[solved]Hall of Fame 2015/6 - Round 1 Group A

Hi all.

A couple of years ago, we ran a Hall of Fame vote to decide the greatest sportsman to be the first inductee to the v2 HoF.

Well the competition is back and we are asking you all to vote for your favourites once again, to see who can Join Mohammed Ali.

We have 16 first round groups for you all to vote on - top 2 go through to the knockouts. Feel free to add why you think your choices should go through.

Please vote for your top two choices and let the best man/ woman win.

Todays nominees are:

Maradonna
Muttiah Muralitharan
Daley Thomspon
Martina Navratilova

Gone for Maradona. Arguably the greatest ever player in the most played sport in the world (?).

Of those four you have to go with Maradonna. May have been a cheating little barsteward, but still in the debate for being the best player in the most globalised sport.

Navratilova would be my second pick - OK, so you can argue about the relative merits of women's sport and how competitive the rest of the field may be, but women's tennis is undoubtedly a serious sport and MN's record if you include both singles and doubles sets her ahead of the field.

Murali - great bowler, but 'it's only cricket' (i.e. not competing against the broadest international field), and he benefitted from playing more than half his matches in conditions that absolutely suited him. How his stats would have compared with Warne if he was the Aussie and Warne had been the Sri Lankan is always a debateable point.

Daley Thompson - Wouldn't be in the discussion if this was not a British-based board. Yes, winning two Olympic decathlon titles is impressive but not unique, and it is always difficult to get too excited by multi-event athletes unless they excel to a world class level inone event. Thompson didn't, but was very effective as a 'jack of all trades' performer.

How can it be Maradonna, he isn't anywhere near the best player from his own sport. Messi, CR7 and pele are clearly ahead of him and the argument could be made for a few others to surpass him.

I'd have Maradona ahead of both Messi and Ronaldo, his performances in the 86 world cup set him apart, it's a level that either of them have ever been close to replicating whilst his exploits at Napoli were nothing short of sensational.

Maradona doesn't have longevity on his side but he was bloody good for about 6-7 years.

hammersmith

Are you joking?

What about the level Ronaldo and Messi have been performing at (in a repeatable manner) since 2006? You could not ask for better evidence of greatness than the way they have both performed over a long period of time.

Maradona's data points are a little lacking in contrast.


Another way to look at it,

Goals(games)(goals per game) while playing at top European clubs.

Messi 418(494)(0.85)
Ronaldo 444(608)(0.73)
Maradona 161(346)(0.47)

Are those stats meant to somehow prove that they're better than Maradona, there's more to greatness than statistics.

As a Man United fan i'm a big fan of Ronaldo but he simply isn't fit to carry Maradona's jockstrap nor in reality is Messi, internationally there is no comparison between the three. Doing it at a European super power like Barcelona, Madrid or Man United is one thing but turning Napoli into title winners is a sign of true greatness.

I cannot engage with someone who does not value data. Thank you and goodnight.

Doubt if any of these will get through the next round, but I'll go with Daley Thompson - he helped elevate an entire sport, not to mention his particular event, at a time when political interference meant that athletics needed (elevating) it most.

Like Mac, I would rate Maradona last of this lot.

Certainly think Messi is better than Maradona on pure talent exhibited. But I still prefer Maradona to Thompson or Murali. The Rat-Nav also gets a vote

Navratilova head and shoulders above the others (metaphorically anyway). The yanks hated her because she was a "commie-gay". The soviets put her on a kidnap list post defection. Yet her skill, longevity, intelligence and refusal to be anything other than polite in the face of bigots won people over. A true legend.

Maradona, hugely talented - but not most talented player I have seen. He decided to urine and snort his talent away.

Murali - can think of at least 10 cricketers who should be on this list ahead him.


Daley - made the absolute most of what he had. His fighting spirit enabled him to beat opponents with far superior natural gifts.

This is not a debate over who's best, but who should be in the HOF. And there's no doubt Maradona will be remembered long after Messi, CR7 et al. The man was the biggest sports star at his time and is a legend no matter how you look at it. Second would be Martina.

McLaren wrote:hammersmith

Are you joking?

What about the level Ronaldo and Messi have been performing at (in a repeatable manner) since 2006? You could not ask for better evidence of greatness than the way they have both performed over a long period of time.

Maradona's data points are a little lacking in contrast.


Another way to look at it,

Goals(games)(goals per game) while playing at top European clubs.

Messi 418(494)(0.85)
Ronaldo 444(608)(0.73)
Maradona 161(346)(0.47)

On the other hand, neither Messi or Ronaldo have dragged their side to world cup triumph. Messi nearly did it, but ultimately failed to do so. Also, Maradona played deeper than the other two. do hate all these stats tbh. In years to come people will be rating players on pass percentage etc. In fact, some do now, which is worrying.

Maradona may have "dragged his side to world cup triumph", but he did so by cheating. I would never vote a cheat into the hall of fame.

Stella

Are you suggesting football should be placed alongside religion in the group of things we don't require evidence for, to justify claims made about them?

golfermartin wrote:Maradona may have "dragged his side to world cup triumph", but he did so by cheating. I would never vote a cheat into the hall of fame.

Ronaldo and Messi cheat every time they take a dive. Not justifying it, just putting it in context.

McLaren wrote:Stella

Are you suggesting football should be placed alongside religion in the group of things we don't require evidence for, to justify claims made about them?

Game of opinions, and always will be. watching a game/player is a far better way of assessing, than looking at the stats in the paper. Take Zidane. Didn't score that many, or even I suspect have loads of assists, but he always played the right ball at the right time.

Dr Shoe wrote:

golfermartin wrote:Maradona may have "dragged his side to world cup triumph", but he did so by cheating. I would never vote a cheat into the hall of fame.

Ronaldo and Messi cheat every time they take a dive. Not justifying it, just putting it in context.

Which is why I have a very low opinion of footballers. It always amuses me when they cross themselves before they go onto the pitch, knowing full well that given half an opportunity, they will use foul means to win the game - very Christian!!

golfermartin wrote:

Dr Shoe wrote:

golfermartin wrote:Maradona may have "dragged his side to world cup triumph", but he did so by cheating. I would never vote a cheat into the hall of fame.

Ronaldo and Messi cheat every time they take a dive. Not justifying it, just putting it in context.

Which is why I have a very low opinion of footballers. It always amuses me when they cross themselves before they go onto the pitch, knowing full well that given half an opportunity, they will use foul means to win the game - very Christian!!

99% of players will shout 'our ball' when they damn well know the last touch was made by them. In other words most players cheat. I know Maradona took it to the next level :-)

golfermartin wrote:

Dr Shoe wrote:

golfermartin wrote:Maradona may have "dragged his side to world cup triumph", but he did so by cheating. I would never vote a cheat into the hall of fame.

Ronaldo and Messi cheat every time they take a dive. Not justifying it, just putting it in context.

Which is why I have a very low opinion of footballers. It always amuses me when they cross themselves before they go onto the pitch, knowing full well that given half an opportunity, they will use foul means to win the game - very Christian!!

Well, it was Gods hand that helped Maradona, wasn't it?

I forgot to vote for my second option, but it would have been Martina. She seemed to win everything when I was a kid, much like Davis did at snooker, and Liverpool at Football.

Stella wrote:and Liverpool at Football.

oooh, don't go there...

Mac

Your stats are comparatively useless and only go to show that you have little or no understanding of football.

1 Ronaldo & Messi play in a 2.5 team league where lots of goals are scored. Maradona scored lots of his goals in the Italian league at a time when defensive skills were greater than they are now.
2 As mentioned above Ronaldo & Messi are forwards, Maradona was mainly playing in midfield.
3 Looking at International goals only
Ronaldo 55 goals 123 caps
Messi 49 goals 105 caps
Maradona 34 goals 91 caps

cf Wayne Rooney 51 goals 109 caps. Now you'll be suggesting that he should be mentioned in the same breath. But there is a lot more to being a great footballer than just goals scored.

As regards this vote for me its Maradona then Martina.

Lionel Messi- Football- Championed by- Chris Wilkinson

It may seem ludicrous to talk about a man aged 25 as the Greatest Of All Time. Lionel Messi could easily have ten more years in football, and with talent like his he would have ten years at the top of the sport.

It's no cliche to suggest we are running out of superlatives to describe the Argentinean's performances. Messi is a magician. Young and old are mesmerised watching him at work, a player who has transcended the cynical modern critics, and brings back a level of excitement to the sport that many lose with age. People will watch Spanish football just to see him play.

Even the egomaniacs like Diego Maradona - “his potential is limitless and I think he’s got everything it takes to become Argentina’s greatest player"" - and Cristiano Ronaldo - ""Messi has his personality and I have mine. He has his game and I have mine. I also play in a big club like him. We are different in every aspect. But right now, he is the best"" - have had to give in to the brilliance of Lionel Messi.

The achievements are constantly stacking up. Leading Barcelona goalscorer of all time, four Champions League top goalscorer awards in a row, a Guinness World Record for most goals in a year (91), four Ballon D'Ors, an Olympic Gold Medal five La Liga titles, three Champions League winner's medals and many more.

In a team game, the contribution of others can be noted as one player achieves greatness. There is no doubting he is playing in one of the greatest teams of all time. But, quite possibly, without Messi they would be nowhere near some of the notable greats.

He is a one man sensation. He not only compares to the solo sports star, he eclipses them.

If he was Sampras he'd have won the French Open and won at least 5 more Australian Open's too.

If he were an opening batsman he'd average at least 70, and he'd be racking up 5 for's like he was owed one each game.

Whilst these one man bands have just an opponent to focus on, Leo Messi is a marked man who has players flying at him all game, a constant focus for every outfield player. He plays with a smile, never deceives the referee and never stops running at players, no matter how hard they hit him.

The one grey spot is the lack of international trophies, which must be a driving force to a man who only has Olympic Gold for his national side. To stick with the tennis comparison, the Argentinean side with their appalling defence, line of poor managers and destructive behind the scenes politics are like forcing Federer out on court but banning him from serving.

In a sport where the collective can restrict the achievements of the individual, Lionel Messi is standing head and shoulders above every man playing, and has the ability that no other man before him has had.

They said he didn't turn up in the big games, he couldn't play against English sides and his heading was weak. He scores a header against Manchester United in the Champions League final to clinch victory in Rome.

His weakness is the international stage. He has 76 caps at 25 years old, and 31 goals. Nearly a goal every two games, some weakness.

A boy who had to have hormone treatment as a teenager to help his growth, who was slated as too injury prone at the age of 18, has become a man that every player watches in a daze and no one wants to face.

Whilst much of this may seem trite, his brilliance is almost overwhelming. I cannot list all his achievements, I cannot describe every moment of majesty which outdoes the last. There is not the space nor time.

He's already eclipsed any individual brilliance of any sports star, and at 25 he has years ahead to widen the gap.

Youtube screams legend with every clip of the maestro.

Even in the modern days where to have been great in yesteryear appears to put a man on a pedastal that stars of today cannot match Messi is talked of as greater. In the world's most popular sport the man is head and shoulders above every competitor.

Diego Maradona- Football- Championed by Hero

One day, Lionel Messi will possibly prove to be the global game's greatest player, but not yet, and certainly not just because he has blown the all-time number of goals in a calendar year. Messi may be scoring goals at a rate rarely seen since Dixie Dean's heyday, but he does have the advantage of being at the sharp end of probably the greatest club side of all time. Take Messi out of Barcelona and what do you have?

We already have an answer.

In the last World Cup Messi failed to score in five matches as Argentina lost in the quarter-final to Germany whilst his Barca teammates have lifted the Euro twice and the World Cup. It is argued that the Champions League is now a higher standard than the World Cup (not that the presence of Apoel Nicosia in the quarter-finals adds much weight to that view). Whether it is or not is irrelevant when judging Messi because he is playing for the best team in the competition, a team which even without him would be formidable. A truly great player is capable of turning a moderate team into a winning one. Like Diego Maradona.

English attitudes towards Maradona are understandably coloured by the "Hand of God" goal but his notoriety should not obscure his greatness. Maradona turned base materials into gold on both the club and international stage. Napoli were a shambles when they somehow found the cash to buy him in 1984. Fighting relegation had become a way of life with the club surviving by a point the previous season. Maradona turned them into title contenders and in 1986/87 they won the first scudetto in the club's history. A second Serie A title, and Napoli's first European prize, the Uefa Cup, followed. Since Maradona left, the club have not won a trophy.

Maradona was similarly central to Argentina's 1986 World Cup success. Ten of their 14 goals were scored or created by him, and his five goals included superb ones against England and Belgium of the type now associated with Messi. In the final, after West Germany had come back from 2-0 down to level, he supplied the pass for Jorge Burruchaga to score the winner. All this while carrying a knee injury which had threatened to rule him out of the tournament.

Brian Glanville, in The Story of the World Cup, his history of the competition since 1930, wrote: "It will always be remembered as Maradona's World Cup, seldom has a player, even Pele, so dominated the competition. In an era when individual talent was at a premium, defensive football more prevalent than ever, Maradona – squat, muscular, explosive, endlessly adroit – showed that a footballer of genius could still prevail."

This context is another factor in Maradona's primacy. He formerly played in an era when the tactics were negative and the tackling brutal. Maradona's relative lack of impact at Barcelona, and later decline, had much to do with the injuries he suffered including the notorious ankle-break by Andoni Goikoetxea, the "Butcher of Bilbao". Only after the 1990 World Cup, when Maradona carried to the final an Argentine team which was as guilty of these sins as any, did Fifa begin the crackdown which has allowed players like Messi to flourish.

Simply put Maradona was the best player in the most global sport and therefore rightfully should challenge for the biggest prize of all, the G.O.A.T.

Gone with Navratilova, just ahead of Maradonna. I think while debating Hall of Fame one needs to take into account not just on-field performances; integrity, and personality comes into it too, and while in pure sporting terms there's not much between them Maradonna's flaws in other areas tilt the balance in Navratilova's direction for me.

PS: I think Daley-Thompson is a mighty fine athlete, but he should really be trailing a considerable distance behind the Navratilova here, and about on a par with Murali IMO.

OK, just realised I'm meant to vote for two guys, oops. Can't cancel? However, given my second vote would have been Maradonna, who's comfortably ahead at this moment, it's probably not very important...