Ireland Squad Discussion

by **Notch** Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continuing on from Ireland Squad Announcement Thread.

by Sin é Wed May 25, 2016 1:31 pm

My guess is that he wants as many southern hemisphere players down there as possible.

I'd say Olding is the new Felix Jones/Madigan and will spend a lot of time benching.

Not sure what the story is with Tommy O'Donnell - he went off injured about 10 minutes into the Munster v Scarlets. game (I think with concussion).

by Don Alfonso Wed May 25, 2016 1:43 pm

Not listed as injured.

by marty2086 Wed May 25, 2016 1:46 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:
rodders wrote:Really?

Reidy? Roux? And I wouldn't have been shocked to see Schmidt clinging onto Madigan like grim death.

Really feel for McCloskey. The lad’s hard done by. However, we have no less than four centres – Olding, Marshall, Henshaw and Payne in the squad. While I think that Olding is a special player, on the basis of work done this season, I’d have Big Stu rather than Wee Stu. Hopefully, that means we might see Payne or Henshaw at fullback.

Delighted for Reidy, but not sure he’s at the level of the other backrowers. Is Tommy O’Donnell injured? I thought Henry was playing himself into some real form at the end of the season as well, although I could understand that it is too little, too late.

Trimble looked decisive but slow last time he played in green. But Dave Kearney is the biggest question mark in the backline. Gilroy, Healy and Scholes have all had better seasons, albeit Scholes is off.

Surprised by Roux (might Henderson feature at blindside with four other second rows going?) and Murphy. Honestly glad to see we've moved on from Madigan.

Haven't heard Schmidts explanation for not bringing McCloskey, only thing I can figure is give the guy a rest as he has played a lot of rugby this season and a summer off to come back refreshed next season mightn't be the worst idea.

Henry while coming back into form and being a nuisance still at the breakdown, Reidy edges it for me still and I think can only be to Ulsters advantage (as long as he doesn't get injured) as I can see him coming back and even better player from being in that environment.

by Don Alfonso Wed May 25, 2016 1:48 pm

Has McCloskey played more than Marshall? Don't think he's being rested.

by Guest Wed May 25, 2016 1:49 pm

Sin é wrote:My guess is that he wants as many southern hemisphere players down there as possible.

I'd say Olding is the new Felix Jones/Madigan and will spend a lot of time benching.

Not sure what the story is with Tommy O'Donnell - he went off injured about 10 minutes into the Munster v Scarlets. game (I think with concussion).

Think that's 6 now. Schmidt likes his SH players.

by marty2086 Wed May 25, 2016 1:51 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Has McCloskey played more than Marshall? Don't think he's being rested.

Hes played 5 games more this season including his cap in the 6Ns

by Sin é Wed May 25, 2016 1:53 pm

According to Schmidt:

“Touring South Africa will be arduous to say the least so we’ve attempted to prioritise players who are currently as close to full fitness as possible,” said Schmidt of his selection.

“In what is always a difficult balancing act, we’ve taken a long-term view with a number of players who need a rest or will benefit from a full pre-season.”

I must say I'm glad Tommy, Zebo and POM are staying at home. TOD had a horrible hip injury in the warm ups for the world cup, so I'm glad he is avoiding the hard ground in SA. Similarly with Zebo and his knee.

by Guest Wed May 25, 2016 1:53 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Has McCloskey played more than Marshall? Don't think he's being rested.

Disappointed for McCloskey, but if I had to chose between McCloskey or Marshall, I would pick Marshall.

Happy to see Madigan dropped. Olding is probably going to slip into his role, which Probably means Jackson won't be picked at all for some games.

by Sin é Wed May 25, 2016 1:56 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Has McCloskey played more than Marshall? Don't think he's being rested.

Hes played 5 games more this season including his cap in the 6Ns

While I think all the lads are great brokes etc., there is just something not right about what is going on now.

by **rodders** Wed May 25, 2016 2:02 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Has McCloskey played more than Marshall? Don't think he's being rested.

Disappointed for McCloskey, but if I had to chose between McCloskey or Marshall, I would pick Marshall.

Happy to see Madigan dropped. Olding is probably going to slip into his role, which Probably means Jackson won't be picked at all for some games.

Agree on both points.

Henshaw will be 1st choice 12 and Olding and Marshall can cover more positions so that has probably cost McCloskey. I think he is still in the frame but only covering one position means one of the starting centres needs injured I think for him to come in.

Matt Healy and Tiernan O'Hallaran can feel most hard done by in my opinion, Rob Kearney must have some serious dirt on Joe to keep getting picked....

by JmD Wed May 25, 2016 2:28 pm

Munchkin wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Has McCloskey played more than Marshall? Don't think he's being rested.

Disappointed for McCloskey, but if I had to chose between McCloskey or Marshall, I would pick Marshall.

Happy to see Madigan dropped. Olding is probably going to slip into his role, which Probably means Jackson won't be picked at all for some games.

I would not be comfortable with Olding covering 10 from the bench. He's an incredible talent, but he has never played any meaningful game at 10, that would be a huge mistake.

by **profitius** Wed May 25, 2016 3:46 pm

Schmidt is a sh!te selector and Ireland play a sh!te style of rugby.

He is turning me off supporting Ireland because of that and all the foreigners he is picking. He is picking journeyman foreigners over Irish players which makes it all the more bizarre.

by marty2086 Wed May 25, 2016 3:49 pm

profitius wrote:Schmidt is a sh!te selector and Ireland play a sh!te style of rugby.

He is turning me off supporting Ireland because of that and all the foreigners he is picking. He is picking journeyman foreigners over Irish players which makes it all the more bizarre.

you're right Bealham, Dillane and Marmion should be nowhere near the squad Run

by JmD Wed May 25, 2016 4:10 pm

profitius wrote:Schmidt is a sh!te selector and Ireland play a sh!te style of rugby.

He is turning me off supporting Ireland because of that and all the foreigners he is picking. He is picking journeyman foreigners over Irish players which makes it all the more bizarre.

He has been the worst team selector in world rugby for a while now.

Presumably Quinn Roux is there so they don't have to pay for a tour guide.

by the-goon Wed May 25, 2016 4:46 pm

JmD wrote:
profitius wrote:Schmidt is a sh!te selector and Ireland play a sh!te style of rugby.

He is turning me off supporting Ireland because of that and all the foreigners he is picking. He is picking journeyman foreigners over Irish players which makes it all the more bizarre.

He has been the worst team selector in world rugby for a while now.

Presumably Quinn Roux is there so they don't have to pay for a tour guide.

The worst selector in world rugby. Are you actually serious?

by Pot Hale Wed May 25, 2016 4:52 pm

the-goon wrote:
JmD wrote:
profitius wrote:Schmidt is a sh!te selector and Ireland play a sh!te style of rugby.

He is turning me off supporting Ireland because of that and all the foreigners he is picking. He is picking journeyman foreigners over Irish players which makes it all the more bizarre.

He has been the worst team selector in world rugby for a while now.

Presumably Quinn Roux is there so they don't have to pay for a tour guide.

The worst selector in world rugby. Are you actually serious?

Who's worse?

by eirebilly Wed May 25, 2016 5:03 pm

The Kearney Brothers and Fitzgerald are glaring inclusions in my mind. None of them are in better form that McCloskey, Healy, Gilroy or even TOH for that matter. Those boys can feel hard done by. At least Paddy is in the squad ahead of Madigan although I am unsure he will be used.

Overall not unhappy with the squad selection, just feel that Schmidt is a bit too comfortable with certain players to drop them for better younger players.

by JmD Wed May 25, 2016 5:12 pm

the-goon wrote:
JmD wrote:
profitius wrote:Schmidt is a sh!te selector and Ireland play a sh!te style of rugby.

He is turning me off supporting Ireland because of that and all the foreigners he is picking. He is picking journeyman foreigners over Irish players which makes it all the more bizarre.

He has been the worst team selector in world rugby for a while now.

Presumably Quinn Roux is there so they don't have to pay for a tour guide.

The worst selector in world rugby. Are you actually serious?

In an international role it's not even close, unless Marc Lievremont decides to make a comeback. I can't think of anyone in any sort of high profile side who makes more glaringly bizarre selections.

by eirebilly Wed May 25, 2016 5:21 pm

JmD wrote:

In an international role it's not even close, unless Marc Lievremont decides to make a comeback. I can't think of anyone in any sort of high profile side who makes more glaringly bizarre selections.

I don't think that they are glaringly bizarre as they were pretty much expected from him. I do think that he is making some big mistakes selection wise and has done since he took over. To me, I feel the side is going slightly backwards under Schmidt.

by Guest Wed May 25, 2016 5:30 pm

rodders wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Has McCloskey played more than Marshall? Don't think he's being rested.

Disappointed for McCloskey, but if I had to chose between McCloskey or Marshall, I would pick Marshall.

Happy to see Madigan dropped. Olding is probably going to slip into his role, which Probably means Jackson won't be picked at all for some games.

Agree on both points.

Henshaw will be 1st choice 12 and Olding and Marshall can cover more positions so that has probably cost McCloskey. I think he is still in the frame but only covering one position means one of the starting centres needs injured I think for him to come in.

Matt Healy and Tiernan O'Hallaran can feel most hard done by in my opinion, Rob Kearney must have some serious dirt on Joe to keep getting picked....

Kearney is there for his good looks. It's what the fans want Cool

by Sin é Wed May 25, 2016 5:33 pm

eirebilly wrote:The Kearney Brothers and Fitzgerald are glaring inclusions in my mind. None of them are in better form that McCloskey, Healy, Gilroy or even TOH for that matter. Those boys can feel hard done by. At least Paddy is in the squad ahead of Madigan although I am unsure he will be used.

Overall not unhappy with the squad selection, just feel that Schmidt is a bit too comfortable with certain players to drop them for better younger players.

Heaslip, Fitz, Earls & Rob Kearney have the experience of touring in SA previously (with the Lions in 09) - so useful to have in the squad along with Stander, Straus & Quinn Roux. Payne would also have played there probably playing Super Rugby.

It seems TOD is getting married which would have meant he would miss the last Test to come home early. I think a few of the lads with little rugby (such as Henry) might find the going hard fitness wise at altitude.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed May 25, 2016 5:36 pm

I struggle to see what Henshaw offers at 12 over McCloskey, apart from experience at test level. He hasn't exactly set the world alight at Connacht in any position since the Six Nations, really. However - and I say this knowing full well that I am a broken record - for the role we have assigned Henshaw to do, McCloskey is a much better and much more effective option. He has also been quieter since the Six Nations but even in his quiet games he has had a much bigger impact than Henshaw. Check the stats - he always beats a handful of defenders and his offloading stats are good too.

EDIT: In fact I should really expand on that - I fail to see what Henshaw offers over McCloskey, Marshall or Olding at 12.

The back row looks quite weak due to the injuries and I am interested to see who will get the 7 shirt especially. I guess the only real options are Murphy and Reidy unless we shift Ruddock to 7 again (which worked because POM was at 6). We also still lack any real threat out wide, unfortunately.

by eirebilly Wed May 25, 2016 5:39 pm

Thing is Sin é, Heaslip has certainly come back to form with Leinster and is very much in the squad on merit, as is Earls. Fitz, Dave Kearney and Rob Kearney are not in the squad based on form, they are in there only because Schmidt knows them. If he were to select on form and current ability then McCloskey, Healy and Gilroy would be there and we could see Joe actually trying to develop a squad a little more for the future.

They are pretty much the only selections I have issues with though.

by Sin é Wed May 25, 2016 5:43 pm

I think McCloskey's time will come (probably around the same time as Paddy Jackson's time). One of the reasons (and I suspect the main one) Henshaw is moving to Leinster is to build up a partnership with Sexton which will help him cement his place as a starter at 12 for Ireland.

McCloskey isn't versatile enough to bring along as a backup player. While Sexton is starting for Ireland I think it will be Henshaw at 12 when fit.

by Sin é Wed May 25, 2016 5:45 pm

eirebilly wrote:Thing is Sin é, Heaslip has certainly come back to form with Leinster and is very much in the squad on merit, as is Earls. Fitz, Dave Kearney and Rob Kearney are not in the squad based on form, they are in there only because Schmidt knows them. If he were to select on form and current ability then McCloskey, Healy and Gilroy would be there and we could see Joe actually trying to develop a squad a little more for the future.

They are pretty much the only selections I have issues with though.

This is going to be a tough tour. Rob Kearney is there for his experience. Dave Kearney is used to playing with the rest of the backs at this stage.

by eirebilly Wed May 25, 2016 5:46 pm

I agree with Rory, McCloskey offers far more from 12 than Henshaw does. His time may come but I think only under a new coach.

by **Notch** Wed May 25, 2016 6:08 pm

JmD wrote:
the-goon wrote:
JmD wrote:
profitius wrote:Schmidt is a sh!te selector and Ireland play a sh!te style of rugby.

He is turning me off supporting Ireland because of that and all the foreigners he is picking. He is picking journeyman foreigners over Irish players which makes it all the more bizarre.

He has been the worst team selector in world rugby for a while now.

Presumably Quinn Roux is there so they don't have to pay for a tour guide.

The worst selector in world rugby. Are you actually serious?

In an international role it's not even close, unless Marc Lievremont decides to make a comeback. I can't think of anyone in any sort of high profile side who makes more glaringly bizarre selections.

Hmmm. it seems they've gone with Henshaw and Payne as the first choice centres, Marshall because he can cover 12 and 13 and Olding because he can cover 10, 12 and 15. That's logic which there are good reasons to disagree with, there are well reasoned arguments I've seen made, but it's not really bizarre- if he was to pick someone like Rory Scannell or Sam Arnold over McCloskey then I could see why it would be bizarre!

I can't help but feel if we all named our ideal XV most people would have 10+ players in common with the actual team. Probably I would have 12 or 13 players the same. Seems like a lot of controversy over one player.

I feel Henshaw should be replaced at some point, but he played very well in the last few games of the Six Nations so... meh? Italy were gash defensively, its true, but I was at that game and he showed a range of passing and some nice footwork that makes me think he'll be harder to shift than most expect. I don't think he has the raw power of McCloskey but he does seem more finessed.

by Sin é Wed May 25, 2016 6:42 pm

As an aside, I didn't realise that the Matt Healy who kept Conor Murray out of the U20s at scrumhalf, is the same as the winger Matt Healy.

Alan Clarke take a bow!

by Engine#4 Thu May 26, 2016 12:22 am

Kilcoyne, Roux, Reidy and D. Kearney have me scratching Headscratch

I wonder who is the No.2 fullback with Zebo out injured - Olding, Payne or Henshaw? A summer of rest and silent rage might serve McCloskey better than running into South Africans as we get whitewashed. Hopefully this points to passing gameplan.

What's with the Luke Fitz hate? He's been one of the few bright sparks for Leinster this year (when fit). Last weekend he added Andrew Trimble's name to the list of people he's made look pretty ordinary this year, along with half the Toulon and Argentinian backlines.

by eirebilly Thu May 26, 2016 6:00 am

Engine#4 I don't see it has Fitz hate at all, I think that like myself, people feel that the likes of Gilroy or Healy have earned a selection above him. The same regarding Dave Kearney. There is nothing wrong with having that opinion.

Who should be No.2 fullback? Well I think that Rob Kearney is lucky to be there but since he is, he will be No.1 with Henshaw more than likely the No.2. I cannot see Schmidt putting Payne there which is a shame as he has been brilliant there for Ulster.

by **rodders** Thu May 26, 2016 10:03 am

Engine#4 wrote:
What's with the Luke Fitz hate? He's been one of the few bright sparks for Leinster this year (when fit). Last weekend he added Andrew Trimble's name to the list of people he's made look pretty ordinary this year, along with half the Toulon and Argentinian backlines.

Unfortunately have to agree, he and Dave average outplayed their opposites at the RDS. Gilroy can't have much complaints after letting Nacewa waltz past him, despite being the best finisher along with Matt Healy.

I expect Schmidt will go with the tried and tested backline -

15 Kearney
14 Trimble
13 Payne
12 Henshaw
11 Fitz
10 Sexton
9 Murray

Bench Reddan, Jackson, Kearney

I also think on reflection he's left out certain guys like McCloskey to get in rest and preseason as he won't feature in any of the games as he doesn't see him as a bench option. I think he'll feature in the Autumn.

by Sin é Thu May 26, 2016 10:14 am

rodders wrote:
Engine#4 wrote:
What's with the Luke Fitz hate? He's been one of the few bright sparks for Leinster this year (when fit). Last weekend he added Andrew Trimble's name to the list of people he's made look pretty ordinary this year, along with half the Toulon and Argentinian backlines.

Unfortunately have to agree, he and Dave average outplayed their opposites at the RDS. Gilroy can't have much complaints after letting Nacewa waltz past him, despite being the best finisher along with Matt Healy.

I expect Schmidt will go with the tried and tested backline -

15 Kearney
14 Trimble
13 Payne
12 Henshaw
11 Fitz
10 Sexton
9 Murray

Bench Reddan, Jackson, Kearney

I also think on reflection he's left out certain guys like McCloskey to get in rest and preseason as he won't feature in any of the games as he doesn't see him as a bench option. I think he'll feature in the Autumn.

Earls will be a starter.

by **rodders** Thu May 26, 2016 10:19 am

Sin é wrote:
Earls will be a starter.

For Young Munster maybe. He's only there so Conor Murray doesn't need to room with Sexton.

by marty2086 Thu May 26, 2016 10:37 am

rodders wrote:Gilroy can't have much complaints after letting Nacewa waltz past him, despite being the best finisher along with Matt Healy.

After seeing that my second thought, after a bit of swearing furious

, was that was his Ireland hopes gone

Guys like Willie Le Roux and JP Pieterson would have a field day if he was coming up against them

by Sin é Thu May 26, 2016 10:54 am

rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Earls will be a starter.

For Young Munster maybe. He's only there so Conor Murray doesn't need to room with Sexton.

Earls used room with POC. Who did Murray room with then?

by **rodders** Thu May 26, 2016 11:08 am

Sin é wrote:
rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Earls will be a starter.

For Young Munster maybe. He's only there so Conor Murray doesn't need to room with Sexton.

Earls used room with POC. Who did Murray room with then?

He used to sleep in a drawer under Sextons bed....but he's getting a bit old for that.

by SecretFly Thu May 26, 2016 11:36 am

Ah God, rodders.

I assume he slept there so that he could take instruction from Sexton all night long? It's known that Sexton never sleeps but instead either preaches to his room-mate all night or looks into a mirror in his lifelong attempt to perfect a smile.

by SecretFly Thu May 26, 2016 11:39 am

... Sexton and Kearney rooming together must be a bit of craic.

One who can't smile, the other who doesn't want to.

by Don Alfonso Thu May 26, 2016 11:46 am

I know it'd the most recent Irish derby, but players should not be going to South Africa, or being kept at home, based on the Leinster-Ulster game. I think some people are exaggerating its significance hugely.

Well done to jordi Murphy for having a very good game, for example, but he's played like a wet sponge for most of the season.

by SecretFly Thu May 26, 2016 11:57 am

...thus coming into form rather than possibly going off the boil at the wrong moment?

Would that be some of the thinking regarding which players are now being picked?

by Don Alfonso Thu May 26, 2016 12:12 pm

Oh. Is a one-off game "coming into form"?

by Don Alfonso Thu May 26, 2016 12:15 pm

By that logic, any of the players who don't play well in the final will be in a "slump of form", presumably? And should be dumped?

by Sin é Thu May 26, 2016 12:22 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:I know it'd the most recent Irish derby, but players should not be going to South Africa, or being kept at home, based on the Leinster-Ulster game. I think some people are exaggerating its significance hugely.

Well done to jordi Murphy for having a very good game, for example, but he's played like a wet sponge for most of the season.

That was more than a derby though, it was a crunch game. As you probably know, I'm not a huge fan of Schmidt, but I think the reason he trusts the Leinster players is because they do have this big game mentality. I think he would also have discarded Zebo a long time ago, except for that. When talking about why he used Felix Jones on the bench, he talked about how he was always calm and ready to go at the drop of a hat. The Connacht players (Healy, Niya, Buckley) are unproven in this respect yet.

by SecretFly Thu May 26, 2016 12:25 pm

(for Don)

???

Both comments don't use logic.

So the logic is to take a guy's form that has been great all season, that has blown himself flat from the effort of it all and drop him onto a plane when he probably needs a beach and a hammock?

Leinster players, who either haven't played much all season or who have played pretty much beneath themselves when playing, appear - appear - no guarantees - to be coming into some form - as a unit... at the business end of the year.

by Don Alfonso Thu May 26, 2016 12:36 pm

My point is that a one-off game is not "form". That's all.

by Don Alfonso Thu May 26, 2016 12:43 pm

Sin é wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:I know it'd the most recent Irish derby, but players should not be going to South Africa, or being kept at home, based on the Leinster-Ulster game. I think some people are exaggerating its significance hugely.

Well done to jordi Murphy for having a very good game, for example, but he's played like a wet sponge for most of the season.

That was more than a derby though, it was a crunch game. As you probably know, I'm not a huge fan of Schmidt, but I think the reason he trusts the Leinster players is because they do have this big game mentality. I think he would also have discarded Zebo a long time ago, except for that. When talking about why he used Felix Jones on the bench, he talked about how he was always calm and ready to go at the drop of a hat. The Connacht players (Healy, Niya, Buckley) are unproven in this respect yet.

Does it transfer to the international game? We freaked out against NZ in Dublin,completely lacking any "big game mentality" and lost, and we freaked out against Argentina and went out of the RWC. We lacked composure against France in the Six Nations this year and lost. We've spent a not inconsiderable period putting "big game mentality" first and have bottled any number of important games.

by SecretFly Thu May 26, 2016 12:47 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:My point is that a one-off game is not "form". That's all.

Yeah, but you could say that all season. You could keep plotting ability and form on each game at a time for every player. Can any coach have the luxury to do that?

There are certainly surprises in who was selected and who wasn't. Everyone is wondering why some guys were left and others get to go, but all I put out there was that maybe some of the reasons are what the coaching crew feel are players emerging into some form - Provincial coaches will have been talked with too I'm sure to get an idea of what players they feel are on the up or those who might need a break.

Let's remember two things........ there is still a game left - it's going to be physical, so no guarantees at all which players go to South Africa yet.
Secondly, there are games against New Zealand, of all sides, later in the year. Players who miss out in Summer might get a chance then - they'll have had more rest.

by Don Alfonso Thu May 26, 2016 1:00 pm

Yeah - it's not that much of a drama. I'm not #OUTRAGED.

And nothing's ever straightforward - I think Kiss rates Olding above McCloskey overall, although he has been starting McCloskey for practical reasons, bearing in mind Big Stu was established from the start of the season and and Olding was injured when Kiss came on board.

by JmD Fri May 27, 2016 1:45 pm

marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:Gilroy can't have much complaints after letting Nacewa waltz past him, despite being the best finisher along with Matt Healy.

After seeing that my second thought, after a bit of swearing , was that was his Ireland hopes gone

Guys like Willie Le Roux and JP Pieterson would have a field day if he was coming up against them

At the same time, it's not as if Dave did any better when he got run over by Gilroy for Ulster's first try.

by **rodders** Fri May 27, 2016 1:52 pm

JmD wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
rodders wrote:Gilroy can't have much complaints after letting Nacewa waltz past him, despite being the best finisher along with Matt Healy.

After seeing that my second thought, after a bit of swearing , was that was his Ireland hopes gone

Guys like Willie Le Roux and JP Pieterson would have a field day if he was coming up against them

At the same time, it's not as if Dave did any better when he got run over by Gilroy for Ulster's first try.

Yeah but his basics at getting run over were better than Gilroy's.

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