[solved]Hall of Fame 2015/6 - Round 1 Group H

Here is round eight of this years Hall of Fame.

All polls will remain open for a week so make sure to vote ASAP for your favourites.

The 1st round matches still open to voting can be found here -

https://www.606v2.com/t61451-hall-of-fame-2015-6-round-1-group-g

https://www.606v2.com/t61437-hall-of-fame-2015-6-round-1-group-f

https://www.606v2.com/t61410-hall-of-fame-2015-6-round-1-group-e

https://www.606v2.com/t61404-hall-of-fame-2015-6-round-1-group-d

Todays poll features stars from the world of Rugby, Boxing, Ice Hockey and Tennis

Please vote for your top two choices and let the best man/ woman win.

Your nominees are:

Dan Carter
Sugar Ray Leonard
Wayne Gretzky
Serena Williams

Wayne Gretzky – Championed by Azzy Mahmood

If you’re looking for a G.O.A.T., then look no further than Wayne Gretzky, or as he is more commonly known, ‘The Great One’. Gretzky is the best ice hockey player of all-time, by some considerable distance, with an incredible number of records set during his 20-year NHL career that will never, ever be broken.

In ice hockey there are a wide variety of stats. To make this brief, I’ll only talk about the three main stats – points, goals and assists. Points = goals + assists in case you’re unfamiliar with ice hockey (please do ask questions in the thread, I’m happy to answer them).

Points: Gretzky is the leading point-scorer in NHL history, with 2,857 points. Second-placed Mark Messier has 1,887 points. Only one player in NHL history has scored over 200 points in a single season – which Gretzky did four times. And only Gretzky and Mario Lemieux have ever scored more than 155 points in a season. Points-wise, Gretzky was the greatest player by far.

Goals: Gretzky scored 894 goals in his career, 93 more than second-placed Gordie Howe. He took the 5th most number of shots in history. A devastating stat is that he leads all players in short-handed goals – with 73 – showing that, even playing with the equivalent of 9 men, he was still head and shoulders above the rest. The most number of goals in one season is 92 – by Gretzky. He also has the most number of hat-tricks – 50 in total. As the stats show, Gretzky was the best goal scorer in hockey history.

Assists: Gretzky provided 1,963 assists which, you may notice, is more than any other player has even when combining goals and assists. Even if he had never scored a goal in his career, he’d still lead the points table. That is a measure of just how great Gretzky was.

When Gretzky retired in 1999, he held 40 regular-season records, 15 playoff records, and six All-Star game records. Most of these will never be beaten. He was immediately inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame, waiving the normal 3-year waiting period. The NHL retired his jersey number 99 league-wide, the only player to have had this recognition. If you see a sports player with ‘99’ on his shirt, it is almost certainly a tribute to The Great One.
In terms of peer recognition, Gretzky captured nine Hart Trophies as the league’s MVP, five Lester B. Pearson Awards as the players’ MVP, five Lady Byng Trophies for sportsmanship and performance, and two Conn Smythe Trophies as playoff MVP. During his career he also won four Stanley Cups with the Edmonton Oilers –the ultimate trophy in ice hockey - and led the Los Angeles Kings to the Stanley Cup Finals as well. Following his playing career, he became Executive Director of the Canadian men’s ice hockey team, leading them to Olympic Gold at the 2002 Winter Olympics.
In all of sporting history, no transfer, draft pick or trade has ever caused as much emotional outpouring as ‘The Trade’. On 9 August 1988 Canada was in uproar as Edmonton traded Gretzky to Los Angeles for $15m (at that time, a hefty sum), plus an exchange of other players back-and-forth. Canadian politicians demanded that the Canadian government block the trade, and the owner of Edmonton was vilified to such an extent that his own fans burned effigies of him outside their arena. Gretzky himself was unable to talk at the press conference, such was his love for his team, as he cried in front of hundreds of journalists. The Trade has been referenced in films and on TV ever since.

‘The Trade’ did have one very positive effect. It made California, previously oblivious to ice hockey, stand up and take notice of the sport – Gretzky is often credited with being single-handedly responsible for popularizing the sport in California.

In addition to all this, Gretzky was chosen to be the final torch-bearer at the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver, lighting the cauldron. Nickelback had Gretzky in their video for ‘Rock Star’, and reportedly wouldn’t make the video if they couldn’t get him in it. Gretzky also appears in all the TV adverts for Visit California – a measure of how much he is loved there, that a Canadian sportsman could be an ambassador for their state.

So there it is. I hope this has opened a few people’s eyes to the greatness of Wayne Gretzky, a man who I believe truly is the Greatest Of All Time. He won everything there was to win, he broke every record there was to break, and he made the sport what it is today. There will never be another like Wayne Gretzky.

Sugar Ray Leonard- Boxing- Championed by- Rowley

Born in 1956 Ray Leoanrd began his amateur career in 1972 and soon marked himself out as something special, whilst still in his teens Ray already had three National Golden Glves, 2 AAU and the 1975 Pan American Games titles to his name. This form guaranteed Ray a place in America's legendary 1976 Olympic team which won no less than five gold medals. Despite his stellar amateur careeer Ray was not favoured to win gold as his his weight division was Cuban Great Andres Aldama who had scored five straight knockouts on his way to the final. However this mattered little when he met Leonard in the final as Ray beat him 5-0 in an absolute master class. Ray finished out his career with a ledger of an unbelievable 155 wins from 160 fights.

Perhaps unbelievably on the back of his amateur success Ray did not intend to turn pro as he expected lucrative endorsement contracts to come his way. However when these contracts failed to materialise and Ray's father became seriously ill Ray needed to raise some money and quick and the obvious way to achieve this was in taking up one of the numerous offers he had received to turn professional.

Ray's early pro career gave some indication of the greatness to come when he amassed a record of 25-0 in less than three years as a paid fighter. This was enough to earn Ray his first world title shot against the then WBC welterweight champion Wilfredo Benitez. Benitez had made boxing history when beating the excellent Antonio Cervantes to become the youngest world champion ever before moving up to win his second world title at welterweight. At the time of the Leonard fight Benitez had an excellent record of 38-0-1. The fight was something of a tactical masterclass with each fighter displaying sublime defensive skills. However it was to be Ray's superior offensive arsenal which won the day and he stopped Benitez with literally seconds left on the clock.

After a routine defence against Britain's own Dave Boy Green Leonard was to experience his first set back when he met all time great Roberto Duran. Throughout the build up Duran insulted Leonard relentlessly, so much so that Ray that come fight night Ray decided to stand and trade with the fearsom Duran, a decision that cost him a close but justified points loss. Whilst Ray was an intelligent fighter inside the ring he was just as shrewd outside of it and when he heard Duran had been partying a bit too hard on the back of beating him Leonard exercised the rematch clause in his contract and little more than five months later was once again in the ring with Duran. This time Ray made sure he did not brawl with Duran and employed all his ring craft to stay on the outside of the marauding Duran even employing showboating and all manner of tricks to frustrate his opponent. So frustrated did Duran become with Leonard's tactics he quit in the eight round in the infamous "no mas" incident with Duran pretty much turning his back on the fight and declaring he no longer wished to fight Leonard.

Leonard went on to win a title at a second weight when he beat the unbeaten Ayub Kalule for the WBA light middle weight title finishing matters with a peach of a right hand in the ninth round. However Ray was not done with the welterweight division as a new star had emerged on the scene in the shape of the fearson 6ft 1 Tommy Hearns who had amassed a record of 32-0 on his way to the WBA weolterweight championship, of those 32 wins only two opponents had heard the final bell. Hearns was an absolute wrecking ball at the weight as anyone who has seen him starching Pipino Cuevas to win the title can testify.

When the two came together Ray struggled to find the answers to Tommy's size and reach and whilst it had not all been one way traffic Ray was clearly behind after 12 rounds. However fighters do not find themselves involved in greatest of all time debates without having an ability and will to rescue a lost cause and between the 12th and 13th rounds Ray's trainer Angelo Dundee uttered the immortal advice "You're blowing it son, You're blowing it." With these words ringing in his ears Ray exploded into action in the 13th and nearly knocked Tommy through the ropes. Ray knew he had his man now and hit Tommy with everything he had in the 14th and refree Davey Pearl had little choice but to stop the fight and declare Ray the undisputed welterweight champion of the world.

After a couple more low key fihts Ray was to retire on medical grounds through a detached retina but this was to remain a temporary retirment. Legend has it Ray was in attendance with Michael J Fox watching middleweight legend Marvin Hagler defend his title against John Mugabi and he decided when watching Hagler he could beat him and he decided there and then to make a comeback against Haglersome three years after he had last stepped through the ropes. For any fighter to come back after three years is hard, to do it against a fighter as good as Hagler in a division you have never fought in is nigh on unprecedented and when a poll of 50 boxing experts was taken before the fight all but four picked Marvin most by KO such was the size of the task Ray faced.

Much has been written about this fight mostly debating who deserved the decision, for what my view is worth I have always felt the decision in Ray's favour is the correct one however whether you agree with the decision or otherwise one can only marvel at the tactics Ray used in the fight never giving Hagler a stationary target and moving yet still controlling the centre of the ring. Ray was now a three wei8ght world champion. Thsi fight very much represented the peak of Ray's career, he would fight on and would win more titles in more divisions (including winning the WBC supermiddle weight and lightheavyweight belts in the same fight!) but his form after the Hagler fight was never to hit the same heights again.

As anyone who has ever ventured to the boxing boards will know there are something of two camps on their with those who believe old time fighters are superior and those who believe (wrongly I might add) that modern fighters are better. There are few fighters who you will get universal agreement that each and everyone will agree is great and would have been great whatever era they would have found themselves in. Sugar Ray Leonard is one such fighter, he could deliver a punch just as well as he could take one, could fight as well defensively as offensively and could match anyone for heart, speed and guts. To even consider taking the nickname of the great Sugar Ray Robinson you have to be good, to deserve the name you have to be great, Ray Leonard deserved to be called Sugar Ray.

This is a tough group but I lumped for Serena and Dan Carter. Really wanted to vote for Sugar Ray but he just missed out.

Serena is the greatest female tennis player ever, and Dan Carter is one of the best players in the best Rugby nation ever.

Carter - great Rugby player but one of many
Serena - arguably the greatest female tennis player, close call with Margaret Court, Steffi Graf, Martina
SRL - top 5 all time boxer - gets my vote
Gretzky - far and away the greatest ice hockey player - might even be the most dominant sportsman in any sport at any time cf Don Bradman - gets my vote

Tough group- all arguably the best in their sports. Gretzky only really has Lemoux for company, so he gets a slot, then I've gone with Carter, possibly due to bias, but I think he stands out more than the other two in more competitive fields

this is where i struggle with greatest ever sports star, if were putting women and men on a level playing field not sure i can vote for a sports person who would get beat by any average male on the circuit. certainly would have a great shot in greatest female sports stars but similar to womens football and rugby the level of the sport, number of participants etc are all massively down on the male versions of the sports. not to dismiss what a great career shes had but there are males who have done similar in a much tougher version.

no real interest in ice hockey and while i know the names of gretzky, lemoux, fedorov etc. just cant give them the vote over leonard one of my favourite boxers and carter who will go down as one of if not the greatest rugby player of all time

compelling and rich wrote:this is where i struggle with greatest ever sports star, if were putting women and men on a level playing field not sure i can vote for a sports person who would get beat by any average male on the circuit. certainly would have a great shot in greatest female sports stars but similar to womens football and rugby the level of the sport, number of participants etc are all massively down on the male versions of the sports. not to dismiss what a great career shes had but there are males who have done similar in a much tougher version.

I think you need to judge the women on their own merit and try not to compare them to males. While you might be right about her being outdone by a male player its not strictly fair to use that as a barometer of judgement seeing as women only play against men in mixed doubles.

Its like saying you couldnt vote for Ronda Rousey as she would get killed by Frank Mir, its just unfair.

well mir's a heavyweight so probably not a great example, tj dillishaw is probably a better example as he's the same weight. and most people will be saying who

still think you have to lower the significance of women dominating a sport that is easy to dominant in though. becoming the best female footballer in the world is a hell of a lot easier than becoming the best male footballer in the world. serena fantastic female tennis player but plenty of males have done similar so they'll get the more credit from me

Again you're judging female against male which isnt fair. I'd wager that being the best female footballer is as relatively difficult as the best male footballer, just the overall standard isnt as high. You cant say 'well these three women are the best footballers in the world and compete against each other for that honour regularly but because they're not as good as Messi or Ronaldo its pointless' as the competition could be even more firece. You cant compare men and women when it comes to most sports as men will have the advantage 99 times out of 100.

Its also pretty disrespectful to alot of hard working sportswomen out there who strive to become the best in their field only to be written off because 'They're not as good as their male counterparts'.

it isnt simply down to males being better due to physical advantages, the participation levels in male sports are much much higher. more players over all means higher level of competition and as a result it is much harder to reach the highest level. in relative terms the third division of male football is still a very tough standard (something me or you have no chance of reaching), in female football its amateur level where anybody can play (i know ive seen it)

To be fair, I think compelling does to a degree have an argument in some sports, but tennis is probably the most egalitarian out there (maybe with athletics and swimming). Serena is right up there with the greatest female tennis players of all time, with Graf and Navratilova, so more than deserves her place in these discussions.

On this group, Leonard would generally only be lower end of top ten boxers at best, so misses out. Gretzky is undoubtedly the best of his sport, so gets an easy vote from me (I'd have him in the top 10 across all sports easily, possibly top 5, fighting it out with Bradman, Ali, Merckx, Federer, Phelps, Jordan, etc.).

Was a tough choice between Carter and Serena, who both have enhanced their cases a fair bit since we last had the HoF discussion. Went with Serena, just. Always difficult to rank rugby players as so many different positions, but think Serena would have the more global acclaim.

My take on the women vs men argument is much the same as comparing someone in the sport 50 years ago to someone now. It's hard to compare actual ability levels due to how sports change. Similarly, female sport is in infancy compared to progression of male sport.

MfC
I'd add gymnastics to your list of sports where there is and has historically been good enough competition for them to merit consideration in this type of poll.

Gretsky is the easy vote here - the best player the NHL has had (by the same sort of margin as Bradman or Merckx), and in a sport that has become increasingly international over the last 20 or so years.

Sugar Ray Leonard - definitely A great, but in the P4P stakes most of the boxing aficionados rank him down a bit, mainly because of the relatively small number of fights and the loss to Duran in their primes.

As noted above, bot Dan Carter and Serena Williams have enhanced their standing since the first GOAT poll - Carter by finally being at the helm as the All Blacks won the RWC,a nd Serena with another 2 years at the top of women's tennis.

My problem with voting for Carter is that for me while he would be my choice in the 10 shirt for the all time world XV, I'd certainly rate 3 or 4 guys ahead of him, including his AB contemporary Richie McCaw (also Lomu and Eales for sure, considering Johnno, Horan and even Campese).

Serena - has her detractors, and sometimes tennis has seemed to lack importance to her (although that's a criticism that can more fairly be levelled at Venus Williams), but her record if you include doubles is perhaps the best of any female tennis player (Navratilova would be her closest contender). In this company I think she merits my second vote.

I can see an argument for Serena Williams being the G.O.A.T. Womens tennis player but if she must be rated here against men, (all who by the way competed in contact sports) then she should be put up against Federer, and then we can have a conclusive finding.

For me Gretzky is the ice Hockey G.O.A.T. however he did very little on the International stage, Carter would have represented his country twice as many more times than Gretzky. plus Carter is the holder of the highest points scorer in his sport at world level.

Im  a  fan of Sugar Ray Leonard, however I dont think he fought any heavier than as a Light/heavy (might be wrong) and there is a very good reason for the different weight divisions in boxing,  you wouldnt want to have seen a Sugar Ray Leonard, in his mid twenties fight some one like a Mike Tyson in his mid twenties, the only outcome would be indictments for murder.