Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

So the worst kept secret is out...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12005671/Eddie-Jones-to-be-confirmed-as-England-head-coach-in-next-24-hours.html

Jury's out on this one, will have to see how the 6Ns goes then ponder his selection.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

beshocked wrote:Higher level is always the best way to test someone in my opinion. It's not as if Borthwick is going to be doing the job on his own. He'll have the experienced Eddie Jones as his mentor and in all likelihood Gustard to assist too.

It's that terminology that bothers me. You wouldn't have described Clive Woodward as "mentoring" Robinson, Larder et al, and you wouldn't describe Henry as mentoring Smith and Hansen.

I don't think England should be appointing a coach requiring "mentoring".

It's mentoring for the top job, not the coaching position they have been hired for.

Really?? I can't imagine Borthwick being a serious contender for the top job until he's actually proven himself as a head coach. No amount of being forwards coach for England will prepare him for the Head coaching role. You need to be a head coach for that, in my opinion.

YoufunnyExiledScot wrote:Really?? I can't imagine Borthwick being a serious contender for the top job until he's actually proven himself as a head coach. No amount of being forwards coach for England will prepare him for the Head coaching role. You need to be a head coach for that, in my opinion.

Well one of Jones tasks is to train and hand over to an English successor, I presume that will be one of his own coaches

LondonTiger wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:If Bristol are going to be awkward they have to hope they get promoted this year. If as it seems likely the AP and RFU are going to agree a extension to fourteen teams and no promotion they could find themselves not in the top twelve and with no friends when it comes to choosing the other two.

They are being awkward because:

1) RFU approached one of their employees without talking to the club (they asked permission from Sarries to talk to Gustard)
2) RFU are hoping, after forking out over £1m to Farrell, Rowntree & Catt in settlement, to avoid paying up the full value of Borthwick's contract.

RFU are treating them very poorly imo.

I do not know about point 1. Nor I suspect do you.

Re point 2 as someone who worked in HR I can tell you your post makes no sense. Farrell, Rowntree and Catt are entitled to a year's salary because that is what their contract says and it is what they are losing. If Borthwick leaves Bristol are not losing anything financially. Their loss is the value of his services less the salary they will save if he leaves. Unless you think they are paying him half of his value this cannot be the same as his salary.

Eddie Jones hasn't previously been much of a mentor to his assistants. Actually, few coaches are, so that doesn't really count as a strike against him in my book. I know that's one of the briefs the RFU say they have given him, but I don't think it was sensible to do so. I doubt Jones plans to change the way he operates to make that a priority.

David Flatman said recently that Borthwick always acted like a coach when he was a player, which suggests decent raw material. Personally, I'd much rather we had a forwards coach with some heftier experience because Jones has a very mixed record in that regard. However, if he's comfortable with the guys he is choosing, then that's preferable to imposing someone on him.

Exiledinborders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:If Bristol are going to be awkward they have to hope they get promoted this year. If as it seems likely the AP and RFU are going to agree a extension to fourteen teams and no promotion they could find themselves not in the top twelve and with no friends when it comes to choosing the other two.

They are being awkward because:

1) RFU approached one of their employees without talking to the club (they asked permission from Sarries to talk to Gustard)
2) RFU are hoping, after forking out over £1m to Farrell, Rowntree & Catt in settlement, to avoid paying up the full value of Borthwick's contract.

RFU are treating them very poorly imo.

I do not know about point 1. Nor I suspect do you.

Re point 2 as someone who worked in HR I can tell you your post makes no sense. Farrell, Rowntree and Catt are entitled to a year's salary because that is what their contract says and it is what they are losing.  If Borthwick leaves Bristol are not losing anything financially. Their loss is the value of his services less the salary they will save if he leaves. Unless you think they are paying him half of his value this cannot be the same as his salary.

Actually number 2 was the guesswork, based on the fact that that RFU paid compensation to release Jones from Stormers, Farrell from Sarries etc, etc. Working in HR you will know that everyone has certain clauses in their employment contracts when it comes to leaving that employment. those on "standard" contracts have to give notice if they wish to leave and can be held to the notice period. Those on fixed term contracts can differ though. Sports teams as a norm indicate that to secure release early there is an amount to be paid - this can always be negotiated and is why we have transfer fees.

Number 1 is on public record.

Number 2 is no longer guesswork.

In Times today (and I guess other papers) it is stated that negotiations as to how much compensation RFU would pay to release Borthwick from his contract immediately were still taking place when RFU announced his recruitment. It does suggest that Bristol were demanding quite a lot, peeved that the first they were told (officially) of the recruitment was when Borthwick went to seek release.

However it also sounds like they will be prepared to keep Borthwick away from England for the full notice period and get no payment than accept what they may view as an insulting offer.

Effectively they are angry with RFUs disdain for common courtesy and cheapskate attitude.

I feel sorry for Borthwick as he seems, in general, to be a decent fella and he will be the loser in all this - especially as one of the terms agreed was that borthwick would have returned to Bristol after the 6Ns to gain more hands on experience.

Londontiger I agree, he is not that experienced but I will give him the benefit of the doubt for now. Of course you make valid points, we'll see.

I'll be honest I don't know the ins and outs of what exactly Rowntree was doing with England but I know he was taken on as a relative novice.



Sadly again we are missing details.

How much are RFU offering in compensation? How much did they give to Stormers, how much would they need to give to Saracens?

It's hard to know who is in the wrong without all the details. It does seem odd that RFU could get agreement off Stormers and potentially Saracens but fail to strike a deal with Bristol.

I am no fan of the RFU, I think they act in an unprofessional manner with no real structure or thought on strategy but perhaps in this Bristol/RFU battle it's not the RFU completely at fault.

Quite clearly the compensation discussion is something that Bristol/RFU do not see eye to eye on. What would you call reasonable? What's the figure on the table?

Jones had a release clause in his contract.

Who knows about Borthwick's contract. However, Bristol is being at least a little disingenuous because the rumours about Borthwick and the stories in the media about Borthwick started quite some time ago. They knew this was coming.

doctor_grey wrote:Who knows about Borthwick's contract.  However, Bristol is being at least a little disingenuous because the rumours about Borthwick and the stories in the media about Borthwick started quite some time ago.  They knew this was coming.  

Of course they did. Still does not excuse high handed behaviour and potential bullying from the RFU.


I am not a fan of Bristol and their new business model, I think they are probably being dickish - but who here has not been so incensed by someone else's actions that they have reacted with pique.

Oh and as to Rowntree and Borthwicks experience (and this is no comment on their ability) - Rowntree had been coach at Leicester for one year when appointed Scrum coach for England. Scrum coach for 3 years with England (including a WC) and one Lions tour when appointed interim forwards coach, and did that for one 6Ns before being appointed Forwards coach - the job Borthwick has been offered.

Jones obviously rates Borthwick as he has also made him his deputy - but merely in terms of experience two summers as an intern plus 6 months as lineout coach (yes including a WC) does not stack up.

Borthwick is the most inexperienced person ever to be forwards coach - hopefully he will also in time be viewed as the best. (John Mitchell and Andy robinson were stunningly good as forwards coaches).

Londontiger fair enough. I can understand your apprehension over Borthwick and by your definition he is inexperienced yes. He does lack day to day experience and has a lack of full time coaching.

I am not claiming that Borthwick is experienced in every coaching facet but you have to factor in that international experience is different to club experience. Borthwick might have less hands on day to day club experience but he's worked with the Japanese team in an environment which will be more similar to that he'll have with England. I personally think that should count in his favour.

Internationals coaches do not have a whole year of interaction with players, they get a limited amount of time.

I also believe you cannot label him as forwards coach in isolation, I expect if Gustard is brought in then both will work together. At Saracens - Sanderson and Gustard work together on everything - the set piece, breakdown,defence etc.

I think its a good call myself. Jones has got his pick of two key men.

So Borthwick, Gustard, King?

It does beg the question of whether we should go for Sanderson as well or even have kept Farrell?

No 7&1/2 wrote:It does beg the question of whether we should go for Sanderson as well or even have kept Farrell?

Adding Sanderson would leave us with too many opinions on the forwards. Keeping Farrell would create a different problem as he was de facto Head Coach with Lancaster effectively as DoR. The description of Borthwicks role in the press today indicates he will be in charge of training sessions.

Anyway Farrell was poopie

Just looking at it from the point we want to recreate Saracens domestic defence and forward power, hopefully with a bit of added stardust, but we keep looking at 1 coach when it seems very intergrated. Are we making a mistake?

Yes indeed Farrell is a very poor coach.

Saracens said they would not accept losing both Sanderson and Gustard.

RFU should make a deal with Bristol -Bristol can have Rowntree and Farrell - two for the price of 1 though I am not sure that Bristol would want either.

Would Saracens have any real choice if they came calling for both? Farrell was pretty highly rated when we got him and his stock has fallen, is it Gustard making them look good or the combo or McCall etc?

When Farrell was appointed, certain posters were telling us how amazing he was

He certainly is not as poor as current opinion and withing rugby has a decent reputation still as a defensive co-ordinator. Catt will be the coach who finds it hardest to get work as he had no form at all as a coach before England.

And a touch unprofessional by the sounds of it.

Yes of course, they could tell England to ^&% off as the coaches are contracted. I think taking both is unreasonable.

Farrell was overrated in the first place IMO. You can see that when he left Saracens there was no real long term damage to the team, the club has improved in Farrell's absence, becoming less one dimensional and more free flowing in attack.

To be honest I don't know what Farrell contributed.I guess you could say in Farrell's case I have the benefit of hindsight.

Kevin Sorrell - hardly a well known coach has surpassed Farrell with ease in terms of attack coach.

I think the structure in place at Saracens in terms of coaches is good. They've gone through phases of changes - Brendan as DOR then Mccall replacing him, Farrell leaving and Sorrell coming in - they have dealt with it so far.

England are coming back to raid Saracens because they know they picked the wrong coach.

Just Farrell being the odd man out in terms of quality or overstepping the mark in his responsibilities then.

Big rumours of Farrell going back to Saracens.

LondonTiger wrote:When Farrell was appointed, certain posters were telling us how amazing he was

He certainly is not as poor as current opinion and, within rugby, has a decent reputation still as a defensive co-ordinator.

I agree. Both Rowntree and Farrell came off the Lions tour with solid reputations, so it's not cut and dried.

The problem is that any manager or coach needs to wield a bit of authority and that can be easily undermined if the court of public opinion regards you as a busted flush. That's especially true of Farrell, since one of his USPs was the ability to inspire confidence. They basically have to go away and re-establish themselves.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Big rumours of Farrell going back to Saracens.

Wonder if beshocked's opinion on him would change?

scottrf Saracens do not need Farrell. If it came back to Saracens it would be a big mistake in my opinion. Even if he wanted to come for no salary I would say no.

Swapping Gustard for Farrell is like swapping a race horse for a donkey....

Londontiger I don't think I ever called Farrell amazing. I might have called him competent in the past but that's before I realised that it was his fellow Sarries coaches carrying him. Always knew that Gustard was the superior coach to Farrell.

I do think there are worse coaches in the AP than Farrell but I wouldn't call him top class. If another team wants him they are welcome to him. Perhaps calling Farrell a very poor coach is overly harsh but he's not suited to Saracens anymore. Sarries need to progress.

Luckily there isn't salary cap restrictions for Sarries to worry about with regards to coaches

Bambam yes because of course the Sarries coaches are all household names....

Well talking about Borthwicks experience, Eddie JOnes is very experienced and he seems to be impressed with him so maybe hes quite good.

We will only know in the next few years when we see how it goes. Personally I just hope in this upcoming 6 nations they don't worry about extravagant coaching and just focus solely on the basics.

Do the set pieces well.
A brick wall defence
Have some sort of plan for the breakdown
And be efficient in attack. It doesn't have to be all singing all dancing.

Evening Standard
While the RFU are being portrayed as having stumbled naively into this potentially damaging row, they claim they have been negotiating with Bristol “for weeks” in a bid to agree terms. The Union have been prepared to pay a substantial six-figure sum to secure Borthwick, whose recently-signed 18-month deal with the Championship club is worth less than £250,000, even offering a job-share solution until the end of the season.
The RFU are understood to have offered north of £600,000 in compensation, while Bristol have countered that the richest Union in the world should be offering “millions” in compensation in case they do not get promotion to the Aviva Premiership without Borthwick coaching the forwards

Bristol are such a unlikable club, they're really not coming out of this well.

Bathman_in_London wrote:
Evening Standard
While the RFU are being portrayed as having stumbled naively into this potentially damaging row, they claim they have been negotiating with Bristol “for weeks” in a bid to agree terms. The Union have been prepared to pay a substantial six-figure sum to secure Borthwick, whose recently-signed 18-month deal with the Championship club is worth less than £250,000, even offering a job-share solution until the end of the season.
The RFU are understood to have offered north of £600,000 in compensation, while Bristol have countered that the richest Union in the world should be offering “millions” in compensation in case they do not get promotion to the Aviva Premiership without Borthwick coaching the forwards

If that's true...then I hope they don't go up. That's pure greed.

With £600,000 I'm sure they could get a good replacement...and it sounds like they can even have Borthwick on a share programme for the season.

Hartley captain? Bit of a gamble would be understating it quite heavily!

Duty281 wrote:Hartley captain? Bit of a gamble would be understating it quite heavily!

Not exactly a role model. Ahh well if a violent penalty magnet who's on first name terms with every world rugby citing commissioner is who Jones wants as his captain he must have a very good reason. I have no idea what reason could be though.

Someone with such a dreadful reputation is surely not someone you want liaising with the referee though?

Bathman_in_London wrote:
Evening Standard
While the RFU are being portrayed as having stumbled naively into this potentially damaging row, they claim they have been negotiating with Bristol “for weeks” in a bid to agree terms. The Union have been prepared to pay a substantial six-figure sum to secure Borthwick, whose recently-signed 18-month deal with the Championship club is worth less than £250,000, even offering a job-share solution until the end of the season.
The RFU are understood to have offered north of £600,000 in compensation, while Bristol have countered that the richest Union in the world should be offering “millions” in compensation in case they do not get promotion to the Aviva Premiership without Borthwick coaching the forwards

The RFU should call Bristol's bluff. No court is going to award Bristol very much in compensation. They will take the view that Borthwick has failed to deliver the services agreed under the contract and so Borthwick should not receive the payments due under the contract. Of course Borthwick would not expect any such payments. Unless the employee is moving to a competitor and is likely to actively damage the old employer by for instance taking clients or disclosing company secrets courts are very reluctant to get involved in these sorts of disputes. They will very sensibly take the view that if Bristol are paying Borthwick in the low hundreds of thousands a year that is what his services are worth. The idea that his services are suddenly worth millions or that Bristol could show that had Borthwick stayed they would have been promoted is faintly ludicrous.

Hes not a violent penalty magnet for England though.

Not a role model exactly...but his discipline has been totally different for Country than club.

And he has a lot of experience. Depends on his form over Jamie George and Youngs

Bristol in the premiership...sounds like they'd fit right in! If they can get promoted that is...

I probably wouldn't have selected Hartley as captain - Ben Youngs instead maybe?

Strange for Hartley to be made captain the year he chooses to give up the responsibility for Saints. Valid criticisms of his discipline but he's a leader and an important player for England. I also think some of his recent discipline issues for Saints were punished on reputation. And discipline problems for England have been rare.

Hartley never really came across as an inspirational player to me, and neither did Robshaw. 'Christopher' in an England jersey was awesome at everything but leading.

This is what happens when you replace a clueless schoolteacher with no clue about pro sport, with a pro rugby coach with provenance.

Hartley will be a great abrasive skipper a la Jonno. Perfect choice really, fact is, the cupboard is so bare of leadership that Jones may have felt this was his only choice

How does the media get information like this unless someone has a microphone and is bugging Eddie Jones.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hes not a violent penalty magnet for England though.
Not a role model exactly...but his discipline has been totally different for Country than club.
And he has a lot of experience.  Depends on his form over Jamie George and Youngs

Hartley does indeed have a good record for England.  Hard to understand the reason why his club record is opposite his record with England.  Many players at Saints over the years have said he was a very good captain and were happy he took on that rôle.  Saints are better when is is out there.  Mikey Haywood, Saints number 2 Hooker, is a good, probably soon a very good, player.  But for the moment he lacks Hartley's je ne sais quoi.  Which I believe is the intangible Eddie is looking for.  

Gwlad wrote:This is what happens when you replace a clueless schoolteacher with no clue about pro sport, with a pro rugby coach with provenance.
Hartley will be a great abrasive skipper a la Jonno. Perfect choice really, fact is, the cupboard is so bare of leadership that Jones may have felt this was his only choice

Ultimately, I think you are right.  Right now there are few players who are really sure of having a regular place.  Hartley is the best of the Hookers, and his absence during the RWC was clearly felt, as commented by many of us here.  And he is a proven leader.

Is this a risk?  Likely yes.  Maybe Eddie thinks he can worm his way into Hartley's head and keep the aggressive and abrasiveness whilst controlling Hartley's moments.  

But, first things first.  Hartley needs to get back on the pitch and start playing well.  Hopefully this will happen soon.

In truth Eddie's ball out first decision to replace Wobshaw, a journeyman plodder with Hartley, an abrasive misfit, shows Lancaster up as the man who should never ever have been given custody of English rugby

Not the most inspiring choice to be honest, but i wonder if it's a short term fix so he can have the time to highlight a new leader.

doctor_grey wrote:How does the media get information like this unless someone has a microphone and is bugging Eddie Jones.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hes not a violent penalty magnet for England though.
Not a role model exactly...but his discipline has been totally different for Country than club.
And he has a lot of experience.  Depends on his form over Jamie George and Youngs

Hartley does indeed have a good record for England.  Hard to understand the reason why his club record is opposite his record with England.  Many players at Saints over the years have said he was a very good captain and were happy he took on that rôle.  Saints are better when is is out there.  Mikey Haywood, Saints number 2 Hooker, is a good, probably soon a very good, player.  But for the moment he lacks Hartley's je ne sais quoi.  Which I believe is the intangible Eddie is looking for.  

Gwlad wrote:This is what happens when you replace a clueless schoolteacher with no clue about pro sport, with a pro rugby coach with provenance.
Hartley will be a great abrasive skipper a la Jonno. Perfect choice really, fact is, the cupboard is so bare of leadership that Jones may have felt this was his only choice

Ultimately, I think you are right.  Right now there are few players who are really sure of having a regular place.  Hartley is the best of the Hookers, and his absence during the RWC was clearly felt, as commented by many of us here.  And he is a proven leader.

Is this a risk?  Likely yes.  Maybe Eddie thinks he can worm his way into Hartley's head and keep the aggressive and abrasiveness whilst controlling Hartley's moments.  

But, first things first.  Hartley needs to get back on the pitch and start playing well.  Hopefully this will happen soon.

Hartley has the distinct advantage of being one of the first names on the teamsheet as he is clearly head and shoulders ahead of the opposition for the jersey in terms of ability. How many times do you keep forgiving incidences of 'losing ones head' on the pitch though? It has to be a concern. He's not quite at Danny Grewcock levels of petulent lunacy, but at the same time, he's not a continent away.

I reiterate that Robshaw should be given a break from captaincy and the chance to make the 6 shirt his own during this forthcoming 6N.

I'm sure if he gets over this concussion he'll be a great choice of captain. He's been hard done to a few times with his discipline but even then it's been 99% in his club colours.

i know this argument has been done many times over, but i still don't think Hartley isnt head and shoulders above everyone else.

He has aspects to his game that better than others, but he also has aspects that are worse.

He is the best we have though.

nathan wrote:i know this argument has been done many times over, but i still don't think Hartley isnt head and shoulders above everyone else.

"Don't think he isn't"? Or "don't think he is"?

Yours, Lynne Truss