6N 2016: Ireland v Wales, 7 February

First topic message reminder :

 
IRELAND v WALES
7 February 2016
KO: 15:00 GMT
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on RTE, ITV, FR2, DMAX, BBC(H)

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

123 Played 123
52 Won 67
4 Drawn 4
67 Lost 52
1,365 Points 1,461

B. Recent Form

29 August 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
10 – 16 to Wales

8 August 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
21 – 35 to Ireland

14 March 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 16 to Wales

8 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
26 – 3 to Ireland

2 February 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
22 – 30 to Ireland

C. Teams

IRELAND

S Zebo; A Trimble, J Payne, R Henshaw, K Earls; J Sexton, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best (capt), N White; D Toner, M McCarthy; CJ Stander, T O’Donnell, J Heaslip.

Replacements: S Cronin, J Cronin, T Furlong, D Ryan, R Ruddock, K Marmion, I Madigan, D Kearney.

WALES

G Anscombe; G North, J Davies, J Roberts, T James; D Biggar, G Davies; R Evans, S Baldwin, S Lee, L Charteris, A-W Jones, S Warburton (capt), J Tipuric, T Faletau.

Replacements: K Owens, G Jenkins, T Francis, B Davies, D Lydiate, L Williams, R Priestland, A Cuthbert

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not a straight choice for a lot of these players with options. It's their livelihood not patriotism.

not for the Welsh one's sorry, they chose Wales because they see themselves as being Welsh, and as such only want to play for Wales. Most of the Welsh international players made their fortunes playing in France, England or in Wales on a DC.

The Welsh are different to the rest of the world of course. Think you're being a touch naive.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Many people here will tell you they are Irish not British
Many people here regard Ireland as there country
Many people here carry Irish passports and would never carry British ones

Our political situation is unusual and we accommodate two not one nationality within our Province.
Given this unusual situation it is not unreasonable to understand that sporting wise (soccer is the one exception) Ireland is one country.

If you are going to use the purely political criteria - N.Ireland, England, Wales, Scotland - non of them are sovereign countries

I think that I'll stick to the point that if England, Wales and Scotland compete then so should Northern Ireland. That's not political, it's just a fact.

I appreciate the muddied waters, I appreciate the choice sportsmen and women have, but the fact that there is a choice means that it's not one country.

Therefore, for me, if Irish people can understand that nationality is not necessarily decided by birth and that it can be a choice, those folk are in no position to decry other people around the world making a similar choice.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Cole, Wilson, Thomas, Brookes, Hill, the other (Scottish)Wilson.

Are these ALL first team regulars for their clubs. Also, Cole is already established, and he ain't that good either, Wilson is already established but he is pretty good. I have not here'd of the other sorry.

LordDowlais wrote:
I said earlier that you had a good case with him, although he is not time serving, he has a Welsh grandparent, which I admit is bollox.

You haven't thought that through.

For example, without the Grandparent rule, technically George North could produce a child born in Northampton that wouldn't be able to play for Wales (on his father's side).

LordDowlais wrote:Most of the Welsh international players made their fortunes playing in France, England or in Wales on a DC.

How on earth have you decided that?

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Welsh are different to the rest of the world of course. Think you're being a touch naive.

I am not naive, I just know that Gatland did not convince our players to be Welsh, they chose to be Welsh themselves. You need a serious,  .

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Most of the Welsh international players made their fortunes playing in France, England or in Wales on a DC.

How on earth have you decided that?

Well they did not make their money deciding to let Gatland make their choices for them.

kunu wrote:

I don't think many are under any illusions with regard to there being a border running through the island of Ireland. You said it wasn't contestable that Ireland only acts as a single country in rugby. That's not the case. There may be a choice involved for olympic athletes, but nonetheless, the island of Ireland can and does act as a single country in the competition. Not that any of this is relevant, I just couldn't resist challenging an instance of "none of that is contestable" .

Right. So Ireland acts as a single country for some other sporting events other than rugby. Fair enough.

But the fact that you have to write the word 'single' shows that it isn't one country.

And don't get me started on £14.7m of UK tax payers money being spent on an asset owned by a company based in Dublin.

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Most of the Welsh international players made their fortunes playing in France, England or in Wales on a DC.

How on earth have you decided that?

Well they did not make their money deciding to let Gatland make their choices for them.

My question was on how they 'made their fortunes' and nothing to do with Gatland.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not a straight choice for a lot of these players with options. It's their livelihood not patriotism.

not for the Welsh one's sorry, they chose Wales because they see themselves as being Welsh, and as such only want to play for Wales. Most of the Welsh international players made their fortunes playing in France, England or in Wales on a DC.

So apparently only the Welsh are patriotic ... righttttt

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Welsh are different to the rest of the world of course. Think you're being a touch naive.

I am not naive, I just know that Gatland did not convince our players to be Welsh, they chose to be Welsh themselves. You need a serious,  .

Its not about choosing to be Welsh but choosing to represent Wales, these are different. Does Francis consider himself Welsh? Doubt it. Way of the world for every team.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Most of the Welsh international players made their fortunes playing in France, England or in Wales on a DC.

How on earth have you decided that?

Well they did not make their money deciding to let Gatland make their choices for them.

My question was on how they 'made their fortunes' and nothing to do with Gatland.

OK career choices. They still make more money than the average person.

I don't know what Lord Dowlais is on about at the best of times, but if he claims that Gatland didn't persuade Francis to be Welsh:

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/612080/Tomas-Francis-Wales-England-Rugby-World-Cup-Warren-Gatland-Stuart-Lancaster-Rugby-Union

Maybe he could read that and let us know his thoughts.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Welsh are different to the rest of the world of course. Think you're being a touch naive.

I am not naive, I just know that Gatland did not convince our players to be Welsh, they chose to be Welsh themselves. You need a serious,  .

Its not about choosing to be Welsh but choosing to represent Wales, these are different. Does Francis consider himself Welsh? Doubt it. Way of the world for every team.

Yes but the players you have mentioned, George North, Sam Warburton, they would get offended if you called them English, because they see themselves as Welshmen. I have already agreed with you about Francis.

PhilBB wrote:I don't know what Lord Dowlais is on about at the best of times, but if he claims that Gatland didn't persuade Francis to be Welsh:

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/612080/Tomas-Francis-Wales-England-Rugby-World-Cup-Warren-Gatland-Stuart-Lancaster-Rugby-Union

Maybe he could read that and let us know his thoughts.

I have already agreed about francis, FFS.

7&1/2 is trying to say, player like George North and Toby Faletau and Sam Warburton were convinced to play for Wales by Gatland.

LordDowlais wrote:
7&1/2 is trying to say, player like George North and Toby Faletau and Sam Warburton were convinced to play for Wales by Gatland.

Well, that's bonkers.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
7&1/2 is trying to say, player like George North and Toby Faletau and Sam Warburton were convinced to play for Wales by Gatland.

Well, that's bonkers.

EXACTLY.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Welsh are different to the rest of the world of course. Think you're being a touch naive.

I am not naive, I just know that Gatland did not convince our players to be Welsh, they chose to be Welsh themselves. You need a serious,  .

Its not about choosing to be Welsh but choosing to represent Wales, these are different. Does Francis consider himself Welsh? Doubt it. Way of the world for every team.

Yes but the players you have mentioned, George North, Sam Warburton, they would get offended if you called them English, because they see themselves as Welshmen. I have already agreed with you about Francis.

Unless you know them personally, that's a stupid thing to say. Reality is Sam Warburton has said he sees himself as British.......

True Raven wrote:
Unless you know them personally, that's a stupid thing to say.  Reality is Sam Warburton has said he sees himself as British.......

.... on that tour.

True Raven wrote:Unless you know them personally, that's a stupid thing to say. Reality is Sam Warburton has said he sees himself as British.......

So you agree with 7&1/2 then, these players only play for Wales because Gatland got in there first ?

North and Warburton yes. Didn't say that aboutFaletau. He does target players with dual qualification earlier than England generaloy have. Very good system. I take players comments like Ben Morgans with a pinch of salt. If he had qualified for Wales and England hadn't have wanted him he would have happily played for Wales I'm sure.

LordDowlais wrote:

True Raven wrote:Unless you know them personally, that's a stupid thing to say. Reality is Sam Warburton has said he sees himself as British.......

So you agree with 7&1/2 then, these players only play for Wales because Gatland got in there first ?

When did I say that?

No 7&1/2 wrote:North and Warburton yes.

See, he's off his head, he must be.

And yest you did mention Faletau, earlier on in this debate, I had to tell you he has been here since he was a kid.

True Raven wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

True Raven wrote:Unless you know them personally, that's a stupid thing to say. Reality is Sam Warburton has said he sees himself as British.......

So you agree with 7&1/2 then, these players only play for Wales because Gatland got in there first ?

When did I say that?  

Sorry, it was the impression I got from your post, I do apologise.

We know the residency rules will always get a debate flowing and no country is whiter than white and can say they play pure breds, whatever those are.

Does this debate really need to raise up again?

bedfordwelsh wrote:We know the residency rules will always get a debate flowing and no country is whiter than white and can say they play pure breds, whatever those are.

Does this debate really need to raise up again?

By the popular nature of the replies, it may indicate that it does.

LordDowlais wrote:

True Raven wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

True Raven wrote:Unless you know them personally, that's a stupid thing to say. Reality is Sam Warburton has said he sees himself as British.......

So you agree with 7&1/2 then, these players only play for Wales because Gatland got in there first ?

When did I say that?  

Sorry, it was the impression I got from your post, I do apologise.

They chose to play their rugby in Wales and chose to play for Wales. The option was there for them to play for England and they may have if England had come calling. Gatland didnt persuade them though as they came up through the system.

bedfordwelsh wrote:We know the residency rules will always get a debate flowing and no country is whiter than white and can say they play pure breds, whatever those are.

Does this debate really need to raise up again?

I am not debating residency, I am debating the fact that it was not Warren Gatland who persuaded players like George North, Sam Warburton, Taulupe Faletau to play for Wales, they always wanted to without anybody trying to convince them.

PhilBB wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:We know the residency rules will always get a debate flowing and no country is whiter than white and can say they play pure breds, whatever those are.

Does this debate really need to raise up again?

By the popular nature of the replies, it may indicate that it does.

And most replies are the same old ones with people trying to prove a point on the other when as mentioned we are all as guilty as each other.

LordDowlais wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:We know the residency rules will always get a debate flowing and no country is whiter than white and can say they play pure breds, whatever those are.

Does this debate really need to raise up again?

I am not debating residency, I am debating the fact that it was not Warren Gatland who persuaded players like George North, Sam Warburton, Taulupe Faletau to play for Wales, they always wanted to without anybody trying to convince them.

LD,

How do you know that 100% LD? That can be said about everyone in the past as well but I doubt we know that for def.

bedfordwelsh wrote:
How do you know that 100% LD? That can be said about everyone in the past as well but I doubt we know that for def.

What would you think ?

I accept that it was the case with Thomas Francis, but the others all grew up in Wales and came through the Welsh system, do you reckon they had an eye on a cap for England.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:North and Warburton yes.

See, he's off his head, he must be.

And yest you did mention Faletau, earlier on in this debate, I had to tell you he has been here since he was a kid.

Why off my head? You did.t have to tell me about Faletau, just pointed out hes the only residency qualified player playing for Wales.

Am not saying they did but you can't be sure, what about Ben Morgan he cam through our system for a while but choose his place of birth.

Going back years Stuart Barnes done lot of his early years in the Wales system and captained Wales U20 but choose England.

There no real way of knowing

bedfordwelsh wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:We know the residency rules will always get a debate flowing and no country is whiter than white and can say they play pure breds, whatever those are.

Does this debate really need to raise up again?

By the popular nature of the replies, it may indicate that it does.

And most replies are the same old ones with people trying to prove a point on the other when as mentioned we are all as guilty as each other.

Yes, it's a message board. That's what happens.

LordDowlais wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:
How do you know that 100% LD? That can be said about everyone in the past as well but I doubt we know that for def.

What would you think ?

I accept that it was the case with Thomas Francis, but the others all grew up in Wales and came through the Welsh system, do you reckon they had an eye on a cap for England.

Tomas, not Thomas.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm afraid to say that players will think of their careers. these guys grow up with a parent of either nationality, they have the option you've got to get there early. I think you want your plaeyrs to be overtly Welsh but it's a complicated choice for a lot of young guys. It's not just a case of I'm Welsh, I'm English, I'm Australian. It's what's best for my professional career.

Not for North or Warburton like you seem to think. The system in Wales made them into professional rugby players. When both were playing well for their regional team they got capped. You can probably add Faletau to that as well. It really is that simple.

You're right about Francis (that's the only time where you've been right so far), but we poached him from Exeter not England.

bedfordwelsh wrote:We know the residency rules will always get a debate flowing and no country is whiter than white and can say they play pure breds, whatever those are.

Does this debate really need to raise up again?

No it doesn't. But the English are obsessed with it if we have to discuss Wales players who could have played for another country!

LordDowlais wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:
How do you know that 100% LD? That can be said about everyone in the past as well but I doubt we know that for def.

What would you think ?

I accept that it was the case with Thomas Francis, but the others all grew up in Wales and came through the Welsh system, do you reckon they had an eye on a cap for England.

In answer to your second question I think certainly not. Just like Tom Heathcoat and Steve Shingler didn't grow up dreaming of representing Scotland.

It should be noted that PhilBB is clearly a provocateur of the highest degree and isn't worth the debate. For those who are actually worth informing, the Irish Rugby Football Union predates the formation of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Maybe some of the following history surrounding it would be worth reading:

http://www.irishrugby.ie/irfu/history/history.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rugby_Football_Union#History

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:North and Warburton yes.

See, he's off his head, he must be.

And yest you did mention Faletau, earlier on in this debate, I had to tell you he has been here since he was a kid.

Why off my head? You did.t have to tell me about Faletau, just pointed out hes the only residency qualified player playing for Wales.

U20s rugby is what tied him to Wales. Out of curiosity where did the Vunipola's play their age grade rugby? I'm not sure where they went after their New Panteg days where they played alongside Faletau.

No 7&1/2 wrote:LD, Faletau qualifies on residency yes. Perfectly fine to do so, see countless examples. Like I said you'd be hard pressed to find someone who finds that example similar to Hughes who will qualify for England in June (I believe) even though the qualification is the same.

The North thing is true as well but he also qualified for England. Gatland was very keen to get him capped to stop his head being turned. I'm not sure how either point is silly.

Why would George North have played for England?

He grew up in Wales, played all his youth rugby in Wales. Now plays in England because he wants to be closer to his girlfriend.

I think it was money Maes... Plus looking at his form back then a change of club was probably needed in order to 'freshen up.' Not sure what the incentive was for him to renew his contract, unless he wants to continue to be part of a team that can win trophies, which Scarlets still can't do by the looks of it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It should be noted that PhilBB is clearly a provocateur of the highest degree and isn't worth the debate. For those who are actually worth informing, the Irish Rugby Football Union predates the formation of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Maybe some of the following history surrounding it would be worth reading:

http://www.irishrugby.ie/irfu/history/history.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Rugby_Football_Union#History

Yes - it was created when Ireland was part of the United Kingdom.......

Err.... I'll get me coat now.

PhilBB is a regular contributor to one of the Welsh region's blogs, isn't he? - the name looks familiar

mikey_dragon wrote:I think it was money Maes... Plus looking at his form back then a change of club was probably needed in order to 'freshen up.' Not sure what the incentive was for him to renew his contract, unless he wants to continue to be part of a team that can win trophies, which Scarlets still can't do by the looks of it.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/13/george-north-wales-lions-rugby-union

"I'm also 200 miles closer to Becks [his girlfriend Becky James, the world champion sprint cyclist] and it's much easier getting to her in Manchester"

Well he was forced out of the Scarlets so he had to go somewhere, I guess closer to your missus is the logical idea

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I think it was money Maes... Plus looking at his form back then a change of club was probably needed in order to 'freshen up.' Not sure what the incentive was for him to renew his contract, unless he wants to continue to be part of a team that can win trophies, which Scarlets still can't do by the looks of it.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/13/george-north-wales-lions-rugby-union

"I'm also 200 miles closer to Becks [his girlfriend Becky James, the world champion sprint cyclist] and it's much easier getting to her in Manchester"

Still I'm not so sure if we can surmise it was the reason that he went to Saints. Did he not also turn down a hefty offer from Scarlets before they tried selling him, can anyone confirm?

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:North and Warburton yes.

See, he's off his head, he must be.

And yest you did mention Faletau, earlier on in this debate, I had to tell you he has been here since he was a kid.

Why off my head? You did.t have to tell me about Faletau, just pointed out hes the only residency qualified player playing for Wales.

U20s rugby is what tied him to Wales. Out of curiosity where did the Vunipola's play their age grade rugby? I'm not sure where they went after their New Panteg days where they played alongside Faletau.

I don't understand your point. Do you think that players can just move to any country they like, play for their U20s then qualify for that country outright? Faletau qualified through residency, ie wasn't born in Wales and doesn't have a parent or grandparent from the country. As I mentioned above I doubt any sane person thinks Faletau shouldn't qualify. The Vunipolas came through the England U20s and both qualified through residency. Again better for me than say someone like Waldrom who qualified through family or Hughes who will qualify the same way as the Vunipolas.

maestegmafia wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:LD, Faletau qualifies on residency yes. Perfectly fine to do so, see countless examples. Like I said you'd be hard pressed to find someone who finds that example similar to Hughes who will qualify for England in June (I believe) even though the qualification is the same.

The North thing is true as well but he also qualified for England. Gatland was very keen to get him capped to stop his head being turned. I'm not sure how either point is silly.

Why would George North have played for England?

He grew up in Wales, played all his youth rugby in Wales. Now plays in England because he wants to be closer to his girlfriend.

Could have had his head turned like many players over the years (and is still happening now). As much as we'd like to think all the players who represent our countries have that running through them like a stick of rock it's not that simple. If Wales hadn't have been intetested in North at that time and England had been are you 100% sure he'd have said I'll wait for my chance? Not many players do nowadays.