Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

So the worst kept secret is out...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/12005671/Eddie-Jones-to-be-confirmed-as-England-head-coach-in-next-24-hours.html

Jury's out on this one, will have to see how the 6Ns goes then ponder his selection.

Not sure thats fair, he did go through a rough patch at club level but played some great stuff for Saracens which earned him more time with England. Think there is some case to say teams analysed him well, and shut him down (sometimes illegally). I think he'll get another shot yet earned from his club form but time is running out. If he ever does. recover that initial form it'll go a far way to making England a top top side. I think he is a better player now.

Was only having a bit of fun with the interesting parallel between his performance at Saints v. Sarries. You know, I can't miss an opportunity to poke a little fun at Sarries.

no 7 & 1/2 I've said what I would have done. Gametime against Italy and Scotland.

I think it's better to play him soon rather than later. I think he'll step up to the occasion but I still believe there are more ideal times to give players game time. I wouldn't pick to throw him in against tougher sides first.

As for Ashton, I think the dip at international level was as much to do with Lancaster than anything. Ashton did well for Martin Johnson who utilised his strengths.

Ashton is a player who needs to be involved, come off his wing. Saracens in my opinion have utilised his strengths better than Lancaster even with Farrell as the primary 10.

I do think Ashton is better suited to playing with the likes of Flood,Hodgson and probably Ford than Farrell but Ashton has scored  plenty of tries with Farrell at 10 for Saracens which shows that perhaps it's the coaching of Lancaster at fault.

It's not as if Ashton has played badly for Saracens. Most tries in a HC season would be good proof of that.

Admittedly Ashton blew a big chance to see if he could flourish under Eddie Jones, very foolish.

beshocked wrote: Admittedly Ashton blew a big chance to see if he could flourish under Eddie Jones, very foolish.

Jones seems to like that sort of thing. Ashton will probably be made vice captain in the summer.

People (person?) blame Lancaster for Ashton's collapse in form when playing for England. However it should be noted that the initial dip in form coincided with his issues in his last season at Saints. Ashton had major disciplinary issues at the time, plus was in a massive sulk with Mallinder et al, feeling completely unloved. He was eventually dropped, rather later than perhaps he should with Lancaster showing his usual loyalty. Form for Saracens got him a recall, yet he was really poor again.

He is probably in last chance saloon right now, having completely blown th eopportunity to impress during the 6Ns.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

beshocked wrote: Admittedly Ashton blew a big chance to see if he could flourish under Eddie Jones, very foolish.

Jones seems to like that sort of thing. Ashton will probably be made vice captain in the summer.

True. It's horrifying when you think that Farrell Jr was acting captain with Hartley off the field too.

Bad boys = the best - Eddie Jones' new motto.

Neither Ashton nor Farrell are seen as captain material at Sarries thank god!

Barritt,Wigglesworth,George,Itoje,Burger,Brits,Hargreaves all ahead at least.

Londontiger fair point but we'll never know if Ashton can rediscover his international form under a new coach because he's foolishly blown a big opportunity. Even more foolish because the current England coaching should be perfect for him.

Ashton is a certified bad boy - Eddie Jones likes them. Gustard and Borthwick aren't exactly strangers to him, if there is any defence coach who you think could minimise's Ashton's defensive technique it's Gustard, afterall he's done it for Saracens.

Ashton is an out and out finisher. His problem is that he is also a patsy in defence. Wingers have to field high kicks under pressure and do things like tackling and running back to cover. None of that sits easy with him.

englandglory4ever wrote:Ashton is an out and out finisher. His problem is that he is also a patsy in defence.  Wingers have to field high kicks under pressure and do things like tackling and running back to cover. None of that sits easy with him.

I'd add that the alternatives tend to have much more rounded games. Nowell for instance has hands, strong tackler etc. May and Nowell can both play in the centers. Watson becoming a more rounded player too. Ashton scores tries which is his main job and he's very good at it, but he doesn't offer much else. When the trys dry up its harder for him to justify his place.

I know you would have had him for Scotland and Italy, but seeing as he sounds as if he's missing out I assume that's Itoje done for you now until the AIs.

I do disagree about Ashton under Lancaster, it's not as if Nowell et al are shy joining in the middle.

It's not me who thinks that Itoje is done for now. That's Eddie Jones and co.

no 7 & 1/2 I would hardly call it easy being a winger playing under Lancaster. May and Nowell - not good in 2014 6 nations. May - poor in general under Lancaster. Watson has been okay. Perhaps even May might benefit from a new coach in charge.

Lancaster's primary try scorers were the 13.

Lancaster preferred wingers to sit on the wing and create their own chances on the whole. This is not a strength of Ashton, he's s finisher.

Sit on the wing and cross their fingers that the ball would come to them......

Can't create if you don't get the ball or don't seek it out.

Ashton's main strengths are his finishing and support play. He's not a creator, he's someone who pops up in the right place to take a try scoring pass or make a vital carry. People have said in the past he scores easy tries, it's because he gets himself in the right position.

For whatever reason Ashton didn't utilise that enough for England under Lancaster, on the occasions he did he scored, e.g. his try in the big win vs NZ, Manu made the break, he took the pass for an easy try.

Beshocked, given that Itoje looks set not to feature would you not pick him at all until the AIs?

May and Nowell outperformed Ashton, so did Watson.

no 7 & 1/2 I would pick Itoje because I think he's ready for international rugby but as I've said before my preferable time would have been vs Italy and Scotland or in the RWC warm ups.

6/10 might be better than 5/10 - still doesn't make it a good score.

If I was giving ratings of overall international career - I would say Ashton - 7/10 - 5/10 under Lancaster, 9/10 under Johnson. May - 5/10, Nowell - 7/10 (5/10 in 2014, 8/10 in 2015).

Watson - 6.5/10

May didn't outperform Ashton - overall May's been poor for England, at least Ashton had a strong spell which fueled the hope he could rediscover it.

So you don't really have a policy on what teams are suitable for debuts, it's purely down to how you rate the players, otherwise if Itoje missed out this weekend (going by your explanation around Nowell) he would/should have missed out until a weaker team in the Autumn.

May has outperformed Ashton if we ignore the anomalous early period which he hasn't yet reproduced. Not overly bothered though as I'm sure we'll see both playing under Jones at some point in the future.

no 7 & 1/2

I have made it clear when I think the best time to play debutants are.

RWC warm ups, Scotland and Italy - the most ideal.

If the coach fails to play player X in those then yes they might have to play them in a not ideal match.

Nowell could have been played vs Scotland away in his first game. It's not waiting a few months to play him.

Ignoring Ashton's early form is simply you cherrypicking. May's try strike rate is a lot worse than Ashton's, Nowell's and Watson's.

I don't think May has outperformed Ashton, I still think May is the most overrated winger in England. Most of his praise is based on one good try vs NZ and supposedly being world class in training. Ashton scored a try vs NZ too but doesn't get the same praise. Probably because he's not road runner.

You've made it clear yes. So just to confirm you would want Jones to wait until the AIs to blood Itoje (if he doesn't get picked this weekend). You will be openly critcising him for any call pitting him against Wales, Ireland or France on debut.

May actually played really well in the AIs, it's just unfortunate you didn't watch them.

May vs Ashton is almost pointless.

It was only one try vs NZ but May did all the work for it, which is why it was exceptional. And no he doesn't do it all the time, who does? but the standard highlights reels show that he does do that kind of thing often enough.

He also does this odd thing for a winger which is called passing, so he also makes trys for others, and this thing called chasing kicks, which can cause chaos when it all works and is just giving the ball away when it doesn't, which happens (for England) all too often when he's not playing.

Because he was a young guy with a lot of promise he was given a lot of chances, yes. But he was getting better all the time, and looking more the part. He's broke and Ashton is banned so it doesn't matter.

no 7 & 1/2 I don't know how you finding it difficult to understand what I am saying.

Ideal time = easier games but if the coaches don't pick him at the ideal times then the less ideal times will have to do.

My preference is the likes of Scotland,Italy,RWC warm up games but failure to do this means that Itoje will have to debut against a tougher side, not ideal but will have to happen.

Better to play him than wait,wait,wait and wait. Keep hearing just be patient, he'll get his chance. Hasn't happened yet. The argument has been don't rush him - many posters don't see a problem with other players being fast tracked.

May playing well in one or two games doesn't mean he's good enough. Overall he's been poor for England in my opinion.

lostinwales and yet all tries are worth 5 points, an interception or chargedown can be just as important. An individual try might look great in the highlights reel but it doesn't necessarily make it as crucial as another etc.

Jonny May -A lot of hype, given a lot of chances and on balance hasn't delivered. There's still a chance he might turn things around when he's fit again. I hope he can but till then he's overrated IMO.

Would like it if he came back, proved me wrong with some great performances.

My opinion is not necessarily set in stone. I think Nowell is one of the best wingers at the moment for England.

I think it's because I'm asking a direct question and you keep side stepping with the answer beshocked.

If Itoje makes his debut against Ireland, Wales or France will you be as openly critical as you were when nowell made his? I won't even go into whether he only gets 5 min here or there vs Italy.

I am not sidestepping.

If Itoje makes his debut against Ireland,Wales or France as a starter, I will deem it a risk but the circumstances will need to assessed.

If Itoje plays and makes a high profile mistake or two which means one of those sides win then the scrutiny will be greater. Could be deemed as an error.

I won't be as critical as I was of Nowell because I think Itoje must get gametime sooner than later but if I back Itoje and it fails then it will warrant criticism.

If I back a player then it reflects badly on me if they don't deliver.

I have no idea how it can reflect badly on you but that last post is now pretty much in line with how I see introducing players. If they are good enough play them. You don't have to wait to play a Tonga or Samoa. Every player will make a mistake or 2 in an 80 min game so again don't worry if it happens.

'I won't be as critical as I was of Nowell because I think Itoje must get gametime sooner than later but if I back Itoje and it fails then it will warrant criticism.'

I have no idea why picking one promising player demands criticism while one won't. Could it be because one plays for Saracens and one replaced a Saracen? Nowell was deemed good enough fair enough. Itoje will be deemed good enough sooner or later, good enough.

Do you not see how you seem to be picking and choosing when to use the an argument and when not to. The thing about only wanting debuts vs an Italy standard opponent is blown away with your comments on Itoje. Just say it as you think it is. Itoje is good enough to be at least on the bench (probably starting as you rate him better than Kruis and you rate him as a starter now). You didn't rate Nowell as a good enough player at the time he made his debut. At least that way a discussion on the relative merits of the players could be had instead of an argument over how a France team will never be worse than a Scotland team etc.

beshocked wrote:I am not sidestepping.

If Itoje makes his debut against Ireland,Wales or France as a starter, I will deem it a risk but the circumstances will need to assessed.

If Itoje plays and makes a high profile mistake or two which means one of those sides win then the scrutiny will be greater. Could be deemed as an error.

I won't be as critical as I was of Nowell because I think Itoje must get gametime sooner than later but if I back Itoje and it fails then it will warrant criticism.

If I back a player then it reflects badly on me if they don't deliver.

Why?? I don see the difference?

Well, Jack didn't/doesn't play for Saracens obviously

Geordiefalcon I've explained it many times..... I've wanted Itoje to get gametime in the RWC warm ups, vs Scotland and Italy.

None of those have happened. All in my opinion would have been ideal. Debuting vs a tougher side is not ideal but if that's the only time, Eddie Jones will give him game time then it will have to suffice. Like any risk it could backfire.

no 7 & 1/2 it comes down to balance again. Of course you can play someone too soon.

I am not picking and choosing.

I have made it clear - I think the best time to pick new players is in the easier games or warm up games to ease players in.

You are picking and choosing, you've just said it would be ok for Itoje and not for Nowell.

But we're in a position where we have a stable of very good locks? Its more difficult for him to get in the picture until he is absolutely ready.
Unless you think an exception should be made for him?

Nowell was different. We didn't have many top quality wingers so there was a bit more of a push to try a few of the youngsters.

Okay for what? I wouldn't want to start Itoje vs France away in the first game of the 6 nations ideally either. Could well turn out to be a mistake if he starts vs tougher opposition.

The difference is that Itoje has not been an opportunity at international level yet numerous opportunities have been wasted so far to try him, Nowell was thrown into the deep end against France away which is a tougher encounter than Scotland whatever people say.

There is no guarantee that Itoje's debut will be a success if he's indeed ever given a chance.

We will not know till he is given an opportunity.

Why do we always get back to Itoje?

Jones has had a look at him and he obviously rates Lawes higher at this moment in time. To be fair, Itoje went back to Sarries and didn't really impress from the bench at the weekend.

'I won't be as critical as I was of Nowell because I think Itoje must get gametime sooner than later ...'

Your decision and criticism has nothing to do with the team they make their debut against reall does it. It's either a mistake to start them against France Ireland Wales ot it's down to whether the player is ready. You think Itoje is ready, if he doesn't make his debut vs Italy you'll be wanting him to get it vs them. You didn't want Nowell to play as you didn't think he was good enough. That's the real reason, the rest is smoke and mirrors. And to be fair you'd get a lot less stick around the issue if you'd just say that.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But we're in a position where we have a stable of very good locks? Its more difficult for him to get in the picture until he is absolutely ready.
Unless you think an exception should be made for him?

Nowell was different. We didn't have many top quality wingers so there was a bit more of a push to try a few of the youngsters.

Geordiefalcon not sure that was the case vs Scotland - one of the locks had serious issues with his hamstring and was only deemed fit at the 11th hour. One of the others had a serious stomach bug and had to come off at half time allegedly to relieve himself.

Sgt pooly it's because leaving him out isn't good enough. always looking for the opportunity to rubbish Itoje don't you? Man of the match vs Bath, voted AP player of December, man of the match vs Worcester, part one of the most powerful club packs in Europe at the moment, almost as many turnovers as Ksevic (Ksevic overtook him last week because Itoje didn't play for long vs Exeter). Of course he's overrated right?

We had Ashton who was playing well at club level and was experienced, Lancaster thought it was smart to pick not one but two new players on the wings.... One got crocked earlier on, forcing Goode onto the wing. The other knocked on with his first touch which led to a try then later on got in a communication mix up with Goode which meant France scored another.

Where did I rubbish him, where did I say he was overrated?

Jones has looked at him and decided he's not as good as Lawes, Jones knows a lot more than you which you'll obviously not understand.

Teimana Harrison was named forward of the month in December and has won numerous motm awards, it means very little when the International selections come up.

Stop blabbering on about Itoje, he's not playing....get over it.

For the 58th time everybody rates Itoje and see a huge future for him. Despite this most people think that just maybe there is an outside chance that the alternatives right now might be a better fit for England at the moment, and that there are some very good alternatives available.

This conversation is getting increasingly tiresome. Can we talk about something else?

Isn't it great that all the talk about Hartley and his record have disappeared since Saturday

So May was considered new even not on debut. At least we can finally drop that nonsense. Plain and simple beshocked rates Itoje, didn't rate Nowell and doesn't rate May.

Sean Robinson is better than Itoje...outplayed him when they came to KP...

On a serious note I see Ed Slater has got himself 14 stiches....cutting a frozen bagel.

GeordieFalcon wrote:On a serious note I see Ed Slater has got himself 14 stiches....cutting a frozen bagel.

For one of the smarter players on the pitch it is one of dumber injuries I've heard of a player picking up away from it!

Especially when you factor in that most off pitch injuries are caused by 'unfortunate circumstances' outside of night clubs at 4am rather than making breakfast...

It's the sheer number of stitches that really struck me - 14 seems a hell of a lot for a injury caused cutting a bagel.

I stated my reservations about Jones before he was appointed. He's obviously a class act but I'm worried his brand of coaching is not ideal for England. He doesn't have a good track record of developing young talent (especially by comparison with the likes of Gatland and Hansen). For all his talk about dominant England forwards, he usually develops teams with just an adequate set piece who have a high work rate around the pitch.

If he gets results doing that, then he will have delivered on his side of the bargain.

I'll be interested to see how Jones handles development. You sometimes got the impression that many of Lancaster's selection decisions followed a path of logic determined by his very first squad choice.

For instance, it's well-known that he had planned to choose Tom Wood as his first captain. Robshaw got the job when Wood was injured, and Lancaster never went back. For all his lack of silverware, Lancaster never had a terrible run which forced him to think of a clear-out, or a fundamental reorganization of his squad. Injuries did a lot of the selection work.

We are all wondering how Jones will include Itoje in his thinking, given Launchbury, Lawes and Kruis have started. I'm also intrigued by how he will assess the claims of Slater, Kitchener et al. In what context do they ever get a look-in?

I don't think Jones has so many qualms as Lancaster about changing a team but the balancing act between immediate performance and long term development is a tricky one. I wonder whether we'll look back in a few years and realize that some players lost out on the World Cup simply by not being pieces on the board when Jones first took the reins.

Lostinwales huge future. When does the future become now?

Hartley still has a lot to prove. Plus he's still preventing George from getting game time which is disappointing.

No 7 & 1/2 not sure what you're having difficulty understanding - it's preferable to give game time to debutants against weaker opposition or in warm up games.

Geordiefalcon keep dreaming.

Sgt. poorly your posts show this. You think he's worse than some journeymen from Newcastle. Itoje won the December award. Gets your facts right.

Is teimana Harrison in the England squad? Is he relevant? No he isn't.

There's nothing to misunderstand I've acknowledged your preferred teams to make a debut against but when it comes down to it you would want to see Itoje start or be on the bench for the Wales, Ireland France game(s) whether he makes a debut this weekend or not. Something you were extremely critical of for Nowell. That just comes down to the fact you rate Itoje much higher than you did or do Nowell.

In defence to Sgt I've seen a few posters say that Robinson bullied Itoje that day.

Poor old Tiamani Harrison! I hope he isn't reading this thread over his morning cornflakes.

Sgt Poorly....nothing like attacking a persons username when you're losing a debate.

My bad, Harrison was named forward of the month in Jan. Nobody has said Robinson was better(he's not a journeyman either), we said he outplayed Itoje, which he did.

Itoje isn't in the England side so what relevance is he? You said he should be picked because of Decembers award.....well Harrison won it in Jan.

You're making yourself look a bit foolish Beshocked, perhaps you should take a break again?

No 7&1/2 wrote:In defence to Sgt I've seen a few posters say that Robinson bullied Itoje that day.

while I disagree with the term bullied, it is uses consistently with the way B uses it. On that particular day Itoje was the 4th best lock on the field. That is not to say that robinson is a better player, but he played better on that day and highlighted that Itoje is not the finished article.


I really cannot believe we are discussing this still though. Everyone has agreed that Itoje is a fine prospect and we would like to see him get some time in an England shirt. Most of us also agree that currently there are better players in his position - and none of them are old.


It is hypocrisy to defend the early selections of May and Nowell, yet insist Itoje should not at least be seen (is anyone arguing this? Also 2nd row is stronger than wing was). It is abject hypocrisy to argue the other way round and merely serves to demonstrate innate prejudices.

no 7 & 1/2 it's about how to handle a player. I would have tried Nowell vs Scotland instead of France away. I would try Itoje against Itay or Scotland. It is not preferable to do so vs Wales,Ireland or France

Robinson did not bully Itoje. You can falsely believe it was the case. Doesn't make you right.

Itoje and the Saracens team destroyed Newcastle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aentI8GGYlg

38-3 is a fair definition of that. Itoje made some big carries later in the game which helped wear down the tenacious Newcastle. Rugby is a 80 minute game, Newcastle were limited and one dimensional throughout the entire 80.

Of course if you want to ignore the evidence that's your loss.

A team being on top does not equal to all 15 players playing better than their opposite numbers, nobody of sound mind would think this.

As LT says, Itoje was the 4th best lock on the park that day. Luckily for Saracens, Kruis was the best by some margin.

Didn't see the game. Just going by what I was told that Itoje wasn't the best lock on the pitch. The result of the game has no bearing on that.

What's the big difference between Nowell's case and Itojes?

Kruis was stunnin gly good that day.

And 38-3 was not a fair reflection. One intercept try with 2 minutes to go, and a 4th try about 7 minutes after time was up purley because Newcastle kept trying to play rather than kick the ball off the park all gave a lopsided view to the scoreline.

Based on performances the two tries to nill was a fair reflection. Something people who actually watch a game rather than rely on a scoreboard would know.

No 7&1/2 wrote:What's the big difference between Nowell's case and Itojes?

Objectively the only difference is that the competition on the wing was weaker than currently in the second row.

Of course this has all become subjective, and down to someone rating one player more than the other and believing they know more than experienced coaches.

Tell a lie I did see that game. I'll take it back I didn't think Robinson was that good!

The annoying thing LT is I'd be absolutely fine with that argument. I've thought plenty of times what on earth is the coach doing! Annoys me when people attribute a reason to that that they then ignore when it doesn't suit the argument.