Ireland Squad Discussion

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Continuing on from Ireland Squad Announcement Thread.

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So onto the potentials then.... you mention Madigan.  There again I (forgive me ) - I say that's lazy thinking.  The 'other guy' that 'kicks' is seen as the only option.  Why?  

Tradition.  Have any of the other regulars been asked to try it?  Is there ever a practice session whereby some of the others are made test out their lasers on a goal or 10?  I doubt if they ever kick a ball between the posts even in a friendly post-training competition.  Nope.  Rugby is much too serious...leave it to the traditional kickers.... the 10 is always the best kicker on your team.  It's obvious.  It's a rule of thumb, innit?  At least Halfpenny always says so.

McFadden is a very good kicker, and I'd be very interested to know how much that fact informed his apparently 'baffling' selection on the bench, as well as his obvious versatility. The thing about contingency planning is that hopefully you don't get to see every contingency. Certainly McFadden was used as a back-up kicker by Schmidt at Leinster and Schmist would be well aware he has that string to his bow. How do we know he isn't kicking in practice? Can someone cite evidence for that or is a 'known unknown'? Obviously Madigan is the best place kicker in Ireland right now.

What I'd be interested to know is whether Sextons potential weakness as a kicker makes Madigan and McFadden more likely to be picked? If Sextons kicking does go completely to pot but we still need his all-round game at 10 you have McFadden. If not you have Madigan.

His selection isn't baffling to me at all. He usually plays very well for Ireland, he is very experienced and good all rounder and has a very good try scoring record for Ireland.

Granted we may have other players that can pirouette better than him or look better on camera but I cant remember a time he has let us down when he has played for Ireland so the criticism is definitely over blown.

I put those inverted commas in there for a reason Guns

...I said I was Gone!

Well not just yet.....

He does all of that ...true, slosty.  I'm not talking about any of that.  Obviously if he's 10, that requires a lot of boot skills and he's got them

The powers desert him when he sees two posts and the crowd go quiet.  The spotlight moment....

He's an average kicker of points at best.  If that's the best we have then so be it.  It's a pity we have a plethora of 'normal' when what we need is something like Wales has, a plethora of great kickers (for points) - and it ain't no accident either.  

I value Sexton highly but I also say he lands his team in the soup a few times by keeping us within striking distant of teams we should be beating easier.

I'm rambling now but just another point about Schmidt's lack of foresight... what the hell was Mike McCarthy doing ahead of Donnacha Ryan and Ultan Dillane?

SecretFly wrote:
I value Sexton highly but I also say he lands his team in the soup a few times by keeping us within striking distant of teams we should be beating easier.

Like the All blacks!

theslosty wrote:I'm rambling now but just another point about Schmidt's lack of foresight... what the hell was Mike McCarthy doing ahead of Donnacha Ryan and Ultan Dillane?

He's an exceptional points kicker if Sexton was to go through injury.....

Interesting to see that Jerry Guscott ranked Robbie Henshaw as Ireland's best player in the tournament, describing him as a "multi-dimensional player". For me Henshaw is very underrated both inside and outside Ireland.

I know we over hype some of our young players but people seem to be afraid to praise Henshaw, there were calls for him to be dropped and that Payne and McCloskey are better centres. Payne organises the defence excellently but let's be real here, Henshaw is miles ahead in attack.

Even if he is being played slightly out of position I think he's been Ireland's most consistent player over the last 18 months, I haven't seen him play a poor game in green.

(It's not very often I recommend Jeremy Guscott's views btw)

theslosty wrote:Interesting to see that Jerry Guscott ranked Robbie Henshaw as Ireland's best player in the tournament, describing him as a "multi-dimensional player". For me Henshaw is very underrated both inside and outside Ireland.

I know we over hype some of our young players but people seem to be afraid to praise Henshaw, there were calls for him to be dropped and that Payne and McCloskey are better centres. Payne organises the defence excellently but let's be real here, Henshaw is miles ahead in attack.

Even if he is being played slightly out of position I think he's been Ireland's most consistent player over the last 18 months, I haven't seen him play a poor game in green.

(It's not very often I recommend Jeremy Guscott's views btw)

Guscott is clueless. I actually think Henshaw is over hyped at the moment. His main attribute (which Ireland lack) is his size. He is still young and I expect him to turn out well.

Payne's organisation of the defence hasn't being going too well, now has it If Keith Earls was the outside centre when all those tries were leaked, he would be destroyed. Its really interesting that Payne (who is there for his defence apparently) gets no criticism.

Sin é wrote:

theslosty wrote:Interesting to see that Jerry Guscott ranked Robbie Henshaw as Ireland's best player in the tournament, describing him as a "multi-dimensional player". For me Henshaw is very underrated both inside and outside Ireland.

I know we over hype some of our young players but people seem to be afraid to praise Henshaw, there were calls for him to be dropped and that Payne and McCloskey are better centres. Payne organises the defence excellently but let's be real here, Henshaw is miles ahead in attack.

Even if he is being played slightly out of position I think he's been Ireland's most consistent player over the last 18 months, I haven't seen him play a poor game in green.

(It's not very often I recommend Jeremy Guscott's views btw)

Guscott is clueless. I actually think Henshaw is over hyped at the moment. His main attribute (which Ireland lack) is his size. He is still young and I expect him to turn out well.

Payne's organisation of the defence hasn't being going too well, now has it  If Keith Earls was the outside centre when all those tries were leaked, he would be destroyed. Its really interesting that Payne (who is there for his defence apparently) gets no criticism.

I forgot Henshaw is D4-bound...

I think that's a ridiculous comment though. Henshaw has decent pace, footwork, handling skills, defence, kicking ability - he has all the Schmidt traits too like a great workrate, breakdown ability and chases kicks very well.

Re Earls/Payne you are right but our linespeed was extremely poor without Payne vs England and Argentina.

theslosty wrote:Interesting to see that Jerry Guscott ranked Robbie Henshaw as Ireland's best player in the tournament, describing him as a "multi-dimensional player". For me Henshaw is very underrated both inside and outside Ireland.

I know we over hype some of our young players but people seem to be afraid to praise Henshaw,

Can't agree with that.

Payne showed in the final two games that Robbie has a long way to go as an international 13, especially in defense, and why they are bedding him in at 12 between experienced players rather than outside the similarly inexperienced McCloskey.

My only gripe with that is that McCloskey is the better of the two players (at 12 at least).

Henshaw is a very good player but Bundiaki and Payne need to take a lot of credit for his performances over the past season or so.

There isn't enough evidence to suggest McCloskey is better than Henshaw right now. When they played beside each other Henshaw made the bigger impact although of course McCloskey would have been slightly nervous.

When Henshaw played 13 we conceded 2 tries vs England. With Payne we then conceded 2 tries vs Italy and 3 vs Scotland...
I know this is selective but Wales and France were totally different types of games.

Which player do you think opposition teams are more worried about Henshaw or Payne? If your truthful answer is Payne then I can only agree to disagree.

Sin é wrote:

Guscott is clueless. I actually think Henshaw is over hyped at the moment. His main attribute (which Ireland lack) is his size. He is still young and I expect him to turn out well.

Payne's organisation of the defence hasn't being going too well, now has it  If Keith Earls was the outside centre when all those tries were leaked, he would be destroyed. Its really interesting that Payne (who is there for his defence apparently) gets no criticism.

You cant blame Payne for Zebo's defensive frailties. The majority of Ireland's tries were conceded out wide. You would need to be a master of spin to blame Payne for them.

theslosty wrote:

Sin é wrote:

theslosty wrote:Interesting to see that Jerry Guscott ranked Robbie Henshaw as Ireland's best player in the tournament, describing him as a "multi-dimensional player". For me Henshaw is very underrated both inside and outside Ireland.

I know we over hype some of our young players but people seem to be afraid to praise Henshaw, there were calls for him to be dropped and that Payne and McCloskey are better centres. Payne organises the defence excellently but let's be real here, Henshaw is miles ahead in attack.

Even if he is being played slightly out of position I think he's been Ireland's most consistent player over the last 18 months, I haven't seen him play a poor game in green.

(It's not very often I recommend Jeremy Guscott's views btw)

Guscott is clueless. I actually think Henshaw is over hyped at the moment. His main attribute (which Ireland lack) is his size. He is still young and I expect him to turn out well.

Payne's organisation of the defence hasn't being going too well, now has it  If Keith Earls was the outside centre when all those tries were leaked, he would be destroyed. Its really interesting that Payne (who is there for his defence apparently) gets no criticism.

I forgot Henshaw is D4-bound...

I think that's a ridiculous comment though. Henshaw has decent pace, footwork, handling skills, defence, kicking ability - he has all the Schmidt traits too like a great workrate, breakdown ability and chases kicks very well.

Re Earls/Payne you are right but our linespeed was extremely poor without Payne vs England and Argentina.

I was very disappointed he left Connacht. I think (at his age) he could have given them another 2 years before dumping them.

The reason he is going there is to bed in beside Sexton which will give him an edge over anyone else in contention. As I said, Henshaw has most the physical attributes required. I don't think he has the head for it yet (which will come with experience).

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Guscott is clueless. I actually think Henshaw is over hyped at the moment. His main attribute (which Ireland lack) is his size. He is still young and I expect him to turn out well.

Payne's organisation of the defence hasn't being going too well, now has it  If Keith Earls was the outside centre when all those tries were leaked, he would be destroyed. Its really interesting that Payne (who is there for his defence apparently) gets no criticism.

You cant blame Payne for Zebo's defensive frailties. The majority of Ireland's tries were conceded out wide. You would need to be a master of spin to blame Payne for them.

Earls was blamed (by BOD no less) for the Kearney bros. missed tackles as the defensive organiser. He said Payne would have done better.

Well, he hasn't.

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Guscott is clueless. I actually think Henshaw is over hyped at the moment. His main attribute (which Ireland lack) is his size. He is still young and I expect him to turn out well.

Payne's organisation of the defence hasn't being going too well, now has it  If Keith Earls was the outside centre when all those tries were leaked, he would be destroyed. Its really interesting that Payne (who is there for his defence apparently) gets no criticism.

You cant blame Payne for Zebo's defensive frailties. The majority of Ireland's tries were conceded out wide. You would need to be a master of spin to blame Payne for them.

Earls was blamed (by BOD no less) for the Kearney bros. missed tackles as the defensive organiser. He said Payne would have done better.

Well, he hasn't.

So you agree that it was mostly Zebo's fault? Positionally he can be really really weak.

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Guscott is clueless. I actually think Henshaw is over hyped at the moment. His main attribute (which Ireland lack) is his size. He is still young and I expect him to turn out well.

Payne's organisation of the defence hasn't being going too well, now has it  If Keith Earls was the outside centre when all those tries were leaked, he would be destroyed. Its really interesting that Payne (who is there for his defence apparently) gets no criticism.

You cant blame Payne for Zebo's defensive frailties. The majority of Ireland's tries were conceded out wide. You would need to be a master of spin to blame Payne for them.

Earls was blamed (by BOD no less) for the Kearney bros. missed tackles as the defensive organiser. He said Payne would have done better.

Well, he hasn't.

So you agree that it was mostly Zebo's fault?

How could Zebo be responsible? He wasn't close to being able to tackle. Payne, as defense organiser, should have been able to sort that out.

He wasn't close because he was out of position so often. Worst defender in the team.

The criticism of Earls' defence was unfair - he had a fantastic defensive game vs France at 13 - but it is true that Zebo is caught out positionally a lot at 15. I do think we should persist with him as he is still learning the position but even the two Italian tries a more experienced full back might have been better placed.

theslosty wrote:The criticism of Earls' defence was unfair - he had a fantastic defensive game vs France at 13 - but it is true that Zebo is caught out positionally a lot at 15. I do think we should persist with him as he is still learning the position but even the two Italian tries a more experienced full back might have been better placed.

...... if he was one of triplets. No 15 was going to cover the acres of room we give to sides willing to throw the long ball.

It's so painfully blatant now that it must be a ruse to catch the SAs out with!

Henshaw has all the physical talents, but none of the subtleties of an international 12. He will waste a great deal of his potential if he is moving to Leinster to play at inside centre. Payne has the subtleties but none of the physical talents of an international 13. Neither man is suited to the position they are being asked to play.

JmD wrote:Henshaw has all the physical talents, but none of the subtleties of an international 12. He will waste a great deal of his potential if he is moving to Leinster to play at inside centre. Payne has the subtleties but none of the physical talents of an international 13. Neither man is suited to the position they are being asked to play.

I think Henshaw is better in wider channels too, but he has a lot of subtleties to his game. I think thats doing him a bit of a disservice. His footwork and decision making is uniformly good.

As for Payne, I don't think he has it in him to be an international fullback. I think he did when he first arrived at Ulster, but then that was when he was also eyeing up Conrad Smiths All Blacks shirt as well. I think we've seen Payne put the myth that he can't pass or offload when playing 13 to bed- thoroughly- in the last two games. I think we've seen him and Henshaw make a lot of intelligent decisions when they have the ball in attack and also. However, I think he lacks the pace he had before his injury just a few games into his Ulster career. I would worry he can be exposed in that position. His fielding of the high ball is good but not amazing, his kicking is good but not amazing.

I think Payne has earned every one of his caps.

Payne really isn't strong or fast enough to ever be a top level 13. I know people always point to Conrad Smith as a counter to this, but Smith has one of the top rugby brains in the world and is surrounded by elite talent, he's really the exception. Payne will never be on the same level, I really would rather see Henshaw given the time at 13. At least he has the potential to be a top player, even if he makes the odd mistake along the way.

But if he isn't strong enough or fast enough to be a top level 13, why should he then be considered as being strong enough and fast enough to be a top level 15?

The difference with the 15 position for Ireland is there aren't really any players that deserve the place ahead of him. Kearney is over the hill, Zebo is fast but fundamentally patchy, O'Halloran is seemingly out in the cold. To me, Payne is the best 15 in Ireland.

Zebo's positioning may not be spot on all the time now but Kearney made plenty of mistakes when he moved to FB from the wing at Leinster.

The problem with pinning Zebo as the next full back is that Foley seems to prefer Conway in the position for Munster. If he played there every week he'd probably become very solid quite quickly.

I like Conway at full-back. is he good enough for test level?

Pot Hale wrote:I like Conway at full-back.   is he good enough for test level?

Not even close. We do need to look for options at 15 though. It was nice having a full back in Zebo that was actually able to counter attack.

I think we're in a decent place heading into the next few years.We're still very light at TH and SH,lock is bare but not as bad, other than that we have some depth in every spot.

I like the direction we're heading in our playing style and I am hopeful that Farrell can correct our malfunctioning defense,this in turn will free up Easterby and Schmidt to concentrate on their jobs.Our lineout and maul need to get back up to previous standards while our attack shows promise but still has a way to go especially once we get into the opponents 22.

One last word for Rory Best who had a tough campaign o begin his captaincy,I thought he grew into the role and was much more vocal and influential as the tournament progressed.Hopefully we'll see that continue in the Summer where with a bit of luck with injuries I'd be very hopeful we can have a successful tour.

To clarify I was not saying Healy, SOB, Kearney and Bowe are, necessarily, at the end of their career but that there is a perception that age, injuries and GPS suggest these guys are slowing down and starting to struggle.

The perception is that Best and Heaslip, of the older players, seem to be of more durable stock and show no sign of slowing down.

One of the NFL’s top talent coaches is joining the Irish Rugby setup
Nick Winkelman is the IRFU’s new Head of Athletic Performance and Science.

http://www.the42.ie/nick-winkelman-irish-rugby-2676620-Mar2016/

profitius wrote:One of the NFL’s top talent coaches is joining the Irish Rugby setup
Nick Winkelman is the IRFU’s new Head of Athletic Performance and Science.

http://www.the42.ie/nick-winkelman-irish-rugby-2676620-Mar2016/

Sure why would Ireland need to waste money on a speed coach!??? ...... oh aye ...... right enough .... it's a fantastic appointment

Munchkin wrote:

profitius wrote:One of the NFL’s top talent coaches is joining the Irish Rugby setup
Nick Winkelman is the IRFU’s new Head of Athletic Performance and Science.

http://www.the42.ie/nick-winkelman-irish-rugby-2676620-Mar2016/

Sure why would Ireland need to waste money on a speed coach!??? ...... oh aye ...... right enough .... it's a fantastic appointment

Secretfly will be happy anyway.


Sounds like a good appointment alright. You'd expect the NFL to be a bit ahead of rugby in these kind of things.

They are rather different sports in terms of fitness requirements. I wouldn't say they are ahead, but different.

Whatever about anything else, he has an excellent twitter game

https://i.servimg.com/u/f84/16/53/77/41/screen10.jpg

Sin é wrote:Whatever about anything else, he has an excellent twitter game

https://i.servimg.com/u/f84/16/53/77/41/screen10.jpg

Is he one of the Sligo Winkleman's?

Just watched the Connacht-Leinster game on tape and first thought that comes is how can Denis Buckley continue to be ignored - brilliant in the loose and a rock in the scrum against both Furlong and Ross. Bealham made mincemeat of Healy who sad to say is a really a pale shadow of what he was in his prime and it's surely a bonus that we now have a prop who can play both sides of the scrum.

Marmion excellent too and is surely now the clear number two to Murray. Connacht back row uniformly excellent, hadn't seen much of McKeon before but he was a giant.

brennomac wrote:Just watched the Connacht-Leinster game on tape and first thought that comes is how can Denis Buckley continue to be ignored - brilliant in the loose and a rock in the scrum against both Furlong and Ross. Bealham made mincemeat of Healy who sad to say is a really a pale  shadow of what he was in his prime and it's surely a bonus that we now have a prop who can play both sides of the scrum.

Marmion excellent too and is surely now the clear number two to Murray. Connacht back row uniformly excellent, hadn't seen much of McKeon before but he was a giant.

Eoin McKeon is a really good player. He is primarily a Number 8. I always thought he could push for higher honours and now that Connacht are fighting to be the top province he might be able to show his worth.

The Connacht back row is generally outstanding. Muldoon, Masterson, Fox-Matamua, Heenan, Connolly, McKeon, Naoupu... quite a contingent.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

brennomac wrote:Just watched the Connacht-Leinster game on tape and first thought that comes is how can Denis Buckley continue to be ignored - brilliant in the loose and a rock in the scrum against both Furlong and Ross. Bealham made mincemeat of Healy who sad to say is a really a pale  shadow of what he was in his prime and it's surely a bonus that we now have a prop who can play both sides of the scrum.

Marmion excellent too and is surely now the clear number two to Murray. Connacht back row uniformly excellent, hadn't seen much of McKeon before but he was a giant.

Eoin McKeon is a really good player. He is primarily a Number 8. I always thought he could push for higher honours and now that Connacht are fighting to be the top province he might be able to show his worth.

The Connacht back row is generally outstanding. Muldoon, Masterson, Fox-Matamua, Heenan, Connolly, McKeon, Naoupu... quite a contingent.

They certainly do have riches there. McKeon has been very good since coming back from injury. Sean O'Brien II looks fairly handy also. He was highly rated and captained Ireland U20s but has been bogged down by injuries for a few years. He has gotten his chance and not looked out of place.


Cian Healy should be told to take a 6 month sabbatical and get his body right. Peter Dooley is far ahead of his at this stage.

Seems like Buckley is genuinely hard done by.

On merit Buckley should be in the Irish squad not Healy - then again he wears the wrong coloured shirt.

Talking of wrong coloured shirts Madigan was awful

There really can be no excuse if Cian Healy is selected for the summer tests. I sincerely hope that he isn't. He isn't Pro 12 quality at the minute and he isn't anywhere near the top 5 looseheads in the country.

Paulie is in Grenoble at the moment. Been linked to a coaching job there. Good move for him to learn his trade

Cian Healy's displays lately makes a mockery of Schmidt's decision to pick him. He isn't half the player he was and needs some time off from the game to let his body recover.

geoff999rugby wrote:On merit Buckley should be in the Irish squad not Healy - then again he wears the wrong coloured shirt.

Talking of wrong coloured shirts Madigan was awful

Yeah Connacht players just don't get caps under the current Irish coach.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:On merit Buckley should be in the Irish squad not Healy - then again he wears the wrong coloured shirt.

Talking of wrong coloured shirts Madigan was awful

Yeah Connacht players just don't get caps under the current Irish coach.

To be fair the likes of Dillane, White or Bealham wouldn't have had a chance had there not been significant injuries in the pack.

Golden wrote:Paulie is in Grenoble at the moment. Been linked to a coaching job there. Good move for him to learn his trade

He is on a skiing holiday with the family and staying with his close friend Mike Prendergast who is the Backs Coach.

profitius wrote:Cian Healy's displays lately makes a mockery of Schmidt's decision to pick him. He isn't half the player he was and needs some time off from the game to let his body recover.

He just got a 3 year central contract, so they need to get him fit.

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:Cian Healy's displays lately makes a mockery of Schmidt's decision to pick him. He isn't half the player he was and needs some time off from the game to let his body recover.

He just got a 3 year central contract, so they need to get him fit.

When was he offered an extension to his contract? That is absurd. I understand that it is to keep him in Ireland but quite frankly I cannot see him regaining his old form and we have an abundance of riches in the position nowadays.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:Cian Healy's displays lately makes a mockery of Schmidt's decision to pick him. He isn't half the player he was and needs some time off from the game to let his body recover.

He just got a 3 year central contract, so they need to get him fit.

When was he offered an extension to his contract? That is absurd. I understand that it is to keep him in Ireland but quite frankly I cannot see him regaining his old form and we have an abundance of riches in the position nowadays.

In the middle of February (2016)!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/breaking-cian-healy-signs-threeyear-central-contract-with-irfu-to-remain-at-leinster-34462434.html

Jack McGrath does not have a central contract. Its hard to figure this one out. They need to look after the players, but 3 years seems to have been a bit much, especially when you think that a fit Keith Earls nearly went to Saracens because he wanted a 3 year contract and the IRFU were only offering him a 2 year one.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:

profitius wrote:Cian Healy's displays lately makes a mockery of Schmidt's decision to pick him. He isn't half the player he was and needs some time off from the game to let his body recover.

He just got a 3 year central contract, so they need to get him fit.

When was he offered an extension to his contract? That is absurd. I understand that it is to keep him in Ireland but quite frankly I cannot see him regaining his old form and we have an abundance of riches in the position nowadays.

In the middle of February (2016)!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/leinster-rugby/breaking-cian-healy-signs-threeyear-central-contract-with-irfu-to-remain-at-leinster-34462434.html

Jack McGrath does not have a central contract. Its hard to figure this one out. They need to look after the players, but 3 years seems to have been a bit much, especially when you think that a fit Keith Earls nearly went to Saracens because he wanted a 3 year contract and the IRFU were only offering him a 2 year one.

Age. The senior players get central contracts. Yes, the players past their peak get central contracts!
Central contracts have been good for Irish rugby but its time to scrap them IMO.


As for Healy, handing him a central contract looks a waste now, however you can also argue that he probably deserves one for his years of service. They gave DOC a 3 year central contract a few years back and after a year he was struggling to make the Munster team.