"Donald Trump: The elephant in the room for the inclusive new R&A"

by McLaren Tue 23 Feb - 11:54

BBC Sport wrote:Whether or not Donald Trump becomes the next President of the United States, he provides an ongoing problem for golf.

For the second time in a month Martin Slumbers, the chief executive of the R&A, has been forced to deflect questions generated by the Republican front runner's election campaigning.

Trump's outspoken plans to ban Muslims from entering the US and building a wall on the Mexican border are at odds with golf's ethos of becoming a more inclusive sport.

The American billionaire owns Turnberry, the Ayrshire course that last staged the Open in 2009. Inevitably Slumbers is being quizzed over whether Trump is a suitable host for the world's oldest major championship.

Last month, Slumbers, who in 2015 took over as chief of the St Andrews-based governing body, told BBC Sport that Turnberry is not being considered as an Open venue until 2022 at the earliest. He, therefore, reasons there is no need for any definitive statement at this stage.

On Monday Slumbers held a media conference with the UK's golf correspondents and was peppered with more questions regarding Trump and Turnberry's future on the Open rota.

Again he played the kind of straight bat that is currently so craved by the top order in English cricket. Slumbers would not be drawn on the subject.

He is understandably more guarded than his predecessor Peter Dawson, who marked his departure from St Andrews last September by dismissing the notion that Turnberry's Open status could be affected.

"To think that we are going to determine where an Open Championship is held because of something somebody said on the political trail in America is absurd," said the outgoing boss.

"I don't think that's going to happen. We have other priorities, but that's for a future committee to judge."

Dawson was right in the sense that it is for other people to decide, but it is becoming a difficult situation for his successor. At the moment Slumbers is playing for time because he knows to jump either way would be dangerous.

If he took Dawson's line, the new chief executive would be open to criticism that golf's more politically correct outlook is a mere sham. Slumbers wants the game to be open to all yet would be giving a huge platform to a man prompting such outrage.

Equally, if he said that the Open should have nothing to do with Trump, he would deprive the championship of one of its finest venues.

How would Trump react to his resort being demoted from the top table of golfing venues? Would he continue to pour his millions into redeveloping Turnberry's famous hotel and golf course?

It is fair to assume playing host to the Open was one of the attractions for Trump when he bought the place. And were he to pull out, what would that mean for the Ayrshire economy?

Slumbers insists the current noise surrounding Trump is not problematic. "I wouldn't say it is making life difficult," he told BBC Sport.

"I'm pretty clear about what I believe and I'm pretty clear about where we are going and we are pretty clear about where we are going to be until 2021.

"So I think it is just part of the challenge of the responsibility we are trying to discharge."

Slumbers confirmed that Turnberry does remain among the pool of courses considered suitable for staging the Open but he offered no guarantees over when the course might hold its next championship.

The PGA Tour are wrestling with a similar dilemma regarding the WGC Cadillac Championship which will be staged at Trump's Doral Blue Monster course next week.

They have indicated they will look for a new venue for the 2017 running of an event that traditionally attracts all the world's top players.

"Mr Trump's comments are inconsistent with our strong commitment to an inclusive and welcoming environment in the game of golf," the Tour said in a recent statement to Golf.com.

"Immediately after the completion of the 2016 tournament, we will explore all options regarding the event's future."

PGA Tour Commissioner Tim Finchem can expect a similar grilling to the ones endured by Slumbers if he talks to reporters at the south Florida venue next week.

There are no easy answers, especially when you consider Trump's current prominent position in the US polls.

And regardless of whether he goes on to become the next President of the United States, he will remain the owner of several very significant golfing venues.

Assuming his controversial views remain similarly intact, golf will have some difficult choices to make.

Right now the game's bosses are understandably stalling but there will come a time when that will not be enough.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/golf/35635172

Would like to hear views on whether or not the owners political opinions should impact a courses chances of hosting a major championship?

I would say it is worrying just how easily slumbers dismisses the notion that such things can have consequences;

"To think that we are going to determine where an Open Championship is held because of something somebody said on the political trail in America is absurd,"

Is it really such an absurd notion to distance your organisation from someone running for political office on a campaign of blatant racism?

Do you think Slumbers should have followed Timmy's example and just committed to not using Trumps course?

by golfermartin Tue 23 Feb - 12:24

Mac

The quote you attribute to Slumbers was made by the "outgoing boss" Peter Dawson

by McLaren Tue 23 Feb - 12:29

Either way, it conveys the general attitude of the organisation.

And further to this the article confirms "Slumbers confirmed that Turnberry does remain among the pool of courses considered suitable for staging the Open"

So Turnberry which is currently owned by someone running on a campaign of hate and bigotry is suitable for staging the open.

Whatever way you try and spin it, Slumbers doesn't seem in a hurry to condemn the thoughts of Trump.

by Bob_the_Job Tue 23 Feb - 12:42

Shocker - Mac hasn't properly read the piece he's quoting.

Any right thinking person living in an ideal world would want everything associated with the sport they love and partake in to be fluffy and kind, free of any whiff of anything remotely unpleasant. Then there is real life, where sometimes you have to dance with the devil for the greater good.

That's not to say bedding down with Trump is for the greater good - I would imagine it's a judgement call between the money he brings and the money lost from sponsors who don't want to be associated with him. I'm not sure I see any other parts of the equation - I don't imagine anybody is not going to take up golf or give up golf because Trump owns Turnberry and the Open might be played there in 2022.

Slumbers may have some tough choices in the future - I hope he isn't asleep at the wheel when he has to make them (see what I did there?), but I think it's just the media being the media that are pressing him to make some sort of call now. Trump could be President in 2022 and have to have given up commercial interests or he could be flat broke and have had to sell all his "assets" - I know which scenario I prefer, but why jump the gun?

by McLaren Tue 23 Feb - 12:46

Bob

It did occur to me that the R&A were hoping Trump would have lost ownership of Turnberry one way or another by 2022.

I still think they could remove the symbolism of being on the open rota for the time being.

by kwinigolfer Tue 23 Feb - 13:13

Hopefully the subject individual will do us all a favour by dying, preferably in the next few weeks.

One thing I don't understand from the Slumbers statement is this:
"I'm pretty clear about where we are going and we are pretty clear about where we are going to be until 2021."

In that case, why don't you tell us?
Normally, you'd think St.Andrews would get one and an English course (RSG?) another but Turnberry has been overlooked whichever way you cut it. Perhaps the delay is in getting RSG to abandon its male members only policy (which I assume, but am not 100% sure they still have). Edit: I see they have voted to accept women members. Has Troon?

EDIT: Interestingly, robopz (who knows more about all things PGA Tour than the rest of us put together) suggested on one of my threads that the WGC-Cadillac issue regarding Doral is nothing much more than a smokescreen and that he reckons Doral will be reconfirmed as the venue. Hope I'm not misrepresenting your position robo?

by super_realist Tue 23 Feb - 13:14

I couldn't care less.

by McLaren Tue 23 Feb - 13:17

Super

What sort of behavior by the owner of a golf course would make you feel uncomfortable about them hosting a major (or any tour event?) tournament?

by super_realist Tue 23 Feb - 13:21

None, couldn't care less Mac.

by George1507 Tue 23 Feb - 13:25

2016 Troon
2017 Birkdale
2018 Carnoustie
2019 Portrush
2020 St Andrews
2021 Sandwich

is allegedly the schedule. You'd expect 2022 to be a Scottish venue, so either Turnberry or Muirfield I guess.

by McLaren Tue 23 Feb - 14:34

Super

So even if Assad owned a golf course you wouldn't care if it was used to host the Open?

by super_realist Tue 23 Feb - 14:36

Not really.

by kwinigolfer Tue 23 Feb - 14:49

If Assad staged a golf tournament, rest assured that Ted Cruz would "carpet bomb" it . . . . . . . .

by Roller_Coaster Tue 23 Feb - 15:03

kwinigolfer wrote: One thing I don't understand from the Slumbers statement is this:
"I'm pretty clear about where we are going and we are pretty clear about where we are going to be until 2021."

I think Slumbers is merely referring to the Open schedule which George kindly posted

George1507 wrote:2016 Troon
2017 Birkdale
2018 Carnoustie
2019 Portrush
2020 St Andrews
2021 Sandwich

I (possibly in my naivety...) didn't read anything more into it than that.

If Adolf Trump gets his way...

2022 Trumpberry
2023 Trumpton
2024 Trumpberry
2025 St Trumpdrews (He's bound to have tried to buy or annex it by then)

by McLaren Tue 23 Feb - 15:13

kwini

Don't be fooled by these clubs claiming to accept female members. All they do is invite a few high profile women to join and hope the subject is never raised again. Muirfield, R&A, RStG's etc probably have fewer female golfers combined than Gerry Watson has brain cells.

How official is the list posted by George, I assume not yet official given Kwini's comments about confirming it?

by kwinigolfer Tue 23 Feb - 15:20

Roller,
I wasn't trying to "read anything more into it than that"; I just haven't seen anything official, and especially in the context of speculation that St.Andrews might be shunted back to 2021.

Surely, if Adolf has his way, Scotland, at least, will have become the 51st State and the Open Championship will have been renamed?

Mac,
ALL of life, here at least, is subject to prejudicial practices that, in the clear light of day we wouldn't tolerate, but we do. Suspect these male bastions are pretty much the same.

by George1507 Tue 23 Feb - 15:56

McLaren wrote:kwini

How official is the list posted by George, I assume not yet official given Kwini's comments about confirming it?

Troon, Birkdale and Carnoustie are confirmed, Portrush is probable and the next two are likely.

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 23 Feb - 16:46

Personally, I don't think Turnberry should be considered as a result of that idiot's remarks. In any case, who gives a XXXX about Turnberry? There aren't other courses good enough, or potentially good enough, to host the Open instead?? Please. Actually, I couldn't give a scheiss in some ways as I won't be watching it in any case after the R&A's pathetic sell-out to Sky.

Slumbers has just kicked it down the road and is hoping it goes away. Problem is, by 2021 (or whenever) I think justification of past R&A practice and accommodating idiots like Trump will be even less tenable than it is now.

by Davie Tue 23 Feb - 20:21

Ah the old "sell out to Sky" again. Well done Navy we haven't had a thread for a while about how crap the BBC is!

by McLaren Tue 23 Feb - 20:46

Davie

Surely you can understand the disappointment those who do not have sky feel about missing out on seeing the Open?

I know you are single and can afford the monthly fee for sky but for others, especially trying to fund young families, the sky fee is prohibitive.

It is sad that the two main golfing events (Masters + Open) of the year that framed the season quite nicely are doomed to subscription TV.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 24 Feb - 8:34

Davie wrote:Ah the old "sell out to Sky" again. Well done Navy we haven't had a thread for a while about how crap the BBC is!

I was saying that I don't have Sky, therefore I won't be watching the Open. What part of that didn't you understand?

by Davie Wed 24 Feb - 9:15

navyblueshorts wrote:
Davie wrote:Ah the old "sell out to Sky" again. Well done Navy we haven't had a thread for a while about how crap the BBC is!
I was saying that I don't have Sky, therefore I won't be watching the Open. What part of that didn't you understand?

You said "R&A's pathetic sell-out to Sky" which is what I was talking about - which part of that didn't you understand?

by Davie Wed 24 Feb - 9:17

McLaren wrote:Davie

Surely you can understand the disappointment those who do not have sky feel about missing out on seeing the Open?

I know you are single and can afford the monthly fee for sky but for others, especially trying to fund young families, the sky fee is prohibitive.

It is sad that the two main golfing events (Masters + Open) of the year that framed the season quite nicely are doomed to subscription TV.

Yes I can understand it, I've said many times before I know I'm lucky that I *can* afford it. I wouldn't say they were "doomed" to subscription TV though. I'd only say that if the ghastly BT Sport got the rights

by super_realist Wed 24 Feb - 9:20

I don't have a Sky subscription even though I can "afford" it, I don't watch enough TV to justify a package, however, it's not an excuse for not being able to watch an event, just because Sky have it and BBC don't.

There is the option of Now TV, where you can get a package for a week at a time.
I've done it with The Masters and Ryder Cup and cost just £10 a time and can be viewed like normal TV through my Smart TV.

Sky gets a lot of stick for monopolising sport, but if you want to see it, it's available, and very cheaply.

by Bob_the_Job Wed 24 Feb - 9:21

It's called the Arc of Distortion - the difference between what you actually say, and what others choose to think or the impact it has on them. Happens a lot on here.

by MontysMerkin Wed 24 Feb - 9:28

Theres quite a few apps and live streams out there to watch any live sport you want.

by pedro Wed 24 Feb - 9:41

The hypocrisy surrounding this matter (Turnberry/Trump) is nauseating. In the past decades only a very few have questioned the discrimination of women and blacks by some of the core institutions in golf. Especially the a$$ki$$ing of Augusta National has always been sickening, where the “patrons” probably only leave their white hood at home because it doesn’t go well with green. And together with the geezers at several of the ole British Golf Clubs on the Open rota they all seem to believe women belong in the kitchen and in the bed, with only the most liberal allowing for the bed to moved out into the kitchen.

Now, Trump has made some rather populist or racist remarks about Mexicans etc. as part of election campaign, but why is that suddenly a big deal? Is he more racist or discriminatory than other geezers in the golfing world? Of course not – although it of course doesn’t justify it. Why not judge people on what they actually do (or refuse to do) (like R&A and Augusta) rather than on what they say? But Trumps problem of course is that he is a very controversial person - who now also happens to be a politician for the wrong party - which obviously has made him a favorite pray for the political correct class, going at him at every occasion. I am not defending Trump or his remarks, but I am opposing the hypocrisy in the matter. I would rather that the political correct elite went after the R&A and Augusta National instead of Mr. Hairdo.

by McLaren Wed 24 Feb - 11:22

Pedro, great post.

I guess Trump has just used more basic language to express his racism than we are used to. I have no doubt most of the right in America share his opinions.

I have tried to make the case on here for years that those with the political power in golf don't care about the discrimination still present and that the average club is still one of the most white male places you can visit. I would love if Augusta was boycotted and the R&A had to have a FIFA style set of resignations based on years of sexism but it isn't going to happen.

The Davies, raycastles and bobs of the golf world just find the insular atmosphere too comfortable to want to change it. Just remember, this is a world where a white guy can make disparaging fried chicken remarks about a black person and it is impossible to convince anyone that it was actually a problem.

by Davie Wed 24 Feb - 11:26

no insular atmosphere at my club Mac (or at least VERY little) - it's one of the more progressive clubs

by super_realist Wed 24 Feb - 11:34

Mac, can you give any examples of normal clubs in which there is discrimination?

by McLaren Wed 24 Feb - 11:46

You know the sort of stuff I am talking about.

Racist comments about Tiger when he was in his prime and on TV in the bar.

Constant jokes about how bad, slow, (insert insult) woman are.

Snide comments when someone of a lower socio economic class pulls up in the car park.

Never letting women on the committee make real changes to the way the club is run.

Doing nothing to open the game up to minority groups in the community.

And so on.

by MontysMerkin Wed 24 Feb - 11:52

Ladies are 'discouraged' to play on Saturdays at our place. I have heard them abused by members of our roll up, which is pretty amazing in this day and age. I fell out with one of them over this (he's off 26, giving an 8 h'cap female a load of Poopie in front of his mates.) I said I'd rather play with her than an old Kumquat who stinks of urine like him and he should do us all a favour and just Frak die already. This was met with great hilarity by his mates but they persist with their silly old Kumquat mentality. My wife won't take up golf for this very reason - they still have a ladies day on Thursday which she couldn't make as she works (earns 3 times what I do and is much more career focussed than I will ever be...)

by McLaren Wed 24 Feb - 12:05

Monty

Another great example of sexism in golf clubs. Women are harassed by other members to the point they need their own time to play, but that time is always on a weekday. Because women never work, right?

It is also pretty sad how often you hear women say they wouldn't go near the game due to the blatant sexism they would have to put up with.

by MontysMerkin Wed 24 Feb - 12:36

I did some work with the police about defensive driving some years ago, and their advice was how would you feel if it was your mum/sister/wife (all the same person in some places I know) being abused.

by Nay Wed 24 Feb - 12:42

Just out of curiosity how much money would holding an open bring in to the area around Turnberry and local businesses.

Is it likly that it would there increase temp job prospects, albiet on a short term basis.

I guess what i am saying is would removing Turnburry from the open rota because of one mans commenst,(no matter how inappropriate) not have the potential to impact many more people who rely on the Open behing held every so often.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 24 Feb - 12:45

Davie wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
Davie wrote:Ah the old "sell out to Sky" again. Well done Navy we haven't had a thread for a while about how crap the BBC is!
I was saying that I don't have Sky, therefore I won't be watching the Open. What part of that didn't you understand?

You said "R&A's pathetic sell-out to Sky" which is what I was talking about - which part of that didn't you understand?

Clearly both of us need to be clearer in our posts.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 24 Feb - 12:47

pedro wrote:The hypocrisy surrounding this matter (Turnberry/Trump) is nauseating. In the past decades only a very few have questioned the discrimination of women and blacks by some of the core institutions in golf. Especially the a$$ki$$ing of Augusta National has always been sickening, where the “patrons” probably only leave their white hood at home because it doesn’t go well with green. And together with the geezers at several of the ole British Golf Clubs on the Open rota they all seem to believe women belong in the kitchen and in the bed, with only the most liberal allowing for the bed to moved out into the kitchen.

Now, Trump has made some rather populist or racist remarks about Mexicans etc. as part of election campaign, but why is that suddenly a big deal? Is he more racist or discriminatory than other geezers in the golfing world? Of course not – although it of course doesn’t justify it. Why not judge people on what they actually do (or refuse to do) (like R&A and Augusta) rather than on what they say? But Trumps problem of course is that he is a very controversial person - who now also happens to be a politician for the wrong party - which obviously has made him a favorite pray for the political correct class, going at him at every occasion. I am not defending Trump or his remarks, but I am opposing the hypocrisy in the matter. I would rather that the political correct elite went after the R&A and Augusta National instead of Mr. Hairdo.

Meh. Call it a watershed moment and/or changing times....

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 24 Feb - 12:49

McLaren wrote:You know the sort of stuff I am talking about.

Racist comments about Tiger when he was in his prime and on TV in the bar.

Constant jokes about how bad, slow, (insert insult) woman are.

Snide comments when someone of a lower socio economic class pulls up in the car park.

Never letting women on the committee make real changes to the way the club is run.

Doing nothing to open the game up to minority groups in the community.

And so on.

Bollox. And I speak from experience of two clubs and recently being on the Committee at one of them. There are clearly individuals like that everywhere but, from my regular club experience, I haven't encountered it and we have plenty of members from mixed backgrounds.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 24 Feb - 12:51

MontysMerkin wrote:Ladies are 'discouraged' to play on Saturdays at our place. I have heard them abused by members of our roll up, which is pretty amazing in this day and age. I fell out with one of them over this (he's off 26, giving an 8 h'cap female a load of Poopie in front of his mates.) I said I'd rather play with her than an old Kumquat who stinks of urine like him and he should do us all a favour and just Frak die already. This was met with great hilarity by his mates but they persist with their silly old Kumquat mentality. My wife won't take up golf for this very reason - they still have a ladies day on Thursday which she couldn't make as she works (earns 3 times what I do and is much more career focussed than I will ever be...)

So, you detest this but still cough up the Subs every year? Peculiar...

by super_realist Wed 24 Feb - 13:12

The funny thing is that Mac seems to think a golf club should be something of a bastion of morality, when in fact it's probably no different from the rest of society,so why expect it to be different. All that he is asserting about clubs is nothing but pure conjecture anyway.

The claim about opening up the game to minorities is laughable. Any minority is just as able to join a club as Mac is.

by MontysMerkin Wed 24 Feb - 14:27

navyblueshorts wrote:
MontysMerkin wrote:Ladies are 'discouraged' to play on Saturdays at our place. I have heard them abused by members of our roll up, which is pretty amazing in this day and age. I fell out with one of them over this (he's off 26, giving an 8 h'cap female a load of Poopie in front of his mates.) I said I'd rather play with her than an old Kumquat who stinks of urine like him and he should do us all a favour and just Frak die already. This was met with great hilarity by his mates but they persist with their silly old Kumquat mentality. My wife won't take up golf for this very reason - they still have a ladies day on Thursday which she couldn't make as she works (earns 3 times what I do and is much more career focussed than I will ever be...)
So, you detest this but still cough up the Subs every year? Peculiar...

Yep and I haven't emigrated either. Crazy guy eh?

by Davie Wed 24 Feb - 21:35

I thought I'd update this with a tale I heard tonight from a friend of mine from my club....

I've regularly said my club is a progressive one and doesn't suffer (much) from the sort of attitude Mac refers to, but I had a chat with a fellow club member tonight who played yesterday (Tuesday) - apparently, the last vestiges of bad behaviour are still hanging on with the older, 5 day members....

My friend who is a 5-day senior (Smeg what am I saying, I'm eligible for the seniors this year although I haven't turned out with them yet) was playing a Tuesday roll up with two of his friends. They spent the first 9 holes stuck behind 4 elderly ladies who were painfully slow but showed no sign of letting the 3-ball through - my friend and his two partners must have had a combined age well over 200 themselves.

As they walked past the clubhouse from 9 to 10 they saw the 4 ladies' trolleys parked at the clubhouse, obviously leaving them there while they "powdered their noses". Unfortunately two of the three ball also needed to relieve themselves but when they returned from the locker room they found the 4 ladies had then gone into the halfway hut and ordered food. They asked if they could go on through and it was (according to my friend) grudgingly accepted.

They then had a free run at the back 9 with no one in front of them and the ladies were left well behind - until a single male player started to catch them up. My friend is a rather crusty old gent himself but for all his attitude is fairly progressive in his thinking too - and he said to his partners they should let the single through. One of the other two replied with what I thought was a dead opinion these days ... "but a single has no standing". I know this guy slightly too and I was horrified that attitude still stood. They eventually let him through but only after much grumbling

So even in progressive clubs this attitude still prevails amongst just a few...

by super_realist Wed 24 Feb - 21:43

I think it's just a fact that golfers are as much morons as the rest of society is, and to expect them to be arbiters of good behaviour, is incredibly naive of people like Mac.

There's unpleasant elements to every part of society, even those liberal bastions that Mac is so proud of, but the best way to confront it, is not simply ignore it, just as you would in a pub, place of work, etc.

I don't like my home club's clubhouse, so guess what, I don't go in. My other club has two bars, one with the type that Mac would probably call the police on, the other, a lot more pleasant.

You can't like everyone, and you can't agree with everyone's opinions, so I don't let it ruin my enjoyment of the game.

by 1GrumpyGolfer Wed 24 Feb - 21:58

Singles having no standing was removed from the rules of golf a while back Davie. It's now all about a faster game so if the single was quicker then he should play through.

by Davie Thu 25 Feb - 5:30

I know Grumps - that was the point I was trying to make. Amazed there are people who still think that!

by super_realist Thu 25 Feb - 7:04

I have been held up to such a point where I've just told them I'm playing through and given them no choice when held up by a group of people who could barely hit a ball.
There's no reason to wait to be asked if you're waiting on every shot and there is plenty space ahead.

by MontysMerkin Thu 25 Feb - 8:10

And you didn't tender your resignation in protest Davie? Shame on you...

by Davie Thu 25 Feb - 8:55

I wasn't there Monty - if you read again you will see this was a story told me by a friend. Had I been there I would certainly have put the guy right

by MontysMerkin Thu 25 Feb - 9:07

Just hearing the story should have been enough. You, sir, are a traitor to the revolution!

by **navyblueshorts** Thu 25 Feb - 10:48

MontysMerkin wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
MontysMerkin wrote:Ladies are 'discouraged' to play on Saturdays at our place. I have heard them abused by members of our roll up, which is pretty amazing in this day and age. I fell out with one of them over this (he's off 26, giving an 8 h'cap female a load of Poopie in front of his mates.) I said I'd rather play with her than an old Kumquat who stinks of urine like him and he should do us all a favour and just Frak die already. This was met with great hilarity by his mates but they persist with their silly old Kumquat mentality. My wife won't take up golf for this very reason - they still have a ladies day on Thursday which she couldn't make as she works (earns 3 times what I do and is much more career focussed than I will ever be...)
So, you detest this but still cough up the Subs every year? Peculiar...
Yep and I haven't emigrated either. Crazy guy eh?

Yep. A real laugh riot.

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