Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

Kruis and Joseph were both poor in the first half. Kruis's tactics when calling the lineouts were shockingly bad. Hartley got away with two squint throws at the start, but was then pinged for a crooked one and saw one pinched. All four Kruis called to himself. After that the calls got more and more complicated, involving a lit of movement and switching of positions - yet every time he kept calling to himself, thus easy to defend and predict.

I am torn on Joseph. Until he made the interception he had been really poor, but that was fantastic play - as was his finish for the 3rd try. so strangely I woul dnot say he was the best player - but with 3 key moments he was MotM i guess.

Youngs did ok, for me 6/10 - average - though having checked about a Dozen reviews now he got one 6, two 8s (crazy) and the rest 7s. One journo even stated he was clearly Englands best player in the first half. Cannot agree - but a sign that we all see things differently.

beshocked wrote:Discipline is an issue which hasn't gone away.

Whatever you think of Brown, he's part of a group of players who need to sort out their discipline

A rugby player who has a discipline problem is one who gets regularly penalized, and draws cards. That doesn't describe Mike Brown.

Rugby fan okay well I don't want to see him kicking opposition players in the face in subsequent games.

Just because he didn't get punished for it, doesn't change that it happened.

Hmm, beshocked suddenly criticising Brown and wondering whether his discipline issues should see him dropped

Who is next in line (in Eddie Jones' mind anyway) at full back? What club does he play for?

Surely Marler messed up somehow?

Scottrf wrote:OK, so no real examples of it being a persistent problem.

or of Brown giving away a needless penalty, it was Care who has a far worse record on and off the field who got penalised and carded in that passage.

Of course Wales got away with a series of equally cynical penalties right on their own try line without drawing a card or even a last warning in the France game during a sustained period of try line pressure. Cynics might suggest that Poite was desperate to find an excuse to bin England players in the second half after reviewing a legal passage of play he pulled one out for a fairly standard bit of ruck flopping.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Surely Marler messed up somehow?

Thats next week, unless we choose Haskell for public figure of hate for the week first. We are still on Youngs this week (and Robshaw before that, and Hartley before that, and..

Just being naughty and suggesting another Saracen is battling for that spot.

Has Brown ever got a yellow card? If someone riles him up the wrong way you could see him get in a fight which would get him sent off but to be fair he's pretty seasoned and no one has managed it yet.

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Surely Marler messed up somehow?

Thats next week, unless we choose Haskell for public figure of hate for the week first. We are still on Youngs this week (and Robshaw before that, and Hartley before that, and..

To be fair he was right about Vunipola and Itoje

In regards to what?

Gooseberry wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Surely Marler messed up somehow?

Thats next week, unless we choose Haskell for public figure of hate for the week first. We are still on Youngs this week (and Robshaw before that, and Hartley before that, and..

To be fair he was right about Vunipola and Itoje

I don't think Vunipola's performance is that much of a surprise. Maybe that he is doing quite so well is, but it's inline with ambitious expectations.

Itoje Yes. Very early days and apparently very well handled by EJ but he is looking every bit as good as the hype so far.

(BTW I was very impressed by the way EJ came down to the touchline for a word with Daly before he came on as a replacement.)

Ah, thought we were on Mako.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah, thought we were on Mako.

Ahhhh...

Who?

In typical forum behavior I'll repeat what I have said before because that way its bound to make a difference. I think he has been great when he comes on (as Marler was when he was sub vs Italy). I don't think that one is necessarily rated higher than the other but that they offer different skills and both have a role to play over the course of a game. Its up to EJ to work out which he wants to play first.

Did Mako get an idiotic yello card within minutes of making his england debut? Thats the problem with this sid efull of indiscplined players

No just had him in mind and forgot about Billy! Pretty happy with the direction we're going in. Think Lancaster would be moving a touch faster but there are definite improvements in aspects of our game already (suddenly not worried about kick offs) and backs will take slightly longer to gel. He's doing well.

BamBam wrote:Hmm, beshocked suddenly criticising Brown and wondering whether his discipline issues should see him dropped

Who is next in line (in Eddie Jones' mind anyway) at full back? What club does he play for?

Bambam I haven't criticised Brown much. He's been consistently a better FB than Goode at international level.

You scream bias when I happen to not approve of Brown kicking an opposition player in the face.... It's just not something I want to see.

Nothing to do with Goode.

Brown has got away with it, doesn't make what he did right.

Just as I don't approve of Farrell's petulance or Ashton's stupid behavour.

Farrell's neck roll was another example of his foolishness.

beshocked wrote:

BamBam wrote:Hmm, beshocked suddenly criticising Brown and wondering whether his discipline issues should see him dropped

Who is next in line (in Eddie Jones' mind anyway) at full back? What club does he play for?

Bambam I haven't criticised Brown much. He's been consistently a better FB than Goode at international level.

You scream bias when I happen to not approve of Brown kicking an opposition player in the face.... It's just not something I want to see.

Nothing to do with Goode.

Brown has got away with it, doesn't make what he did right.

Just as I don't approve of Farrell's petulance or Ashton's stupid behavour.

Farrell's neck roll was another example of his foolishness.

On the subject of Goode vs Brown...

If Tuilagi does play at IC in the long term, does that necessitate Goode coming in for Brown to give an extra play-maker? While I'll readily admit to having concerns about Goode's qualities at international level, he provides a far greater ability to control a game than Brown. The plan is clearly for Manu to become a neo-Nonu. However, he isn't there yet, and realistically won't be for a while. Can England get by with only Ford as a playmaker?

Rugby fan.

I think the hatred of brown stems from the "infamous" interview when he was interviewed immediately after exiting the WC. I doubt anyone would be jumping for joy...but because he's Mike Brown he's a "tw@t" etc.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Rugby fan.

I think the hatred of brown stems from the "infamous" interview when he was interviewed immediately after exiting the WC. I doubt anyone would be jumping for joy...but because he's Mike Brown he's a "tw@t" etc.

No, it dates back long before that. He's always had a reputation for being feisty and will give anyone an earful if they've taken a cheap shot at a team-mate but I can't remember the last time he overstepped the mark, despite fairly often being targeted. I think he may have picked up a couple of yellows in his first club seasons, but his disciplinary record for England is good.

I guess it's unusual to see a back who will face up to a lock and give him some verbals, and that makes opposing fans see things that aren't there.

But let's put it in context. He's never run the length of the pitch to join a fight, like JPR Williams used to. And no-one talks about him as a dirty player.

beshocked wrote:
Brown has got away with it, doesn't make what he did right.

No, what makes it right is that the referee, the TMO, Nige (who would surely have spoken up if he felt they'd missed something) and the citing commissioner have all looked at the footage of what he did and concluded that it didn't warrant even a citing hearing.

This isn't one of those cases that has had to be dropped for lack of evidence. We all saw very clearly what he actually did. The only room for difference is in interpretation. And it's a pretty reasonable conclusion that if 4 neutral authorities on the laws of the game, with no particular reason to favour Brown or England (indeed, Poite immediately thereafter awarded a baffling yellow to Care) have concluded that what he did wasn't illegal, intentional or even reckless, then it wasn't wrong.

But then, I suppose the ref and citing commissioner in the BOD incident concluded that there was no case to answer as well. So they do get things wrong from time to time.

In this case, though, I think they're right. He rucked a ball - which he was entitled to do. He got pushed back and it looks to me as if he was actually trying quite hard not to make contact with Murray's head. Contact was made and the authorities were satisfied it was accidental. Contact would not have been made if Murray hadn't been hanging onto the ball illegally.

It seems to me that people are filtering this through their perception of Brown as a player. Are you really telling me you wouldn't feel differently if George or Itoje had done the same?

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

beshocked wrote:

BamBam wrote:Hmm, beshocked suddenly criticising Brown and wondering whether his discipline issues should see him dropped

Who is next in line (in Eddie Jones' mind anyway) at full back? What club does he play for?

Bambam I haven't criticised Brown much. He's been consistently a better FB than Goode at international level.

You scream bias when I happen to not approve of Brown kicking an opposition player in the face.... It's just not something I want to see.

Nothing to do with Goode.

Brown has got away with it, doesn't make what he did right.

Just as I don't approve of Farrell's petulance or Ashton's stupid behavour.

Farrell's neck roll was another example of his foolishness.

On the subject of Goode vs Brown...

If Tuilagi does play at IC in the long term, does that necessitate Goode coming in for Brown to give an extra play-maker? While I'll readily admit to having concerns about Goode's qualities at international level, he provides a far greater ability to control a game than Brown. The plan is clearly for Manu to become a neo-Nonu. However, he isn't there yet, and realistically won't be for a while. Can England get by with only Ford as a playmaker?

I reckon its more likely that Ford is dropped in favour of Farrell in the above case. Farrell is in mainly because Ford isn't seen as a test match goal kicker either legnth nor accuracy. Farrell did a couple of golden passes on Saturday but sure Ford has a superior running game. Both aspects can improve with time mind.
In the end in a 50/50 match you need a kicker to keep you in the match... if not you can find yourself >7 down even though you've done as well as the opposition and now have to chase the game.

He was reckless with the boot, in being so he caused an injury to the eye of a player.

Its staggering that he hasn't even been cited but i guess the ref told him he was legally able to challenge which explains his presence in the ruck kicking at a player lying on the floor holding the ball.

Either that or they didn't want to have to deal with a Brown tantrum.

It should never be a case of Brown v Goode. Goode is nowhere near good enough to play for England, Wales perhaps, but not England.

I've been disappointed with Brown this 6N so far, he seems to lost a bit of spark. The sooner Watson gets game time at FB the better and we can see a back 3 of Watson, May & Nowell.

Gwlad wrote:He was reckless with the boot, in being so he caused an injury to the eye of a player.

Its staggering that he hasn't even been cited but i guess the ref told him he was legally able to challenge which explains his presence in the ruck kicking at a player lying on the floor holding the ball.

Either that or they didn't want to have to deal with a Brown tantrum.

I think its also down to the ref not controlling that ruck. He should have told brown to stop doing it given it was clear as day that someone's head was next to the ball. Refs have given it the all clear though so must be ok. Then again I've seen numerous occasions when blatant illegal play has gone unpunished.  Wouldn't have been surprised had he been cited but refs obviously saw nothing in it.

Poorfour Itoje has kicked someone in the face albeit accidentally and it wasn't good. Not something I condone. Yes by the letter of the law if the ref lets it go then life does on but it's not something I approve of.

All I've suggested in regards to Brown is I don't want him drawing attention to himself in the Wales game. I haven't called Brown a dirty player bur he is a bit feisty.

fa0019 Farrell didn't kick particularly well though. Still don't think he's at ease in the 12 shirt. He's doing a job there but he's not really shone in my opinion. The curse of the England 12 shirt.

beshocked wrote:
fa0019 Farrell didn't kick particularly well though. Still don't think he's at ease in the 12 shirt. He's doing a job there but he's not really shone in my opinion. The curse of the England 12 shirt.

I'll put my hand up and say I thought Farrell at 12 would be a potential disaster but he is playing pretty solidly there - albeit against what look like the worst 3 sides in this years Championship. Sorry Ireland fans that isn't meant to be a dig more just a comment on the fact that the overall standard so far from 3 rounds has been pretty dire a lot of the time!

One thing Faz has done better is carry the ball himself. A big issue with him at 10 in attack has been his lack of threat as a runner himself, defences could very easily drift onto our stronger runners in midfield. At 12 he seems to be doing a much better job of taking the ball up himself and sucking defenders in. Given he's a strong bloke it's something I've always felt he should be better at.

His and Fords tactical kicking has once again be poor overall though. The frequency with which our half backs send tactical kicks straight into the hands of the opposition back three is infuriating. That said I thought Ford showed up better here against Ireland.

As for the 12 shirt, Jones has made no secret that he's just waiting for Manu and Slade to get fit. Given how long it's taken to find a solution there I wont hold my breath! However I would say that in Manu and Slade he has earmarked the best candidates by a distance given that Manu has the sheer power to complement Joseph/Daly very well whereas Slade has fantastic core skills to play across the midfield.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It should never be a case of Brown v Goode. Goode is nowhere near good enough to play for England, Wales perhaps, but not England.

I've been disappointed with Brown this 6N so far, he seems to lost a bit of spark. The sooner Watson gets game time at FB the better and we can see a back 3 of Watson, May & Nowell.

Chuck another player on the scrap heap... The speed that you go through players we'll have nobody left, even with our playing numbers!

fa0019 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:He was reckless with the boot, in being so he caused an injury to the eye of a player.

Its staggering that he hasn't even been cited but i guess the ref told him he was legally able to challenge which explains his presence in the ruck kicking at a player lying on the floor holding the ball.

Either that or they didn't want to have to deal with a Brown tantrum.

I think its also down to the ref not controlling that ruck. He should have told brown to stop doing it given it was clear as day that someone's head was next to the ball. Refs have given it the all clear though so must be ok. Then again I've seen numerous occasions when blatant illegal play has gone unpunished.  Wouldn't have been surprised had he been cited but refs obviously saw nothing in it.

Its not the actions of the refs that concern me so much as the failure the citing commissioners to address a clearly reckless act causing injury to a player's head and the dangerous precedent that sets.

Anyway Brown has escaped being dealt with, this time. Unless there is an appeal and if there is a mechanism for that I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

What do we want, another John Ashworth incident before it is made clear such behavior has no place on the pitch?

Certainly not the scrap heap 71/2 but I'm really excited by Watson at FB. Given time and space he could be devastating.

Gwlad wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:He was reckless with the boot, in being so he caused an injury to the eye of a player.

Its staggering that he hasn't even been cited but i guess the ref told him he was legally able to challenge which explains his presence in the ruck kicking at a player lying on the floor holding the ball.

Either that or they didn't want to have to deal with a Brown tantrum.

I think its also down to the ref not controlling that ruck. He should have told brown to stop doing it given it was clear as day that someone's head was next to the ball. Refs have given it the all clear though so must be ok. Then again I've seen numerous occasions when blatant illegal play has gone unpunished.  Wouldn't have been surprised had he been cited but refs obviously saw nothing in it.

Its not the actions of the refs that concern me so much as the failure the citing commissioners to address a clearly reckless act causing injury to a player's head and the dangerous precedent that sets.

Anyway Brown has escaped being dealt with, this time. Unless there is an appeal and if there is a mechanism for that I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

What do we want, another John Ashworth incident before it is made clear such behavior has no place on the pitch?

There's been incidents before this that have gone unpunished, just like the poc one so no this isn't setting a precedent.

jbeadlesbigrighthand wrote:

On the subject of Goode vs Brown...

If Tuilagi does play at IC in the long term, does that necessitate Goode coming in for Brown to give an extra play-maker? While I'll readily admit to having concerns about Goode's qualities at international level, he provides a far greater ability to control a game than Brown. The plan is clearly for Manu to become a neo-Nonu. However, he isn't there yet, and realistically won't be for a while. Can England get by with only Ford as a playmaker?

No we can't get by. Never mind the kick, Brown had a poor game on Saturday with a number of errors. What I'd like to see against Wales (and this has to many changes to be credible) is:

10: Farrell
11: Nowell
12: Tuilagi
13: Daly
14: Watson
15: Goode

Daly and Goode would compensate for Tuilagi's limitations. Ford is a liability without the ball, has had a poor season and isn't trusted to kick for Farrell has to be the starting FH. JJ and Ford would be on the bench.

DaveM...was in agreement with you there untli you said Goode LOL.

and i dont think manu should have more than a cameo. lets make sure hes fully fully match fit hey?...

Well Brown is the least likely change. Tuilagi will start I think. JJ is a good player, but for me there's not enough play-making in a Tuilagi - JJ partnership. I really hope Daly comes in too.

Ewers has been called up. I can't believe he'll be involved against Wales though.

Jason Robinson waxing lyrical about Alex Goode in today's Evening Standard.

Alex Goode just isn't very good, picking him over Brown is madness.

LondonTiger wrote:Jason Robinson waxing lyrical about Alex Goode in today's Evening Standard.

He's probably the most underrated player in English rugby. And it's not like Brown is playing anything like his best either. Watson will probably be FB this time next year, but right now Goode can do a job whilst EJ works out what balance he wants in the midfield.

DaveM wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Jason Robinson waxing lyrical about Alex Goode in today's Evening Standard.

He's probably the most underrated player in English rugby. And it's not like Brown is playing anything like his best either. Watson will probably be FB this time next year, but right now Goode can do a job whilst EJ works out what balance he wants in the midfield.

jink jink splat

lostinwales wrote:

DaveM wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Jason Robinson waxing lyrical about Alex Goode in today's Evening Standard.

He's probably the most underrated player in English rugby. And it's not like Brown is playing anything like his best either. Watson will probably be FB this time next year, but right now Goode can do a job whilst EJ works out what balance he wants in the midfield.

jink jink splat

If you are talking about Brown on Saturday then it needs augmenting to 'jink jink splat penalty'.

I have to admit I'm not 100% convinced by Tuilagi at 12. For me the only highlight of the infamous RWC and the warm ups was seeing Farrell, Slade and Goode with a physical bruiser in the midfield. The options and control created by having 3 ball players in the backline was very impressive.

With the pack now providing a platform I think it would be better having the extra brain that Goode provides as it could open up a lot of doors. Throw in Tuilagi at 13 and you've got a lot of attacking choices.

Looking at the England team, it certainly appears there is a lot of depth in the country at many positions - or rather a lot of players who appear to have International level potential at many positions.  However, rather than bang on about the usual England conundrum at 12, I was thinking about depth.  
I suppose Simpson is behind Ben Youngs and Danny Care.  
Who is behind Ford and Farrell?  We may need this sooner rather than later if Ford doesn't get himself sorted soon.  
Excluding Johnny May, who are the next few wingers?  
Fullback behind Brown and Alex Goode?

The pack seems so much more settled with plenty of quality back-up and up-and-comers.

I'd add Dan Robson in at SH to Doc.

FH - Cips & Slade

Wing - Rocko, Wade & possibly Earle (Sarries)

FB - Watson

DaveM wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Jason Robinson waxing lyrical about Alex Goode in today's Evening Standard.

He's probably the most underrated player in English rugby. And it's not like Brown is playing anything like his best either. Watson will probably be FB this time next year, but right now Goode can do a job whilst EJ works out what balance he wants in the midfield.

Goode isn't up to standard, we've seen it time and time again.

I can't believe people are suggesting JJ should make way, he's arguably the first name on the team sheet in the backs.

DaveM wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

DaveM wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Jason Robinson waxing lyrical about Alex Goode in today's Evening Standard.

He's probably the most underrated player in English rugby. And it's not like Brown is playing anything like his best either. Watson will probably be FB this time next year, but right now Goode can do a job whilst EJ works out what balance he wants in the midfield.

jink jink splat

If you are talking about Brown on Saturday then it needs augmenting to 'jink jink splat penalty'.

Brown gave away penalties on Saturday because his support didn't adapt to the Irish tactics fast enough. The moment he landed from catching the ball there were two Irish chasers wrapping him up. The catching player can't do anything about that - it relies on his support to clear out, which wasn't happening. However, Brown did better than Goode did against similar tactics last year: he actually caught the ball rather than being outjumped by the chasers.

I am happy enough with Mike Brown - woudl just like him to at least pretend he will pass the ball when running back. ATM opposition know that he will only pass before he starts running, once at pace he always runs into contact and Ireland were not even bothering to mark the men outside him.

LondonTiger wrote:I am happy enough with Mike Brown - woudl just like him to at least pretend he will pass the ball when running back. ATM opposition know that he will only pass before he starts running, once at pace he always runs into contact and Ireland were not even bothering to mark the men outside him.

Yes that is the one thing with Brown. Doesn't look at whats on. Just head down running.

Nowell looks a Brown MkII - he looks for the pass / offload

But I agree I think Watson will move to FB soon. Maybe even the summer tour he will get a start there.

Yeah, once May is back fit, or another wing is putting his hand up, I reckon we'll see Watson get a shot at FB

Brown did kick recklessly at the ball (why the penalty for holding on was not given after the first kick is another matter - I presume it was because Care was already on a YC and advantage being played?)
However I thought the injury occurred when Brown was pushed back in the counter-ruck?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

DaveM wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Jason Robinson waxing lyrical about Alex Goode in today's Evening Standard.

He's probably the most underrated player in English rugby. And it's not like Brown is playing anything like his best either. Watson will probably be FB this time next year, but right now Goode can do a job whilst EJ works out what balance he wants in the midfield.

Goode isn't up to standard, we've seen it time and time again.

I can't believe people are suggesting JJ should make way, he's arguably the first name on the team sheet in the backs.

I'm finding this a little difficult to fathom too, Jon Joseph has been the find of the last couple of years. He has been excellent, he always looks dangerous, brings other's into the game and seems to be a decent defender. Why would we sacrifice one our best performing players to accommodate a player who has barely played rugby in the last 18 months, let alone being up to international speed. It seems like madness to me. Plus if we shoehorn Manu in at 12 we may be looking at extending our search even longer. Why not let Manu play in the position he's played in for years and have three very good players compete for the 13 shirt?

If we beat Wales we are going for the Slam against a poor looking French side, I am sick of being nearly men, it occurred to me the other day that we haven't won one since I was a Frak teenager! We need to get this right!

Yeah ...Joseph is a great attacking 13...but he showed v Ireland that is he generally rock solid in defence aswell.

He put a big hit on one player (cant remember who it was) that showed his merit.

Why the rush to throw him out.

Because the new boy on the conveyor belt is Daly...? And once he's played a season then there will be calls to drop him over the next one off the conveyor belt.

I would stick with Manu, Daly and Joseph as our 13's ( maybe Manu covering 12 also) for the next 5-10 years.

This constant need to check out the latest youngster just damages the side.

Joseph is the most exciting back England have produced in a decade. Not just potential, but what he has already delivered and demonstrated in an England jersey. I think it is insanity to drop him.

10. Ford
12. Tuilagi
13. Joseph

I see that as the future midfield for England. Ford has the talent to deal with Tuilagi's perceived lack of footballing ability and the talent to put Tuilagi onto the ball in the right areas. Joseph can act as a second playmaker and has the feet to cause defences nightmares. Get the right back three to compliment these guys and a general at 9 and England will start to make the rugby world sit up and listen, especially with the formidable pack that Jones is already building.

A player like Daly is tailor made for the bench. Versatile and frighteningly quick off the mark. A nightmare for defences that may be physically tired and starting to lose concentration.