Davis Cup Final Live Thread

[Henman Bill]

First topic message reminder :

Well at one stage it was in doubt due to terrorism, that seems to have faded away and looks like it's going ahead. The rest of this article courtesy of BBC:

Davis Cup final: Belgium v Great Britain
Venue: Flanders Expo, Ghent Dates: 27-29 November
BBC coverage: Watch on BBC television, the BBC Sport website, Connected TVs, tablets, mobiles and app and listen on Radio 5 live and 5 live sports extra. Full details.
Kyle Edmund will make his Davis Cup debut in the final after he was selected as Britain's number two singles player to face Belgium.

Edmund, 20, will play David Goffin in the opening singles match at 12:30 GMT on Friday, followed by Andy Murray against Ruben Bemelmans.

Jamie Murray will join brother Andy for the doubles on Saturday.

Captain Leon Smith has retained James Ward for the reverse singles should the tie go to a fifth and final rubber.

The best-of-five tie takes place over three days at the Flanders Expo, with 13,000 spectators expected each day - including more than 1,000 British fans.

Great Britain are in the final for the first time since 1978 and are hoping to win their first Davis Cup since 1936, while Belgium have yet to win the competition.

Edmund will become only the sixth man in the 115-year history of the Davis Cup to make his debut in the final.

Davis Cup final draw
Day One David Goffin v Kyle Edmund; Ruben Bemelmans v Andy Murray
Day Two Kimmer Coppejans/Steve Darcis v Jamie Murray/Andy Murray
Day Three David Goffin v Andy Murray, Ruben Bemelmans v Kyle Edmund

[Aut0Gr4ph]

Good thing this was on clay. The court is acting like a giant fire bucket. Carpet would be up on flames by now.

[Calder106]

Well done GB. Great win. Andy Murray in ' No way I'm not losing this' mode. Total focus from him.

[CaledonianCraig]

Andy apparently joins John McEnroe and Mats Wilander as the only men to have an 8-0 singles record in a Davis Cup year, and with the doubles he is only the fourth man to win 11 rubbers in a single year.

Murray also matches his contemporaries in winning one of the sport's biggest prizes, having won more points along the way than Novak Djokovic (seven points in Serbia's 2010 win), Roger Federer (seven points in Switzerland's 2014 win), and Rafael Nadal (six points in Spain's 2011 win).

That from BBC.

[Guest]

Though it has been handy not to have had Spain, Serbia and Switzerland in the mix. Hasn't made it easier for Andy though given that the ties really rest on his singles rubbers.

Was it any an easier run-in than Switzerland had last year? I'd say not and lets remember they were loaded with two slam winners in their singles line-up.

You are looking at it at the wrong angle.

Andy is not the best player on tour. Not having to face those who I'd rank better than him helps immensely and the team.

Look at it realistically. Switzerland won last year with two slam winners in their singles line-up and they had the same this year and Serbia equally have a much stronger squad singles-wise than GB. If they were unable to see it through to this stage is that Murray or GB's look-out? Of course not and strength of squad-wise it makes it a better achievement as well considering the singles team has been made up of slam winner Murray and a player ranked 100+.

Eh?

Still missing the point. I am not comparing exploits and no I don't rank this higher than any other teams achievement in the DC.

The point I was making is that tournament opened up lovely Britain. It did Belgium too when they played Canada. Andy has had to put a monumental effort in none the less. However, being the best player left in the field when he knows that as does the field is a winner

Of course there is a difference in achievement levels. Switzerland did it with a far stronger team at their disposal. I mean is it a better achievement that Man United won the FA Cup or say Wimbledon or Coventry City. And sorry but how can you say the draw opened up when GB has a weak team - they have played USA (stronger on ranking and paper), France (likewise) and Australia (probably likewise) and still beat them all. If Switzerland, Spain or Serbia weren't good enough to reach the final - TOUGH.

Sorry I don't buy any of it.

By that definition I would rank the Czech Republics DC exploits above any.

[Guest]

Bit of class there from Andy Murray.  When he fell to the ground in tears after an unbelievable rally and winner, and all the GB team piled on top of him, to suddenly remember something and push all the GB team off of him, and then run to Goffin to shake his hand, then the Danish team captain, then the rest of the Danish team.  Classy.  Good stuff Andy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/34957662

[CaledonianCraig]

Though it has been handy not to have had Spain, Serbia and Switzerland in the mix. Hasn't made it easier for Andy though given that the ties really rest on his singles rubbers.

Was it any an easier run-in than Switzerland had last year? I'd say not and lets remember they were loaded with two slam winners in their singles line-up.

You are looking at it at the wrong angle.

Andy is not the best player on tour. Not having to face those who I'd rank better than him helps immensely and the team.

Look at it realistically. Switzerland won last year with two slam winners in their singles line-up and they had the same this year and Serbia equally have a much stronger squad singles-wise than GB. If they were unable to see it through to this stage is that Murray or GB's look-out? Of course not and strength of squad-wise it makes it a better achievement as well considering the singles team has been made up of slam winner Murray and a player ranked 100+.

Eh?

Still missing the point. I am not comparing exploits and no I don't rank this higher than any other teams achievement in the DC.

The point I was making is that tournament opened up lovely Britain. It did Belgium too when they played Canada. Andy has had to put a monumental effort in none the less. However, being the best player left in the field when he knows that as does the field is a winner

Of course there is a difference in achievement levels. Switzerland did it with a far stronger team at their disposal. I mean is it a better achievement that Man United won the FA Cup or say Wimbledon or Coventry City. And sorry but how can you say the draw opened up when GB has a weak team - they have played USA (stronger on ranking and paper), France (likewise) and Australia (probably likewise) and still beat them all. If Switzerland, Spain or Serbia weren't good enough to reach the final - TOUGH.

Sorry I don't buy any of it.

By that definition I would rank the Czech Republics DC exploits above any.

Really? Berdych ranked 5 or something at the time and Stepanek another player who had reached top ten in the world?

[Guest]

Though it has been handy not to have had Spain, Serbia and Switzerland in the mix. Hasn't made it easier for Andy though given that the ties really rest on his singles rubbers.

Was it any an easier run-in than Switzerland had last year? I'd say not and lets remember they were loaded with two slam winners in their singles line-up.

You are looking at it at the wrong angle.

Andy is not the best player on tour. Not having to face those who I'd rank better than him helps immensely and the team.

Look at it realistically. Switzerland won last year with two slam winners in their singles line-up and they had the same this year and Serbia equally have a much stronger squad singles-wise than GB. If they were unable to see it through to this stage is that Murray or GB's look-out? Of course not and strength of squad-wise it makes it a better achievement as well considering the singles team has been made up of slam winner Murray and a player ranked 100+.

Eh?

Still missing the point. I am not comparing exploits and no I don't rank this higher than any other teams achievement in the DC.

The point I was making is that tournament opened up lovely Britain. It did Belgium too when they played Canada. Andy has had to put a monumental effort in none the less. However, being the best player left in the field when he knows that as does the field is a winner

Of course there is a difference in achievement levels. Switzerland did it with a far stronger team at their disposal. I mean is it a better achievement that Man United won the FA Cup or say Wimbledon or Coventry City. And sorry but how can you say the draw opened up when GB has a weak team - they have played USA (stronger on ranking and paper), France (likewise) and Australia (probably likewise) and still beat them all. If Switzerland, Spain or Serbia weren't good enough to reach the final - TOUGH.

Sorry I don't buy any of it.

By that definition I would rank the Czech Republics DC exploits above any.

Really? Berdych ranked 5 or something at the time and Stepanek another player who had reached top ten in the world?

And how many Slams have they won?? Seeing that is what makes Switzerlands 2014 exploits so underwhelming.

[YvonneT]

Bit of class there from Andy Murray.  When he fell to the ground in tears after an unbelievable rally and winner, and all the GB team piled on top of him, to suddenly remember something and push all the GB team off of him, and then run to Goffin to shake his hand, then the Danish team captain, then the rest of the Danish team.  Classy.  Good stuff Andy.

Haha, there's enough asterisking without turning their opponents into the Danish!

But, yes, that was respect to a fellow pro player.

[CaledonianCraig]

Though it has been handy not to have had Spain, Serbia and Switzerland in the mix. Hasn't made it easier for Andy though given that the ties really rest on his singles rubbers.

Was it any an easier run-in than Switzerland had last year? I'd say not and lets remember they were loaded with two slam winners in their singles line-up.

You are looking at it at the wrong angle.

Andy is not the best player on tour. Not having to face those who I'd rank better than him helps immensely and the team.

Look at it realistically. Switzerland won last year with two slam winners in their singles line-up and they had the same this year and Serbia equally have a much stronger squad singles-wise than GB. If they were unable to see it through to this stage is that Murray or GB's look-out? Of course not and strength of squad-wise it makes it a better achievement as well considering the singles team has been made up of slam winner Murray and a player ranked 100+.

Eh?

Still missing the point. I am not comparing exploits and no I don't rank this higher than any other teams achievement in the DC.

The point I was making is that tournament opened up lovely Britain. It did Belgium too when they played Canada. Andy has had to put a monumental effort in none the less. However, being the best player left in the field when he knows that as does the field is a winner

Of course there is a difference in achievement levels. Switzerland did it with a far stronger team at their disposal. I mean is it a better achievement that Man United won the FA Cup or say Wimbledon or Coventry City. And sorry but how can you say the draw opened up when GB has a weak team - they have played USA (stronger on ranking and paper), France (likewise) and Australia (probably likewise) and still beat them all. If Switzerland, Spain or Serbia weren't good enough to reach the final - TOUGH.

Sorry I don't buy any of it.

By that definition I would rank the Czech Republics DC exploits above any.

Really? Berdych ranked 5 or something at the time and Stepanek another player who had reached top ten in the world?

And how many Slams have they won?? Seeing that is what makes Switzerlands 2014 exploits so underwhelming.

Slams or ranking - take your pick. It still amounts to the same thing whereas Switzerland had Federer (seen by many as the GOAT) and Wawrinka a long-established top ten player. GB had Murray and a conglomoration of players almost exclusively ranked outside the top 100. Massive difference. Czech Republic side had Berdych (long ranked in the top ten) and Stepanek (ranked at 44 at that time).

[Guest]

Though it has been handy not to have had Spain, Serbia and Switzerland in the mix. Hasn't made it easier for Andy though given that the ties really rest on his singles rubbers.

Was it any an easier run-in than Switzerland had last year? I'd say not and lets remember they were loaded with two slam winners in their singles line-up.

You are looking at it at the wrong angle.

Andy is not the best player on tour. Not having to face those who I'd rank better than him helps immensely and the team.

Look at it realistically. Switzerland won last year with two slam winners in their singles line-up and they had the same this year and Serbia equally have a much stronger squad singles-wise than GB. If they were unable to see it through to this stage is that Murray or GB's look-out? Of course not and strength of squad-wise it makes it a better achievement as well considering the singles team has been made up of slam winner Murray and a player ranked 100+.

Eh?

Still missing the point. I am not comparing exploits and no I don't rank this higher than any other teams achievement in the DC.

The point I was making is that tournament opened up lovely Britain. It did Belgium too when they played Canada. Andy has had to put a monumental effort in none the less. However, being the best player left in the field when he knows that as does the field is a winner

Of course there is a difference in achievement levels. Switzerland did it with a far stronger team at their disposal. I mean is it a better achievement that Man United won the FA Cup or say Wimbledon or Coventry City. And sorry but how can you say the draw opened up when GB has a weak team - they have played USA (stronger on ranking and paper), France (likewise) and Australia (probably likewise) and still beat them all. If Switzerland, Spain or Serbia weren't good enough to reach the final - TOUGH.

Sorry I don't buy any of it.

By that definition I would rank the Czech Republics DC exploits above any.

Really? Berdych ranked 5 or something at the time and Stepanek another player who had reached top ten in the world?

And how many Slams have they won?? Seeing that is what makes Switzerlands 2014 exploits so underwhelming.

Slams or ranking - take your pick. It still amounts to the same thing whereas Switzerland had Federer (seen by many as the GOAT) and Wawrinka a long-established top ten player. GB had Murray and a conglomoration of players almost exclusively ranked outside the top 100. Massive difference. Czech Republic side had Berdych (long ranked in the top ten) and Stepanek (ranked at 44 at that time).

So Czech Republic beating Spain in 2012 when Ferrer was ranked above Berdych and Almagro above Stepanek and with Berd/Step playing all the rubbers and then following that a year later beating Serbia with Djokovic in its ranks is lower than GB beating the mighty Belgium??

[YvonneT]

For all the arguments, it is undeniable that the Davis Cup is not the "World Cup of tennis". No national side would play their B team because their star players declined to play (well, maybe in qualifiers).

But, I do like about the Davis Cup that there are so many ways to win it - with a star singles player, good doubles teams, good second singles players (e.g. Stepanek, Troicki). That's what makes it interesting.

And I like that someone like James Ward can win it - not by himself but by playing his part in a team.

[YvonneT]

Czech Republic were undoubtedly the biggest upset in a final in recent years.

Some other results stand out in earlier rounds e.g. USA beating Switzerland away on clay.

[Jahu]

The world has gone mad.  Britain wins the Davis Cup, A Britain beats an all time great of heavyweight boxing, a Britain becomes the two time winner of the Tour de France, The British Men and Women's Gymnastic team win team medals in the World Championship, Britains beginning to break world records in the swimming.

...feel free to add a british lady with me 2 night's ago, and the Brits are on the verge of dominance again, from clay, to swim, box and bed  

[YvonneT]

GB first team to win DC on hard, grass and clay since Australia in 2003 apparently.

I can't say I'm enamoured by indoor clay in November - clay belongs under a blue sky on the Monte Carlo coast, or a muggy day in Paris.

[CaledonianCraig]

Though it has been handy not to have had Spain, Serbia and Switzerland in the mix. Hasn't made it easier for Andy though given that the ties really rest on his singles rubbers.

Was it any an easier run-in than Switzerland had last year? I'd say not and lets remember they were loaded with two slam winners in their singles line-up.

You are looking at it at the wrong angle.

Andy is not the best player on tour. Not having to face those who I'd rank better than him helps immensely and the team.

Look at it realistically. Switzerland won last year with two slam winners in their singles line-up and they had the same this year and Serbia equally have a much stronger squad singles-wise than GB. If they were unable to see it through to this stage is that Murray or GB's look-out? Of course not and strength of squad-wise it makes it a better achievement as well considering the singles team has been made up of slam winner Murray and a player ranked 100+.

Eh?

Still missing the point. I am not comparing exploits and no I don't rank this higher than any other teams achievement in the DC.

The point I was making is that tournament opened up lovely Britain. It did Belgium too when they played Canada. Andy has had to put a monumental effort in none the less. However, being the best player left in the field when he knows that as does the field is a winner

Of course there is a difference in achievement levels. Switzerland did it with a far stronger team at their disposal. I mean is it a better achievement that Man United won the FA Cup or say Wimbledon or Coventry City. And sorry but how can you say the draw opened up when GB has a weak team - they have played USA (stronger on ranking and paper), France (likewise) and Australia (probably likewise) and still beat them all. If Switzerland, Spain or Serbia weren't good enough to reach the final - TOUGH.

Sorry I don't buy any of it.

By that definition I would rank the Czech Republics DC exploits above any.

Really? Berdych ranked 5 or something at the time and Stepanek another player who had reached top ten in the world?

And how many Slams have they won?? Seeing that is what makes Switzerlands 2014 exploits so underwhelming.

Slams or ranking - take your pick. It still amounts to the same thing whereas Switzerland had Federer (seen by many as the GOAT) and Wawrinka a long-established top ten player. GB had Murray and a conglomoration of players almost exclusively ranked outside the top 100. Massive difference. Czech Republic side had Berdych (long ranked in the top ten) and Stepanek (ranked at 44 at that time).

So Czech Republic beating Spain in 2012 when Ferrer was ranked above Berdych and Almagro above Stepanek and with Berd/Step playing all the rubbers and then following that a year later beating Serbia with Djokovic in its ranks is lower than GB beating the mighty Belgium??

You take your choice. They had a team with players ranked close to matching the Spanish team and probably likewise the Serbia team. If you look at who GB has beaten to get to the final they were underdogs in all of those matches I'd say when you take into consideration there was always a player ranked 100+ in two singles rubbers. The Czech Republic beat bigger teams to win the final but with better team at their disposal than GB have had. I just find it a very odd statement you made in the first place instead of saying well played TeamGB and leaving it at that as is normally the way to salute champions.

[temporary21]

What you both forget is this is what, about a five year story. Its amazing looking back when we lost to Lithuania, and had to beat Turkey to not to be at the bottom rung. To clawing their way back without Murray, guys like Evans Skupski, Hutchins, Marray and Ward most of all.

To beat Russia from 2-0 down to even get to this point.

Forget all about ranking and asterisks etc etc, this is all about gbs resurrection from dc nobodies, to a tight knit team whos just won it! That didnt happen to the other teams who have always been thereabouts, this is reward for the whole teams work after the Lloyd debacle.

When the Swiss won it, it felt like all people cared for was  what it meant for Feds cabinet half the time, noone gave a rats about Chudinelli and the other guys who turned up when the top two coultn care less year after year and got their reward, this is about that whole GB team. Murray put in that inhuman effort all year for them...

[Guest]

Bit of class there from Andy Murray.  When he fell to the ground in tears after an unbelievable rally and winner, and all the GB team piled on top of him, to suddenly remember something and push all the GB team off of him, and then run to Goffin to shake his hand, then the Danish team captain, then the rest of the Danish team.  Classy.  Good stuff Andy.

Haha, there's enough asterisking without turning their opponents into the Danish!

But, yes, that was respect to a fellow pro player.

Danish - Belgium oops I always get confused over them

[Guest]

Though it has been handy not to have had Spain, Serbia and Switzerland in the mix. Hasn't made it easier for Andy though given that the ties really rest on his singles rubbers.

Was it any an easier run-in than Switzerland had last year? I'd say not and lets remember they were loaded with two slam winners in their singles line-up.

You are looking at it at the wrong angle.

Andy is not the best player on tour. Not having to face those who I'd rank better than him helps immensely and the team.

Look at it realistically. Switzerland won last year with two slam winners in their singles line-up and they had the same this year and Serbia equally have a much stronger squad singles-wise than GB. If they were unable to see it through to this stage is that Murray or GB's look-out? Of course not and strength of squad-wise it makes it a better achievement as well considering the singles team has been made up of slam winner Murray and a player ranked 100+.

Eh?

Still missing the point. I am not comparing exploits and no I don't rank this higher than any other teams achievement in the DC.

The point I was making is that tournament opened up lovely Britain. It did Belgium too when they played Canada. Andy has had to put a monumental effort in none the less. However, being the best player left in the field when he knows that as does the field is a winner

Of course there is a difference in achievement levels. Switzerland did it with a far stronger team at their disposal. I mean is it a better achievement that Man United won the FA Cup or say Wimbledon or Coventry City. And sorry but how can you say the draw opened up when GB has a weak team - they have played USA (stronger on ranking and paper), France (likewise) and Australia (probably likewise) and still beat them all. If Switzerland, Spain or Serbia weren't good enough to reach the final - TOUGH.

Sorry I don't buy any of it.

By that definition I would rank the Czech Republics DC exploits above any.

Really? Berdych ranked 5 or something at the time and Stepanek another player who had reached top ten in the world?

And how many Slams have they won?? Seeing that is what makes Switzerlands 2014 exploits so underwhelming.

Slams or ranking - take your pick. It still amounts to the same thing whereas Switzerland had Federer (seen by many as the GOAT) and Wawrinka a long-established top ten player. GB had Murray and a conglomoration of players almost exclusively ranked outside the top 100. Massive difference. Czech Republic side had Berdych (long ranked in the top ten) and Stepanek (ranked at 44 at that time).

So Czech Republic beating Spain in 2012 when Ferrer was ranked above Berdych and Almagro above Stepanek and with Berd/Step playing all the rubbers and then following that a year later beating Serbia with Djokovic in its ranks is lower than GB beating the mighty Belgium??

You take your choice. They had a team with players ranked close to matching the Spanish team and probably likewise the Serbia team. If you look at who GB has beaten to get to the final they were underdogs in all of those matches I'd say when you take into consideration there was always a player ranked 100+ in two singles rubbers. The Czech Republic beat bigger teams to win the final but with better team at their disposal than GB have had. I just find it a very odd statement you made in the first place instead of saying well played TeamGB and leaving it at that as is normally the way to salute champions.

Not a chance. GB had better matched players to Belgium. They weren't underdogs in any of ties probably bar France. GB had the highest ranked player left in field once Serbia went by the wayside. Andy was never losing any of his rubbers. You can bet Andy knew that as did the other countries left in the tournament. It's of no surprise that Andy has given this campaign more focus than any other before. Andy isn't the only one. Fed last year did the same once Wawrinka became a much better player. Team GB doesn't have the depth of other teams granted, but that became less of an issue once the other teams who were a threat were eliminated. Imagine if Raonic and Pospisil had stayed healthy when Canada met Belgium? GB faced with Raonic who troubles Murray and a more than capable doubles and singles player in Pospisil. Instead they faced Belgium with a talented top 20 player and a journeyman and an upcoming youngster. GB with a multi slam winner, doubles slam winner and an upcoming youngster.

I am not asterisking the GB victory in any shape or form. It's a great achievement and I am more than happy that the stars aligned. The chances of them replicating the feat are slim. Like Murray's slam victories, I hope this inspires more youngsters to pick up a racquet and not a joypad!

[CaledonianCraig]

We are talking cross purposes here though. You are talking of what it took for Czech Republic to win the finals they were in (better team ranking-wise than GB) whilst I am talking about GB's feat of even getting to the final considering they have one world class singles player and another almost certainly ranked outside the top 100 and regardless of them being favourites in the final (as they were) I am talking about the feat overall. Lets not forget that Serbia capitulated against Argentina in the QF's so who is to say what would have happened had GB played them? It certainly still wouldn't have been a shoo in win for the Serbs considering how they were thrashed by Argentina is it?

[It Must Be Love]

GB's effort for me has been incredible. Not just Murray's heroics this year, but sensational stuff from Ward and Evans; who have pulled of some huge upsets throughout the past few years to even get here. Leon Smith deserves sensational credit too.

[Guest]

We are talking cross purposes here though. You are talking of what it took for Czech Republic to win the finals they were in (better team ranking-wise than GB) whilst I am talking about GB's feat of even getting to the final considering they have one world class singles player and another almost certainly ranked outside the top 100 and regardless of them being favourites in the final (as they were) I am talking about the feat overall. Lets not forget that Serbia capitulated against Argentina in the QF's so who is to say what would have happened had GB played them? It certainly still wouldn't have been a shoo in win for the Serbs considering how they were thrashed by Argentina is it?

They beat the top 3 ranked teams to win it in 2012!! Let that sink in. The top 3 teams! There is no way I am ranking the GB exploits above that. For a team to rely on a player like Berdych who by all accounts in the eyes of many is seen as a choker on the big occasion certainly makes the achievement the more remarkable.

My original point remains. A GB success in the DC relied on a lot of factors swinging their favour and it did. Am I complaining? Hell no.

[sirfredperry]

Once the USA were beaten I was convinced that GB would triumph overall. Andy is so focused at DC. Would that he was so focused sometimes on the main tour!
Full marks to Leon Smith, too. Played Evans against Australia and he wore out Tomic, played Edmund in the final and he gave Goffin something to think about.
GB and Belgium, too, rode their luck with the opposition they faced and the big stars who were absent. Just looking at the world group draw next year, with possibly some of the big boys playing, shows how difficult it's going to be to win it in 2016.
Andy, though, was immense. He knew it all hinged on him. BBC Sport Personality of the Year again? Why not?

[CaledonianCraig]

You can look at it in various ways. Czech Republic were seeded two when winning in 2013 and five when winning in 2012. GB were unseeded this year and they did beat the No.1 seeds on their way to winning this year.

As for your original point - I don't see it holds any relevance whatsoever today. It is akin to excusing away a player winning a slam by claiming the draw opened up for him. You can only beat what teams you have in front of you and GB beating USA, France and Australia on its way to the Final is no easy task when you only have one player ranked in the top 100. Lets just say well done to them and leave it at that.

[Guest]

I thought once France were out the way they would triumph.

I agree the 2016 WG looks like a pig. I do wonder if Nishikori will be fit for the tie given his recent fitness troubles.

Bedene could feature and hopefully Edmund will continue to scale the rankings. I think GB retaining WG next year wouldn't be a disaster.

[Guest]

You can look at it in various ways. Czech Republic were seeded two when winning in 2013 and five when winning in 2012. GB were unseeded this year and they did beat the No.1 seeds on their way to winning this year.

As for your original point - I don't see it holds any relevance whatsoever today. It is akin to excusing away a player winning a slam by claiming the draw opened up for him. You can only beat what teams you have in front of you and GB beating USA, France and Australia on its way to the Final is no easy task when you only have one player ranked in the top 100. Lets just say well done to them and leave it at that.

You can look it at which way suits your point. Slam winners, rankings, team rankings. Pick your shovel.

My point remains very relevant. The moment you start ranking achievements above others with lack of perspective is foolish to say the least. You say you can only beat what's in front of you which to me indicates quality is not an issue, then crown the achievement higher. Contradictory at it's best.

[Calder106]

Of course winning the Davis Cup relies in some ways on things falling in your favour. Like being drawn at home and making it count. GB did that in the first three ties this year but also managed to win away in the final. They also won away in the USA last year (another good win for James Ward).

As for players not playing for other countries. Well they chose not to so where is the luck in that. These players may have had better seasons than they would have because they didn't commit to playing Davis Cup. The GB team made the commitment and played the matches. In Andy Murray's case, at least, possibly compromising some of his season. So a fully deserved victory. Saying they didn't meet Switzerland, Serbia or Spain, while true, is not really a fair point. The players who would have got these teams to a meeting with GB didn't play when required.

[CaledonianCraig]

Achievements if we are talking they only win one Davis Cup whether it is Switzerland beating Timbuktu or GB beating Swaziland is correct. But look deeper and the achievement to do such a thing with limited weapons/resources at your disposal and then the level of feat it is changes. Are you saying Man United with a team worth hundreds of millions of pounds is just as admirable and notable as say when Wimbledon or Coventry City won it? Of course it isn't. A United win is expected whilst the other is an eye-opening achievement.

[Guest]

Is the outcome still the same?

[CaledonianCraig]

Is the outcome still the same?

The outcome? By that I take it you mean the result? As I said the winners receive the Cup but one (ie Wimbledon or Coventry City) winning the FA Cup is much more noteworthy than a win by a multi-million pound spending club as it is a triumph of pulling meagre resources to gain success whereas the same cannot be said of the big spenders approach.

[sirfredperry]

Piece in the Sundays today by Michael Calvin laying claim to Andy M being Britain's greatest-ever sportsman. Always difficult to evaluate these things. But with a Wimbledon title, an Olympic Gold and now the DC, Andy aint done all that badly, has he?

[CaledonianCraig]

Piece in the Sundays today by Michael Calvin laying claim to Andy M being Britain's greatest-ever sportsman. Always difficult to evaluate these things. But with a Wimbledon title, an Olympic Gold and now the DC, Andy aint done all that badly, has he?

A daft piece then as he still isn't even the greatest ever tennis player Britain has produced.

Still a resume of Wimbledon winner, US Open winner, Olympic Champion and Davis Cup winner is not too shabby.

[Guest]

Thing is CC your throwing out a Man Utd victory compared with say Wimbledon. That's not the metric I would use. I'd say GBs victory is like that of Blackburn's title win in 94-95. You have the perfect ingredients come together. One person spearheading that charge. Which in this case Shearer=Murray. Every chance GB could go the way Blackburn did after the success. That season Blackburn didn't beat Utd in any other their fixtures and still won the league. 

The point is CC you can still win the big prizes without the beating the better teams. 

It's an observation.

[CaledonianCraig]

Thing is CC your throwing out a Man Utd victory compared with say Wimbledon. That's not the metric I would use. I'd say GBs victory is like that of Blackburn's title win in 94-95. You have the perfect ingredients come together. One person spearheading that charge. Which in this case Shearer=Murray. Every chance GB could go the way Blackburn did after the success. That season Blackburn didn't beat Utd in any other their fixtures and still won the league. 

The point is CC you can still win the big prizes without the beating the better teams. 

It's an observation.

No I'd say not as Blackburn (lest we forget) were bank-rolled to success so they had the resources. That is why I prefer the Wimbledon/Coventry City analogy in the FA Cup compared to a United win.

[Guest]

Piece in the Sundays today by Michael Calvin laying claim to Andy M being Britain's greatest-ever sportsman. Always difficult to evaluate these things. But with a Wimbledon title, an Olympic Gold and now the DC, Andy aint done all that badly, has he?

In modern times? I think it's a good shout. Given the field he has faced. 

Depends on metrics. Do you plump for the guy who dominates his sport and in essence makes it look like there is no competition? Or do you plump for the guy who achieves excellent results and titles in his field without being the best in it?

Interesting debate.

[Guest]

Thing is CC your throwing out a Man Utd victory compared with say Wimbledon. That's not the metric I would use. I'd say GBs victory is like that of Blackburn's title win in 94-95. You have the perfect ingredients come together. One person spearheading that charge. Which in this case Shearer=Murray. Every chance GB could go the way Blackburn did after the success. That season Blackburn didn't beat Utd in any other their fixtures and still won the league. 

The point is CC you can still win the big prizes without the beating the better teams. 

It's an observation.

No I'd say not as Blackburn (lest we forget) were bank-rolled to success so they had the resources. That is why I prefer the Wimbledon/Coventry City analogy in the FA Cup compared to a United win.

So who is the Liverpool in this tale? Because it ain't France, Australia, USA or Belgium.

[CaledonianCraig]

Why not France? They were the No.1 seeds.

And lest we forget - who did Belgium beat on their way to the final?

[Guest]

Were they champions?

[CaledonianCraig]

Were they champions?

Runners-up so nearly there. But Everton were champions (strictly speaking) anyway.

[Guest]

Ermmm Liverpool were champions in 1987/88.

So France weren't defending champions or even boasting a Slam winner for 2015. Can't say they are screaming Liverpool or that GB screaming Wimbledon.

[Calder106]

Thing is CC your throwing out a Man Utd victory compared with say Wimbledon. That's not the metric I would use. I'd say GBs victory is like that of Blackburn's title win in 94-95. You have the perfect ingredients come together. One person spearheading that charge. Which in this case Shearer=Murray. Every chance GB could go the way Blackburn did after the success. That season Blackburn didn't beat Utd in any other their fixtures and still won the league. 

The point is CC you can still win the big prizes without the beating the better teams. 

It's an observation.

How do you define a better team. By the players who could play or the players who actually turn up to play ?  A big difference.
.
The French team that GB beat in the QF's this year was a stronger team IMO than the GB team. Yes it was on grass but France had a  2015 Wimbledon Quarter Finalist on their team and also a 2015 Wimbledon Semi Finalist (who strangely never got a game) plus a current GS winning doubles player and Wimbledon 2014 Doubles Semi Finalist (Mahut). So it was not as if grass was alien to them. GB had GS winner Andy Murray and 2015 Wimbledon Doubles finalist in Jamie Murray plus James Ward (who has been excellent for GB but you would not expect him to beat Tsonga, Simon or Gasquet)

[temporary21]

The Czech team was markedly better than the GB one which only had one world class player with support, whilst Czechs had two.
They puled it off against Serbia in 2013 because Novak didnt play the doubles, and they didnt have another class player left with Troicki out. All dc teams ride some luck

[CaledonianCraig]

Ermmm Liverpool were champions in 1987/88.

So France weren't defending champions or even boasting a Slam winner for 2015. Can't say they are screaming Liverpool or that GB screaming Wimbledon.

Everton were champions going in though. Can't remember if the FA Cup Final came before or after the 87-88 season finished. France were no.1 seeds though and Belgium who are being painted as easy meat in the final beat Switzerland on their way to the final. However, if you see Switzerland's Davis Cup win as ground-breaking and notable achievement as GB's then I find that hard to believe when you look at the two teams on paper.

[Guest]

Thing is CC your throwing out a Man Utd victory compared with say Wimbledon. That's not the metric I would use. I'd say GBs victory is like that of Blackburn's title win in 94-95. You have the perfect ingredients come together. One person spearheading that charge. Which in this case Shearer=Murray. Every chance GB could go the way Blackburn did after the success. That season Blackburn didn't beat Utd in any other their fixtures and still won the league. 

The point is CC you can still win the big prizes without the beating the better teams. 

It's an observation.

How do you define a better team. By the players who could play or the players who actually turn up to play ?  A big difference.
.
The French team that GB beat in the QF's this year was a stronger team IMO than the GB team. Yes it was on grass but France had a  2015 Wimbledon Quarter Finalist on their team and also a 2015 Wimbledon Semi Finalist (who strangely never got a game) plus a current GS winning doubles player and Wimbledon 2014 Doubles Semi Finalist (Mahut). So it was not as if grass was alien to them. GB had GS winner Andy Murray and 2015 Wimbledon Doubles finalist in Jamie Murray plus James Ward (who has been excellent for GB but you would not expect him to beat Tsonga, Simon or Gasquet)

Did GB play Switzerland? No. Did they play Spain? No. Serbia? No. So by definition it's a mute point. The point I made is that there are better teams out there.

So you say France had a better team? So Gasquet is better than Murray? Is that what your telling me? A better team has the better players. GB had a Wimbledon champion and doubles Wimbledon champion.

[Guest]

Ermmm Liverpool were champions in 1987/88.

So France weren't defending champions or even boasting a Slam winner for 2015. Can't say they are screaming Liverpool or that GB screaming Wimbledon.

Everton were champions going in though. Can't remember if the FA Cup Final came before or after the 87-88 season finished. France were no.1 seeds though and Belgium who are being painted as easy meat in the final beat Switzerland on their way to the final. However, if you see Switzerland's Davis Cup win as ground-breaking and notable achievement as GB's then I find that hard to believe when you look at the two teams on paper.

Ok. So soon as this is on 'paper' What is the bigger achievement?

GB winning a 10th DC or Switzerland winning their 1st??

[CaledonianCraig]

Ermmm Liverpool were champions in 1987/88.

So France weren't defending champions or even boasting a Slam winner for 2015. Can't say they are screaming Liverpool or that GB screaming Wimbledon.

Everton were champions going in though. Can't remember if the FA Cup Final came before or after the 87-88 season finished. France were no.1 seeds though and Belgium who are being painted as easy meat in the final beat Switzerland on their way to the final. However, if you see Switzerland's Davis Cup win as ground-breaking and notable achievement as GB's then I find that hard to believe when you look at the two teams on paper.

Ok. So soon as this is on 'paper' What is the bigger achievement?

GB winning a 10th DC or Switzerland winning their 1st??

A team containing a world No.2 and a fellow singles player ranked 100+ against a team with a player then ranked No.2 and No.5 in the world - then I know what is the more notable achievement. I'd guess Switzerland were one of (if not the) favourites to win it last year whereas what odds would you have got for GB - I'd guess at least 20-1.

[Calder106]

Thing is CC your throwing out a Man Utd victory compared with say Wimbledon. That's not the metric I would use. I'd say GBs victory is like that of Blackburn's title win in 94-95. You have the perfect ingredients come together. One person spearheading that charge. Which in this case Shearer=Murray. Every chance GB could go the way Blackburn did after the success. That season Blackburn didn't beat Utd in any other their fixtures and still won the league. 

The point is CC you can still win the big prizes without the beating the better teams. 

It's an observation.

How do you define a better team. By the players who could play or the players who actually turn up to play ?  A big difference.
.
The French team that GB beat in the QF's this year was a stronger team IMO than the GB team. Yes it was on grass but France had a  2015 Wimbledon Quarter Finalist on their team and also a 2015 Wimbledon Semi Finalist (who strangely never got a game) plus a current GS winning doubles player and Wimbledon 2014 Doubles Semi Finalist (Mahut). So it was not as if grass was alien to them. GB had GS winner Andy Murray and 2015 Wimbledon Doubles finalist in Jamie Murray plus James Ward (who has been excellent for GB but you would not expect him to beat Tsonga, Simon or Gasquet)

Did GB play Switzerland? No. Did they play Spain? No. Serbia? No. So by definition it's a mute point. The point I made is that there are better teams out there.

So you say France had a better team? So Gasquet is better than Murray? Is that what your telling me? A better team has the better players. GB had a Wimbledon champion and doubles Wimbledon champion.

They may have been better teams if their top players had made commitment to play the full schedule but they didn't and their back ups were not good enough. So they were not better teams . Like GB they rely on one or two players if they don't play they are in trouble. It's their choice.

I didn't say France had the better team I was pointing to the stronger pool that they had to pick from. Monfils and Benneteau were not even in the final squad. I agree that Andy Murray would normally beat any of the French players in a singles match on grass. However he had to beat two in 3 days with a difficult doubles match (with Jamie) in between.

[Guest]

Ermmm Liverpool were champions in 1987/88.

So France weren't defending champions or even boasting a Slam winner for 2015. Can't say they are screaming Liverpool or that GB screaming Wimbledon.

Everton were champions going in though. Can't remember if the FA Cup Final came before or after the 87-88 season finished. France were no.1 seeds though and Belgium who are being painted as easy meat in the final beat Switzerland on their way to the final. However, if you see Switzerland's Davis Cup win as ground-breaking and notable achievement as GB's then I find that hard to believe when you look at the two teams on paper.

Ok. So soon as this is on 'paper' What is the bigger achievement?

GB winning a 10th DC or Switzerland winning their 1st??

A team containing a world No.2 and a fellow singles player ranked 100+ against a team with a player then ranked No.2 and No.5 in the world - then I know what is the more notable achievement. I'd guess Switzerland were one of (if not the) favourites to win it last year whereas what odds would you have got for GB - I'd guess at least 20-1.

Well I was told if Djokovic had taken it seriously, they wouldn't have won. Plus they weren't seeded

I would've given them odds of 16-1.

[Guest]

Thing is CC your throwing out a Man Utd victory compared with say Wimbledon. That's not the metric I would use. I'd say GBs victory is like that of Blackburn's title win in 94-95. You have the perfect ingredients come together. One person spearheading that charge. Which in this case Shearer=Murray. Every chance GB could go the way Blackburn did after the success. That season Blackburn didn't beat Utd in any other their fixtures and still won the league. 

The point is CC you can still win the big prizes without the beating the better teams. 

It's an observation.

How do you define a better team. By the players who could play or the players who actually turn up to play ?  A big difference.
.
The French team that GB beat in the QF's this year was a stronger team IMO than the GB team. Yes it was on grass but France had a  2015 Wimbledon Quarter Finalist on their team and also a 2015 Wimbledon Semi Finalist (who strangely never got a game) plus a current GS winning doubles player and Wimbledon 2014 Doubles Semi Finalist (Mahut). So it was not as if grass was alien to them. GB had GS winner Andy Murray and 2015 Wimbledon Doubles finalist in Jamie Murray plus James Ward (who has been excellent for GB but you would not expect him to beat Tsonga, Simon or Gasquet)

Did GB play Switzerland? No. Did they play Spain? No. Serbia? No. So by definition it's a mute point. The point I made is that there are better teams out there.

So you say France had a better team? So Gasquet is better than Murray? Is that what your telling me? A better team has the better players. GB had a Wimbledon champion and doubles Wimbledon champion.

They may have been better teams if their top players had made commitment to play the full schedule but they didn't and their back ups were not good enough. So they were not better teams . Like GB they rely on one or two players if they don't play they are in trouble. It's their choice.

I didn't say France had the better team I was pointing to the stronger pool that they had to pick from. Monfils and Benneteau were not even in the final squad. I agree that Andy Murray would normally beat any of the French players in a singles match on grass. However he had to beat two in 3 days with a difficult doubles match (with Jamie) in between.

So France were stronger? But because they weren't better players......

You lost me there.

[Calder106]

Ok.

Andy Murray, James Ward, Dan Evans, Kyle Edmund, Jamie Murray, Dominic Inglot

Richard Gasquet, Giles Simon, Jo-Wilfried Tsonga, Gael Monfils, Nicolas Mahut, Julien Benneteau

Which is the stronger squad ? (note I'm talking squad).

[CaledonianCraig]

And you could throw a few more French players in there that are ranked higher than anyone in GB squad (excepting Murray).

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