Six Nations 2016 Wales vs Scotland

First topic message reminder :

Wales v Scotland

4:50pm - Saturday the 13th of February 2016

Principality Stadium, Cardiff

Teams

Wales
15 Liam Williams
14 George North
13 Jonathan Davies
12 Jamie Roberts
11 Tom James
10 Dan Biggar
9 Gareth Davies
1 Rob Evans
2 Scott Baldwin
3 Samson Lee
4 Luke Charteris
5 Alun Wyn Jones
6 Sam Warburton (c)
7 Justin Tipuric
8 Taulupe Faletau

Reps: Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Tomas Francis, Bradley Davies, Dan Lydiate, Lloyd Williams, Rhys Priestland, Gareth Anscombe

Scotland

15. Stuart Hogg
14. Sean Maitland
13. Mark Bennett
12. Dunc Taylor
11. Tommy Seymour
10. Finn Russell
09. Greig Laidlaw (c)

01. Alasdair Dickinson
02. Ross Ford
03. Willem Nel
04. Richie Gray
05. Jonny Gray
06. John Barclay
07. John Hardie
08. David Denton

Reps: McInally, Reid, Fagerson, Swinson, Cowan, Hidalgo-Clyne, Weir, Lamont



Referee is unfortunately George Clancy (IRFU) which ruins the game generally.

Touch judges: John Lacey (IRFU) & Federico Anselmi (UAR)

TMO: Graham Hughes (RFU)

George Clancy is referee, so I have little hope in this being a decent match.

He has ruined so many games it is ridiculously. His festidious manner, robotic lack of empathy and his wilful misinterpretation drive me mad.

Such a huge disappointment to see him as referee for any match I'm attending, I literally want my money back.

Clownshoes Clancy is a blight on club and country

munkian wrote:Clownshoes Clancy is a blight on club and country

He is..!

It is remarkable that he is not removed from refereeing at any professional rugby level.

Sport is a form of entertainment, people pay to watch. It seems unfair that such a moron can be left by the bodies in charge to constantly ruin games.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Think I know which CV employers would see as the better one.

They'd also know that only an idiot would compare the Scottish and Welsh squads.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Moral victories don't count Phil.

True, but that wasn't the point.

maestegmafia wrote:

Cotter has never won the European cup, Gatland has twice and with no where near the budget Cotter had available at Clermont.

Twice?

When?

Shifty wrote:Why are people slaggíng off the Welsh coaches?
They have achieved more than any Welsh coaches ever, and a draw in Ireland is a very good result all things considered, they have won the championship for the last 2 tournaments.
We should beat France, Italy and Scotland at home, and England are still gelling so a win at Twickenham is not impossible.  
in 7 or so weeks these same people could be saying what a brilliant coach Gatland is.

We should have beaten that Ireland side, too. That's the point.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Gatland may not be to everyones taste and cetainly not to the purists who want to see us the the 'Welsh Way' whatever that is these days but after the dross of 90s and early 2000s that we annually had to endure then I am quite happy to have seen us get the achievements we have had.

And there it is in a nutshell. Forget the talent available, just be better than Kevin Bowring.

maestegmafia wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

munkian wrote:North has hardly been tearing things up for the Saints this season either.

Exactly, and Roberts has played abrasively, brilliant in attack, strong ball carrier and a reasonable passing game for quins, no different to his performance last Sunday... Likewise JD2 at ASM

Davies doesn't play like that for Montferrand.

The Roberts I saw a few weeks ago at The Stoop was a very different Roberts from the one we see playing for Wales.

If you want criticise anyone's knowledge of French rugby make sure you get your teams right mate...

I have, having been there a number of times. Guess what the M is in ASM.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Shifty,

It's more the backroom staff, Howley and McBryde specifically that people like myself have criticised.  Our scrum whilst better last week was a shambles in the WC and our attack is blunt and predictable and has been for the last 8 years.

They work for Gatland. The buck stops with him.

Pretty sure he won it once, albeit he also won the European Mickey Mouse Trophy the season before.

Still, Gatland is a fantastic coach with a stellar record and if the aim of the game was to compare him favourably to Cotter than that's pretty straightforward.

mikey_dragon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Without digging through all old records etc how is Cotter a far superior coach to Gatland.  What are the respective records etc?

Firstly, Cotter has amended his approach since the turn of the decade.

Cotter and Schmidt would get top franchise coaching in New Zealand. I doubt Gatland would.

Bedford is right, he isn't. The trouble with you Phil is you think your opinion is fact and nothing else matters. It's what I like to call idiot's logic.

I've undone that lie before. Just repeating it makes you look weak.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Pretty sure he won it once, albeit he also won the European Mickey Mouse Trophy the season before.

Still, Gatland is a fantastic coach with a stellar record and if the aim of the game was to compare him favourably to Cotter than that's pretty straightforward.

It's only straightforward if you ignore context.

PhilBB wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Pretty sure he won it once, albeit he also won the European Mickey Mouse Trophy the season before.

Still, Gatland is a fantastic coach with a stellar record and if the aim of the game was to compare him favourably to Cotter than that's pretty straightforward.

It's only straightforward if you ignore context.

No, it's straightforward when you compare what each coach has actually won (not the hardest metric to understand), and look to Gatland's lengthy and successful track record in international rugby with Wales and the Lions against Cotter's thus far difficult start with Scotland.

I'm not saying that Cotter isn't a fine coach, and he could well go on to achieve great things in international rugby, but we're talking about actual achievements and looking back at what has actually happened, not conjecture.

funnyExiledScot wrote:
No, it's straightforward when you compare what each coach has actually won (not the hardest metric to understand), and look to Gatland's lengthy and successful track record in international rugby with Wales and the Lions against Cotter's thus far difficult start with Scotland.

I'm not saying that Cotter isn't a fine coach, and he could well go on to achieve great things in international rugby, but we're talking about actual achievements and looking back at what has actually happened, not conjecture.

Again, you're ignoring context. Gatland has significantly better players to work with than does Cotter.

You have to look at 'achievements' in context.

PhilBB wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
No, it's straightforward when you compare what each coach has actually won (not the hardest metric to understand), and look to Gatland's lengthy and successful track record in international rugby with Wales and the Lions against Cotter's thus far difficult start with Scotland.

I'm not saying that Cotter isn't a fine coach, and he could well go on to achieve great things in international rugby, but we're talking about actual achievements and looking back at what has actually happened, not conjecture.

Again, you're ignoring context. Gatland has significantly better players to work with than does Cotter.

You have to look at 'achievements' in context.

Lyn Jones must be awesome then!

Griff wrote:
Lyn Jones must be awesome then!

No, he failed miserably with the Ospreys.

And he's getting the NGD to be just about as good as they should be, but no better. Whilst he remains there, they won't attract the kind of player they need.

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Without digging through all old records etc how is Cotter a far superior coach to Gatland.  What are the respective records etc?

Firstly, Cotter has amended his approach since the turn of the decade.

Cotter and Schmidt would get top franchise coaching in New Zealand. I doubt Gatland would.

Bedford is right, he isn't. The trouble with you Phil is you think your opinion is fact and nothing else matters. It's what I like to call idiot's logic.

I've undone that lie before. Just repeating it makes you look weak.

It's not a lie. Trying to be billy big balls on an Internet forum makes you look dull, lonely, stupid, etc. Yet you're doing it across numerous articles.

PhilBB - I'm not sure what you're agenda is here?  

All it is doing is dragging down what has been a very good thread so far. It's all a bit pointless really.

mikey_dragon wrote:

It's not a lie. Trying to be billy big balls on an Internet forum makes you look dull, lonely, stupid, etc. Yet you're doing it across numerous articles.

If you had any self awareness, or wit, you'd appreciate the irony of that post.

I enjoy it when folk have a different opinion from me as it allows each opinion to be challenged. Of course, when yours is challenged your reply is to write that kind of garbage or claim 'I don't want to talk to you'.

Therein lies the difference in intelligence between us. Of course, by all means make yourself known on Twitter.

RDW_Scotland wrote:PhilBB - I'm not sure what you're agenda is here?  

All it is doing is dragging down what has been a very good thread so far. It's all a bit pointless really.

Agenda?

Sorry for not jumping on the Warren Bandwagon. I find him hugely overrated in Wales, beyond approach, almost Untouchable. I think that's unhealthy, yet it is sadly a large part of the Welsh psyche of deference.

I find the criticism of Howley and McBrydge, but not Gatland, entirely illogical and unfair.

I'm pretty comfortable in holding that opinion and being able to defend it. I see Schmidt and Cotter as brighter, better coaches, doing more with significantly more limited resources than Gatland has.

Why is any of that 'pointless'?

No9 wrote: As for Preistland... Why are you all still on his back. We have heard so many times he's a confidence player, yet all you do is knock his confidence. Last week he came on and did a GOOD, steady job. Lets not forget, he didn't miss a place kick and as such, brought us back into that game. Give him a break....

We're not, we're just speaking the truth every time his apologist bandwagon make him out to be more than he is. If he's a confidence player and people commenting on V2 can knock his confidence, then surely it is more conclusive proof that he is not suited for international rugby? He did an okay job, not much of it was good. He also missed two drop goals, which his apologist bandwagon and the Scrum V panel would love to forget.

That's fair enough but feck me the debate has dragged on and hasn't really added anything to this thread - hence pointless.

Why not start a 'The Opinion-Facts of PhilBB' thread then instead of massaging your ego by derailing every other thread then ?

Just askin' like

PhilBB wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

It's not a lie. Trying to be billy big balls on an Internet forum makes you look dull, lonely, stupid, etc. Yet you're doing it across numerous articles.

If you had any self awareness, or wit, you'd appreciate the irony of that post.

I enjoy it when folk have a different opinion from me as it allows each opinion to be challenged. Of course, when yours is challenged your reply is to write that kind of garbage or claim 'I don't want to talk to you'.

Therein lies the difference in intelligence between us. Of course, by all means make yourself known on Twitter.

Well I don't .

I appreciate you have a different opinion, you don't appreciate that others do so too. That's why you regurgitate the same crap over and over trying to drown out other people's comments. You're right that I don't want read or debate with that, but the context of your post here is just a lie. I think there might actually be something wrong with you to still be doing this?

I may do when necessary l, but I don't really go on there any more.

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's fair enough but feck me the debate has dragged on and hasn't really added anything to this thread - hence pointless.

Yes, it's a message board. That's what happens. Reading is voluntary.

munkian wrote:Why not start a 'The Opinion-Facts of PhilBB' thread then instead of massaging your ego by derailing every other thread then ?

Just askin' like

Is that aimed at me?

mikey_dragon wrote:

I appreciate you have a different opinion, you don't appreciate that others do so too. That's why you regurgitate the same crap over and over trying to drown out other people's comments. You're right that I don't want read or debate with that, but the context of your post here is just a lie. I think there might actually be something wrong with you to still be doing this?

I may do when necessary l, but I don't really go on there any more.

If I didn't appreciate that others have a different opinion then I wouldn't interact with them. The very action you're criticising is the very action that disproves your claimed opinion.

Thanks for that little question. Remind me again of your medical qualifications....

PhilBB wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's fair enough but feck me the debate has dragged on and hasn't really added anything to this thread - hence pointless.

Yes, it's a message board. That's what happens. Reading is voluntary.

Well you're making this place a really enjoyable place to be!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's fair enough but feck me the debate has dragged on and hasn't really added anything to this thread - hence pointless.

Yes, it's a message board. That's what happens. Reading is voluntary.

Well you're making this place a really enjoyable place to be!

Cheers, shall I just swim with the tide or accuse others of being mentally ill? I could fit in then.

7 pages of argument and we haven't even played the game yet!

So anyway....


Welsh fans - where are you most concerned about the Scotland team tomorrow?

Scottish fans - where are you most concerned about the Welsh team? Apart from everywhere...

Back on track...


So what of the Scottish halfbacks then...

I rate both players but I don't think they worked well together last week.

Russell usually exudes confidence but last week looked like a rabbit inter headlights a number of times.

Laidlaw maybe took into much himself.

Can Wales target this area of the Scots this weekend...??

We need our centers running at their 10 - Sexton made a massive 2 tackles last game

We have to play at a higher tempo and get the offloading game going.  We also need to deal with the deep kicking well - winning the aerial battle will be one key area.  I want to see the scots back 3 running the ball back not kicking it.  If we do that we will dominate possession as Wales will kick everything they get in their own half

RDW_Scotland wrote:So anyway....


Welsh fans - where are you most concerned about the Scotland team tomorrow?

Scottish fans - where are you most concerned about the Welsh team? Apart from everywhere...

The Welsh defence would be the most obvious concern based on last weeks performance. If we are choked like we were against England then I can only see it going one way.

We need to find a way to open up the game again, I'm hoping Duncan Taylor in the centres will help, he's been a great distributor for Sarries, but we'll see. I'm still saying Wales, even if it does open up.

My concerns are:

Power disparity in the backline - I can see the Welsh back regularly getting over the gainline and ours not. I think we'll be doing a lot of sideways shuffling

Kicking game and aerial battle - Wales' is world class (especially with Biggar back), ours is not

Try scoring - the Welsh defence isn't any more frugal than the English. Can we score tries?

Bench - we really have very little impact, with a big drop in quality from most of those on the bench (save perhaps Hidalgo-Clyne, but he never gets on)

PhilBB wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
No, it's straightforward when you compare what each coach has actually won (not the hardest metric to understand), and look to Gatland's lengthy and successful track record in international rugby with Wales and the Lions against Cotter's thus far difficult start with Scotland.

I'm not saying that Cotter isn't a fine coach, and he could well go on to achieve great things in international rugby, but we're talking about actual achievements and looking back at what has actually happened, not conjecture.

Again, you're ignoring context. Gatland has significantly better players to work with than does Cotter.

You have to look at 'achievements' in context.

This is sadly true, but it still doesn't negate Gatland's superb record with Waikato, Wasps, Wales and the Lions.

We're talking about international rugby, and comparing two coaches. Based on your very limited argument I suppose we can't really judge anything Gatland has achieved vs another coach because by definition coaches have different teams and resources.

Would you say that Steve Hansen is a better coach than Warren Gatland? I guess you'd say simply that based on context (Hansen having significantly better players at the ABs than Gatland has with Wales) it's impossible to judge. I personally think Hansen's win record and World Cup victory sets him apart, but I guess that's just me ignoring context again.

I look at Gatland and I see a proven international coach. Cotter has yet to prove himself, and whilst I'd agree that it's unfair to expect him to overtake Wales in his first year, our defeat to Italy last season was against a team with inferior players to our own. As I recall Gatland did rather well in his first season with Wales, against a bleak backdrop of a Wooden Spoon the prior year.

Maes

Unfortunately the wheels have well and truly come off the wagon in Glasgow this season. The forwards are poor ( Toonie sacked the forwards coach, Sahde Munro, who had 5 or 6 years in charge of the pack to bring in the Connacht coach, (a New Zealender = must be better than a home grown coach) )  and hence the backs are getting pants ball to work with.

So they end up trying silly offloads, miracle passes, difficult kicks etc. Most of these moves don't come off and the multitude of errors are slowly ( in some cases quickly) eroding the confidence of the majority of the weegie bases players ( backs and forwards alike).

Hogg was the only player to really buck this trend last week.

If Scotland cant summon up a better performance this week then its going to be a long old 6 N's with another spoon looming into view.

RDW_Scotland wrote:So anyway....


Welsh fans - where are you most concerned about the Scotland team tomorrow?

Scottish fans - where are you most concerned about the Welsh team? Apart from everywhere...

RDW - No offence here but my main concern will be if Wales fail to function behind as they did last week - I believe we will get parity in the scrums and in the tight in general and I think we will win the breakdown. I think the worse thing for Scotland is that we played poorly last week and the lads would have had a bit of a rocket during training. We cannot afford to start slow and allow confidence to grow among the Scots. We need 1 or 2 early scores to free up our nerves and then hopefully play some decent rugby. In essence RDW, and on last weeks performance Wales have little to fear - However, if we are not at our best we will lose. If there is one concern about the Scottish team its that they will now play with little expectation and little "real" pressure - that could be a real danger for Wales.

RDW_Scotland wrote:So anyway....


Welsh fans - where are you most concerned about the Scotland team tomorrow?

Scottish fans - where are you most concerned about the Welsh team? Apart from everywhere...

Teams that can hold us at the scrum, lineout and halt us at the contact area can usually do enough to beat or draw with us. I think Scotland have the front 5 capable of doing that, but whether they will do so is subjective. Scotland don't often look confident at the 'millennium' stadium tbh.

Apologies for adding to the mire. I had typed all of the above and by heck I was going to post it.

PhilBB - you can PM me if you need me to set you straight again, rather than messing up this thread.

Back to the game.....

RDW is right, the power disparity is a big issue for Scotland, as it was against England. It's why I think Taylor coming in at 12 probably works for this one. We lose a bit of creativity without Scott but Taylor gives us a more physical edge which we'll need against Wales.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

This is sadly true, but it still doesn't negate Gatland's superb record with Waikato, Wasps, Wales and the Lions.

We're talking about international rugby, and comparing two coaches. Based on your very limited argument I suppose we can't really judge anything Gatland has achieved vs another coach because by definition coaches have different teams and resources.

Would you say that Steve Hansen is a better coach than Warren Gatland? I guess you'd say simply that based on context (Hansen having significantly better players at the ABs than Gatland has with Wales) it's impossible to judge. I personally think Hansen's win record and World Cup victory sets him apart, but I guess that's just me ignoring context again.

I look at Gatland and I see a proven international coach. Cotter has yet to prove himself, and whilst I'd agree that it's unfair to expect him to overtake Wales in his first year, our defeat to Italy last season was against a team with inferior players to our own. As I recall Gatland did rather well in his first season with Wales, against a bleak backdrop of a Wooden Spoon the prior year.

You can judge and to do that you have to use context. Is Cotter getting more out of his squad than Gatland is with Wales? I'd say that's a clear 'yes'.

I look at Gatland and I see a proven international coach from four years ago. Since then? Nothing has been achieved. In the meantime, Cotter has taken a poor Scottish set up to a referee decision away from a RWC semi final.

Cotter is contemporary and his working well with his bunch. Gatland is neither.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Apologies for adding to the mire. I had typed all of the above and by heck I was going to post it.

PhilBB - you can PM me if you need me to set you straight again, rather than messing up this thread.

Back to the game.....

RDW is right, the power disparity is a big issue for Scotland, as it was against England. It's why I think Taylor coming in at 12 probably works for this one. We lose a bit of creativity without Scott but Taylor gives us a more physical edge which we'll need against Wales.

Again?

Back to the game....

How do we feel the scrum battle will go? I'd have Scotland ahead on paper but I suspect it'll end up fairly even. I don't see a decisive victory for either side.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:
No, it's straightforward when you compare what each coach has actually won (not the hardest metric to understand), and look to Gatland's lengthy and successful track record in international rugby with Wales and the Lions against Cotter's thus far difficult start with Scotland.

I'm not saying that Cotter isn't a fine coach, and he could well go on to achieve great things in international rugby, but we're talking about actual achievements and looking back at what has actually happened, not conjecture.

Again, you're ignoring context. Gatland has significantly better players to work with than does Cotter.

You have to look at 'achievements' in context.

This is sadly true, but it still doesn't negate Gatland's superb record with Waikato, Wasps, Wales and the Lions.

We're talking about international rugby, and comparing two coaches. Based on your very limited argument I suppose we can't really judge anything Gatland has achieved vs another coach because by definition coaches have different teams and resources.

Would you say that Steve Hansen is a better coach than Warren Gatland? I guess you'd say simply that based on context (Hansen having significantly better players at the ABs than Gatland has with Wales) it's impossible to judge. I personally think Hansen's win record and World Cup victory sets him apart, but I guess that's just me ignoring context again.

I look at Gatland and I see a proven international coach. Cotter has yet to prove himself, and whilst I'd agree that it's unfair to expect him to overtake Wales in his first year, our defeat to Italy last season was against a team with inferior players to our own. As I recall Gatland did rather well in his first season with Wales, against a bleak backdrop of a Wooden Spoon the prior year.

Good post, but to be fair Fes in the past I have seen some Scottish claim that Cotter was a better coach. It must have been one of the years where Gatland was disliked more than he is now - 2013 maybe?

RubyGuby wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:So anyway....


Welsh fans - where are you most concerned about the Scotland team tomorrow?

Scottish fans - where are you most concerned about the Welsh team? Apart from everywhere...

RDW - No offence here but my main concern will be if Wales fail to function behind as they did last week - I believe we will get parity in the scrums and in the tight in general and I think we will win the breakdown. I think the worse thing for Scotland is that we played poorly last week and the lads would have had a bit of a rocket during training. We cannot afford to start slow and allow confidence to grow among the Scots. We need 1 or 2 early scores to free up our nerves and then hopefully play some decent rugby. In essence RDW, and on last weeks performance Wales have little to fear - However, if we are not at our best we will lose. If there is one concern about the Scottish team its that they will now play with little expectation and little "real" pressure - that could be a real danger for Wales.

no offence taken - I would agree with you!

The hope is that when no one expects anything from Scotland we tend to do much better. Not much to cling on to mind...!

I worry that now I've taken out Seymour from my fantasy team, he'll score a few. I am always concerned by Hogg.

I am intrigued by the front five battle. I think Scotland might get a bit of joy here.

I am worried that Russell will have a big game now, to make up for last week.

munkian wrote:We need our centers running at their 10 - Sexton made a massive 2 tackles last game

O thought the general consensus was that we wanted the Welsh team to run round the opposition not through them?

Exploit the 2 on 1s and overlaps etc...!

I can hear the cry now, "N U M B E R S....!!!!"

RiscaGame wrote:I worry that now I've taken out Seymour from my fantasy team, he'll score a few. I am always concerned by Hogg.

I am intrigued by the front five battle. I think Scotland might get a bit of joy here.

I am worried that Russell will have a big game now, to make up for last week.

Just put Hogg in your fantasy team to balance the books! I also think our front 5 are hugely underestimated