England v Scotland 6N Championship Saturday 4th February 2023

England v Scotland
Twickenham Stadium
London

Calcutta Cup & 6 Nations Championship

Saturday 4th February 2023

Kick Off - 16.45



Well here we go again, The Auld Enemies meet up in their first games of the 6N to play for the Calcutta Cup, just the same as last year, except at a different stadium.

Time was, Scotland rocking up at Twickenham was pretty much a certain defeat, but we have won and drawn on our last two trips down south, so maybe HQ does not hold the same fear for us as it once did.


First games of the 6N can of course be a bit of a lottery, when form goes out of the window. Both sides though, could only be described as having patchy form in the first place, with England playing badly enough in the autumn to manage to get their coach the sack and Scotland hardly setting the heather alight either. So a hard one to call.

England under a new coach, have everything to prove and the players have world cup squad places on their minds. A big ask for a new squad under new coaching to immediately get what the new regime wants straight away.

Scotland are perhaps a lot more settled than they have been arriving for recent tournaments and the polemic between the coach, Townsend and the star playmaker, Russell seems to have simmered right down and has the making of a fine romance at the moment, can't live with each other, can't live without. Townsend is also probably playing for his job as well, as his contract has not been renewed post WC either. He says he would consider staying on, but whether he gets the chance will likely depend on a very good tournament from this perennially under performing side, albeit one that can pull off big wins on their day.


Home advantage for this fixture is still massive though and Scotland's depth will be sorely tested going into the competition with some key injuries, so the bookies money probably still rests with England. A close and exciting game though hopefully and I have got a vested interest as I am going!


My guess at the Scotland team:

1. Schoeman
2. Brown
3. Nel
4. Gray R
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie - capt
7. Crosbie
8. Fagerson M
9. Horne
10. Russell
11. DVDM
12. Tuipolotu
13. Harris
14. Steyn
15. Kinghorn


Subs

Sutherland
Turner
Fagerson Z
Skinner
Watson
White
Jones H
Smith

Blamire and Slade out, George and Watson in.

It's going to be an interesting selection in the backs.. or possibly a very conservative one.

My stab at the team

1. Schoeman, 2. Turner, 3. Fagerson
4. R Gray, 5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie, 7. Crosbie
8. Fagerson
9. Price, 10. Russell
12. Tuipilotu, 13. Harris
11. VDM 15. Hogg 14. Maitland

16. Brown, 17. Sutherland, 18. Nel, 19. J Gray, 20. Christie 21. White 22. Healy 23. Redpath

I think Toonie will reward his Saracens players for being top and hope that their EP experience will be useful. Stick with Price. White bench. Cap Healy who I think he rates highly. Crosbie to start, Christie bench, Watson return vs Wales. Kinghorn if VDM is not fit. Smith if Hogg is not fit.

England cannot possibly favoured. New coaches, 5 new players, some old players who shouldn't be there, new game plan, all to be put right in the span of a couple of weeks. I just hope the England squad can emerge from the Calcutta Cup match with their pride not too severely damaged (excepting Farrell who may not have any.....).

doctor_grey wrote:England cannot possibly favoured.  New coaches, 5 new players, some old players who shouldn't be there, new game plan, all to be put right in the span of a couple of weeks.  I just hope the England squad can emerge from the Calcutta Cup match with their pride not too severely damaged (excepting Farrell who may not have any.....).    

I don't think there will ever be a time in my lifetime when Scotland are favourites at Twickenham!

I think a 25 pt win for England.

We're doomed I tell you. Doomed!

If Scotland were heading into the 6N on better form I'd be more confident. We've very much has a year of indifference with sky high penalty counts, stupid mistakes, malfunctioning lineout and inconsistent selection.

So who knows how this will go!

No idea about an England squad or how they'll play other than it will be Borthwick style pragmatism and tough to beat.

At a guess;

Genge, George, Cole
Hill, Itoje
Chessum, Dombrandt, Willis
JVP, Farrell
Kelly/Manu, Manu/Lawrence - not sure which way he'll go here
Freeman, Steward, Watson - though OHC or Murley could come in for Freeman

Walker, Vunipola (expect him on after 65 mins), Sinckler (expect him on shortly after half time), Ribbans, Ludlam, Youngs, Smith, Marchant

A new England era A new England coach Selection for this game will be vital to how England's six nations will go.

majesticimperialman wrote:A new England era A new England coach Selection for this game will be vital to how England's six nations will go.

Pressure is on - if England lose this it'll pretty much be a complete disaster.

RDW wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:A new England era A new England coach Selection for this game will be vital to how England's six nations will go.

Pressure is on - if England lose this it'll pretty much be a complete disaster.

Not necessarily, Scotland should be glad they have England first. It might take time for Borthwick to get England playing how he envisions it. He should be looking for the team to improve over the course of the tournament as they bed into the new systems and combinations.

I know we're playing the 'we're not favourites' tag team here but there is no way that Borthwick losing to Scotland at Twickenham in his first game will be anything but a disaster...

doctor_grey wrote:England cannot possibly favoured.  New coaches, 5 new players, some old players who shouldn't be there, new game plan, all to be put right in the span of a couple of weeks.  I just hope the England squad can emerge from the Calcutta Cup match with their pride not too severely damaged (excepting Farrell who may not have any.....).    

Bookmakers giving England around a 10 point advantage and England are 2/9 to win.

I'm not anywhere near as positive on England's chances, particularly with Scotland being very awkward opponents for England in recent years - England have only won one of their last five games v Scotland. It's reminiscent of how Ireland had the wood over England in the mid to late 00s.

My best effort at predicting the England side:

1.Genge 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Hill 6.Isiekwe 7.Earl 8.Dombrandt
9.JvP 10.Farrell 11.Murley 12.Kelly 13.Tuilagi 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.Walker 17.Mako 18.Sinckler 19.Chessum 20.Willis 21.Youngs 22.Smith 23.Marchant

Wing is a guessing game as I could see any of the 4 playing. I'd be happy with any of them playing too. 4 players I rate though I do feel OHC has rougher edges than the other 3. I've a feeling that Borthwick and Sinfield will rate Murley's all round skills, obviously Evans will rate him too so taken a punt on him there.

Losing Lawes and Curry simultaneously are big blows.

I think Slade could have done well in Sinfield's defensive structures and Borthwick's likely tactics too. I was also looking forward to Harris and Slade's scintillating battle of ice vs slightly slower ice.

I'm not sure how to call it at all. Maybe England will see a bounce with the new coaches, suddenly the set-piece is majestically reliable and it all falls into place. Maybe Jamie Ritchie tickles Jonny Hill at the bottom of the first ruck, gets punched in the face and Hill never plays for England again after another minute one red. Genuinely feel anything could happen.

I think it's natural for players to be playing out of their respective shirts in order to impress their new coach. There's no way in this multiverse that Scotland are favourites.

The crucial thing (and I will ask England fans this now) will be how experimental Borthwick will be in his selections. He doesn't have much time to build RWC momentum but at the same time, he will get a pass from the press and fans on anything new he tries now which doesn't really work. Whilst I think it was premature to boot Steady Eddie, I rate Borthwick and I hope he makes this role his own.

There's still unanswered questions on selection and tactics but I can't see any combo losing this game for England.

George Carlin wrote:I think it's natural for players to be playing out of their respective shirts in order to impress their new coach. There's no way in this multiverse that Scotland are favourites.

The crucial thing (and I will ask England fans this now) will be how experimental Borthwick will be in his selections. He doesn't have much time to build RWC momentum but at the same time, he will get a pass from the press and fans on anything new he tries now which doesn't really work. Whilst I think it was premature to boot Steady Eddie, I rate Borthwick and I hope he makes this role his own.

3 years of drudgery and then the last couple the results going down hill it definitely wasn't too early to move Jones on. The real hope for the team now is though that it isn't about the WC and from what the RFU and Borthwick have said all games matter again. I suspect that Borthwick will go with what he feels is his best team, whether everyone else agrees on that I very much doubt, but he's here first to win the Calcutta cup, then the 6Ns.

RDW wrote:I know we're playing the 'we're not favourites' tag team here but there is no way that Borthwick losing to Scotland at Twickenham in his first game will be anything but a disaster...

It might be considered a disaster directly after the game but if there's the aforementioned progression over the tournament it will be overlooked come the finish. If England lose and then show no improvements then different matter entirely.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's still unanswered questions on selection and tactics but I can't see any combo losing this game for England.

You're that confident? I'm not so sure, Scotland have a pretty settled side and have had better of England over last few years. They will also have no fear of England or Twickenham like maybe was case in previous times.

England be fired up for new coach for sure and likes of Earl, OHC etc if picked will be very keen to impress. Home advantage will count for a lot so very hard to call but my virtual fiver is on an England win. I think.

If England lose it won't be a disaster if England pick the best team, play really well but end up losing to a better team on day. It wouldn't be great but if signs of improvement are there in team and tactics I could live with it. If someone, let's pick a name out of a hat say Hill does his usual stupid trick of giving away stupid pens or gets carded for retaliation etc I'd be a lot less forgiving should Eng lose.

Anyway, who knows which is what makes sport and 6N so great.

mountain man wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's still unanswered questions on selection and tactics but I can't see any combo losing this game for England.

You're that confident? I'm not so sure, Scotland have a pretty settled side and have had better of England over last few years. They wil also have no fear of England or Twickenham like maybe was case in previous times.

England be fired up for new coach for sure and likes of Earl, OHC etc if picked will be very keen to impress. Home advantage will count for a lot so very hard to call but my virtual fiver is on an England win. I think.

Yeah tbh. The injuries we've picked up have made me more optimistic too as it forces Borthwick into some changes which make us stronger. There's going to be more focus on our scrum and lineout, that alone will be a huge help. The other factor is Evans; our attack isn't going to be trying to play 3D chess.

In a perverse way I'm glad Slade is out as it forces Borthwick to change up the centres. I certainly don't wish him injured I'll make that clear but we could see JvP Farrell Manu Lawrence which is what I'd go for.
Scrum needs sorting, certainly after poor showing in autumn. Line out not a concern, Itoje still a major player there.

I just want what I consider the best team, not like I'm going round to Ben Youngs house to Misery him.

Lineout fine, though given we have gone with 3 locks I'd want so much more pressure on the opposition throw than we have for the last 3 years. Driving maul has frankly been well below par. We should be scoring a lot more off that, and would not be surprised to see that come right to fore on Saturday.

Going to be a tight game. Even with our injuries to Zander and rushed return for wings/opensides, what we have available is not looking too bad. Unless Kinghorn is playing wing, I do not want him in the 23 as we have a better full back in Smith and a better FH in Healy.

England are favourites and I would assume Borthwick will focus on the basics like he did at Leicester. Strong at the set piece and have a physical backline. The type of teams that tend to do well against Scotland get on top of us at the scrum and we have an ancient Nel/recovering Zander trying to hold up the tighthead side.

I think the game will have a red card. I would say England are the more likely team to receive it, trying too hard to impress a new coach who wants to have them impose themselves on Scotland. Unfortunately, as a Scottish fan, I have seen too many brain fades to be confident it won't be us.

So we have one team looking to impress a new coach and possibly more matches and another who will be trying to save a coach his job after the world cup so it will certainly be an open game .

I've noticed that nobody has put Richie Gray in which surprises me as he is a key player in our line out.

Highland Shaun wrote:So we have one team looking to impress a new coach and possibly more matches and another who will be trying to save a coach his job after the world cup so it will certainly be an open game .

I've noticed that nobody has put Richie Gray in which surprises me as he is a key player in our line out.

I did actually haha. He’s been on good form and a useful lineout operator. Gilchrist is so consistent I think he has to be starting with one of the Grays.

Highland Shaun wrote:So we have one team looking to impress a new coach and possibly more matches and another who will be trying to save a coach his job after the world cup so it will certainly be an open game .

Gregor is already gone after the world cup isn't he?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Highland Shaun wrote:So we have one team looking to impress a new coach and possibly more matches and another who will be trying to save a coach his job after the world cup so it will certainly be an open game .

Gregor is already gone after the world cup isn't he?

Not entirely clear, though the smart money would say so.

He is certainly out of contract and has not (yet) been offered another. He is also on record as saying how much he likes coaching Scotland and would consider carrying on.

If he does want to carry on, a very good 6N for Scotland is essential you would imagine.

England by 42 points. Easy. No point in Scotland turning up.

1. Schoeman
2. Brown
3. Nel
4. Gray R
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie - capt
7. Crosbie
8. Fagerson M
9. Horne
10. Russell
11. DVDM
12. Tuipolotu
13. Harris Shug
14. Steyn
15. Kinghorn tigertattie or Hogg, who is very prominent in all the SRU FB posts this week.


Subs

Sutherland
Turner
Fagerson Z
Skinner
Watson
White
Jones H
Smith

Shug is that good he's in twice.

Time for the Import Kings to show England what we're made of. I say we lose by 41.

BigGee wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Highland Shaun wrote:So we have one team looking to impress a new coach and possibly more matches and another who will be trying to save a coach his job after the world cup so it will certainly be an open game .

Gregor is already gone after the world cup isn't he?

Not entirely clear, though the smart money would say so.

He is certainly out of contract and has not (yet) been offered another. He is also on record as saying how much he likes coaching Scotland and would consider carrying on.

If he does want to carry on, a very good 6N for Scotland is essential you would imagine.

True. I'd assumed because negotiations hadn't started yet that the SRU were off talking to other options and would announce something at a mutually agreeable time with Townsend. In an ideal world his successor would join up with the squad and be an advisor/assistant/consultant whatever for the world cup and then takeover afterwards.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

BigGee wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Highland Shaun wrote:So we have one team looking to impress a new coach and possibly more matches and another who will be trying to save a coach his job after the world cup so it will certainly be an open game .

Gregor is already gone after the world cup isn't he?

Not entirely clear, though the smart money would say so.

He is certainly out of contract and has not (yet) been offered another. He is also on record as saying how much he likes coaching Scotland and would consider carrying on.

If he does want to carry on, a very good 6N for Scotland is essential you would imagine.

True. I'd assumed because negotiations hadn't started yet that the SRU were off talking to other options and would announce something at a mutually agreeable time with Townsend. In an ideal world his successor would join up with the squad and be an advisor/assistant/consultant whatever for the world cup and then takeover afterwards.

Yes, i would certainly hope the SRU are sounding out other options.

Now that Borthwick is in place and Gatland back at Wales (hard to see him not staying on), Scotland remains one of the last pieces of the European jigsaw for aspiring international coaches.

So much now depends on the NZ appointment and that will slso depend on what kind of WC they have, except anything short of winning it for them will be seen as a failure.

Johnny Gray, who played for Exeter on Saturday, having missed quite a few games recently, comes ionto the Scotland squad in place of Jamie Hodgson.

I doubt he will feature this weekend, but good to know he is fit again and available. Hard to believe that we won't get an injury or two to a second row as the tournament goes on.

Kelly is out too

jimbopip wrote:England by 42 points. Easy. No point in Scotland turning up.

1. Schoeman
2. Brown
3. Nel
4. Gray R
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie - capt
7. Crosbie
8. Fagerson M
9. Horne
10. Russell
11. DVDM
12. Tuipolotu
13. Harris Shug
14. Steyn
15. Kinghorn tigertattie or Hogg, who is very prominent in all the SRU FB posts this week.


Subs

Sutherland
Turner
Fagerson Z
Skinner
Watson
White
Jones H
Smith

No Stafford McDowall??? You disappoint me.

Agreed though. This one is over before a ball is kicked (and Borthwick will be instructing an awful lot of kicking). I look forward to seeing the White Boks in action. England to win by 98 points.

Guys we're being pretty pessimistic here about Scotland's chances - they have a new coach, unsettled team and are coming into the 6N on a run iof poor form.

England by 28

RDW wrote:Guys we're being pretty pessimistic here about Scotland's chances - they have a new coach, unsettled team and are coming into the 6N on a run iof poor form.

England by 28

Only if its 28-0 with England reduced to 14 after the 1st minute (Farrell no-arms tackle obvs).

My prediction: 9 - 9 another Eng/Sco classic we haven't seen in a while.

jimbopip wrote:England by 42 points. Easy. No point in Scotland turning up.

1. Schoeman
2. Brown
3. Nel
4. Gray R
5. Gilchrist
6. Ritchie - capt
7. Crosbie
8. Fagerson M
9. Horne
10. Russell
11. DVDM
12. Tuipolotu
13. Harris Shug
14. Steyn
15. Kinghorn tigertattie or Hogg, who is very prominent in all the SRU FB posts this week.


Subs

Sutherland
Turner
Fagerson Z
Skinner
Watson
White
Jones H
Smith

What kind of person are you - trying to convince the poor English, those huddled masses, the downtrodden great unwashed, that there is a chance. As long as England have Farrell and Jonny Hill, England will be constrained to the nether reaches. All I can see are those manly men from el norte charging over the hill and leaving a poor and broken Borthwick wondering why he left the friendly confines of Welford Road.
Scotland by 50
Scotland by 3 if Kinghorn plays.

lostinwales wrote:Kelly is out too

Porter has been called up, which means the squad centres are Lawrence, Marchant, Tuilagi and Porter. Telegraph says Smith and Farrell have been training together, so that axis could return.

Telegraph says Smith and Farrell have been training together, so that axis could return.

Well I think I can sum up my feeling by this succinct phrase : FFS.

9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.Malins 12.Farrell 13.Slade 14.Manu 15.Daly

Injuries have robbed us of a reaction from 7.5 that would've been more entertaining than the game.

Don't understand the hate at this moment mm. I was very sceptical when it was tried initially by Lancaster and then Jones despite the combo in u20s but it worked well, particularly when paired with Tuilagi and Joseph. We still have Tuilagi and there's more than a touch of JJ in Marchant's style. I think some of it comes from Smith and Farrell never really clicking but that was the case with Ford and Farrell post WC too; perhaps this overly complicated attack that was apparently going to win us the WC had more than a hand in it?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW wrote:Guys we're being pretty pessimistic here about Scotland's chances - they have a new coach, unsettled team and are coming into the 6N on a run iof poor form.

England by 28

Only if its 28-0 with England reduced to 14 after the 1st minute (Farrell no-arms tackle obvs).

I appreciate most of this is tongue in cheek but there seems to be a growing feeling that no arms tackles are red cards, we even have some people harking back to the SA tackle as to an instance where Farrell escaped a red, just isn't true. Farrell's indiscretions have been high but with the use of arms.

king_carlos wrote:9.Youngs 10.Ford 11.Malins 12.Farrell 13.Slade 14.Manu 15.Daly

Injuries have robbed us of a reaction from 7.5 that would've been more entertaining than the game.

I have been sitting back and thinking phew tbh.

No hate but Smith Farrell at 10 12 just didn't work. I was one who called for it last year but for me there are better options. Farrell is much better at 10 than 12 and likes of Manu is a much better 12 than Farrell.
As for having Youngs at 9, give me strength.

As for all the Scots supporters going for 28/42/98 point win for England well it's not going to happen but it would be quite funny if a card or two for Scotland meant England actually did win big. I think be a tight, tough match but after the faux predictions a massive win be quite amusing.

mountain man wrote:No hate but Smith Farrell at 10 12 just didn't work. I was one who called for it last year but for me there are better options. Farrell is much better at 10 than 12 and likes of Manu is a much better 12 than Farrell.
As for having Youngs at 9, give me strength.

Yeah but that's a part of my point too, in 2020 onwards Ford and Farrell really weren't working either, our whole attack was rubbish, and reliant on defensive mistakes and forwards alone (and then they dried up). I think I've changed my mind slightly over the past couple of weeks and would like to see Tuilagi and Marchant line up with Lawrence on the bench, and it would be those 3 that I would have for midfield, with Smith starting at 10.

Everyone knows my thoughts on Youngs.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:No hate but Smith Farrell at 10 12 just didn't work. I was one who called for it last year but for me there are better options. Farrell is much better at 10 than 12 and likes of Manu is a much better 12 than Farrell.
As for having Youngs at 9, give me strength.

Yeah but that's a part of my point too, in 2020 onwards Ford and Farrell really weren't working either, our whole attack was rubbish, and reliant on defensive mistakes and forwards alone (and then they dried up). I think I've changed my mind slightly over the past couple of weeks and would like to see Tuilagi and Marchant line up with Lawrence on the bench, and it would be those 3 that I would have for midfield, with Smith starting at 10.

Everyone knows my thoughts on Youngs.

So I think we agree, Manu at 12 and Marchant/Lawrence 13. My objection is Smith Farrell at 10 12. I think there's a case to start Farrell at 10 with Smith bench. I cannot see Farrell not in starting XV seeing as he's captain. If need be depending upon how match is going coud then get Smith on at 10 and Farrell 12 as Manu highly unlikely to last 80 mins! Anyway, guess we'll find out the grand plan in a day or so.

So, England looking at big, bruising centres. This means Toonie will counter with Wee Shona and the Hardest Working Man In World Rugby. Blarehorn may as well start at 14 since the ball won't get there at any point. I have a horrible feeling Duhan may be on the other wing; popping up between the centres to crash into whichever two big lumps England pick. What a waste.
Looks like thud and blunder all afternoon.

Can't wait.

jimbopip wrote:So, England looking at big, bruising centres. This means Toonie will counter with Wee Shona and the Hardest Working Man In World Rugby. Blarehorn may as well start at 14 since the ball won't get there at any point. I have a horrible feeling Duhan may be on the other wing; popping up between the centres to crash into whichever two big lumps England pick. What a waste.
Looks like thud and blunder all afternoon.

Can't wait.

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