go with shed loads of new caps even from the bench as they could all be needed to come on after 1 minute.

I should have really mentioned France's head to head vs Scotland.

You only don't like the head to heads because you don't like the evidence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_France_and_Scotland

From 2000 onwards Scotland have only beaten France once.

Summary - France are stronger than Scotland until proven otherwise.

Don't get me wrong a weaker side can beat a stronger side but Scotland beating France has been rare in recent memory. Perhaps this year - Scotland, the dark horses of the tournament cause some havoc.

Basing a lot on the WC? Yes and No. England's performance wasn't good but then again the other NH didn't do much better. You are hyping up Scotland based on their narrow loss to Australia. Shouldn't be ignored no but Scotland need to back it up. Last time they were in the 6 nations they won the wooden spoon.

Barritt isn't ideal no, better than Farrell at 12 yes, better than Devoto who has done very little of note yes.

My first choice would have been to try out Slade, 2nd Manu but both are injured. So yes as a stop gap, Barritt even though it wouldn't have been ideal.

I don't mind the evidence but it's extremely limited in judging this Scottish teams relative strength against this England team against that of France and England 2 years ago.

You do tend to use things to support your claims but then not follow them through. England need a clear out etc due to WC but we can't see Scotland as a threat purely on the WC.

Can't give youngsters a chance except when they are youngsters you want to see given a chance.

Perhaps Haskell and Lawes are seen as a stop gap by Jones?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't mind the evidence but it's extremely limited in judging this Scottish teams relative strength against this England team against that of France and England 2 years ago.

You do tend to use things to support your claims but then not follow them through. England need a clear out  etc due to WC but we can't see Scotland as a threat purely on the WC.

Can't give youngsters a chance except when they are youngsters you want to see given a chance.

Perhaps Haskell and Lawes are seen as a stop gap by Jones?

It's my opinion that England will score at least one try from a lineout and rolling maul. Lawes I feel is probably a more useful lineout option than Itoje. His inclusion is not as baffling as Haskell's.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't mind the evidence but it's extremely limited in judging this Scottish teams relative strength against this England team against that of France and England 2 years ago.

You do tend to use things to support your claims but then not follow them through. England need a clear out  etc due to WC but we can't see Scotland as a threat purely on the WC.

Can't give youngsters a chance except when they are youngsters you want to see given a chance.

Perhaps Haskell and Lawes are seen as a stop gap by Jones?

I would think Scotland are a huge threat because they did out perform us in the RWC. Yes, we know Lancaster de-powered the pack and made other bad decisions. But Scotland came within an inch of beating Australia who had just cleaned our clocks.

Scotland have been poor for almost 15 years. They need to improve, and are improving. Which is good for all of us. So, I think this could go any number of ways. Hopefully England sneaks it, but I can't predict one way or the other. Would also be nice to see Scotland really make a push.

no 7 & 1/2 Limited? No not really it shows a general trend.

France win,Scotland lose. Same as the England vs Scotland trend....

We should take Scotland moderately seriously but not too seriously.

Scotland are going to be a tougher proposition than they should be. Eddie Jones has made it tougher than it needs to be by making some poor decisions.

I personally think France away is a tougher proposition than Scotland away yes. Previous games show that too.

Perhaps Scotland will buck the trend, certainly there's enough confidence.

ruggerradge2611 is Lawes fully fit though?

"We should take Scotland moderately seriously but not too seriously."

I really don't know what to say to that.

What poor decisions have been made? We've not even played the game yet.

Ok beshocked what can we learn from the Scottish team of 2000 which we can implement on Saturday? By answering that you should see how that historical wins are limited when judging this area. I think this Scottish team are capable of beating us I don't think they will, much as I thought we could have been beaten France 2 years ago.

Just goes back to you thinking any choice which you wouldn't make being a mistake and then ignoring the reasons you yourself have given when the choes on the other foot.

I think the best example of your thoughts on the strength of Scotland and France take me to Man U. We could still see them as unbeatable if we took your view however they ain't as good as under Fergie.

Sgt Pooly I've been over it. Never mind.

No 7 & 1/2 I didn't say we could learn from the Scottish team of 2000. I am saying that generally France > Scotland. That might well change this year. Generally England > Scotland, again that might change.

Just because I think something is a mistake doesn't mean it will be but many times it has been.

Perhaps I will be eating humble pie, perhaps Farrell,Haskell and Hartley will have stormers.

Then you can say - told you they would be brilliant.

Nobody has said they were going to brilliant but their selection makes sense. You have some really one eyed views sometimes Beshocked.

Scotland are a bloody good team and I'd be over the moon if we turned them over.

Right so we agree that historical trends/wins/losses can't really tell us the strength of the current England Scotland team and those of France England 2 years ago. But you think that England are either weaker now or that France team was stronger than Scotland. And we can risk newbies here and not then.

Just so we can confirm I never said any would be brilliant, just find it a bit hypocritical that you criticised decisions so much but then are happy to reverse those thoughts. The starting pack is proven, as you've said the others aren't at international level.

Nowell and May were ready for a chance then; George Itoje et al are ready now.

France away isn't the same as Scotland away. Even if you disagree. You're wrong.

Don't know what you mean by newbies anyway. It wouldn't have been George's first cap for England. I only wanted Itoje on the bench.

Nowell and May weren't ready for that match. May has been poor for England in general, wouldn't say he's ever been truly ready! He's been picked because of his world class training. Nowell's best performances were in the 2015 6 nations but was dumped by Lancaster.

As for George and Itoje - I think they are ready, doesn't mean I am right. I am not right all the time - I will admit that.

Well they're in different countries. You mean to say that the Current England team is the same quality as the one 2 years ago but the current Scotland team is worse than the French 2 years ago?

Newbies, people new to the team. George has so far played a 40 minuite warm up and Uruguay, he's new and unproven. Anyone picked on the bench could be called to play 8o min plus, have to take that into account.

Nowell and May were ready and have proved to be good enough. You still don't get the training comment huh? I've got to ask what you don't understand about that comment as I thought it was pretty easy to get? Please don't make stuff up when dancing around that!

It's much easier to start a debutant on the wing than it is in the pack. George has never started an away game and Itoje is down the pecking order and rightly so.

The only real debate is Haskell and he has bags of experience and is having a fantastic season. You have to trust the coach's calls at some point, especially in Jones case as he very few preconceived thoughts on players. He's obviously looked at the players and thought this is his best side for this game.

You seem to argue for the sake or arguing sometimes.

Thing is that selection is not black and white. Selecting Itojet in the matchday squad woudl not be wrong, but equally leaving him out is not wrong either. We have four second row forwards heading up to Scotland, 3 are in the matchday squad and one is damned close. None of those players are old with Lawes at 26 the senior but still as a forward pretty young. He is now an experienced player who has had some exceptional performances in the past for England. When your bench forwards include 3 (of 5) with a grand total of about 100 minutes of international rugby between them, it surely makes sense to ensure there is at least some experience?

Itoje's time will come, maybe next week, but he is not being harmed by:

a) Having a week off
b) spending time around the squad on a matchday in hostile surroundings.

As for Nowell and May. Nowell has generally been very good. May has generally been average but has done some very good things. Its just the one try he scored vs NZ and its only one moment but the way he did it will always focus the minds of the opposition. But all that has been done to death and is academic anyway.

I am pleased to see Danny Care starting and Ben youg's on the bench.

However i am not so happy with Farrell at 12. I like the idea of George Ford at 10. But Farrell is not a centre he is a fly half. I do not like the idea of playing players out of position. I guess i can see the point of having a second kicker on to relieve the pressure off the Fly half.

I hope it works for Eddie Jones this week end. England trying to retain the calcutta cup with Scotland probably at their strongest they have been for some time.

It will be a tough game.

Given the massive differential in the amount of information that they have relative to us, it astonishes me that people are prepared to judge "bad decisions" before a game has been played.

You can only really judge a coach on a series of games. Eddie has done what I expected him to, you can see why he's done it, you can question whether there might have been better options

beshocked, your opinion would count for more if it weren't so focused on repeated, unsupported assertions that certain players aren't or weren't ready to be introduced, and other players are ready and must be introduced right now this minute or it's a huge mistake.

majesticimperialman wrote:I am pleased to see Danny Care starting and Ben youg's on the bench.

However i am not so happy with Farrell at 12. I like the idea of George Ford at 10. But Farrell is not a centre he is a fly half. I do not like the idea of playing players out of position. I guess i can see the point of having a second kicker on  to relieve the pressure off the Fly half.

I hope it works for Eddie Jones this week end. England trying to retain the calcutta cup with Scotland probably at their strongest they have  been for some time.

It will be a tough game.

I haven't seen much of Danny Care this year, is he in form? Being a tigers fan I've seen a lot of b. Youngs and thought he was back to playing some of his best rugby. But with care picked ahead, perhaps I'm wrong.

I also wonder if Jones will use his subs like Lancaster did and make wholesale subs at 60 minutes

Chatting to Eddie today and he assured me on a few concerns i had with the selectors, but he again come across like no other coach i have worked with. The guy makes Graham Henry look amateur the gulf in class is like comparing Sir Clive to Frank Hadden.
Care looked well up for it.

DirtyRucker7 wrote:Chatting to Eddie today and he assured me on a few concerns i had with the selectors, but he again come across like no other coach i have worked with. The guy makes Graham Henry look amateur the gulf in class is like comparing Sir Clive to Frank Hadden.
Care looked well up for it.

Reminds me of someone.......

nathan wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I am pleased to see Danny Care starting and Ben youg's on the bench.

However i am not so happy with Farrell at 12. I like the idea of George Ford at 10. But Farrell is not a centre he is a fly half. I do not like the idea of playing players out of position. I guess i can see the point of having a second kicker on  to relieve the pressure off the Fly half.

I hope it works for Eddie Jones this week end. England trying to retain the calcutta cup with Scotland probably at their strongest they have  been for some time.

It will be a tough game.

I haven't seen much of Danny Care this year, is he in form? Being a tigers fan I've seen a lot of b. Youngs and thought he was back to playing some of his best rugby. But with care picked ahead, perhaps I'm wrong.

I cannot relay answer yuor question about Dann Care being in form or not. because like your self i have not seen much of him. he odds games i have seen him play he played well.

But i just think that B youngs was getting maybe a touch complacent. thinking he was undroppable.

I don't think it is a good thing too keep playing the same players every game when there are better players on the bench. especially when the regular player is not playing his best.

Ben youngs is currently, imo, in the best form of his career. For Care to be selected he must be in excellent form too, which is good.

Not sure how anyone who watched England last year can say Youngs was complacent. He was outstanding in the 6 nations and was guiding us to victory over Wales until his ankle was stamped on, forcing him off. Lancaster, incorrectly deemed an unfit Youngs to be the man to trust against Australia - he was wrong as Lenny limped from one set-piece/breakdown to another.

Care is in decent form, too. I think he's been selected because he's more unpredictable and will run things at a higher tempo. Eddie is clearly prepared to accept the odd mistake in exchange for the odd moment of genius. I also think there's an element that Care will create more for Farrell to play off in a two-sided attack.

for me I think youngs has that unpredictable asset to his game - hence all the tries he's setup or score this season.

For me, I just think care is a lesser version of youngs in each department.

Then again it's great to have both in form

I think Youngs is better, but then again I would. I can understand the logic in selecting Care to start, and as with other positions it can be argued from either side.

Yeah I agree with that LT

I don't think Youngs is the form of his life by a long shot. He was fantastic when he burst on the scene, I remember him having some great games against the Aussies. His passing is still a bit hit and miss but he's looked to making some more breaks this season, he had a great game against Ulster earlier in the season.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think Youngs is the form of his life by a long shot. He was fantastic when he burst on the scene, I remember him having some great games against the Aussies. His passing is still a bit hit and miss but he's looked to making some more breaks this season, he had a great game against Ulster earlier in the season.

Couldn't disagree with you anymore, since tigers have changed style of play its suited his style even more. His passing has improved but still throws the odd one a bit to high. He hasn't looked to make more breaks this season, he has made more breaks this season.

You've just pretty much agreed with me despite not agreeing?!?!

I said his passing was still hit and miss but he's making more breaks?!?! His passing has never been a major strength and never will but he thrives when he attacks the fringes and looks for gaps.

I'm a big fan, I honestly thought he'd be world class when he burst in the scene. Things haven't really went to plan but he's getting back this season.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You've just pretty much agreed with me despite not agreeing?!?!

I said his passing was still hit and miss but he's making more breaks?!?! His passing has never been a major strength and never will but he thrives when he attacks the fringes and looks for gaps.

I'm a big fan, I honestly thought he'd be world class when he burst in the scene. Things haven't really went to plan but he's getting back this season.

You said he's looking to make more breaks, I said he is actually making the breaks. I think he's worked in his passing game and he now throws the odd dodgy one - not hit and miss as you said.

But each to their own, I'm just happy to see both are in form. I suspect Care will start a few games and then by the end of the six nations b. Youngs will be the starter - it seems to happened a few times in the past.

Looking to make more breaks pretty much means he's making more breaks. Seems like you're being a little pedantic when we're pretty much on the same page.

Don't let my utter disdain for his brother make you think I'm having a pop at Ben. I'm a big big fan, I'd take him every time over Care who's box kicking really lets him down at the top level.

Didn't think I'm being pedantic, to me what you said is attempting and what I said is he's doing it - understand what you mean now,

Utter disdain, lol your starting to sound like beshocked!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think Youngs is the form of his life by a long shot. He was fantastic when he burst on the scene, I remember him having some great games against the Aussies. His passing is still a bit hit and miss but he's looked to making some more breaks this season, he had a great game against Ulster earlier in the season.

His passing is better than it has ever been this season. You are entitled to disagree, but I have not seen Youngs play better for Leicester than he has this season.

Oh and we have not played Ulster.

Haha...take that back Nathan!

I meant Munster, just so used to you playing Ulster every season.

Saying it's better than it's ever been is nothing spectacular in Young's case, it's never been a strength. Luckily he's strong in other areas which make his passing less of an issue.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Haha...take that back Nathan!

I meant Munster, just so used to you playing Ulster every season.

Saying it's better than it's ever been is nothing spectacular in Young's case, it's never been a strength. Luckily he's strong in other areas which make his passing less of an issue.

Ulster, Munster, Leinster, Leicester. All kind of the same. Does get confusing.............

In the matches I have seen Youngs play this season, I thought he looked quite good. I haven't seen Care play that much, probably because Quins aren't on tv here as much as Tigers.

One observation, which likely means not a hell of a lot, is that I haven't seen much good scrum half play this season from most teams I have watched. Passes seem slower and rather mindless, a lot more simply feeding forwards in an endless stream of up the jumper or slow off target passes to some back. Maybe it's me, but the standard seems lower overall.

The bottom line for all the negative comments about England is:

Whilst I don't see Jones as the Mesiah or anything, I do seem him as a very good international head coach. He's not stupid. He is an aussie, and they generally have a good grasp of the breakdown...and he's also got the opinion of George Smith, who himself knows a bit as well.

He will have a very strict plan for this game, and he will know that a few of these players are under pressure to really bring out some performances this 6n due to the WC fiasco.

That's motivation if your Robshaw, Cole, Marler etc etc

We'll be good tomorrow I'm sure of it. Jones will realise he's got a great chance to cement his place as one of the best coaches around, he has some fantastic players in a well set squad. He really doesn't have to make wholesale changes just a few tweaks to get us over the line.

Why would EJ chuck in Itoje and Daly into his first game in charge against a very good Scotland side along side 3 new caps forced by injury?

He's already said he wants both players to be 60 cap test players and he understands better than anyone on this board the importance of strategy when blooding new caps, he's renowned for identifying and developing world class talent.

Have a bit of patience.

^^ who's this guy??? Do you not understand that Beshocked knows a lot more than Jones?

As a Scotland fan I fear Care much more than Youngs

No 7&1/2 wrote:We'll be good tomorrow I'm sure of it. Jones will realise he's got a great chance to cement his place as one of the best coaches around, he has some fantastic players in a well set squad. He really doesn't have to make wholesale changes just a few tweaks to get us over the line.

This.

He has taken over at a very good time. And after the RWC expectations are understandably low

Haskell man of the match...

doctor_grey wrote:In the matches I have seen Youngs play this season, I thought he looked quite good.  I haven't seen Care play that much, probably because Quins aren't on tv here as much as Tigers.  

One observation, which likely means not a hell of a lot, is that I haven't seen much good scrum half play this season from most teams I have watched.  Passes seem slower and rather mindless, a lot more simply feeding forwards in an endless stream of up the jumper or slow off target passes to some back.  Maybe it's me, but the standard seems lower overall.

That's been the case with scrum half play in the prem for quite some time now doc.

The general assumption with most scrum halfs these days is that if they are very quick and good on the break then they must have a poor passing and kicking game. Whereas if they are slower and less dangerous sniping then they must have a great pass and box kick. Neither assumption is usually true.

It's often assumed for instance that Wigglesworth has an excellent pass which isn't the case, I'd put him on par with Care and behind Youngs in that facet alone. Similarly it was assumed Dickson must have a fantastic box kick because he was viewed as a 'controlling 9', again I thought this was false though. His pass was strong and he read the game well but I usually felt his kicking was far too long, exactly the same as Care and Youngs as well there.

The two in the match day squad are our best 9s by a distance though. I'd have started Youngs as I think he's playing better currently. If Jones is wanting to get a pack full of carriers running of his scrum half (and blind side wingers being brought into play more) then Youngs and Care are fantastic players to build that game plan around.

Londontiger to be honest I think he might be frustated he's unable to help his club in a very tough away game as he's seen as surplus to requirements for England.

Of course I find it frustating too. I wanted England to either pick him or let him play for his club, not leave him in a situation where he's doing neither.

I am sure if a Tigers player was put in that situation, let's say they would miss a game vs Saints because they needed to hold a tackle bag, you wouldn't be happy.

Poorfour you say unsupported assertions... I would say I have given plenty of evidence. If you disagree with the evidence that has been put in front of you then that's your problem not mine.

it's about trying to predict something before it happens. I am not always right but if something is going to go wrong it's going to more likely be the places highlighted. Not just by me I should add.

Coaches do not get everything right. If they did then why do mistakes bite them in the backside?

Just one poor selection can make a difference.

emontagu a very good Scotland? 9th in the world, current holders of the wooden spoon, can't hype every team up.

Agree doctor grey.

Been a bit disappointed with the passing in general of 9s.

Agree king carlos Wigglesworth his passing and overall service hasn't been great. Does still have the best box kick though in my opinion.

Care and Youngs are the two clear best 9s.

Sgt Pooly it's not easier to start a debut on the wing...because team X might well brutally expose the lack of communication and score two early tries making it an uphill battle....

Look I get it, you don't rate Itoje, as I have said to you many times, he cannot prove himself at international level till he's picked. He's proved you wrong many times at club level, perhaps he'll do so at international level too.

lostinwales you are entitled to your opinion on May, personally I think he's still one of the most overrated players in England. This is because his performances have not backed up the following he has.

On the subject of Youngs and Care I think both would be good starters so not disappointed.

You do tend to ignore the poor form of Ashton for England when considering mistakes though. It's not as if he didn't make plenty himself and appear anonymous for a good while.

beshocked, so you would rather that Eddie didn't take travelling reserves (which, by the way, all teams do)? Or that those travelling reserves weren't the best available players?

As it happens, since Lawes isn't deemed ready to start, the advantage of Hartley having his regular lineout caller goes away, and on that basis the case for having Itoje on the bench gets stronger. But then only one of Launchbury, Itoje and Kruis regularly calls the lineout, so a knock to Kruis (which we've seen happen) and you've got an inexperienced caller going against the Gray brothers.

(By the way, repeatedly insisting that France away is different from Scotland away or that Nowell wasn't ready doesn't actually constitute evidence or even reasoned argument. A lot of the time you just seem to restate what you've said before without explaining things further)