[solved]Hall of Fame 2015/6 - Round 1 Group B

Here is round two of this years Hall of Fame.

All polls will remain open for three days so make sure to vote ASAP for your favourites.

Yesterdays 1st round match can be found here - https://www.606v2.com/t61349-hall-of-fame-2015-6-round-1-group-a

Todays poll features stars from the world of Boxing, Formula 1, Rowing and Athletics

Please vote for your top two choices and let the best man/ woman win.

Your nominees are:

Sugar Ray Robinson
Ayrton Senna
Michael Johnson
Steve Redgrave

Tried to vote for two but unable to, so only one counted.

TY for changing

Any way, Michael Johnson was at the top for me and do not consider F1 a sport. So that left the original Sugar Ray or probably Britains greatest ever Olympian.

Sugar Ray Robinson, who is deemed the best pound for pound fighter of all time, though I wouldn't know, and Michael Johnson, who was a bit of a hero of mine in the 90's. The man kept on winning.

Redgrave was close, bearing in mind his medal haul. gaining them in a minority sport does count against him a little.

Had to be senna.

Can also only vote once but have gone for Johnson as I would class him as the most dominant track athlete I have seen and set a WR that has stood for 16 years and counting

McLaren wrote:Had to be senna.

Going by stats, he wasn't even the best driver!!!

Very very difficult choice, three absolute heroes of mine but ultimately Johnson lost out.

Robinson- He is without equal in boxing and was/is the greatest boxer to ever lace up a pair of gloves.
Redgrave- 5 consecutive gold medals in an endurance sport like Rowing is almost superhuman and it was all achieved whilst suffering from Ulcerative Colitis and Diabetes, THE greatest Olympian Britain has ever had.
Johnson- His 19.32 at Atlanta is my most abiding Athletics memory and a record I expected to never see broken, his running style, persona and attitude are without equal.
Senna- He drove a car quickly, not sporting prowess for me.

All three would have been my number one pick in the first group.

wow incredibly tough round. big fan of all four but ultimately i ended up going for johnsen and Robinson. perhaps not as much back then but f1 is still a lot about the car, and rowing suffers from being such a minority sport compared to being one of the best runners and boxers of all time

Its a shame this hasn't really taken off like the last one, if you look at the old posts 100+ replies was not untypical. Perhaps the lack of write ups is leading to lack of debate?

EVeryone is free to put forward there write ups!

I will see if I can dig out last years.

Sugar Ray Robinson- Boxing- Championed by superflyweight

Let’s start at the beginning for the man almost universally recognised as pound for pound, the greatest boxer who ever lived. Walker Smith Junior was born 3rd May 1921 and following his family's move to New York, started boxing in a local Harlem gym. At 14 he wanted to enter a tournament and in order to circumvent the age restrictions (the minimum age was 16) he borrowed his older friend's Amateur Athletic Union card. His friend's name was Ray Robinson. The "Sugar" (a reference to his "sweet style") came later but from the moment he borrowed his friend's identity, a legend was born.

Robinson quickly went about putting together an outstanding amateur C.V. eventually racking up a record of 85 wins with no defeats. 69 of those wins were via knockout and 40 of those came in the first round. He was Golden Gloves featherweight champion in 1939 and then lightweight champion in 1940.

Turning pro in 1940 at the age of just 19, Robinson quickly went about making a name for himself, comprehensively beating current lightweight champion, Sammy Angott (who had refused to put his belt on the line) in just his 21st fight and then twice defeating (the second via a stoppage) the experienced master of the dark arts and former welterweight champion, Fritzie Zivic. A few fights later he won an unanimous decision against future middleweight great, Jake La Motta who outweighed Sugar that night by almost 13lbs (two whole weight classes in today's fight scene). Robinson was no protected fighter and fights against Angott, Zivic and La Motta as well as other tough, experienced opponents (including an ageing Henry Armstrong who is often regarded as the second greatest boxer who ever lived), represents a tough induction for a young fighter who was a relative novice. Despite this tough induction, it wasn't until his 40th fight that Robinson tasted defeat, losing a decision in his second fight against La Motta who outweighed him by 16lbs that night.

How did Robinson react to that defeat? He went unbeaten for the next 8 years winning 91 fights in the process defeating La Motta another 4 times along the way. Across their 6 fights, La Motta (who was a top drawer and very tough middleweight who would go on to win the middleweight title from the great Marcel Cerdan) outweighed Robinson by an average of 12lbs.

During that run of 91 victories, Robinson eventually won the welterweight title in 1946 at the age of 25 (boxing politics (in the form of the notorious Mob run, International Boxing Club) had kept him away from the title). Having amassed a record of 75 wins, 1 draw and 1 defeat, Robinson was allowed to compete for the vacant welterweight world title, triumphing with a unanimous decision over Tommy Bell. Finally, the man everyone knew was the best welterweight on the planet, had the belt that was rightfully his. Robinson remained undefeated as welterweight champion until he vacated the belt in 1950. During his reign he notched up wins against fellow welterweight great and future champion, Kid Gavilan before increasing problems making the 147lbs weight limit had Sugar setting his sights on the middleweight division.

Robinson won the middleweight title from La Motta in the infamous Valentine's Day Massacre which features prominently in the film Raging Bull. La Motta was stopped in brutal fashion in the 13th (the only legitimate stoppage of the legendary granite chinned, La Motta in 95 fights) and Robinson was champion at a second weight. Robinson subsequently went on a valedictory tour of Europe (fighting in various European cities against European opponents) which by all accounts was little more than one long party. Robinson turned up in the UK slightly worse for wear and somewhat undercooked and lost his title to Britain's own Randy Turpin having been outpointed over 15 rounds. Robinson immediately won the title back from Turpin, stopping him in the 10th round when behind on the cards. Robinson then defended the title a further twice against future champion, Bobo Olsen and former champion Rocky Graziano.

Having successfully defended his middleweight title, Robinson immediately turned his attention to Joey Maxim’s light heavyweight title. Against a very fine light heavyweight in Maxim and operating in a division way above his welterweight peak, Robinson was well ahead on all of the cards when he failed to emerge for the 14th round due to heat exhaustion. The fight had been held outdoors at Yankee Stadium in New York in sweltering heat and humidity and in the end it proved too much for Sugar. Following that defeat, Robinson immediately announced his first retirement from the sport.

Robinson stayed retired for 2 and a ½ years before returning at middleweight to take the title back from Bobo Olsen (via a 2nd round knockout) at the age of 34. His form on his return was patchy – he would lose the title three times (regaining it twice) but it was in this run of fights that contained Robinson’s greatest and perhaps most famous moment in the ring. At the age of 35 and up against the formidable champion Gene Fullmer (a man who had already beaten Robinson convincingly in their previous fight), Robinson was just about holding his own and then in the 5th round unleashed what many consider to be the greatest knockout punch of all time. Robinson hit Fullmer with a lightning quick left hook to the jaw which sent Gene plummeting to the floor. The fight was over in an instant and Robinson was middleweight champion for the fourth time. How good was the punch? Judge for yourself in the video below and consider that Fullmer had never been off his feet in any fight until that point and was considered iron jawed. Here’s what Fullmer had to say about it – “I still don’t know anything about the punch except I watched it on movies a number of times. The first thing I knew, I was standing up. I asked my manager, ‘What happened?’ and he said, ‘They counted ten.’”

Robinson would lose and win back the title once more and then would fail in a couple of more title challenges. However, he was long past his best by this point and pushing 40. Unfortunately Robinson (driven by a need to keep earning money) would fight on for many more years and would tarnish his record by losing to men who would not have been fit to get in the ring with him at his peak. This should not detract from how good he was. If we consider him only at his peak (generally recognised as being everything up to , but not including the Joey Maxim fight), he amassed a record of 128 wins, 1 draw and 2 defeats. Just incredible numbers made more incredible by the names on his record. Robinson defeated 10 Hall of Famer’s in his career; Jake Lamotta, Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, Kid Gavilan, Rocky Graziano, Randy Turpin, Gene Fullmer and Carmen Basilio.

The following description of Robinson is by Monte Cox and is taken from the excellent website “Cox’s Corner” and it describes Robinson better than I ever could:

“What other fighter could beat you more ways than could Sugar Ray Robinson? Ray could out box boxers and out punch punchers. He could do it inside or outside, going forward or backward. Ray could do it with his powerful left hook as he did against Gene Fullmer or with his perfect straight right as he did against Rocky Graziano. Joe Louis could throw triple left hooks with speed, power and accuracy that could destroy a man. Robinson could throw triple left hooks and triple right hooks that could do the same. Who else could do that and maintain frightening power?... Ray Robinson was the archetype of a complete fighter. If one combines his polished, grand boxing style with his powerful punching and cast iron chin with a will to win unsurpassed in the annals of boxing one has a perfect fighter.

“To sum it up, Robinson was the consummate professional fighter who possessed every physical asset; speed, agility, mobility, and tremendous punching power. He rates among a select few of the all time greats who could defeat fighters using their own best assets against them. Robinson, a true sharpshooter, easily rates among the best pound for pound punchers in history. Robinson is possibly the greatest combination puncher of all time. His quality of opposition is among the top five. Ray’s peak won-loss record is among the top three. Ray’s overall ring record and accomplishments also rate among the top three. Robinson is among the top five of all time in the category of longevity. Ray had all the intangibles, great experience, killer instinct, a tremendous chin and heart.”

Let’s finish by looking at what his fellow greats had to say about him:

“Someone once said there was a comparison between Sugar Ray Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson. Believe me, there's no comparison. Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest."
Sugar Ray Leonard

“The king, the master, my idol.”
“That man was beautiful. Timing, speed, reflexes, rhythm, his body, everything was beautiful. And to me, still, I would say pound for pound...I'd say I'm the greatest heavyweight of all time, but pound for pound, I still say Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest of all time.”
Muhammad Ali

Quite simply, Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest boxer who ever lived and operated the peak of one of the toughest sports for a period of more than 20 years. He is regarded as far and away the greatest welterweight who ever lived (ahead of men like Armstrong, Sugar Ray Leonard, Tommy Hearns and Jose Naploles) and most observers have him in their top 5 middleweights. He had great talent, he faced and beat the best and he reigned at the top for an incredible period of time. In short, he was the complete sportsman!

Steve Redgrave- Rowing- Championed by- ChequeredJersey

One of the key features, in my opinion, for the GOAT in all sports is that a candidate must transcend his sport and attain significance and influence in the lives of people beyond the hard-core sporting fan-base. They should also attain dominance within their own sport. Many sportsmen (this term includes women too) are talented, some enough that they stand out above their peers. Far fewer stand out across the eras of a sport. Of these, even fewer are household names, celebrities or national icons especially in the ‘less popular sports’. Other sportsmen garner fame and celebrity status, but few of these can say they achieved unique accomplishments for sporting reasons. Those that fit into both categories and also manage to be uniquely great across a type of sport, not merely their own specialty, are incredibly rare. Sir Steven Geoffrey Redgrave, CBE, deputy lieutenant, is one of these. I will endeavour to show how in this article. Sorry that it’s a bit long, I got carried away…

If you ask a member of the British public to name an Olympian, chances are Redgrave will be near the top of the list. If you ask them to name a rower, I’d be amazed if he weren’t. He remains the only person to win 5 Gold Olympic Medals in 5 consecutive games in an endurance sport (as well as a solitary Bronze) and he adds 9 Gold, 2 Silver and 1 Bronze World Championship Medals from 1986-99 to that tally. He won his first Gold at age 22 and his last at 38, 16 years of Olympic domination in a sport that is based on physical strength and fitness, attributes that for a man peak in one’s mid-twenties. During the majority of that time, Redgrave’s crews were expected to win every race they entered and in a sport that has a number of strong competitive nations and is subject to conditions and how the crew clicks and other variables they nearly did win every race for nearly 20 years.

Non-internationally, he won different categories at Henley Royal Regatta, the premier sprint racing rowing race in the world, 21 times, the last one at age 39. These events ranged from sweep (one bladed) to scull (two oars) and from singles on his own to coxed 4s with a number of partners, as were his Olympic medals. The only constant was Redgrave. He also represented England in the 1986 Commonwealth games where he won 3 Golds in different races. I don’t know how many times he won the premier Head (long distance) racing event in the world, the Head of the River Race on the Thames, but he certainly did win it with Leander VIII and IV several times as well as his sprint victories listed here.

Most rowers specialise at rowing on one side of the boat – Bowside (starboard, or the right side of the boat from the cox’ point of view) or Strokeside (port). As well as sculling with 2 oars, Redgrave rowed both Bow and Strokeside and won Olympic Gold on both sides, testament to his technical proficiency (something very underappreciated by lay people regarding rowing) not just his strength. He was also renowned as a tactician and made the calls in his coxless crews and knew exactly when to wait and when to push another crew.
The only thing missing from his portfolio is a Boat Race victory, due to ineligibility.

He was also World indoor rowing champion (on a ergometric rowing machine) in 1990 and was British bobsleighing Champion and has run several London Marathons for charity. He did all of this with Ulcerative Colitis and Diabetes Mellitus Type 1, both chronic and debilitating diseases with severe health effects, both worse under the stress of severe physical exertion which rowing training entails more than most existent activities.

These are his considerable achievements within sport. Related to these, he has been BBC Sports Personality of the Year, won a Knighthood and a CBE from the Queen, a special pin from the Olympic Committee for winning 5 Golds in consecutive Games, a Thomas Keller Medal from the International Rowing Federation for his Outstanding International Career, has Carried the Olympic Torch in the Olympic Stadium at 2012 London, been the UK’s Olympic Flag bearer in 1992 and ’96, won Celebrity Gladiators, a BBC Sports Lifetime Achievement Award. He has set up rowing academies in India, raised millions of pounds for Charity, is an ambassador for Fairtrade and Founder and President of the Steve Redgrave Trust, and the vice-president of Diabetes UK and involved in many other charities. He is now Sports Legacy Champion and a Member of Sports Relief’s Steering Committee. The President of British Rowing, a Steward of Henley Royal Regatta and Vice President of the British Olympic Association and now a decade after his retirement is still the face of Rowing.

Since his retirement he has done so much for Sport and charity. He is a British legend who represents his country now as an ambassador. He epitomises determination, pushing oneself beyond the limit and the honour of representing one’s country. Inside his sport he has been a master and a mentor and outside of it a Champion for all the qualities we get from playing sport and all the emotion we suffer through spectating it. He is surely the inspiration for so many rowers, so many British sportspeople across every sport. He has touched many lives through the greatest of his achievements, people crying with him and for him. For all this, I propose Sir Steve Redgrave as the GOAT.

Michael Johnson- Athletics- Champion by 88chris05

I was eight years old in 1996 and, as a result, the Atlanta Games of that year are the first Olympic Games I can remember properly - and for any sports fan, that's a serious footnote in your memory. It says much about the greatness of the man I'm writing about here that, whenever I think back to that summer of 1996 and the Olympics, the first thing to enter my head is never the Games themselves, and nor is it a collection of moments. Instead, it's just one name which crops up instantly - Michael Johnson.

It took some nerve - or, you might even say, some well-placed arrogance - to wear those golden running spikes, and it must also have taken a large helping of self-belief and stubbornness to ignore the plethora of coaches who had told him right throughout his college and junior career to abandon his unusual 'duck' style of running in favour of the traditional high knee lift, long strides and pumping arms which we usually associate with sprinting. But both the running spikes and that unique style had me hooked from 1996 onwards and I became determined to find out all I could about the man who came away with three gold medals on the track from those Games.

With the emergence of Usain Bolt in recent times, it's easy to forget that, just ten to fifteen years earlier, there was one man on the track who blew everyone's mind and redefined the parameters just as much as the brilliant Jamaican. In fact, I'd argue that Johnson, in many ways, redefined them even more than Bolt has.

For starters, his dominance of the 400m throughout the nineties must be right up there with the greatest spells of dominance in any one event in history. Before Johnson, whose incredible feats earned him the nickname 'Superman', no man had ever won the 400m title at back to back Olympics. Johnson did this at a canter, taking the gold medal in the one lap event at Atlanta in '96 and at Sydney four years later. He won four successive world titles at that same distance, too, from 1993 right up until 1999. His fifty-four consecutive 'finals' wins in the 400m is, of course, a record - so far ahead of his peers in that event is he, that comparisons are pretty pointless.

But there were more notable 'firsts' in Johnson's career. The 100m-200m double is, of course, a rare achievement, the sort which only the giants of sporting history (Owens, Lewis, Bolt etc) have managed. But do you know what's been an even rarer achievement in men's track and field? The 200m-400m double. Because once more, before this remarkable Texan came along, absolutely nobody had managed to win the two events together at the Olympics - or at any major championships, for that matter. Not content with making history once by doing so at the 1995 World Championships in Gothenburg, Johnson made it two 'doubles' in as many years at the following summer's Olympics. And which man has replicated this feat since? That's right - absolutely none of them.

Usain Bolt's double of the 100m-200m (or even his 'double double' of doing the 100m-200m act at two successive Olympics, a feat which he controversially shares with Carl Lewis) make him one of a few, but Johnson's achievements really do make him one of a kind.

I think it's key to remember, also, that the 400m takes on a very different dynamic to the shorter sprints. Unlike the 100m or the 200m, the 400m discipline takes a different type of training, a large amount of kidology and tactics. There is no element of just running flat out as fast as you can; pacing yourself, the concept of even-paced running, adapting to running two bends ect all make it a different ball game. Genuinely, I feel that Johnson's ability to adapt so perfectly to both events make him a serious contender to be considered the finest track athlete the world has ever seen.

Johnsons' gold medal tally in the 200m (two World Championships, one Olympics) doesn't read quite as staggeringly (but is still only surpassed by a certain Mr Bolt, mind you!) but, as I mentioned above, I genuinely think that Johnson expanded the ideas of what was possible in this event more than anyone else has thus far in his own way. In track and field, particularly in the sprints, you seldom see a world record which lasts more than three or four years, generally speaking. It's amazing what the human body can do when you're setting its every faculty towards a certain mark - for instance, Roger Bannister's four minute mile in 1954 was considered superhuman and, almost, a case of someone doing the impossible, and yet it lasted as a world record for a mere six weeks.

So then, let's keep in mind that Pietro Mennea's 200m world record of 19.72 seconds had stood for a whole seventeen years by 1996, remarkable in a sport which is pitted so often against the clock. At the Olympic trials that year, Johnson edged it out with a 19.66, a fantastic feat in itself, but what he did in the Olympics themselves in that event will stay with me forever. Even as an eight year old, I knew I was watching something remarkable. But it's only looking back that I can fully appreciate the magnitude of Johnson's gold medal winning performance.

Johnson won the gold in a staggering 19.32 seconds, a whole .34 of a second ahead of his own personal best (by an absolute mile the most that anyone has improved a short sprint record since the introduction of electronic timing in the sixties), and .36 ahead of second-placed Frankie Fredericks who, just weeks earlier, had beaten Johnson and was fancied by many to do so again (a shell-shocked Fredericks remarked after the race, "If I'd have known that Michael was going to run 19.32, I wouldn't have bothered showing up."). Ato Boldon, who took the bronze medal, went to Johnson after the race and bowed, later commenting that Johnson's race that night was "fifty years ahead of its time."

Now, I know what you're all thinking. Rather than fifty, the record 'only' lasted for twelve years (still a hell of a long time by track and field standards, of course) before Usain Bolt narrowly beat it with his wonderful 19.30 in the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. But as I said before, it's amazing what can be done by the human body when its sole focus is on a time which you have the luxury of shooting for. Basically, if someone can run a 19.32, you know that it's a real possibility and, in many ways, inevitable that someone can eventually go 19.30 or better, like Bolt has. Edging a world record out like that is the norm.

However, totally obliterating one like Johnson did most certainly isn't. With Mennea's 19.72 came the realisation that humans could and eventually would be running in the 19.6 bracket. With Johnson's 19.66 three months before Atlanta came the realisation that maybe, just maybe, we could see a high 19.5 time in our lifespan if we were lucky. Absolutely nobody, however, would have ever dared conjour up the the thought of a man eating up 200m of track in a low 19.3 time. It boggled the mind, tore up all logic and left a world-wide audience, including BBC commentator David Coleman, saying "this man surely isn't human!"

When Bolt broke the 200m world record, there were loud cheers in my house. However, when Johnson ran that 19.32 in Atlanta, there was nothing but a stunned silence, followed by a series of glances which seemd to be asking, 'Did I really just see that?'

And of course, Johnson's 400m world record still remains intact at 43.18 seconds, despite thirteen and a half years having passed since he finally set it at the 1999 World Championships in Seville. Again, it's worth noting that, in track and field, world records that can last a decade or more come at a premium. From the top of my head, I do believe that Michael Johnson is the only man to have set a world record lasting a decade or longer in two individual events since the introduction of electronic timing, and it says a hell of a lot about the man's accomplishments that you have to scroll a fair way down his CV to find a fact as impressive as that!

In all, Johnson stepped on to a podium to collect thirteen medals at either the Olympic Games or World Championships during his career - and ever single one of them was gold.

And as if his towering accomplishments weren't enough, he still manged to show what sportsmanship should be all about in 2008 when, after his relay team mate Antonio Pettigrew admitted under oath that he had used performance enhancing substances throughout the late nineties and early twenty-first century, Johnson voluntarily returned his Gold medal won with Pettigrew and two others in the 4x400m relay at the Sydney Olympics of 2000. In an age where far too many are adopting a relaxed attitude to doping in sport, Johnson's gesture, to me at least, added to his greatness even more, if that were at all possible.

It's a terrible shame that, a certain Mr Carl Lewis aside, track and field athletes have often struggled to receive their dues over in the States, because in Michael Johnson they really did have one of the finest sportsman to have graced the planet. To me, Johnson is everything a sporting great should be.

Johnson and Robinson for me. Robinson is the consensus best boxer of all time P4P, while Johnson's feats in athletics were simply amazing. Redgrave was also amazing, but in a more minority and team sport, so just misses out.

Senna's a tricky one, a career tragically cut short, but in sheer statistical terms he doesn't stack up to the other three. Yes F1 is a particularly tricky sport to judge, due to the reliance on machinery, and Senna ranks highly whenever ATG F1 drivers are mentioned, but for me he just falls a bit behind the other three.

PS: not getting into a debate about what constitutes a "sport", for me all athletes in these debates shall be considered sportsmen, end of. Makes things easier.

Four highly worthy contenders, but for me SRR and Johnson just edge it.

I'm not a fan of modern boxing, but think I would have been of the old timers - the idea of fighting on pretty much a monthly basis and taking on all comers makes it much more a sport than the current pantomime. And in that era, Robinson, by all accounts, stands above all others.

Johnson - Agree with the write-up comment that him running 19.32s for the 200m in Atlanta was just one of those moments where you look to whoever is in the room with you in incredulity. Sprint records get trimmed down, not have huge chunks knocked off. OK, Bolt has run quicker in Beijing 2008, but what I found interesting was that, unlike his 100m record including showboating, UB ran right through the line and only nicked the record by 0.02s. And Bolt is a physiological freak...

Redgrave - fantastic Olympian and at the top of his sport for years, but a notch down simply because rowing is a minority sport.

Senna - By most accounts, the most gifted driver of the modern era, and hugely highly rated by F1 fans generally. My issue is that when looked at in the cold light of day, his record seems to fall a little short - at the time of his death he held the record for the most pole positions, but his contemporary and rival Alain Prost held the record for winning most races and had more world titles. Senna was more exciting and more brilliant, but Prost was more calculating and consistent (and I think is hugely under-rated). Basically, Senna was the faster driver, but made more mistakes and broke more cars. Still brilliant, but when set against the legends of other sports we are looking at fine margins, and for me Senna's career record isn't quite there.

Very difficult choice for me. Massive amount of talent here.
I'm a big F1 fan and Senna was a class act and widely regarded as the most talented driver ever but I can't vote for him against the other 3 due to the different "sports" they competed in.
Sugar Ray Robinson also widely regarded as the best in his field but at the end of the day I just don't watch boxing enough to warrant me voting for him.
So I went with -
Redgrave - An unbelievable achievement and fantastic Olympian.
Johnson - Massively ahead of others in his field and a particular hero of mine growing up.

VTR wrote:Its a shame this hasn't really taken off like the last one, if you look at the old posts 100+ replies was not untypical. Perhaps the lack of write ups is leading to lack of debate?

Do most posters know this is taking place? Has there been any big announcement? I only stumbled across the latest threads by chance yesterday. Shame if it is passing some people by as the write ups are top notch.

Never seen the love for Steve Redgrave. His legacy is based on longevity rather than superior sporting ability. He's never had to stand (or sit in his case) on his own and win for himself. He's just a team player. Daley Thompson had it right about him in saying something along the lines of him not even being the best rower in his own boat for the most part. Not only that, rowing is extremely marginalised as a sport.

Steve Redgrave should only be discussed in a "best rower" debate. He doesn't belong on the top table of sporting greats.