[solved]Hall of Fame 2015/6 - Round 1 Group C

Here is round three of this years Hall of Fame.

All polls will remain open for three days so make sure to vote ASAP for your favourites.

The first two 1st round match can be found here -

https://www.606v2.com/t61349-hall-of-fame-2015-6-round-1-group-a

https://www.606v2.com/t61376-hall-of-fame-2015-6-round-1-group-b

Todays poll features stars from the world of Rugby, Tennis, Swimming and Athletics

Please vote for your top two choices and let the best man/ woman win.

Your nominees are:

Gareth Edwards
Michael Phelps
Billy Jean King
Carl Lewis

Michael Phelps- Swimming- Championed by 88chris05

There probably aren't enough superlatives in a dictionary to fully explain the greatness of Michael Phelps, or just how much he's achieved in his professional swimming career. I'll make my agenda clear early on - if Phelps doesn't make it to the advanced stages (let's just say, last eight or better) of this process, then I honestly would consider it a v2 travesty. If anyone reading this isn't a great fan of swimming, then don't fret - you don't need to be in order to gain an understanding of some sort of Phelps' accomplishments, as they're so glaring and awe-inspiring. So I'll do my best to give a reasonable explanation of them here.

Unless you paid absolutely no attention to the London 2012 Olympic Games, you'll know that, during the Games, Phelps became the most decorated Olympian of all time, with his London haul of four gold and two silver medals bringing his overall tally to twenty-two (a staggering eighteen gold, two silver and two bronze, spanning the Athens Games of 2004, the Beijing Games of 2008 and last year's London edition). This would be a damn good time for me to dispel and irksome myth, namely this idea I've seen thrown about that Phelps only became the most decorated Olympian of them all because there are "loads of medals in swimming" and / or because "it's easy to win them in that sport." First off, as I'll explain a little further down, there's nothing remotely easy about swimming and secondly, you'll find that, of the top ten most prolific Olympic medal winners in history, Phelps is the only swimmer amongst them. It should also be noted that Phelps is the owner of eleven individual golds in the Olympics (thirteen individual medals of all colours), more than any other man or woman in history - once again, this serves to dim the off-base talk suggesting that relay medals have given an over-inflated view of Phelps' achievements.

On top of that, there's thirty-four World Championship medals (a record), twenty-six of them being gold (a record), seven 'World Swimmer of the Year' titles (a record), a world record set at the tender age of fifteen years and nine months (a record), thirty-nine world records in all (a record), as well as becoming, in 2008, the only swimmer ever to win the coveted 'Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year' award.

Some CV: some athlete.

However, those numbers alone still can't fully convey how utterly dominant Phelps has been within his field, and nor can they give full context to his brilliance.

To me, even more than his medal collection, what sets Phelps apart is his unbelievable desire to test himself and take on new challengers, no matter how daunting they may be. By 2004, Phelps had already established himself as the most complete and best all-round swimmer on the planet at that time, with four gold medals and two silvers at the previous year's World Championships. By now, Phelps had established himself as being completely dominant in the 200m individual medley, 400m individual medley and also the 200m backstroke, and held the world record in all of these events. He was also the silver medal winner in the 100m butterfly. Let's remember here, before we get too far in, that all but a very select few swimmers spend their whole career concentrating and excelling in just one specialist event.

These were the events he'd been training for and participating in all of his career thus far, and it would have been easy for him to have stayed within these confines (although it was already one hell of a hectic schedule!) and remain undefeated throughout the 2004 Olympics. However, Phelps wanted to try and do the impossible; eclipse Mark Spitz's feat of seven golds in one Games in the 1972 Munich Olympics, and to do that meant adding the 200m freestyle to his schedule.

In that event, Phelps had to settle for a bronze medal, trailing in behind Australian legend Ian Thorpe and also Holland's Pieter Van Den Hoogenband. But the point is, a bronze in the 200m freestyle was still a remarkable feat - Thorpe and Van Den Hoogenband were the two preeminent freestylers of that era, and also the two fastest ever over that distance. Phelps, in comparison, had never even taken a stab at that discipline before Athens. It's worth noting that, after Phelps had dominated him at the 200m individual medley event at the 2003 World Championships, Thorpe never ventured in to one of Phelps' signature events again. However, the nineteen year old Phelps vowed to carry on until he became the world's best freestyler, to go along with being the world's best in the butterfly and medleys. Keep in mind that, at the time, most observers felt that this was a truly unreachable goal. Nevertheless, Phelps was the most successful athlete of the Games, narrowly falling short of Spitz's seven golds but still scooping up six golds (four of which came in individual events, equalling Spitz in that regard) and two bronzes.

His dominance in the butterly and medleys assured (he completed the 100m-200m double and the 200m-400m double in those events respectively in Athens), Phelps, good to his word, then set his sights on Thorpe's 200m freestyle world record (thought to be the best record in men's swimming at the time) of 1 minute 44.06 seconds, edging it out at the 2007 World Championships with a 1 minute 43.86 and then totally dismantling it with a 1 minute 42.96 clocking in winning the 200m freestyle gold at the 2008 Beijing Games.

I mean seriously, come on - he's not even meant to be a freestyler!

Almost as a bit of fun, Phelps even tried his hand at the backstroke in 2006, an event in which he was even less experienced and trained in than the freestyle. At the Pan Pacific championships that year, he won the silver medal in the 200m backstroke event. It was the only time he ever competed in backstroke at a major championship but, a year later, he showed his hand when he gave the discipline another whirl at the US Nationals; incredibly, he clocked the third fastest time ever recorded in the 200m backstroke, and went one better in the 100m, coming up with the second best time ever, just 0.03 seconds off the world record for the event. That a part-time (at best) backstroker could, almost at the drop of a hat, produce such performances in his weakest event, all while dominating the butterfly, medleys and freestyle (2007 had been the year in which Phelps scooped seven golds in seven events at the World Championships, lest we forget) is way beyond remarkable. I don't think there are sufficient words for it, in fact.

And then, of course, came the most successful Olympic campaign ever in Beijing in 2008, as Phelps took eight gold medals in eight events (seven of them in world record time, the other 'only' an Olympic record), eclipsing Spitz's aforementioned seven. His five individual golds at the meet (400m individual medley, 200m freestyle, 200m butterfly, 200m individual medley and 100m butterfly) also equaled the record for the most individual golds won in a single Olympics.

After the Games, a debate raged on about who was the stand out performer and / or biggest star of the Beijing Olympics - Phelps, or the incredible Jamaican track star Usain Bolt, who set world records in winning gold in the 100m, 200m and 4x100m sprints. Well, due to track and field's popularity and his telegenic personality (a contrast to the quiet, reserved Phelps), Bolt was the star of Beijing. But was he the greatest performer of the Games, as many claimed? Absolutely not. Phelps was. The variety of his schedule is scary. Ian Thorpe won nine Olympic medals, which is fantastic, of course. But all of them were in freestyle. Phelps' medals came in freestyle, butterfly and medley - to even compare, I honestly think that Bolt would have needed to add long jump to his arsenal and won the gold in that event, and / or perhaps a longer sprint such as the 400m.

After the eight golds of Beijing it was, naturally, impossible for Phelps to go beyond what he'd already done, however the medals continued to flow right up until his retirement after London 2012; five golds and one silver at the 2009 World Championships, four golds, two silvers and one bronze at the 2011 World Championships and then, to put the seal on his career, those four golds and two silvers in London.

Not only does Phelps boast unrivalled diversity and variety in the pool, then, but he also has insane fitness and unbelievable longevity to bolster his claim of being the greatest sportsperson of them all.

Take his Beijing feats, for example; to collect his eight gold medals, Phelps had to complete seventeen races in one week, what with the qualification rounds before the finals. While he was doing this across the past three Olympics, he often had rivals awaiting him near the end of the week - rivals who competed in just one specialty event and, having nothing like the work load of Phelps, would have been rubbing their hands together watching him fatigue himself. Milorad Cavic, a world champion over the 50m butterfly (and a former world record holder over the 100m distance) was awaiting Phelps in the 100m butterfy final in Beijing. How much fresher and less fatigued he must have been than Phelps at that stage was staggering - he'd dropped the 200m butterfly in order to maximise his chances of upsetting Phelps over the shorter course, and Phelps had already collected six gold medals that week. And yet, Phelps was still able to claim the gold in what was, without doubt, the greatest race I've ever seen in the pool.

Once more, to consistently be able to race across so many different disciplines for a week and then, at the end of it, be able to beat world-class specialists at their best event and after they've basically spent a week resting in comparison is a true mark of Phelps' ridiculous talent, and also his wonderful winning mentality.

What's more, swimming is a hard sport to stay at the top of, and seldom do its top practicioners produce anything like their best after their mid twenties. Before Phelps came along, no man in history had ever managed to win the same event at three successive Olympics in the pool, and many observers were wondering if the 'threepeat' was indeed possible at all, given how short a swimmer's peak is. Step forward Mr. Phelps, who made history at London 2012 by becoming the first man ever to do this, taking gold in the 200m individual medley (ahead of his great rival Ryan Lochte) to go along with the golds he took in that same event in 2004 and 2008. Not content with making history once, less than twenty-four hours later he was at it again, winning the final of the 100m butterfly (the last individual race of his career), turning a never done before threepeat in to a double threepeat.

Typical Phelps, really - nobody ever did it, and then he goes and does it twice at the same Olympics! It's just an outrageously fabulous achievement. And, for the third successive Olympics, Phelps took home more medals than any other athlete of the Games, regardless of discipline.

There have been some great all-rounders in sport; Gary Sobers in cricket, Frank Riijkaard in football - but none of them have been as complete across so many areas as Michael Phelps has been. If you wanted to be pedantic, then you could argue that Phelps lacks Usain Bolt's irrepressible star quality, or that he's not at the centre of the dreams of the world's youngsters the way that Lionel Messi is. But swimming is a sport which has grown immensely in participation levels, both amatuer and professional, in the past two decades, as well as being a truly demanding and punishing one in which incredible focus, dedication and a great deal of God-given talent are all neccessities. And Michael Phelps has been, to put it mildly, the Don Bradman of swimming. In many ways, in fact, you could argue that the 'Baltimore Bullett' has dominated his own field to an even greater extent than Bradman dominated his.

Not the greatest sporting personality, but as a sportsman in the purest form, and a true freak of nature, Phelps simply must be amongst the very, very elite of all time. Despite the length of this article, I still don't think I've done him full justice - that's how highly I think of Michael Phelps, unquestionably the greatest swimmer and most successful Olympian to ever walk the planet.

Gareth Edwards- Rugby- Champion by dummy_half

The facts - Wales scrum half 53 times between 1967 and 1978, scoring 20 tries. British and Irish Lions scrum half in 1971 and 1974, in successful tours to New Zealand and South Africa.

It is never easy to pick who is the greatest rugby player of all time - different requirements for specialist positions and the changes to the game following the introduction of professionalism make comparisons troublesome. However, Gareth Edwards is one name that always makes the discussion, and indeed he was voted the best rugby player of all time in a 2003 Ruugby World poll of present and former international players, and Will Carling named him the #1 in his list of 50 greatest players in 2007.

The Wales team of the 70s, even for this Englishman, is a team of legends. The Pontypool front row, Merv the Swerve Davies, Prince Barry John, Phil Bennett, Gerald Davies, JPR Williams. However, the collossus standing over all of them was Edwards. First capped at 19 and then playing the next 53 Wales internationals - never injured, never dropped and Wales's youngest ever captain. In his twelve year international career, Wales won the 5 Nations Championship 7 times. Sadly, at the time there was no rugby world cup to allow this Wales team to be regularly tested against the best the southern hemisphere had to offer - judging from how well the Welsh-dominated Lions did in New Zealand in 1971, they'd have had a good chance - the only British team even close to their legacy is the England team of 2000-2003, and they didn't dominate for anywhere near the same length of time.

Edwards was a talented youngster, given a scholarship to Millfields school where he excelled at football (even signing for Swansea City at 16), gymnastics and athletics as well as rugby. However, as a South Wales boy, it was always rugby that was closest to his heart.

Traditionally, scrum half is a very technical position, with the ability to pass the ball fast and accurately and to kick well under pressure are pre-requisites. Edwards had these attributes, but he had more also. The strength and tenacity of a back row forward meant he could dig the ball out of rucks and mauls and was prepared to carry the ball himself into the heavy traffic around the breakdown, plus while most scrum halfs of the time were defensive liabilities, he never shirked the tackling duties. Even more importantly, he was fast - as quick as most wingers, and it was this pace that saw his most famous moment, finishing off 'That Try' for the Barbarians against New Zealand in 1973.

I'm sure most of you have seen it - All Blacks wing Brian Williams kicks the ball across to near the Baa-Baas posts, where Phil Bennett retrieves and sidesteps 3 pursuers before passing to JPR Williams. Williams stands up under a high tackle and off-loads to Pullen, still in the defensive 22. Pullen, Dawes, David and Quinnell carry the ball forwards to just over the half way line, progressively passing towards the left touchline. Quinnell throws a one-handed pass aimed at his winger, but a faster-running Edwards 'intercepts' and sprints the remaining 40m to score in the corner. All this in the first 3 minutes of the most entertaining rugby match ever played.

The final words I leave to Will Carling, in summing up Edwards:

"He was a supreme athlete with supreme skills, the complete package. He played in the 1970s, but, if he played now, he would still be the best. He was outstanding at running, passing, kicking and reading the game. He sits astride the whole of rugby as the ultimate athlete on the pitch".

I think you have to go Phelps really here, there's not much else I can say when it was so well summarised above. I think when you dominate the sport in which he has done you have very few challengers.

I then went for Carl Lewis, 10 Olympic medals, 9 of which are gold, a world record breaker, including one that still stands today and generally considered one of the best athletes of all time.

Lewis is the only one worthy of going through here and even then that comes with a big disclaimer or two.

Lewis and Phelps. Both have won shed loads of Olympic medals, over a long period.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Lewis is the only one worthy of going through here and even then that comes with a big disclaimer or two.

Do we need to beat around the bush with respect to his drug testing issues? I thought it was on public record now that US officials covered up numerous failed drug tests by him at Olympic trials.

And why is Phelps not worthy?

gone with most here with phelps and lewis

Gone with Phelps and Edwards.

Phelps is arguably the greatest Olympian of all time, his dominance over several different strokes was pretty amazing.

Edwards is also up there with the greatest ever rugby players, tough though that debate is, with the very different positions, and indeed eras.

Lewis would probably have taken my second vote ahead of Edwards, but for the drug issues. Can't just ignore those, sorry.

King is a level below in pure sporting terms, she wouldn't be in the top 3 of all-time female tennis players, and possibly not top 5. Obviously there were her influences outside sports in the movement for black people's rights, but in this case it's not enough to bump her up for me.

Disappointed James Haskell isn't there instead of Gareth Edwards. So, given no choice, I voted for Edwards.

doc g

Surely you've been on the sauce... Haskell as the greatest RU player? Ridiculous. Surely that honour has to go to Sam Burgess?

More seriously, based purely on sporting records, Phelps and Lewis achieved more than Edwards and BJK.

Phelps may have had a few dodgy moments as a person (two driving under the influence convictions and a photo of him smoking probably dope), but generally seems well liked by his contemporaries and undoubtedly has been a he star of the last decade or so. Using medal and title counts as a comparison between sports is a fruitless tack - swimmers undoubtedly have the potential to win more events at an Olympics than (say) a track and field athlete (and even moreso someone restricted to one weight category in boxing or weight lifting), and frequently have a longer career than someone like a gymnast, who could win a handful in a single games. However, Phelps holds records both for golds at individual Olympics and for total number of golds and overall medals won, the latter by a margin bordering on Bradmanesque. There can be no doubt about his greatness relative to his field.

As with others, I have my doubts about the legitimacy of Lewis's performances - The Santa Monica Track Club sprinters were definitely taking something as the US 88 Olympic Trials. Maybe the explanation is legitimate and it was a Chinese herbal thing that led to low dose ephedrine and pseudo ephedrine test failures; silly to take it but not the crime of the century. On the other hand, if these were the result of intentional doping (for me more likely), it seriously casts a shadow over Lewis's achievements as the 'clean' guy against Ben Johnson et al.

I think my Edwards write up says all I want - undoubtedly a great from a British perspective, but a bit difficult to put in context against more global sports.

BJK - I don't think merits consideration purely on sporting prowess. Probably not even in the top 5 women tennis players. Was though of huge significance in growing the game in the early years of professionalism.

My problem with swimmers is that they can win so many medals at each Olympics. A sprint swimmer can do 100m and 200m in four strokes plus medley and fours relays - that's 13 available. Compare that to a rower (eg Steve Redgrave) who could only go for one every 4 years. You obviously have to be very good though!

no specialist breaststroker would be competitive at other strokes TBH, except maybe the very short distances - but then, 50 breaststroke isn't swum at the Olympics in any case. While there are a few similarities between butterfly and freestyle, and even fewer with backstroke, breaststroke is very much a specialist stroke. It would also be rare for an all round swimmer (like Phelps, Lochte, etc.) to be competitive at 100 freestyle, which is more of a sprint.

Not disagreeing with the general argument, which is that swimmers have more events to compete at than others, but there's still a huge amount of skill to win so many diverse events as Phelps did.