6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February

by **George Carlin** Wed Jan 20, 2016 1:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 20 Scot_f10

6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 20 Englan10

SCOTLAND v ENGLAND
6 February 2016
KO: 16:50 GMT
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

Live on BBC, RTE, FR2, DMAX / ITV(H)

Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

133 Played 133
42 Won 73
18 Drawn 18
73 Lost 42
1,132 Points 1,547

B. Recent Form

14 March 2015
Twickenham, London
25 – 13 to England

8 February 2014
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
0 – 20 to England

2 February 2013
Twickenham, London
38 – 18 to England

4 February 2012
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
6 – 13 to England

1 October 2011
Eden Park, Auckland
16 – 12 to England

C. Teams

SCOTLAND
6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 20 Pia_mi10

6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 20 Pia_mi10

15. Stuart Hogg
14. Sean Maitland
13. Mark Bennett
12. Matt Scott
11. Tommy Seymour
10. Finn Russell
09. Greig Laidlaw (captain)

01. Alasdair Dickinson
02. Ross Ford
03. Willem Nel
04. Richie Gray
05. Jonny Gray
06. John Barclay
07. John Hardie
08. David Denton

16. Stuart McInally
17. Gordon Reid
18. Zander Fagerson
19. Tim Swinson
20. Blair Cowan
21. Sam Hidalgo-Clyne
22. Duncan Weir
23. Duncan Taylor

ENGLAND
6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 20 Daisy_11

6N 2016: Scotland v England, 6 February - Page 20 Daisy_11

15. Mike Brown
14. Anthony Watson
13. Jonathan Joseph
12. Owen Farrell
11. Jack Nowell
10. George Ford
09. Danny Care

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. Dan Cole
04. Joe Launchbury
05. George Kruis
06. Chris Robshaw
07. James Haskell
08. Billy Vunipola

16. Jamie George
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Paul Hill
19. Courtney Lawes
20. Jack Clifford
21. Ben Youngs
22. Alex Goode
23. Ollie Devoto

by Barney McGrew did it Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:40 pm

England off a poor RWC with a new coach in the post for 5 minutes, go away to the wild north and get a 2 – 0 try win against an improving Scotland. Sounds like job done to me.

by Shifty Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:44 pm

Yeah I agree no less than most of us honestly expected though, all Scotland do is talk about improvement and potential then their players bottle it and fail to deliver.

I always say all the time that Scotland go in alternate cycles, one year they score lots of points but concede even more, so it's all talk about their attack. The next year they score no points but are hard to break down and risk adverse, but still lose anyway, but in the final game it all goes títs up before a bad loss in the final weeks.

by majesticimperialman Sat Feb 06, 2016 11:51 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:England off a poor RWC with a new coach in the post for 5 minutes, go away to the wild north and get a 2 – 0 try win against an improving Scotland. Sounds like job done to me.

I guess it is just like the old saying goes. The only way is up. For England that is.

by Majestic83 Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:51 am

From a Scottish point of view the performance was very poor, a few of our key players just didn't show up and a couple are clearly not in form and lacking in confidence.
The defence was overall fairly effective from scotland. On our own ball the forwards were sloppy at securing and presenting clean ball, 3 or 4 times we had a good position but the ball came shooting out.
Poor performers for me were Ross ford who threw a few poor line out throws costing us possession in good areas.
Richie gray was missing in action a little and didn't impose himself, Johnny did better but didn't feel he was at his best.
Denton tried to carry but just wasn't making any yards.
Laidlaw had a good spell in the last ten of the first half but apart from that his passing was very slow and often took a couple steps meaning England were up in our faces quickly. He didn't control Scottish possession well either. He should have given the ball to Russell for the DG attempt three phases earlier when scotland were in a much better position.
Russell was average, had a couple good moments but again didn't really give any good go forward.
Tommy Seymour is clearly not in form and is lacking in confidence. Spill two balls in contact and then another one. After that he seemed scared to take the ball into contact instead passing long to Hogg. His defence was poor as well today.
i pact from the bench for scotland wasn't great as we didn't really have any players capable of changing the game.
Could have done with Strauss for his ball carrying and bulk in the final 20, same with ben toolis. When Reid came on the Scottish scrum struggled, would have Sutherland as loosehead replacement.
Other change on the bench would be Jackson for weir. Jackson is more of a game changer plus he covers more positions than weir.
Don't expect many changes next week but would certainly drop Seymour and bring in either taylor. Wing is a position you need to be confident, taylor is in form and showing confidence at sarries, the other option could be Rory Hughes, inexperienced but is in form and certainly someone who is very confident.

by ChequeredJersey Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:02 am

Interesting fact to build on what I said earlier- according to ESPN, across the 12 forwards who played for England in this match, there were only 59 carries. 22, or 39%, were by Billy Vunipola. He made 51/77m (66%) made by our forwards.

I assume this was deliberate. He lived up to that job, but possibly it would be good to occasionally try to someone else to do some of that? It implies to me that the pack as a whole was almost entirely doing ruck work and mauls

Also, Mike Brown passed more than our 12 or our 13. And Danny Care ran with the ball only once (Youngs 3 times), a stark comparison to how he would play for Club.

by sensisball Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:07 am

maj
good analysis except i thought Maitland was the more off form winger. tennesese tam had a go but either coughed the ball up or got stripped ( well by watson ) whereas maitland either sauntered into touch or went to ground too easily. For me Bennett clearly wasnt ready and had his most anonymous game in blue. Having said that i still thought we might take the game, even with 10 to go (might have been the beer goggles!!!) england made less mistakes, took their changes and Billy V showed his class in a dominant carrying display. Frustrated that we started several promising attacks but scewed it up at the crucial moments. Glasgow's poor form certainly carried into this game by many players, but not Hogg, who was generally top class.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Feb 07, 2016 5:21 am

nathan wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I honestly can't believe you thought Youngs played better than Youngs Nathan.

I actually prefer Youngs to Care but Youngs barely put a foot right. He had a real game to forget, he was so slow.
You must of been watching another game then, to say one was much slower than the other is just bazaar. The forwards didn't do a good enough job of clearing to give either consistantly quick ball. That's not the fault of the either of the 9's.

The old "you must have watched a different game" Rolling Eyes

Heaven forbid a Tigers player is criticised but Youngs did not play well. It's bizarre not bazaar....I think the latter is something to do with shopping which is probably not that relevant.

Agree to disagree on Youngs, you lot can be so precious sometimes thumbsup

by BigTrevsbigmac Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:55 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:England off a poor RWC with a new coach in the post for 5 minutes, go away to the wild north and get a 2 – 0 try win against an improving Scotland. Sounds like job done to me.

Not an unusual first game of the 6Ns in that it was a tight scrappy affair. However, the win is probably more important than the performance.
I think this was England's hardest fixture in the tournament the way the games fall. Momentum is key.

by nathan Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:53 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
nathan wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I honestly can't believe you thought Youngs played better than Youngs Nathan.

I actually prefer Youngs to Care but Youngs barely put a foot right. He had a real game to forget, he was so slow.
You must of been watching another game then, to say one was much slower than the other is just bazaar. The forwards didn't do a good enough job of clearing to give either consistantly quick ball. That's not the fault of the either of the 9's.

The old "you must have watched a different game"

Heaven forbid a Tigers player is criticised but Youngs did not play well. It's bizarre not bazaar....I think the latter is something to do with shopping which is probably not that relevant.

Agree to disagree on Youngs, you lot can be so precious sometimes

I would honestly say if I thought he was far worse than care, I won't stick up for a tigers player just because I'm a tigers fan - it's a bit weak of you saying that because I have a different opinion and one that a few others on here agree with.

Yeah you know my spelling is crap and the auto correct in this iPad is even worse.

by eirebilly Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:58 am

I have always thought (at international level) that Care plays better with Farrell at 10 and Young's with Ford. Just seemed a little unbalanced there.

Ford and Farrell just don't work in the midfield so me for its either one or the other but not both. Farrell also has to do something to control his petulance, he is too prone to brainfarts.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:59 am

I don't think he was much worse, he was just worse, he didn't play well. I've found the Tigers fans the most precious on these boards actually, hence the constant bickering when I ever mention one of their players.

Beshocked would obviously top this list but he's a lone soldier....a wolf in the wilderness...and he lives in own little world where he's always right.

by eirebilly Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:02 am

Oh and one more thing. I hope that will be the last time we see Lacey refereeing an international match. He was truly woeful to both teams. Neither Scotland or England players knew what a large proportion of his rulings were. He was also extremely dismissive of Hartley every time he questioned any of his rulings, it was as if he did not realise that Hartley is now the captain of England...

Completely ruined what could have been a very good rugby game.

by RuggerRadge2611 Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:12 am

Firstly congratulations England and good luck for the rest of the tournament. Your pack was solid and didn't get blown away at the breakdown as I had predicted. I think around the 30 minute mark, one breakdown in isolation was a symbol for the whole match as a jackaling Hardie was hammered by a great ruck clear out by Haskell.

From a Scottish perspective I'm bitterly disappointed. I think Russel made some poor kicking decisions and we were dire at chasing our own kicks. I think both sides are better than that performance yesterday suggested and I think both will have to improve to make a mark on the tournament.

England fans should be happy though, that was a tough opener and with Italy up next you guys have the potential to really generate some momentum.

I'm dreading our trip to Cardiff next weekend.

Like I said we have a lot of room for improvement and despite the win I think that England side under Jones can be very very good.

All the best for the rest of the tourney lads. Hug

by gregortree Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:13 am

Lacey's calls confused me a few times....I listened carefully for the commentary team to enlighten me .....but they seemed not to know either.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:17 am

Agree on Lacey, he was all over the place. The Cole clear out a prime example, I was completely lost with that one.

by R!skysports Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:20 am

Those a that keep saying that Scotland were favourite or it was a tough game etc

I would think again. This was a wooden spoon performance by Scotland from the team that won zero last year

We were not good at the World Cup. We played one good game against against Australia by were terrible in the group stages expect a couple of halfs against poor teams. We should not have got out the group as should have lost against Samoa who were humped by everyone

Scotland. I expect the wooden spoon again

by eirebilly Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:29 am

Riskysports wrote:

Scotland. I expect the wooden spoon again

How much of this statement is based on yesterday's Italian performance?

by nathan Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:32 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think he was much worse, he was just worse, he didn't play well. I've found the Tigers fans the most precious on these boards actually, hence the constant bickering when I ever mention one of their players.

Beshocked would obviously top this list but he's a lone soldier....a wolf in the wilderness...and he lives in own little world where he's always right.

But you said "Care wasn't great but Youngs was really bad." I disagree with that and thought he was better.

Bickering! It's a flipping discussion board, no need to get in a arse just because someone disagrees with you. You are starting to sound and more and more like beshocked.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:40 am

nathan wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think he was much worse, he was just worse, he didn't play well. I've found the Tigers fans the most precious on these boards actually, hence the constant bickering when I ever mention one of their players.

Beshocked would obviously top this list but he's a lone soldier....a wolf in the wilderness...and he lives in own little world where he's always right.
But you said "Care wasn't great but Youngs was really bad." I disagree with that and thought he was better.

Bickering! It's a flipping discussion board, no need to get in a arse just because someone disagrees with you. You are starting to sound and more and more like beshocked.

I'm not getting in an arse lol. Lets agree to disagree thumbsup

by R!skysports Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:44 am

eirebilly wrote:
Riskysports wrote:

Scotland. I expect the wooden spoon again

How much of this statement is based on yesterday's Italian performance?

Both our performance over the last 10 years and italys

by eirebilly Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:50 am

I am not sure that Scotland's performance yesterday should now see them as favourites for the wooden spoon. It was the first match that was refereed poorly allowing neither side to get much momentum. I do expect Scotland to improve. I still believe that Scotland will win two matches this 6N.

by nathan Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:52 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
nathan wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I don't think he was much worse, he was just worse, he didn't play well. I've found the Tigers fans the most precious on these boards actually, hence the constant bickering when I ever mention one of their players.

Beshocked would obviously top this list but he's a lone soldier....a wolf in the wilderness...and he lives in own little world where he's always right.
But you said "Care wasn't great but Youngs was really bad." I disagree with that and thought he was better.

Bickering! It's a flipping discussion board, no need to get in a arse just because someone disagrees with you. You are starting to sound and more and more like beshocked.

I'm not getting in an arse lol. Lets agree to disagree

by yappysnap Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:52 am

Well done to England, a good win. Lots to work on for the team though.

The scrum was a bit shaky.

9-13 totally didn't work

Farrell had a poor day kicking and I counted 3 potentially high tackles as well as that shove. Can he not tackle at waist height for some reason?

The English attack barely appeared, we didn't get through phases and there was no momentum.

Biggest thing for me is should we change our 12 again??

by **RDW** Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:59 am

Yesterday was bitterly disappointing but I still think we have a chance of getting 2 wins (italy and France) and I've said from the start that would be a satisfactory tournament given how god awful our 6N history is.

Those games are by no means guaranteed though and I'm dreading the next two games.

How can't we score against England at Murrayfield ffs?? What makes it worse is I've been at all those feckin games since 2004!!

by nathan Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:59 am

I do feel Eddie has undone the work Lancaster did, hopefully it will be to build it up into something bigger

by **LondonTiger** Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:01 am

I must have read about a dozen reports on the game now (and did watch the recording before I went to bed). Most of those reports suggest England looked sharper with Youngs on. Now I feel much of that was down to Englands bench overall being better and Scotland tiring. However Youngs was offering a threat round the fringes, tended to move the ball quicker and was passing better out to Ford - putting the ball in front of his former clubmate rather than making him stop. Ford looked better because of this.

However Care should, imo, keep the shirt for Italy. I woudl perhaps make four changes. Launchbury looked fat and disinterested - perhaps it is time to give Itoje a start - though it should be noted that Lawes was excellent when he came on.

The back row did not work, Haskell was a tackle machine but was poor at the breakdown. Yet again it seemed like cole was our only man winning turnovers. I would really consider starting Clifford AND Kvesic.

Finally the 10/12 axis did non seem to work and something needs to be done.

I doubt Jones will make many changes to the team, but I woudl quite like to see:

Marler, Hartley, Cole, Lawes, Kruis, Clifford, Kvesic, BillyV, Care, Farrell, Nowell, ANO, JJ, Watson, Brown

George, Mako, Brookes, Itoje, Robshaw, Youngs, Ford, Daly

by EWT Spoons Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:11 am

God that was a poor game wasn't it!

Anyway first up, congratulations England, better team won on the day. Your scrum looked pretty solid throughout, and whilst I'm not convinced by farrell at 12 I thought he did ok.

Scotland, jesus wept we were poor, yes some of that was down to a solid English defence, but we just looked to have no creativity or for that matter the ability to hold onto the ball. Our passing was slow and ponderous and whilst I think Majestic83 posted a good analysis further up, I'm not sure changing our wingers would make a difference. They rarely got the ball, and when they did it took so long to get to them the English defence was ready.

We had too many players out of form or just coming back from injury in this game and it really showed. If we play like that against Wales we're going to see a cricket score. We need to see more intensity & speed from the players, they looked like they were playing by numbers and it really wasn't working for them.

All in all not a great performance by us. Not taking anything away from England though. You can only beat what's in front of you and your team did that.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:15 am

I'd like to see Mako and Clifford start and bring Itoje and Daly to the bench. Just important to get a good performance, more prominance to the backs and obviously the win.

by EWT Spoons Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:17 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Yesterday was bitterly disappointing but I still think we have a chance of getting 2 wins (italy and France) and I've said from the start that would be a satisfactory tournament given how god awful our 6N history is.

Those games are by no means guaranteed though and I'm dreading the next two games.

How can't we score against England at Murrayfield ffs?? What makes it worse is I've been at all those feckin games since 2004!!

Not sure what you reckon, but I think we looked nervous when we had an opportunity. Look at finn kicking the ball away from that interception. Or how when we got to the English 22 and dropped the ball/knocked on repeatedly. Even the drop goal attempt, it just seemed like we had panicked because we hadn't scored, so gave up trying and took the easiest option, which was also poor.

This mental issue has been with us for years and I think we saw it again yesterday.

by No 7&1/2 Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:19 am

beshocked wrote:Who knows? George and a open side might have been better.

Can't just think of one game, need to think of the bigger picture too.

It was noticeable when Georgw came on for Hartley the scrum improved.

by thomh Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:22 am

I think I remember Jones making a point of saying that he didn't think we'd need a pacy back row to win at Murrayfield, so it could be that Haskell/Robshaw was a one-off selection and he plans to start Clifford next week. Otherwise I'd stick with the same starting XV and bring Ifoje and Daly onto the bench. However highly you rate Goode, 10/15 cover seem a tad unnecessary with Farrel, Nowell and Watson already playing elsewhere in the backline.

by robbo277 Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:31 am

We could win a Grand Slam with an unchanged lineup and you wouldn't be able to convince me that those 15 players should start the first test against Aussie this summer.

It's a shame that we've had two poor games to follow up a poor NH world cup. Skill levels were low and errors were high all round. England were the best team on show yesterday, but they achieved that by limiting their gameplan and doing the basics right. That the commentators got in such a fluster about Mako throwing a wrap around pass for the Nowell try shows just how low the expectations of our skill levels are. I read something about Moody's offload against France that our commentators also went wild for, but Fitzpatrick and the Kiwi contingent just expect that players should be able to do that, regardless of their shirt number.

For England, if we want to go wide we need more pace in the back row, and I'd consider the positions of both Robshaw and Haskell long term. I'd much rather give Clifford his first start against Italy if possible, so I'd bring him in for Robshaw this week and possibly even bring Kvesic onto the bench.

12 is more of a conundrum. The kicking game and the defence worked, so on that basis we could keep it as is until we get Manu and Slade back fit and reassess.

I thought Launchbury was poor but I'm not sure if it wasn't just a oneoff. Lawes was good when he came on and obviously there is Itoje as well, but I'd be tempted to give Launchbury another go.

I'd also get Daly on the bench for Goode as it gives us more options to change the game. Plus his form merits more of a look.

Other than that I wouldn't make any changes. Just give these guys some confidence to keep winning and develop the performance.

by lostinwales Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:31 am

Thought Marler did pretty well. Mako was great when he came on but I can see the point about when to bring him into the game.

Cole was good. At least one really good turnover and a menace at the breakdown/ solid in the scrum. Can't ask for more.

From what I have read I do wonder a bit if Haskell's prime job at the breakdown was just to take out the scottish jackler

Generally defense looked strong. The only time I actually thought that Scotland might score a try was late in the 2nd half when Billy was in the ruck and somehow(!) the ball squirted forward out the side. It's not that Scotland didn't have other moments but that was pretty much the only one which looked dangerous. Still, England also had something similar up the other end late on in the 2nd half which also failed.

Other thing that was pleasing to see is that Watson looked more physical than he has in the past and looked safer defensively (not that he had much work either way).

by RubyGuby Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:33 am

Solid win for England and lots to build on. Eddie will rightly be pleased and so he should be. Scotland looked underpowered and lacked composure with ball in hand and their 9 and 10 are too ponderous. England should kick on and build nicely in the 6 nations. For a team that has to rely on penaltys I can't believe the Scots don't have someone who can kick the ball between the posts from the oppos 10 metre line. Duncan should have come on as you left 9 relatively easy points out there and Russell wasn't offering anything thumbsup

by Sgt_Pooly Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:33 am

Haskell did what he does well, tackle hard and carry. He's never going to be that jackal over the ball that we clamor for.

Robshaw will be moved on soon enough, he just lacks the gas required.

I'd like to see Haskell/Kvesic play together next week and carry on bringing Clifford through to play 6 from the bench.

by **LondonTiger** Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:44 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Also, Mike Brown passed more than our 12 or our 13. And Danny Care ran with the ball only once (Youngs 3 times), a stark comparison to how he would play for Club.

Same as Farrell I think, one more than Joseph. However Brown had a lot more ball than the other two and his default option was to run into contact and go to ground. His passes tended to be before he ran - so just occasionly I would like him to consider passing to the wingers when he is at pace and they have a bit of space.

I was bemused by the way Care played - I assume to management orders. In the main he was like a wigglesworth clone and nothing like playing to his own strengths or to the way we were told to expect. Best box kicking he has done for England mind.

by **LondonTiger** Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:45 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Who knows? George and a open side might have been better.

Can't just think of one game, need to think of the bigger picture too.

It was noticeable when Georgw came on for Hartley the scrum improved.

Jamie George played for less than four minutes

by Seagultaf Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:48 am

Scotland went back to the side they were before that quarter final against Austrailia, so you have to wonder were Scotalns good in that match or were Austrailia poor?

Scotland played two 7s and England played two 6s, so not surprisingly that well known Ebbw Vale boy, Billy had a field day. I was surprised that Scotland did not win so many turnovers though, I guess it's difficult when the momentum is with the other side?

As a neutral, I was again frustrated to see England being allowed to collapse Scotland's driving maul but Scotland being penalised time and agin for doing the same thing. If the referee's are incapable of officiating this part of the game then go back to the laws and make any player in front of the ball carrier off side!

I agree that Farrell continues to be a liability, I lost count of the high hits and no arm tackles, and that petulant push was just stupid. He is too talented to be lost to English Rugby but a spell back with his club may cause him to grow up a little.

by RubyGuby Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:50 am

[/quote]

[/quote]

Jamie George played for less than four minutes[/quote]

So did Finn Russell thumbsup

by thomh Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:01 am

LondonTiger wrote:

I was bemused by the way Care played - I assume to management orders. In the main he was like a wigglesworth clone and nothing like playing to his own strengths or to the way we were told to expect. Best box kicking he has done for England mind.

Probably just down to how the game was going more than anything. If our ball carriers had been getting over the gainline regularly and leaving space around the fringes then it may have been different.

by RuggerRadge2611 Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:20 am

Also as a card carrying member of the front row union, Mako, take a bow for that superb pass for nowells try!! thumbsup

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