Ireland Squad Discussion

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Continuing on from Ireland Squad Announcement Thread.

Am I right in saying the only one likely to miss the tour through injury at this stage is POM?

Considering South Africa have a new coach and likely new combinations we should be going over in a relatively good place.

Our players should be well rested with Connachts game at the weekend been the last involvement in Europe. Plus at least one, possibly two provinces wont make the play offs for the league.

The first game which is at sea level in Cape Town is a big opportunity to get a win.

profitius wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

profitius wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

profitius wrote:Connacht stars at disadvantage in fight for Ireland call - McKeon

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/connacht-stars-at-disadvantage-in-fight-for-ireland-call-mckeon-34612568.html


Fair play to him for saying it. The players in Connacht would have watched Jordi Murphy start a world cup 1/4 final and must be baffled.

Which players would be baffled, give us some names?

Do you think Jordi Murphy is better than any Connacht backrow?

Well you've totally avoided my question and shifted the goalposts.Yes I do happen to think Murphy is a better backrow than any of Connacht's at 6 or 8.

The point you made is that the Connacht players would have been baffled by his selection,were these Connacht players playing better than Murphy at the end of last season?I really doubt you can make a serious case that any of them were,the fact that Murphy's form has dipped and the Connacht players have risen in the meantime is irrelevant.I doubt you made any calls for Connacht backrowers to be in the squad before the WC?

Well well. Do you think Jordi still deserves to be ahead of the Connacht lads? Form is certainly irrelevant to Schmidt.


I didn't avoid your question btw. You asked which Connacht players would be baffled. McKeon for one but I don't know about the others because I can't read their minds.

Yeah Murphy deserves to be in there, who would you have ahead of him?

Just had a look at the 44 man squad - just wondering (I'm Scottish) why there are so few Connacht players (about 4) in the squad? They are playing well and most are IQ?

Nematode wrote:Just had a look at the 44 man squad - just wondering (I'm Scottish) why there are so few Connacht players (about 4) in the squad? They are playing well and most are IQ?

Connacht has the most foreign players in its squad than any other province. That probably doesn't help. Also I counted about 6.

There probably should be less Munster players as they are the weakest province at the moment.

Peter O'Mahony who is injured and will more than likely not be travelling to SA should definitely not be in the squad.

Buckley can feel aggrieved,Healy is there on reputation and Kilcoyne is decent but neither of them have shown anything close to his form over the last year.

GunsGerms wrote:Peter O'Mahony who is injured and will more than likely not be travelling to SA should definitely not be in the squad.

Whats the harm in having a player come down for the day to reacquaint himself with the calls, the tactics and see the medic and physios in the Ireland set-up etc.? It's not a zero sum game. He's not there instead of someone else. They pick the players they think they will use in the next year or so for these camps, there's no minimum or maximum number. The one limiting factor on numbers as far as I can tell is if they don't think they will use a player they leave him with their province so as to not disrupt them more than necessary, but it's not like O'Mahony is doing anything bar rehab.

I have to say, watching Chris Farrell playing for Grenoble over the weekend was very pleasing for an Ulster fan. He quite thoroughly outplayed Henshaw at 13, which was a little surprising (but then again, Henshaw hasn't had the opportunity to play at 13 often at all this year). If he can show that kind of form consistently at a high level, I wonder will he return and push for Irish honours? It is extremely competitive in the centres, of course.

Does anyone know how long his contract is at Grenoble?

It's a real shame that we have been unable to move players around the provinces, because if a talent like Farrell came through in any other position at Ulster he would be straight into the team (Allen Clarke notwithstanding).

It was Farrell and McCloskey competing against each other for one contract, and time will tell which will be better. Honestly think they have similar ceilings as players, I still think McCloskey might be marginally better.

Munster and Leinster should be monitoring his situation very closely indeed.

Irrespective of contracts or opportunities at other provinces, Farrell wanted to experience France - sometimes it's not all about the money.

The Great Aukster wrote:Irrespective of contracts or opportunities at other provinces, Farrell wanted to experience France - sometimes it's not all about the money.

And fair play to him. Indeed, there are some who would say that living at the foot of the Alps is better than living in Limerick or Belfast!

Not me though. I see those people as the deluded fantasists they truly are.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, watching Chris Farrell playing for Grenoble over the weekend was very pleasing for an Ulster fan. He quite thoroughly outplayed Henshaw at 13

What was pleasing about it, he plays for Grenoble lol?!

Henshaw is pretty overrated at this stage to be honest - good young player but is being carried a bit for club and country by Bundiaki and Payne. McCloskey and Marshall are both as good if not better but don't benefit from the IRFU hype machine because they don't sell as many replica jerseys - He's part of the IRFU golden goose generation along with O'Mahoney, Kearney, Murray, Heaslip, Sexton and Madigan......

Farrell was a year ahead of of MCCloskey and not in direct competition.

He was offered a very good contract - he did not play that well the year before he left.
My impression is he believed he had blown his chance to be a first choice centre at Ulster and reckoned he had to leave to get 1st XV rugby.

Ulster had more faith in him, than he did in himself

I also agree with Rodders lot of over hyping of Henshaw.
A very good young prospect but the second coming he is not.
There are centres around as good, if not better.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, watching Chris Farrell playing for Grenoble over the weekend was very pleasing for an Ulster fan. He quite thoroughly outplayed Henshaw at 13

What was pleasing about it, he plays for Grenoble lol?!

Henshaw is pretty overrated at this stage to be honest - good young player but is being carried a bit for club and country by Bundiaki and Payne. McCloskey and Marshall are both as good if not better but don't benefit from the IRFU hype machine because they don't sell as many replica jerseys - He's part of the IRFU golden goose generation along with O'Mahoney, Kearney, Murray, Heaslip, Sexton and Madigan......

In retrospect I could have worded that better. 

However, it is great to see another Ulster centre thriving. If he had remained with us then he might not have received the same experience playing top level rugby. One of our talented centres would have been playing for the Ravens. Olding, Marshall, McCloskey, Farrell... that is quite the production line at centre. Obviously with Sam Arnold moving to Munster as well, who has potential.

I think Farrell is a different sort of player to the rest. He and McCloskey are probably the most similar, but he is of slighter build and a rangy sort of runner. He looked very quick and strong against Connacht. He looks much more suited to the 13 jersey as well, while McCloskey seems more at home at 12. I assume Farrell has another year with Grenoble and should be free around the same time that Francis Saili's contract is up at Munster. I would watch that one with interest.

Ireland are certainly stocked in the centres and the back row.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, watching Chris Farrell playing for Grenoble over the weekend was very pleasing for an Ulster fan. He quite thoroughly outplayed Henshaw at 13

What was pleasing about it, he plays for Grenoble lol?!

Henshaw is pretty overrated at this stage to be honest - good young player but is being carried a bit for club and country by Bundiaki and Payne. McCloskey and Marshall are both as good if not better but don't benefit from the IRFU hype machine because they don't sell as many replica jerseys - He's part of the IRFU golden goose generation along with O'Mahoney, Kearney, Murray, Heaslip, Sexton and Madigan......

Henshaw isn't overrated. He is a young player who has looked comfortable playing international rugby. He is a good all round player and will improve and he also is a terrific athlete and level headed for his age.


As for Payne or Aki carrying him, how do you make that out? I suspect your rating of Henshaw has more to do with him being picked ahead of Ulster players.

profitius wrote:

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, watching Chris Farrell playing for Grenoble over the weekend was very pleasing for an Ulster fan. He quite thoroughly outplayed Henshaw at 13

What was pleasing about it, he plays for Grenoble lol?!

Henshaw is pretty overrated at this stage to be honest - good young player but is being carried a bit for club and country by Bundiaki and Payne. McCloskey and Marshall are both as good if not better but don't benefit from the IRFU hype machine because they don't sell as many replica jerseys - He's part of the IRFU golden goose generation along with O'Mahoney, Kearney, Murray, Heaslip, Sexton and Madigan......

Henshaw isn't overrated. He is a young player who has looked comfortable playing international rugby. He is a good all round player and will improve and he also is a terrific athlete and level headed for his age.


As for Payne or Aki carrying him, how do you make that out? I suspect your rating of Henshaw has more to do with him being picked ahead of Ulster players.

He is a terrific player but no more so than some other guys who aren't plastered all over billboards. Gee people have even touted him as a potential Ireland captain.

He has looked comfortable at international level but only alongside more experienced players - same at Connacht. That's not knocking him but consider the double standards with the Jackson/Pienaar combo at Ulster.

Henshaw is a talented kid who can do a good job alongside someone to guide him but his career to date has been blown out of proportion a bit.

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to say, watching Chris Farrell playing for Grenoble over the weekend was very pleasing for an Ulster fan. He quite thoroughly outplayed Henshaw at 13

What was pleasing about it, he plays for Grenoble lol?!

Henshaw is pretty overrated at this stage to be honest - good young player but is being carried a bit for club and country by Bundiaki and Payne. McCloskey and Marshall are both as good if not better but don't benefit from the IRFU hype machine because they don't sell as many replica jerseys - He's part of the IRFU golden goose generation along with O'Mahoney, Kearney, Murray, Heaslip, Sexton and Madigan......

Rodders what the Gilchrist are you talking about?! He is part of the golden goose generation? He is 22! Four years younger, about 25 caps, and a lions tour behind the next youngest player you mention there. He came on the scene as a regular the same time as Payne.

How you think he is carrying him is beyond me. Ireland's best centre pairing this six nations was McCloskey and Henshaw, looked far more dangerous in attack and conceded the same amount of tries away in Twickenham as we did at home against Italy with Superjesus Payne leading the line. At Connacht himself and Bundie have a very good understanding too, as you might have seen for the try against Munster, they complement each other very well.

You surely have to see your bias in thinking Ulster have all the centre top trumps! Marshall and Olding are great players, and will be pushing if they can stay fit, but Henshaw is further along in his development than either player at a younger age.

I think you are just annoyed that he is a good looking young lad on billboards

As I said above, Farrell had a great game, if I were him I wonder whether I would give up the happy stint in France to come back to Ireland for the chance of caps. Would be difficult to touch up that tan in Limerick!

rodders wrote:He is a terrific player but no more so than some other guys who aren't plastered all over billboards. Gee people have even touted him as a potential Ireland captain.

Who would you prefer? I mean it's not like you can put Toner (a walking billboard) or McCarthy's visage up there and expect to sell shirts. Tommy Bowe's big grin would be on those posters the whole time even while he was injured and sat on his hole at home watching the games like the rest of us

I don't care who's on the billboards I care who's on the pitch

And if you think its Ulster bias then I will happily admit he is better than Cave

Ha that's very big of you rodders, knew we could reach an agreement! You'd argue the merits or the Ulster waterboy over any in the other provinces all day if it came up, I know well

To be honest feck Henshaw he is leaving us anyway, let someone else argue his corner! I'm more annoyed at Buckley being overlooked again, what does the man have to do?

Play for Leinster?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Play for Leinster?

Harsh but true.....

Yeah cos Schmidt just doesn't pick Connacht players :-?

It would be naive to think Schmidt doesn't have a preference towards the Leinster players. He did win titles with them, after all. Denis Buckley would be already in the Ireland squad well before now had he played for Leinster. He would be battling with Jack McGrath for a starting spot.

I think that much is obvious. Of course Schmidt doesn't pick solely Leinster players but he has a very understandable bias towards them. The problem is when it is at the expense of players who are significantly better.

Well, thats not so straightforward as we make out. I really don't think Buckley is close competing for a starting spot but I agree Buckley should be in the wider squad, but it's a choice between Buckley's form and Healy's potential to return to his best form.

It's a gamble sticking with Healy because he may never get back to that- they have access to educated guesses as opposed to our uneducated guesses on the medical prognosis, but they still can't be certain. Anyway if that gamble does pay off it will pay off very handsomely indeed.

Personally I'm still a fan of Kilcoyne who seems to be the forgotten man in all of this and was sufficiently impressed by him since he broke through to feel he's worth persevering with.

I think the bias lies with the IRFU - every Ireland team selection has a clear and obvious dynamic about it - give Schmidt is a New Zealander why would he favour Munster versus Ulster or Connacht?

No the bias runs deeper imo and through all levels of the game.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It would be naive to think Schmidt doesn't have a preference towards the Leinster players. He did win titles with them, after all. Denis Buckley would be already in the Ireland squad well before now had he played for Leinster. He would be battling with Jack McGrath for a starting spot.

I think that much is obvious. Of course Schmidt doesn't pick solely Leinster players but he has a very understandable bias towards them. The problem is when it is at the expense of players who are significantly better.

That's very different from saying that Buckley needs to play for Leinster to get a chance.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It would be naive to think Schmidt doesn't have a preference towards the Leinster players. He did win titles with them, after all. Denis Buckley would be already in the Ireland squad well before now had he played for Leinster. He would be battling with Jack McGrath for a starting spot.

I think that much is obvious. Of course Schmidt doesn't pick solely Leinster players but he has a very understandable bias towards them. The problem is when it is at the expense of players who are significantly better.

That's very different from saying that Buckley needs to play for Leinster to get a chance.

Of course he has a chance.... if the first, second and third choice LH props at Leinster and Munster are injured he has every chance of getting a few caps from Joe

Good one.

Notch wrote:It's a gamble sticking with Healy because he may never get back to that- they have access to educated guesses as opposed to our uneducated guesses on the medical prognosis, but they still can't be certain. Anyway if that gamble does pay off it will pay off very handsomely indeed.

Bit weird to reply to my own post, but obviously the IRFU have staked a precious central contract on this gamble (a questionable decision) and thats got to be a factor as well.

Nematode wrote:Just had a look at the 44 man squad - just wondering (I'm Scottish) why there are so few Connacht players (about 4) in the squad? They are playing well and most are IQ?

They are playing well but so are plenty of players from other provinces who are proven internationals. Critics of the Irish management are keen to infer bias by pointing out that Connacht are 2nd in the league and yet only have 6 of 44 players in the latest squad but the question should really be 'who' would you have in the squad ahead of those that have been picked. Buckley and O'Halloran may have been a little unlucky but they would be in the squad ahead of Kearney/Zebo or Healy/McGrath

Notch wrote:Well, thats not so straightforward as we make out. I really don't think Buckley is close competing for a starting spot but I agree Buckley should be in the wider squad, but it's a choice between Buckley's form and Healy's potential to return to his best form.

It's a gamble sticking with Healy because he may never get back to that- they have access to educated guesses as opposed to our uneducated guesses on the medical prognosis, but they still can't be certain. Anyway if that gamble does pay off it will pay off very handsomely indeed.

Personally I'm still a fan of Kilcoyne who seems to be the forgotten man in all of this and was sufficiently impressed by him since he broke through to feel he's worth persevering with.

Schmidt will have his preference for the players he knows, and he knows those at Leinster best. That is why the likes of Healy is still being retained, to try and bring his old form back into the fray. That is why McFadden is picked ahead of the likes of Gilroy, because Schmidt knows what he brings to the table. It really is that straightforward, I would argue. Schmidt quite clearly likes to stick with what he knows. This is good in some aspects and bad in others. If he ignores clear standouts at the expense of the old guard it could be the difference between a loss and a win.

Buckley is the new kid on the block (from an Irish perspective - he has been on form at Connacht for a few seasons now) but he has easily been the form loosehead in Ireland, along with McGrath, by quite some margin. Scrum, loose play, breakdown work - He really is the full package. Experience is obviously where he misses out but as I said before, had he been from Leinster, he would have featured in this squad. We all know it yet some are (still) very reluctant to criticise Schmidt's selection policy.

Kilcoyne hasn't been forgotten - his ball carrying is up there with Healy in his prime, but he isn't nearly as good a scrummager. He seems to be improving in this regard, though. He was also competing with James Cronin, another player I rate highly. Interestingly, he seems to have fallen out of favour with Schmidt, while Healy, who is in absolutely dreadful form, remains. See above for reasons why.

Engine#4 wrote:

Nematode wrote:Just had a look at the 44 man squad - just wondering (I'm Scottish) why there are so few Connacht players (about 4) in the squad? They are playing well and most are IQ?

They are playing well but so are plenty of players from other provinces who are proven internationals. Critics of the Irish management are keen to infer bias by pointing out that Connacht are 2nd in the league and yet only have 6 of 44 players in the latest squad but the question should really be 'who' would you have in the squad ahead of those that have been picked.  Buckley and O'Halloran may have been a little unlucky but they would be in the squad ahead of Kearney/Zebo or Healy/McGrath

Aside from the 6 in the squad, Buckley and TOH, I would honestly say there is no one else you could make a massive case for. Buckley would absolutely be competing with McGrath for a starting berth, he has been amazing this season, the only thing he doesn't bring to be honest is big carrying.

Down the line there should be more lads looking at coming into the squad if they keep up the form (Masterson, McKeon, Cooney, Sean O Brien, Niyi) and I would say Tom McCartney as well when he is eligible.

To hell with all the bias guff.... the IRFU should just tell Lam he has now been officially press-ganged into the Irish side to tour down South as 'Kick'em in the Balls' specialist assistant.

Dear Mr Schmidt, can we now see Paddy Jackson get a game for Ireland? Not sure what more he has to do to prove that he is better than Madigan and pushing Sexton for the best 10 in Ireland...

eirebilly wrote:Dear Mr Schmidt, can we now see Paddy Jackson get a game for Ireland? Not sure what more he has to do to prove that he is better than Madigan and pushing Sexton for the best 10 in Ireland...

Yeah, seriously. There is genuinely no justifiable reason for this particular selection. None whatsoever.

EDIT: I'm referring to Madigan being ahead of Jackson, of course. Although he is certainly pushing Sexton.

Marshall and McCloskey are also the best centre pairing that Ireland have to offer right now and work excellently together so they should be given a chance together for Ireland. 15 is between Payne and Henshaw (Payne was outstanding yesterday).

Will Schmidt mix it up with an untried team for Capetown?

The Great Aukster wrote:Will Schmidt mix it up with an untried team for Capetown?

Nope, he will pick the same players that he knows regardless if they are in form or playing in their best positions and Ireland will lose

Zebo is earmarked by Schmidt for fullback judging from the comments made by Andrew Conway during the week. Conway has been shifted back to the wing from fullback.

It's going to be hard to win whatever happens- we might as well go out and try and attack, continue the work from the Six Nations in playing a more ambitious style. I quite like the pace Zebo bring at fullback, and then it's between Henshaw, McCLoskey and Payne for centre. I think thats a close call, they should all get starts across the tour. Dropping Payne back to fullback and accommodating Henshaw and McClosley both is also a good option. For me it's either Zebo at 15 or Payne; Rob Kearney's only impression at Ravenhill was a few cheap shots. I think Kearney has been good for Ireland lately, not exceptional.

Jackson must join Henshaw on the bench and get some good game time, maybe a start. Even if you think Sexton is still ahead of Jackson playing Sexton in all three tests for 80 minutes isn't a great idea from a player management perspective. I'm sure the South Africans will target him as most teams do. He has to be managed and Madigan I don't think has done enough to hold onto his place.

I think at this point Jackson is good enough to put pressure on Sexton, and that competition will hopefully bring the best out of Sexton if he feels he's there's a real chance he might be dropped. I still feel Sexton is the best option but Jackson is approaching the point where he's going to have developed as much as he can at provincial level and he needs to gain experience at test level to keep developing. Obviously he has very little experience in these high pressure test matches- obviously he never will unless he's given the opportunity to play in them in the first place. To do that, being on the bench and being used off the bench is going to be crucial.

I also feel that Jackson is very close to Sexton, he has been the better 10 at provincial level but I would still have Sexton starting due to his experience.

The reasons for not selecting Jackson are running out.

His kicking is not up to standard, well it is now.

He was totally reliant on Pienaar, may have been the case earlier but he is clearly the one calling the shots for Ulster.

His defence was not strong enough, think that is a bit of a myth as I feel he is quite a good defender.

Versatility, he is not versatile enough to play the Schmidt game. To me this is bollix as there are enough versatile players in Henshaw, Payne, Zebo and Earls to afford Jackson a spot on the bench at least.

If Madigan is selected over him for the SA tour then I think Jackson's only chance to get another selection Internationally is when Schmidt leaves.

It's not so much about being versatile enough to play the game, more being versatile enough to cover centre off the bench. I would probably have Henshaw on the bench covering outside backs so that's less of an issue. Also, Madigan is off to France so I think that will impact selection policy very soon.

I still feel that Jackson has some way to develop in his tactical kicking game, but the way Ulster play we mostly kick from 9, we also kick from 13 and we run a very high percentage of the ball we get, even from deep in our own territory. It suits Jacksons game to a tee but we don't get to see him playing territory very often. Thats my only doubt- sometimes in test rugby against an organised defence you just need to pin teams back in their half and pressurise them and we don't get to see him doing that for Ulster because... we just don't do it. We jouer. I still feel Sexton is the more rounded 10 in that he can execute a very conservative kicking game just as well as he can play a very attacking and open running game, but Jackson is a better ball player. His passing, playmaking, organisation is all absolutely top class. He's got so many lovely nuances to his game in the way he takes the ball to the line, fixes players, takes the right option... I feel like he's only going to improve if he gets the chance to play test rugby. He's in his comfort zone at Ulster and he's not going to be pushed to get better there. He needs bigger challenges.

Fair point about Jackson's tactical kicking there Notch but I am sure he can add that to his game easily. I am not that impressed with Madigan's tactical kicking if I may be honest so I still cant see any reason that he should be selected over Jackson.

eirebilly wrote:Fair point about Jackson's tactical kicking there Notch but I am sure he can add that to his game easily. I am not that impressed with Madigan's tactical kicking if I may be honest so I still cant see any reason that he should be selected over Jackson.

Madigan's is awful. So many times he comes off the bench and a poor kick gives all our momentum away.

That for me is the most important difference between the Pro12 and test rugby. In test rugby, you're forced to kick more and poor kicks are punished much, much more. In the Pro12 you can run nearly every phase and win. Which is more entertaining, but much harder to pull off when you're up against test-class defences and test-class back rows.

What I will say is I think Jacksons restarts and line kicking from penalties are good, don't see him as a bad kicker at all. But while he's a good kicker, Sexton is a very good kicker indeed.

Sexton is the better kicker but I am not so sure he is the better 10 right now, I would still have him ahead of Jackson.

I just feel that given the exposure, Jackson could certainly learn to have a good tactical kicking game, maybe get some help of ROG in that regard?

I am just simply struggling to see how Schmidt keeps preferring Madigan over him. The reasons that have been provided in the past simply no longer stand up.

Notch wrote:I still feel that Jackson has some way to develop in his tactical kicking game, but the way Ulster play we mostly kick from 9, we also kick from 13 and we run a very high percentage of the ball we get, even from deep in our own territory. It suits Jacksons game to a tee but we don't get to see him playing territory very often. Thats my only doubt- sometimes in test rugby against an organised defence you just need to pin teams back in their half and pressurise them and we don't get to see him doing that for Ulster because... we just don't do it. We jouer. I still feel Sexton is the more rounded 10 in that he can execute a very conservative kicking game just as well as he can play a very attacking and open running game, but Jackson is a better ball player. His passing, playmaking, organisation is all absolutely top class. He's got so many lovely nuances to his game in the way he takes the ball to the line, fixes players, takes the right option... I feel like he's only going to improve if he gets the chance to play test rugby. He's in his comfort zone at Ulster and he's not going to be pushed to get better there. He needs bigger challenges.

Notch I think his tactical kicking is up there just not being used often at the minute due to the game plan, in Europe you see it more against the French teams especially. Remember him and Pienaar picking apart Montpellier a few years ago just kicking every ball onto their back three and putting them under pressure. The ability is there, just not the opportunity to show case it

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Fair point about Jackson's tactical kicking there Notch but I am sure he can add that to his game easily. I am not that impressed with Madigan's tactical kicking if I may be honest so I still cant see any reason that he should be selected over Jackson.

Madigan's is awful. So many times he comes off the bench and a poor kick gives all our momentum away.

That for me is the most important difference between the Pro12 and test rugby. In test rugby, you're forced to kick more and poor kicks are punished much, much more. In the Pro12 you can run nearly every phase and win. Which is more entertaining, but much harder to pull off when you're up against test-class defences and test-class back rows.

All this "tactical kicking" talk from the media and fans ruined Madigan as he tried to develop his game to appease certain people. Aaron Cruden, Giteau etc aren't the best "tactical kickers" but you don't see the fans and media going crazy about it. We shouldn't be encouraging every 10 we produce to become ROG. Madigan was on fire in 2013 and was pushing Sexton's place to the point where a lot of Leinster fans had every faith in Madigan stepping up to the level Sexton was at before he left for France. There's more than one way to play the 10 position and Madigan should have been always encouraged to play to his strengths.

marty2086 wrote:

Notch wrote:I still feel that Jackson has some way to develop in his tactical kicking game, but the way Ulster play we mostly kick from 9, we also kick from 13 and we run a very high percentage of the ball we get, even from deep in our own territory. It suits Jacksons game to a tee but we don't get to see him playing territory very often. Thats my only doubt- sometimes in test rugby against an organised defence you just need to pin teams back in their half and pressurise them and we don't get to see him doing that for Ulster because... we just don't do it. We jouer. I still feel Sexton is the more rounded 10 in that he can execute a very conservative kicking game just as well as he can play a very attacking and open running game, but Jackson is a better ball player. His passing, playmaking, organisation is all absolutely top class. He's got so many lovely nuances to his game in the way he takes the ball to the line, fixes players, takes the right option... I feel like he's only going to improve if he gets the chance to play test rugby. He's in his comfort zone at Ulster and he's not going to be pushed to get better there. He needs bigger challenges.

Notch I think his tactical kicking is up there just not being used often at the minute due to the game plan, in Europe you see it more against the French teams especially. Remember him and Pienaar picking apart Montpellier a few years ago just kicking every ball onto their back three and putting them under pressure. The ability is there, just not the opportunity to show case it

Yeah I tend to agree. With Pienaar and Luke Marshall in the team, he doesn't really need to do it. Jackson plays so flat to the line, where he's best, that if we need to kick it it often goes to him, he draws the defence in and it goes out to Marshall or sometimes Payne. My concern is if he doesn't do it for Ulster he's not going to slip into it seamlessly for Ireland- people will have to be patient with him at first if he is selected.I think it will be a big adjustment if he is picked for Ireland in that the 10 tends to take on all the responsibility for kicking, and we tend to kick a lot- and with the Kearney brothers, Bowe, Trimble etc. we've based a huge amount of our game around an aggressive kick chase. That seemed to be changing in the last Six Nations though, we had a lot more width and put it through the hands much more. We rarely used the up and under.

I think Jackson should be on the bench, I thought maybe the Italy game he should have started. For me Sexton is still number one but we desperately need him to be pushed and Madigan isn't doing it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It would be naive to think Schmidt doesn't have a preference towards the Leinster players. He did win titles with them, after all. Denis Buckley would be already in the Ireland squad well before now had he played for Leinster. He would be battling with Jack McGrath for a starting spot.

I think that much is obvious. Of course Schmidt doesn't pick solely Leinster players but he has a very understandable bias towards them. The problem is when it is at the expense of players who are significantly better.

Agree with this but Schmidt has now not been with Leinster for a few years so I continue to find this unjustifiable.

I am hoping that he gives Marmion a start in one of the SA tests as I really do feel he is close to taking Murray's spot. He just needs some exposure in big matches.