The Ireland Squad Announcement Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the discussion on the 'Ireland 2016 Squad' thread which can be found here.

Ireland squad has been announced. It contains four uncapped players- Stuart McCloskey, Ultan Dillane, Josh van der Flier and CJ Stander. However there is no room for Garry Ringrose. Mike Ross, Cian Healy and Chris Henry have all been omitted due to injury but may feature later as they return to fitness in their provincial set-ups.

Ireland Squad RBS 6 Nations 2016 Rounds 1 & 2

Forwards (19)

Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) Captain
Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
James Cronin (Dolphin/Munster)
Ultan Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)*
Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) Vice Captain
Rob Herring (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Mike McCarthy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Martin Moore (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
Tommy O'Donnell (UL Bohemians/Munster)
Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
CJ Stander (Munster)*
Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)*
Nathan White (Connacht)

Backs (16)

Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
David Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
Kieran Marmion (Corinthians/Connacht)
Luke Marshall (Ballymena/Ulster)
Stuart McCloskey (McCloskey/Ulster)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
Jared Payne (Ulster)
Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster)
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Con/Munster)

*Denotes uncapped player

[Notch]

Hilarious reading munsterfans having to get used to CJ being picked after getting themselves into a lather this morning with a yarn that he was going to be left out.

Happy with that squad given the injuries situation

Pre-emptive outrages the funniest kind of outrage!

[marty2086]

CJ could move to 6.

I have a feeling the South African native will start at 6 with Heaslip at 8

And SOB to 7 no doubt

[GoodinTightSpaces]

CJ could move to 6.

I have a feeling the South African native will start at 6 with Heaslip at 8

And SOB to 7 no doubt

i would suspect so. good back row with the south african and the two leinstermen!

[thebandwagonsociety]

You mean the 3 irishmen

[thebandwagonsociety]

Front row options look solid.
Strange that Ulster only have 2 representatives in the forwards squad, and both are hookers.
Feels like there is one too many hookers picked for the squad?
Props seem like solid options.
Locks look a bit weak for a 6Ns.
Backrow options should be solid but the cap count will be very low it SOB and Heaslip ain't in there, will start to look very inexperienced quite quickly.
Decent half back options.
Would be great to see McCloskey and Henshaw get a run together.
Wings/back 3 have the usual faces.

Where's the spark though. Feels like a squad to produce a solid well drilled team. We'll need more than that to compete for the title.

[GunsGerms]

Ringrose unlucky?

In any case I dont really care who Schmidt picks provided he picks who ever he thinks is his strongest squad with a view to:

A. Ensuring we finish the year with a high ranking to secure a good RWC seeding
B. Win an unprecedented and historic 3rd 6 nations in a row.

If we hit those targets it doesnt matter who was involved we can bring in a new wave of players next year if required.

[Notch]

Strange that Ulster only have 2 representatives in the forwards squad, and both are hookers..

It's not that strange when you consider that Henderson, Tuohy and Henry are all injured. Who else would be picked? I can only think of McCall and Diack and they would be fringe players at best, like Herring pretty much is.

[Don Alfonso]

Ringrose unlucky?

Not really. Henshaw and Payne are the incumbents, and McCloskey and Marshall are the two best performing centres in Ireland, aged 23 and 24. How many centres do you want?

[Notch]

With Ringrose its a question of whether he's better off being in the squad and not playing, or not being in the squad and playing for Leinster.

The reason they don't just call up every player they are interested in looking at or players who aren't fully fit is they only want to take so many players out of the provinces. If you aren't going to get picked obviously its better to be back training and playing with your province in most cases.

[GunsGerms]

Ringrose unlucky?

Not really. Henshaw and Payne are the incumbents, and McCloskey and Marshall are the two best performing centres in Ireland, aged 23 and 24. How many centres do you want?

Like I said I dont really care who is picked provided we boost our rankings and win the 6 nations. Ringrose will probably get his chance at some point this year though I reckon.

[toml]

Murray, Jackson Earles, McCloskey, Henshaw, Trimble, Payne.
That would be my back line against Wales.

Same

[Notch]

Same but with Sexton.

[eirebilly]

Great to see Marmion in the squad, was hoping that he would get a look in.

[carpet baboon]

Same but with Sexton.

I do love Sexton but I think Jackson should get the start. He could unleash the beasts outside him

[eirebilly]

I do love Sexton but I think Jackson should get the start. He could unleash the beasts outside him

+1

Jackson looks the form 10 and besides, everyone reads the Sexton wrap easily now.

[Don Alfonso]

Same but with Sexton.

Same, but with the proviso that if Sexton falls apart or is having a mare, the call to get Jacko on is made early doors.

[Notch]

I think its a case of a coach and a player really understanding each other and Schmidt knowing how to get the best out of Sexton. I think we'll see a different Jonny Sexton tbh. Also we've lost a lot of leadership- O'Connell gone, O'Mahony out, Payne may or may not start- Best will be a great Captain but while he's getting stuck into every ruck we need an organising voice in the back line and thats where Sexton will be key.

But I agree with you on principle- the truth is, Jackson is a superb leader and communicator in his own right. His place kicking percentage has come up. His running game has come on in leaps and bounds and he always has had a wonderful pass. I think he needs to kick like he did in Oyonnax every week and improve some of his kicking from hand and he's basically there. The moment where the young apprentice usurps the master is approaching, and soon Jackson will do to Sexton what Sexton did to ROG. We have several years of the two players battling it out to be first choice ahead of us, I just don't think that we're quite there yet.

What I'm hoping to see is Jackson coming off the bench to close out games. Maybe starting against Italy or Scotland. Then on the tour it becomes a question of Sexton needing to keep him at bay and being under pressure for his spot.

[Notch]

I do love Sexton but I think Jackson should get the start. He could unleash the beasts outside him

+1

Jackson looks the form 10 and besides, everyone reads the Sexton wrap easily now.

Funny thing is, a lot of Ulsters best tries have come from wrap moves like the trademark Sexton one. Both from 9 and from 10. Certainly its one of the things in Jacksons arsenal. Great example against Oyonnax;

[carpet baboon]

I think its a case of a coach and a player really understanding each other and Schmidt knowing how to get the best out of Sexton. I think we'll see a different Jonny Sexton tbh. Also we've lost a lot of leadership- O'Connell gone, O'Mahony out, Payne may or may not start- Best will be a great Captain but while he's getting stuck into every ruck we need an organising voice in the back line and thats where Sexton will be key.

But I agree with you on principle- the truth is, Jackson is a superb leader and communicator in his own right. His place kicking percentage has come up. His running game has come on in leaps and bounds and he always has had a wonderful pass. I think he needs to kick like he did in Oyonnax every week and improve some of his kicking from hand and he's basically there. The moment where the young apprentice usurps the master is approaching, and soon Jackson will do to Sexton what Sexton did to ROG. We have several years of the two players battling it out to be first choice ahead of us, I just don't think that we're quite there yet.

What I'm hoping to see is Jackson coming off the bench to close out games. Maybe starting against Italy or Scotland. Then on the tour it becomes a question of Sexton needing to keep him at bay and being under pressure for his spot.

I agree with all of this
I just think now's the time to go for the kill. Let's go at Wales from minute 1. Footon the gas and blow them away.
And Jackson is the man for that right now. With the back line we could put out I feel he would but the welsh to the sword.
Then after 60 aangry Sexton comes on with a point to prove.

That's my happy place right there

[funnyExiledScot]

Murray, Jackson Earles, McCloskey, Henshaw, Trimble, Payne.
That would be my back line against Wales.

Same

Agreed. I think McCloskey and Henshaw in the centres is a no brainer, and Payne can return to his best position and bring his footballing talents into the line from 15. Earls and Trimble on the wings.

Jackson vs Sexton is the one I struggle with. Difficult to call.

[eirebilly]

Murray, Jackson Earles, McCloskey, Henshaw, Trimble, Payne.
That would be my back line against Wales.

For Wales I would have :

09 - Murray
10 - Jackson
11 - Earls
12 - McCloskey
13 - Marshall
14 - Trimble
15 - Henshaw (if not fit then Payne)

I agree that Ireland should come out firing and try to blow the Welsh away and in Jackson, Ireland have a good line leader. I would choose Marshall over Henshaw at 13 simply because of the Ulster understanding.

I would also have CJ at 8 for that match and Heaslip either coming from the bench or playing 6. I don't think its the best option to move CJ to 6 myself as he is far more effective at 8.

[rodders]

I have a feeling that Schmidt may start Payne and McCloskey in midfield with Henshaw on the bench against Wales.

McCloskey could be the star of the tournament if he gets a start - he is that good already imo.

[rodders]

Funny thing is, a lot of Ulsters best tries have come from wrap moves like the trademark Sexton one. Both from 9 and from 10. Certainly its one of the things in Jacksons arsenal. Great example against Oyonnax;

Glad someone pointed put the wrap move using the 9 - this is something Ireland used in the warm-up games for the RWC and I've noticed all the provinces are using this, plus the 'Leinster' loop quite a bit.

I have the suspicion that this may have came from Schmidt/Nucifura and we are starting to see more common moves and styles of play being implemented across all the teams a la New Zealand.

The defensive patterns and regular use of the choke tackle are all very similar too so I wonder if Schmidt is having a more active role in the provinces general style of play, which was rumored to be one of the stipulations for him taking the role...

[eirebilly]

I have a feeling that Schmidt may start Payne and McCloskey in midfield with Henshaw on the bench against Wales.

McCloskey could be the star of the tournament if he gets a start - he is that good already imo.

I am not sure that would be a great idea since Marshall is the starting 13 for Ulster right now (and the man in form) and Payne is just on his way back with one game at 15.

I do feel that McCloskey Marshall midfield you stay together.

[rapidsnowman]

I honestly doubt if we will see a McCloskey + Marshall combo in mid-field.

We will probably see Rob at 15 and therefore Payne back in the centre and Henshaw (if fit) alongside him. Meaning no McCloskey or Marshall on the field or likely on the bench with Fitzy being more versatile.

Not ideal as Henshaw and Payne are both lacking in game time recently.

Hope I'm wrong would love to see McCloskey, although I don't think we would see him ripping up trees with Roberts opposite him.

[BamBam]

I honestly doubt if we will see a McCloskey + Marshall combo in mid-field.

We will probably see Rob at 15 and therefore Payne back in the centre and Henshaw (if fit) alongside him. Meaning no McCloskey or Marshall on the field or likely on the bench with Fitzy being more versatile.

Not ideal as Henshaw and Payne are both lacking in game time recently.

Hope I'm wrong would love to see McCloskey, although I don't think we would see him ripping up trees with Roberts opposite him.

He did pretty well lined up against Barritt last week to be fair, a fairly flanker esque centre himself!

[rapidsnowman]

I would like to see:

09 - Murray
10 - Sexton
11 - Earls
12 - McCloskey
13 - Henshaw
14 - Trimble
15 - Payne

[rapidsnowman]

BamBam

He did, but I think Jamie Roberts is a step up from Barritt, and test rugby a step up as well.
If McCloskey did start and had quiet/poor game, I think it would have to be viewed in the context of who he was facing.

Which I'm sure it would because you could never accuse us 606er's of been prone to over-reactions!

[BamBam]

Haha, very true on the over reactions!

I reckon McCloskey will do brilliantly if he's given a shot, and don't mind in the slightest if he doesn't start against England in about a month!

[marty2086]

Hope I'm wrong would love to see McCloskey, although I don't think we would see him ripping up trees with Roberts opposite him.

Hes shone against the best team and possibly meanest defence in Europe, has beaten more defenders than anyone else in the ERCC in a pool that also includes Toulouse and is Hendersonesque with his ability to fend guys of all sizes off

[rapidsnowman]

Hes shone against the best team and possibly meanest defence in Europe, has beaten more defenders than anyone else in the ERCC in a pool that also includes Toulouse and is Hendersonesque with his ability to fend guys of all sizes off

I know, I would love to see him playing. Just trying to manage expectations/be a damp squib (delete as appropriate).

I'm still not convinced Joe will pick him. You could argue Henderson is only likely to be a clear starter now POC has retired.

[GoodinTightSpaces]

I would like to see:

09 - Murray
10 - Sexton
11 - Earls
12 - McCloskey
13 - Henshaw
14 - Trimble
15 - Payne

I really like the look of that backline. could do some damage with it.

[eirebilly]

Payne is only returning and when he was playing 13 for Ireland, he was doing so as a defending 13. His running lines in attack always seemed (to me) to be that of a 15. Payne's defensive (especially last man) awareness and ability is far greater than Rob Kearney's.

I think that if Henshaw was fit, he could be in 13 (if not playing 15) ahead of Marshall with McCloskey at 12 but I do like the idea of keeping familiar pairings in the midfield.

[GoodinTightSpaces]

Payne is only returning and when he was playing 13 for Ireland, he was doing so as a defending 13. His running lines in attack always seemed (to me) to be that of a 15. Payne's defensive (especially last man) awareness and ability is far greater than Rob Kearney's.

I think that if Henshaw was fit, he could be in 13 (if not playing 15) ahead of Marshall with McCloskey at 12  but I do like the idea of keeping familiar pairings in the midfield.

agree re payne at fullback. he also is far better at bringing other players into the game. Kearney while having a great left peg and solid under the high ball has been prone just to boot the ball high into the air are run straight into contact. very rarely see him link will with either wing

[eirebilly]

McCloskey / Henshaw make for one hell of a pairing but right now while McCloskey and Marshall are playing well and confidently together, I would certainly give them a go at Wales.
The key to that partnership, however, is to have Jackson at 10 I feel.

[rodders]

I honestly doubt if we will see a McCloskey + Marshall combo in mid-field.

We will probably see Rob at 15 and therefore Payne back in the centre and Henshaw (if fit) alongside him. Meaning no McCloskey or Marshall on the field or likely on the bench with Fitzy being more versatile.

Not ideal as Henshaw and Payne are both lacking in game time recently.

Hope I'm wrong would love to see McCloskey, although I don't think we would see him ripping up trees with Roberts opposite him.

He did pretty well lined up against Barritt last week to be fair, a fairly flanker esque centre himself!

I think with his speed and footwork Roberts is the exact type of player he would excel against. I've lots of respect for Robert's btw but just think McCloskey has such a varied skill set very few defenses have worked him out yet.

If you go low he can offload, if you go high he makes huge meters, he can step off both feet, run an outside arch and target the inside shoulder, he has a decent kicking game and great hands.

I think he could be the start of the competition if he starts.

[marty2086]

I honestly doubt if we will see a McCloskey + Marshall combo in mid-field.

We will probably see Rob at 15 and therefore Payne back in the centre and Henshaw (if fit) alongside him. Meaning no McCloskey or Marshall on the field or likely on the bench with Fitzy being more versatile.

Not ideal as Henshaw and Payne are both lacking in game time recently.

Hope I'm wrong would love to see McCloskey, although I don't think we would see him ripping up trees with Roberts opposite him.

He did pretty well lined up against Barritt last week to be fair, a fairly flanker esque centre himself!

I think with his speed and footwork Roberts is the exact type of player he would excel against. I've lots of respect for Robert's btw but just think McCloskey has such a varied skill set very few defenses have worked him out yet.

If you go low he can offload, if you go high he makes huge meters, he can step off both feet, run an outside arch and target the inside shoulder, he has a decent kicking game and great hands.

I think he could be the start of the competition if he starts.

Hes a good defender and with his strength Roberts may have trouble with him if he runs at him

[munkian]

[eirebilly]

Payne is only returning and when he was playing 13 for Ireland, he was doing so as a defending 13. His running lines in attack always seemed (to me) to be that of a 15. Payne's defensive (especially last man) awareness and ability is far greater than Rob Kearney's.

I think that if Henshaw was fit, he could be in 13 (if not playing 15) ahead of Marshall with McCloskey at 12  but I do like the idea of keeping familiar pairings in the midfield.

agree re payne at fullback. he also is far better at bringing other players into the game. Kearney while having a great left peg and solid under the high ball has been prone just to boot the ball high into the air are run straight into contact. very rarely see him link will with either wing

Definitely from deep he is far better at bringing other players into the game. People will say that he is not quick enough to be an International fullback and I do not believe this. He may not be the quickest in running speed but he has the awareness from 15 which is something I rate higher than speed of foot.

[Marshes]

The fact that we haven't brought another specialist fullback makes me think that if Kearney does get injured or if Joe is feeling bold, it may be henshaw or Payne that fills that gap, with McCloskey coming into the centre. Zebo will probably be on the bench to cover wing and fullback either way.

[Notch]

Or Henshaw- he's had more game time at 15 than Payne recently although personally I would keep him at centre.

[eirebilly]

I just feel that Henshaw/Marshall/Mcloskey offer more in the centres than Payne. Payne offers more at 15 than Kearney or Zebo in my opinion as well.

I would just not like to see Payne playing 13 because that would signal to me a very defensive game plan will be put in place and not utilising the obvious natural talents (with line breaking and defensive abilities) at centre. We have seen that, it may have snuck Ireland across the line last year in the 6N but its not the way forward in my opinion.

[Notch]

I don't think there is a big difference between Henshaw and Payne in terms of talent or aptitude when it comes to outside centre, or fullback for that matter. Neither of them is a natural 12 and Henshaw hasn't been able to show us his full range of talents playing there thus far, but if McCloskey or Marshall or Fitzgerald plays there I would definitely prefer Henshaw to Payne because he is younger and will be peaking at the next RWC whereas Payne won't be around. But I don't think Henshaw is better in attack from 13 than Payne right now and defensively I would still back Payne.

Both Henshaw and Payne have more time and space to express themselves in at 15, thats the nature of counter-attacking from fullback, but I do believe both very much understand how to attack effectively from 13. The incumbent international player always suffers in these debates; whilst Payne is judged on his attack when playing for Ireland against really organised and committed defences that are hard to crack, maybe someone like Luke Marshall looks good when playing against Pro12 teams who are just not playing at the same level. Not intending that to be a slight against Marshall at all, he's been fantastic for us, I just always expect any players stats to go down when they first come into an international side because it is a step up, there's no doubt about it.

One thing that I am concerned with Payne is his occasional tendency to kick badly in attack from fullback, high percentage chips and grubbers that make him look like a genius when they come off (see his exquisite assist for Luke Marshall recently) but when they don't turnover possession- and you saw in the World Cup against Canada, if that doesn't come off and he's coming from the back with no-one able to cover you can be under your posts very quickly.

Payne had several of those grubbers and chips leading to turnovers against Saracens. I hope it was just a bit of rust after a long lay off on his part because you'd think he is experienced enough to know not to force it. Kearney on the other hand is a safety first fullback, but he's better in the air and we will be peppered with kicks against Wales at least. I would go with the conservative option at 15 for the first game, horses for courses selection there. I think with Earls and Trimble, and Sexton and Henshaw and maybe McCloskey- there is enough of a balance between attack and defence to merit it.

To be honest I would not pick Payne for the first game at 13 or 15, albeit I know he can be one of our more influential players and I would not be surprised if Schmidt continues with him at 13. I'd have him on the bench.

[GunsGerms]

Can anyone see Ireland having a good ranking at year end? Obviously we need it this year for the seeding for the next RWC. Will we end up being a third seed?

However, this year we play France and England away in an incredibly tough 6 nations, then three tests v South Africa in South Africa, followed by two tests v New Zealand and one v Australia.

What a tough and exciting fixture list!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[rodders]

We can't compare Payne to our other backs.

As Francis Saili pointed out at Munster - our players are taught to play positions and taught to play systems but in NZ people are taught to play rugby and skills, rather than techniques and patterns. That is a massive difference.

Payne is not a natural anything, as with all Kiwi backs he's a highly skilled rugby footballer and can play any position. Schmidt understands this too - they don't live inside the same box as we do in the NH.

Whereas our homegrown players are more confined and limited to the position they are most comfortable as that is how they are taught the game - for them to play in a position they need to gain experience and game time to build the specific skills for that position - in the SH its different players can slot anywhere.

[eirebilly]

I do not see Payne as being any worse than Kearney under the high ball. 2 seasons ago Kearney was on of the best under the high ball but not so much anymore. Kearney's last man defence has always been an issue to me and in Payne, that issue is also solved.

I am all for preparing for RWC19 and if that were also the case for Schmidt then Payne (and a few others) would not be selected in the squad but he is, so lets look at utilising him in a position that best suits him and for me that is at 15.

Marshall and McCloskey have formed a great partnership at Pro12 level but they have also come up against some world class centres and faired very well so (as has Henshaw) so I have absolutely no reservations in selecting them against Wales.

[eirebilly]

We can't compare Payne to our other backs.

As Francis Saili pointed out at Munster - our players are taught to play positions and taught to play systems but in NZ people are taught to play rugby and skills, rather than techniques and patterns. That is a massive difference.

Payne is not a natural anything, as with all Kiwi backs he's a highly skilled rugby footballer and can play any position. Schmidt understands this too - they don't live inside the same box as we do in the NH.

Whereas our homegrown players are more confined and limited to the position they are most comfortable as that is how they are taught the game - for them to play in a position they need to gain experience and game time to build the specific skills for that position - in the SH its different players can slot anywhere.

I don't believe this for a second.

Henshaw - Can play 12 - 13 - 15 and even wing comfortably
Earls - Can play on either wing - 13 - 15 comfortably
Zebo - Can play wing and 15 comfortably

Fitz, Cave, Olding and so on can all play several positions across the backline. They do not live in a box, these are natural players.

[RubyGuby]

Billy - I think Ireland are about to go through a bit of a transition now that POC and BOD etc have retired. I just hope the fans give their superb coach the time to rebuild in certain areas if results don't go their way. I have always had the Irish fans and hierarchy as an intelligent bunch (apart from Rodders of course) so I would see them sticking with Schmidt who for me is top draw.

Problem with Kearney is that he has become a bit of a talisman and it can be difficult to drop players like that as they can be inspirational to the other younger guys but I absolutely agree with you on Payne.

[eirebilly]

You agree with me Guru? Well that has just screwed up the curve

[RubyGuby]

Either way Billy I think you'll get some Payne in this 6 Nations probably in the first game - Regards to Gibson -

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