Those 6N's Rivalries

by yappysnap Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:54 am

First topic message reminder :

Just curious to see peoples thoughts on this. A lot is made of the whole England v Wales thing, but is that competitive spirit/dislike actually still as strong as it used to be?

For me I'd say the competitive side is as strong as ever. I have nothing against the Welsh, but they are definitely the fans that give out the most banter (digs) and they're the team that's probably caused England the most pain recently. They're also some of the best fans to chat rugby with in person, and from the times when I've randomly ended up watching games alongside them, can take criticism, a loss and a bit of mocking very well (as well as give it out). But they are definitely the team I dread losing to!

On the pitch I feel there are a few scores to settle as well namely that drubbing in Cardiff, and then the RWC loss (shudders). I hope who ever plays for England remembers those two defeats and uses that pain to make them come out with passion and play right on the edge. The 6n's is all about these historic games, where there is so much back story to every meeting, and this years England v Wales should be particularly spicy.

What other big rivalries are there in the 6N's now?

Feel free to let this become the wumming thread too...

by RuggerRadge2611 Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Compromise on an English win 1st week and Scottish 2nd then?

I'll wait till the 7th of February before I agree to this.

by BamBam Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:35 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha. Closer than I thought but I was going past the magical 10 year mark granted. Wish it was Murrayfield tomorrow, my favourite fixture.

Ditto, but my Welsh dad has become insufferable over the last few years so I really want Scotland to do them in the 2nd week of the competition.

Welsh fans being insufferable .. who'da thunk it Hug

by mikey_dragon Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:54 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Based on the most recent set of results which is all we can really do, Scotland are in a better position currently than England, who had a dire world cup and have a new coach with his feet barely under the desk. That's a fact.

Now this is where I will disagree with you RR. I do not think Scotland had that much of a better WC than England, if Scotland were in the same group as England I doubt you would have done any better, I reckon you would have beaten Uruguay, and Fiji would have been a 50/50 for you.

The thing is, you beat a knackered Japan side, struggled past Samoa and got humped by South Africa, then based on a game against Australia you are getting exited.

Look I do not want to pour water on your fire, I do think Scotland are an improved side, just not enough to warrant a place at the same table as the top European countries, not yet anyway.

If I were an Englishman, I would not be at all worried about going up to Scotland in this coming 6N.

Scotland scored tries against Australia, which was more than we managed, Dowlais. And let's not airbrush history - we were mightily relieved to see off Fiji ourselves.

They also conceded five against Australia, which was five more than we conceded. So that was more than we managed there as well.

I think the three tier 1 teams struggled in parts against Fiji. We did probably a bit more than the other two as we usually seem to do, and we had little rest before the game.

by gregortree Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:34 pm

"If I were an Englishman, I would not be at all worried about going up to Scotland in this coming 6N."

Well I am an Englishman...but insufficiently 'arrogant' to make such a statement. God help me on 606 if I did.

by mikey_dragon Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:59 pm

I think it's more the "well we didn't wanna win the crappy 6 Nations anyway" attitude that some people were referring to. If you came out with what you quoted there then I believe most people would say it's realistic rather than arrogant.

by gregortree Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:24 pm

I want England to win the 6n, a great comp. Congratulations to Wales and Ireland on their record, but I want MY country to win it. Hope Jones can help us be more ruthless there.

by Geordie Tue Jan 12, 2016 8:58 pm

Well its irrelevant, because we'll win this 6n anyway.

England back to basics. Tough to beat and effective in the set pieces and we'll actually have a breakdown presence....

by Gwlad Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:23 am

mikey_dragon wrote:I think it's more the "well we didn't wanna win the crappy 6 Nations anyway" attitude that some people were referring to. If you came out with what you quoted there then I believe most people would say it's realistic rather than arrogant.

That poster and others have devalued it with those sorts of comments by necessity i guess. They have no sense of what it feels like to win it and having come so close so often it must get to the point where you start to become negative about the tourney itself because you can't achieve your objective.

I dont think England have been better placed to be optimistic since 2003. That said with Jonno and to a lesser extent Lancaster there was the honeymoon hype which quickly faded. Eddie has more substance than those two combined IMO.

But it will take a lot more than Eddie Jones to turn it 180 degrees from last autumn. Hell of a challenge but this is the guy that took Japan past the Boks. (with a little assistance from a naive Meyer)

It s possible but after the autumn, so little prep and injury, i think targeting a 2nd or 3rd ail have to do this year with a view to winning next year.

by Tattie Scones RRN Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:44 am

Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I think it's more the "well we didn't wanna win the crappy 6 Nations anyway" attitude that some people were referring to. If you came out with what you quoted there then I believe most people would say it's realistic rather than arrogant.

That poster and others have devalued it with those sorts of comments by necessity i guess. They have no sense of what it feels like to win it and having come so close so often it must get to the point where you start to become negative about the tourney itself because you can't achieve your objective.

I dont think England have been better placed to be optimistic since 2003. That said with Jonno and to a lesser extent Lancaster there was the honeymoon hype which quickly faded. Eddie has more substance than those two combined IMO.

But it will take a lot more than Eddie Jones to turn it 180 degrees from last autumn. Hell of a challenge but this is the guy that took Japan past the Boks. (with a little assistance from a naive Meyer)

It s possible but after the autumn, so little prep and injury, i think targeting a 2nd or 3rd ail have to do this year with a view to winning next year.

He's also the guy that watched his team get royally pumped by Scotland.

A good coach will achieve positive consistency. not the odd giant killer.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:46 am

3 days rest. I know I've said that before and got told off, but it is a factor for consideration.

by Tattie Scones RRN Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:54 am

FFS here we go again.

They are professional athletes with modern recovery techniques.

Eddie Izzard ran 43 marathons in 51 days without such assistance.

It's a boring and repetitive excuse which everyone apart from the Scots and Japanese use.

by LordDowlais Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:55 am

I think Eddie Jones will be a revelation for England, he is a no nonsense type of guy, he has that SH grit, like other coaches up here, he knows his onions and will say exactly what he is thinking, something the PRL and the old farts in the union need to be ready for.

He will also have England playing to their strengths and will not be swayed into playing how others want him to play, I would be very excited if I was an English rugby supporter at the moment.

England are my tip to win this years 6N. Crying or Very sad

by LordDowlais Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:58 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:FFS here we go again.

They are professional athletes with modern recovery techniques.

Eddie Izzard ran 43 marathons in 51 days without such assistance.

It's a boring and repetitive excuse which everyone apart from the Scots and Japanese use.

What a load of bollox that is. Eddie Izzard did run all those marathons, but he did not have to do it against anybody did he ? It is friggin obvious that somebody who has had 7 days rest is going to be in better shape than somebody who has 3 days rest.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:00 am

i'm not saying Scotland wouldn't have turned them over anyway, but that is a nice advantage to have.

by gregortree Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:03 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I think it's more the "well we didn't wanna win the crappy 6 Nations anyway" attitude that some people were referring to. If you came out with what you quoted there then I believe most people would say it's realistic rather than arrogant.

That poster and others have devalued it with those sorts of comments by necessity i guess. They have no sense of what it feels like to win it and having come so close so often it must get to the point where you start to become negative about the tourney itself because you can't achieve your objective.

I dont think England have been better placed to be optimistic since 2003. That said with Jonno and to a lesser extent Lancaster there was the honeymoon hype which quickly faded. Eddie has more substance than those two combined IMO.

But it will take a lot more than Eddie Jones to turn it 180 degrees from last autumn. Hell of a challenge but this is the guy that took Japan past the Boks. (with a little assistance from a naive Meyer)

It s possible but after the autumn, so little prep and injury, i think targeting a 2nd or 3rd ail have to do this year with a view to winning next year.

He's also the guy that watched his team get royally pumped by Scotland.

A good coach will achieve positive consistency. not the odd giant killer.

I was at Kingsholm for that. Japan held for Scotland 40 minutes but ran out of gas. Scots cut fast and loose in H2 and fair play, they looked very good. But Japan conversely looked shagged out after their Boks heroics. Laidlaw is looking good btw for Glaws.

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:13 am

Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I think it's more the "well we didn't wanna win the crappy 6 Nations anyway" attitude that some people were referring to. If you came out with what you quoted there then I believe most people would say it's realistic rather than arrogant.

That poster and others have devalued it with those sorts of comments by necessity i guess. They have no sense of what it feels like to win it and having come so close so often it must get to the point where you start to become negative about the tourney itself because you can't achieve your objective.

That can only be true if they were born after 2011. picard

by Sgt_Pooly Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:25 am

Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

by munkian Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:48 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

If you can't do the former the latter seems rather unlikely

by Sgt_Pooly Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:51 am

munkian wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

If you can't do the former the latter seems rather unlikely

The AI's are 6 month further down the line and all at home. Losing away to Ireland or Wales is a possibility, especially early in Jones tenure.

by gregortree Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:51 am

Let's win a 6n and go from there.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:52 am

Wales and ireland at Twickers, France, Scots and Italy away is it this year?

by Sgt_Pooly Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:54 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wales and ireland at Twickers, France, Scots and Italy away is it this year?

I meant in theory but losing in France is a similar story I guess. You'd expect Jones to have a much tighter grip by the AI.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:54 am

munkian wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

If you can't do the former the latter seems rather unlikely

For Woodward's England, it was normal service to get a clean sweep in Autumn while dropping a match in the 6N.

by munkian Wed Jan 13, 2016 10:55 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
munkian wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

If you can't do the former the latter seems rather unlikely
For Woodward's England, it was normal service to get a clean sweep in Autumn while dropping a match in the 6N.

You can still 'win' the 6 Nations while dropping a match.

by lostinwales Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:03 am

munkian wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
munkian wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

If you can't do the former the latter seems rather unlikely
For Woodward's England, it was normal service to get a clean sweep in Autumn while dropping a match in the 6N.

You can still 'win' the 6 Nations while dropping a match.

Yeah we did that back in 2011 which is often conveniently forgotten

by munkian Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:04 am

lostinwales wrote:
munkian wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
munkian wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

If you can't do the former the latter seems rather unlikely
For Woodward's England, it was normal service to get a clean sweep in Autumn while dropping a match in the 6N.

You can still 'win' the 6 Nations while dropping a match.

Yeah we did that back in 2011 which is often conveniently forgotten

Bless

by lostinwales Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:06 am

munkian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
munkian wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
munkian wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

If you can't do the former the latter seems rather unlikely
For Woodward's England, it was normal service to get a clean sweep in Autumn while dropping a match in the 6N.

You can still 'win' the 6 Nations while dropping a match.

Yeah we did that back in 2011 which is often conveniently forgotten

Bless

Well you know we don't feel the need to go on about it for hours all the time........

by munkian Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:11 am

lostinwales wrote:
munkian wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
munkian wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
munkian wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

If you can't do the former the latter seems rather unlikely
For Woodward's England, it was normal service to get a clean sweep in Autumn while dropping a match in the 6N.

You can still 'win' the 6 Nations while dropping a match.

Yeah we did that back in 2011 which is often conveniently forgotten

Bless

Well you know we don't feel the need to go on about it for hours all the time........

Well, that is your style, quiet dignity

by Breadvan Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:30 pm

Screw the AIs! Lets at least try and win a 6 nations first and push on from there. One in 13yrs is a pish poor return tbh. Madness to think that EJ is the first Eng coach with a decent world pedigree since SCW? No wonder we've won censored

all!

by **Rugby Fan** Wed Jan 13, 2016 1:04 pm

I love the Six Nations, and dearly want England to win it. At the same time, I don't think it's a competition you have to win before you can entertain thoughts of beating the top southern hemisphere sides. That just seems like the kind of masochistic view of northern hemisphere rugby which makes teams lose the match before kick-off.

Woodward's England dropped a match in four straight 5 Nations tournaments - once to each team - at a time when they went on a long unbeaten run against the south. That kind of performance may be an outlier but I think Wales' record of Grand Slamming the Northern sides while failing for ages to notch a victory over one of the Big 3 is just as much of an outlier.

I think the Six Nations is a hard competition to win, and that's not a judgement based on England's low recent title count. The home and away format is a challenge, and the intense historic rivalries can make a fool of the form book. Every game matters, and you can't afford any slip-ups.

Wales might be playing England twice this year, but it's more usual for these old tournament opponents to face each other only once. There's no chance to share the honours as you get in a home-and-away format, or if the teams met more regularly in competition.

It is genuinely a fine achievement for Wales to have taken so many Grand Slams in recent years, which is why it has been so frustrating to see the same side come up short against the Big 3. It contributes to an inferiority complex up North which we shouldn't feel as keenly.

If people are saying "Let's see if our team can win the 6 Nations before we think about the south" just because that's the way the schedule falls right now, then fine. Take each game as it comes, and all that. If, instead, the meaning is "Let's not have realistic ambitions to beat the south until we can claim to be top dog in the north", then I'm utterly opposed to that attitude.

by Gwlad Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:08 am

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:I think it's more the "well we didn't wanna win the crappy 6 Nations anyway" attitude that some people were referring to. If you came out with what you quoted there then I believe most people would say it's realistic rather than arrogant.

That poster and others have devalued it with those sorts of comments by necessity i guess. They have no sense of what it feels like to win it and having come so close so often it must get to the point where you start to become negative about the tourney itself because you can't achieve your objective.

I dont think England have been better placed to be optimistic since 2003. That said with Jonno and to a lesser extent Lancaster there was the honeymoon hype which quickly faded. Eddie has more substance than those two combined IMO.

But it will take a lot more than Eddie Jones to turn it 180 degrees from last autumn. Hell of a challenge but this is the guy that took Japan past the Boks. (with a little assistance from a naive Meyer)

It s possible but after the autumn, so little prep and injury, i think targeting a 2nd or 3rd ail have to do this year with a view to winning next year.

He's also the guy that watched his team get royally pumped by Scotland.

A good coach will achieve positive consistency. not the odd giant killer.

Agreed and he missed a trick. in fact you could argue his RWC went rapidly downhill from beating one of the very big boys to not making the quarters.

by Gwlad Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:19 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
munkian wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

If you can't do the former the latter seems rather unlikely

The AI's are 6 month further down the line and all at home. Losing away to Ireland or Wales is a possibility, especially early in Jones tenure.

I dont think losing away is a 'possibility', i think its probable. You have a short memory.

by Gwlad Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:36 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

Makes zero sense unsurprisingly. You can't get the latter without the former. Hasn't happened so far has it.

You want to win the next game.

Effectively saying one half of the rugby world isn't worth bothering with because we haven't beaten them for so long in competition is plain nonsense.

You think Sir Clive had that attitude?

by Gwlad Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:43 am

LordDowlais wrote:I think Eddie Jones will be a revelation for England, he is a no nonsense type of guy, he has that SH grit, like other coaches up here, he knows his onions and will say exactly what he is thinking, something the PRL and the old farts in the union need to be ready for.

He will also have England playing to their strengths and will not be swayed into playing how others want him to play, I would be very excited if I was an English rugby supporter at the moment.

England are my tip to win this years 6N.

it would be a f%^&ing miracle if he did!

But i loved an interview he gave this week….interviewer tries to give him the huge pressure you're under Eddie teaser and he comes straight back at him, smiling all over:

I'm not under pressure, the players are.

Brilliant.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:52 am

Gwlad wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

Makes zero sense unsurprisingly. You can't get the latter without the former. Hasn't happened so far has it.

As pointed out above, Woodward's England did get the latter without the former on two occasions. So, yes, it has happened.

by Gwlad Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:48 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Gwlad wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

Makes zero sense unsurprisingly. You can't get the latter without the former. Hasn't happened so far has it.
As pointed out above, Woodward's England did get the latter without the former on two occasions. So, yes, it has happened.

I was referring to modern rugby, not 14 years ago.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:15 am

You've got to laugh when people put an imaginary cut off point in time for achievements.

Conveniently this line seems to be after England's tenure as the best side in the world and before Wales won a few Grand Slams.

It seems to run a bit like this:

Pre 2005 - Rugby didn't happen, all achievements do not count
2005 - Achievements count
2006-07 - Forgot about, especially WC performances
2008-2010 - Achievements count again
2011 - Totally blanked from memory (England 6N Winners)
2012-2013 - Achievements count again, really count, the most important years
2014 - Doesn't really count (England Triple crown winners)
2015 - Sort of count again

by Gwlad Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:24 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:You've got to laugh when people put an imaginary cut off point in time for achievements.

Conveniently this line seems to be after England's tenure as the best side in the world and before Wales won a few Grand Slams.

It seems to run a bit like this:

Pre 2005 - Rugby didn't happen, all achievements do not count
2005 - Achievements count
2006-07 - Forgot about, especially WC performances
2008-2010 - Achievements count again
2011 - Totally blanked from memory (England 6N Winners)
2012-2013 - Achievements count again, really count, the most important years
2014 - Doesn't really count (England Triple crown winners)
2015 - Sort of count again

That must have taken a lot of effort to figure out.

Easier just to say 2011 was forgotten about really, you're welcome thumbsup

So…ignore button off is again is it; do you need help again Laugh

by Gwlad Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:38 am

yappysnap wrote:Just curious to see peoples thoughts on this. A lot is made of the whole England v Wales thing, but is that competitive spirit/dislike actually still as strong as it used to be?

For me I'd say the competitive side is as strong as ever. I have nothing against the Welsh, but they are definitely the fans that give out the most banter (digs) and they're the team that's probably caused England the most pain recently. They're also some of the best fans to chat rugby with in person, and from the times when I've randomly ended up watching games alongside them, can take criticism, a loss and a bit of mocking very well (as well as give it out). But they are definitely the team I dread losing to!

On the pitch I feel there are a few scores to settle as well namely that drubbing in Cardiff, and then the RWC loss (shudders). I hope who ever plays for England remembers those two defeats and uses that pain to make them come out with passion and play right on the edge. The 6n's is all about these historic games, where there is so much back story to every meeting, and this years England v Wales should be particularly spicy.

What other big rivalries are there in the 6N's now?

Feel free to let this become the wumming thread too...

by eirebilly Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:06 am

I guess this thread show's where the real rivalry lies in the 6N between the fans Cool

by gregortree Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:40 am

If it becomes the wumming thread then im out.
Fans in the flesh are great company and generally there is a great banter driven craic in the bars.
And that is all six nationalities, give or take a French or Glaswegian language barrier.

Fans behind keyboards and noms de plume though, can be a rifgt pain in the buttocks.

by eirebilly Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:43 am

A bit of wumming is alright as long as it stays to pretty much one thread thumbsup

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:48 am

eirebilly wrote:A bit of wumming is alright as long as it stays to pretty much one thread

That's the issue though Billy, it's infecting the whole board. We're completely infected on the English threads.

by eirebilly Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:53 am

In fairness Pooly, I have seen you give as good as you get thumbsup

by gregortree Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:01 am

Welsh posters love to clamber abord many 'English' topics, more so seemingly than do Irish or Scots posters. The thread goes downhill from there into wum territory in a hurry.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:12 am

eirebilly wrote:In fairness Pooly, I have seen you give as good as you get

Only in response Billy.

I certainly don't trawl other nations threads looking to derail them.

by eirebilly Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:17 am

I guess having so much provincial infighting on Irish threads has me blinded to excessive wumming then thumbsup

by eirebilly Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:23 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Winning the 6N would be a step in the right direction but I'd rather win all of the AI games against the best teams in the world.

I know where you are coming from but I am a great believer in success breeding success. Winning the 6N does not guarantee a team success in the AI's but it certainly is a step in the right direction as it gives players belief.

With Irelands recent 6N wins, it has helped them in the subsequent AI's I believe (although going pear shaped in the RWC) so to me it remains an incredibly important tournament.

by munkian Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:12 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
eirebilly wrote:A bit of wumming is alright as long as it stays to pretty much one thread

That's the issue though Billy, it's infecting the whole board. We're completely infected on the English threads.

To be fair England has all the 'news' at the moment - new coach, new squad and the first Tri Nation to name its squad - there's not much else to talk about at the moment.

This is also your 3rd coach in a row to 'rebuild' - and they always say the same thing.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:15 am

And I'd say personally that views from everyone are welcome and discussed. There are posters who are pretty obviously just trying to be d**ks though.

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