Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

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Kruis and Joseph were both poor in the first half. Kruis's tactics when calling the lineouts were shockingly bad. Hartley got away with two squint throws at the start, but was then pinged for a crooked one and saw one pinched. All four Kruis called to himself. After that the calls got more and more complicated, involving a lit of movement and switching of positions - yet every time he kept calling to himself, thus easy to defend and predict.

I am torn on Joseph. Until he made the interception he had been really poor, but that was fantastic play - as was his finish for the 3rd try. so strangely I woul dnot say he was the best player - but with 3 key moments he was MotM i guess.

Youngs did ok, for me 6/10 - average - though having checked about a Dozen reviews now he got one 6, two 8s (crazy) and the rest 7s. One journo even stated he was clearly Englands best player in the first half. Cannot agree - but a sign that we all see things differently.

no 7 & 1/2 you can call Launchbury whatever you want - "class", better than Kruis etc but till he starts and plays well it's hard to come to the conclusion he's better than Kruis.

We are in the present.


Hoonercat:laugh: Training the best way to tell how a player will perform.....

Launchbury was probably world class in training before the Scotland game.... didn't do him any good sadly.

Itoje isn't known as a dirty player if he was going to infringe it would have likely been for a breakdown penalty when going for the turnover.

It's impossible to gauge whether Launchbury would be in form. Is he even fully fit?

I'd say Kruis is in better form but Launchbury is the better player. They offer different things anyway and are not in direct completion imo.

Comes back to the argument that Robinson is better than Itoje then, not something I'd agree with but form on the 1 game etc etc.

Do you really not get the training comments from what I'm assuming is from the wc as you seem very preoccupied about it? I can explain again if you, still, don't get the point?

no 7 & 1/2 What has Robinson got to do with anything? He's not an international 2nd row, he's not in contention for the England-Wales game.

Form of 1 game? 1 game when you claim Robinson outplayed Itoje, despite Newcastle's pack being ground down and squashed. Robinson was not Paul O Connell esque turning back the tide of Saracens almost singlehanded, he was overwhelmed just like the rest.

Please do try and explain the training point, will be interesting to see what you have to say.

I am preoccupied by it because there seems to be a strange belief that training is perhaps the most important factor in selecting a player.

beshocked wrote:
Hoonercat:laugh: Training the best way to tell how a player will perform.....

Launchbury was probably world class in training before the Scotland game.... didn't do him any good sadly.

Itoje isn't known as a dirty player if he was going to infringe it would have likely been for a breakdown penalty when going for the turnover.

It's impossible to gauge whether Launchbury would be in form. Is he even fully fit?

Is he fully fit? EJ will decide that after seeing him in training, which is what i was alluding to in my post I said I was was impressed with the lack of penalties conceded by Itoje as a first start, not sure why you felt the need to bring mention dirty player as clearly that wasn't what I was suggesting.

I don't think Robinson out played but some here do. The same as I don't think short term form is better than judging attributes but some do.

Hard on the training front as not sure which part of it you didn't get. The original comments centred on Webber being picked on the bench ahead of George after warm ups where both played ok but not amazing. I said that George would have to impress in training, and outdo Webber to force his way in. I did state at the time I thought George would do just that if we managed to go through the group. The timing of that comment was after the warm ups.

Robinson outplayed Itoje that day without question but we've moved from this....

I wouldn't have Robinson too far down the "lineout" pecking order tbh, he's certainly playing better than Lawes of late. If he was at a better club he'd be more seriously rated.

Sgt Pooly we haven't moved on. You keep banging on about it even though it never happened. Keep banging on Robinson on an England coach thread when Robinson is nowhere near international selection at the moment. I doubt he's even on Eddie Jones radar and rightly so.

Hoonercat I am just saying it's a plus point that he doesn't resort to stupid things like tripping up opposition players, neck rolling, punching, high tackles,pushing, gouging, headbutting etc.

Well Eddie Jones thought Launchbury was fully fit vs Scotland but quite clearly he wasn't....

no 7 & 1/2 well obviously's Lancaster's interpretation of training wasn't quite right was it?

We thought that Lancaster was going to make England fitter and stronger, sadly that didn't happen.

Webber shouldn't have been in the England squad in the first place.


Picking May ahead of Nowell, Morgan ahead of Billy - Lancaster was a numpty.

Of course both May and Morgan supposedly must have excelled in training. Sadly when it came to the world cup itself, May was mediocre, Morgan was poor.

Both Nowell and Billy have done well so far this year in the 6 nations. Good cover tackle from Nowell.

May wasn't mediocre at the RWC. Certainly no more than any other England player. The problem is you get a long way with the analysis then throw in some stuff based on bias and it leaves people annoyed

I didn't bring Robinson up, 71/2 did and you responded.

And it did happen....suck it up

How do you know he's not near selection? Oh yea, you don't.

So we ok with those thoughts on training now? Clearly training has some impact and Morgan performed very well for England in actual matches of course and May as well as training nailed the warm up game. As we've said when you get even a limited chance with so many options available you have to take it. You've called for form players May was that guy.

May had a good WC, he certainly played better than previous outings in the 6N's etc.

What exactly do you watch Beshocked?

Scottrf wrote:It's not that strange at all.

If someone has played better over the course of this whole season so far, it's a good better they will player better in the next game you pick them for, regardless of who has the better 'attributes' or 'class'.

*bet?

On the subject of locks, I think Lawes has been disappointing this season for England and Launchbury has not shown much dominance.

Kruis certainly seems the in form player and Itoje looked composed.

Attwood is injured and Slater is only coming back from injury, and Kitchener has never been tried.

Having said that if Launchbury is fit , I might expect to see him and Kruis as starters with Itoje on the bench.

Goo piece by McGeehan today comparing Gatland and Jones.

Not a peep from either of them so far in media. Can they last until the end of the week?

Blimey its like Dejavu on this site at times...

Sean Robinson is a class act

Glad to see Ed Slater is having some time with the squad. I think I would start Kruis and Itoje again.

At the moment I would start Itoje and Kruis in the locks. Both playing really well at the moment. I think they, plus Launchbury and Lawes are international quality and so you play the ones in form at the time.

Front row for me picks itself: Marler, Hartley, Cole (Mako comes on in the 2nd half)
Back row of Robshaw, Billy and Haskell is doing a job at the moment. Start with them, bring on guys like Clifford at some point in the second half.

Basically I think Eddie Jones is doing it right at the moment. Not throwing out the baby with the bath water, gradually blooding younger/potentially better players. By the summer tour we may start to see changes in the back row starters for instance, but there isn't a rush, and the team is winning and building some confidence in the structures.

I assume the usual Thursday announcement. Bit of intrigue to this one. I assume the backrow will stay the same but I'd be very tempted to start Clifford. Itoje or Launchbury and whether Tuilagi comes back in as soon as fit are the big ones?

Clifford in place of whom?

For me Haskell. Still too up and down.

Yeah I know what you mean.

I really do like Haskells defence so far this 6n though. Hes been huge and powerful. But he can be frustrating also.

I expect to see the same again...with Clifford off the bench.

I think that will be the same for France aswell...and it'll only the be the summer tour where we see a few permanent changes coming in...ie a few international careers coming to an end...etc

Quite happy to see the same team start against Wales. The pack are going well. My feeling is that the backs butchered a couple of chances particularly in the 1st stanza against Ireland. One or two of them need to develop some awareness and vision to be able to put other players away when in more space. Farrell, I think, seems to go for contact when the scoring chance is out wider.

I have to say Farrell may be the best 10 at the moment on form, but he's the one im just not sure about.

He frustrated me with some of his play v Ireland. If Slade can come back firing...then his place is genuinely in danger.

Bench - wouldn't be upset with Daly/Tuilagi with Goode out altogether. Daly covers FB (or wing with one of the wings switching to FB) and could come on early if there is an injury. Tuilagi strictly for late game 'impact'.

I would just leave Tuilagi to play club rugby. He was rushed back, then got injured again. Let the lad just get games under his belt and be ready to pull up trees in the summer.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I would just leave Tuilagi to play club rugby. He was rushed back, then got injured again. Let the lad just get games under his belt and be ready to pull up trees in the summer.

That would be better

If he's fit and Jones thinks he'll improve us include him. If there medically is that risk of him picking something up leave him be. That should be the only consideration for me not the lack of current options at 12, see as Slade and Tuilagi seem the obvious candidates. And Sir Harry Malinder of course.

Do you think Malinder will tour in the summer?

Doubt it. Would be great to see him and Vickery team up though.

Difficult call on Manu. While he could nullify Roberts, Davies could potentially find Manu to be an easy runaround and a combination of Manu and Joseph doesn't stand out as a good defence against the Welsh pairing. I think Farrell will more or less manage Roberts if he keeps his tackles low - which he probably won't - but offers little offensively in comparison.
I'm leaning towards Manu (if fit) and Joseph with Farrell at 10, I think Ford is going to get targeted by the Welsh pack at every opportunity.
Can't see Eddie dropping Ford though.

Not particularly bothered if they do target Ford.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not particularly bothered if they do target Ford.

Ford might be though

The Welsh camp say they are going to target Billy. What with? A pop gun with rubber suckers.

Billy can be exploited...he's knocked a few balls on, and gets himself isolated the odd time.

Warbs and Tipuric could try to hit us with turnovers.

But Billy is playing very well so it'll be interesting.

lostinwales and sgt pooly we'll have to agree to disagree on May. I will never rate May till he proves to me that I should rate him. Just as you think Goode isn't good enough I feel the same about May.

My opinion is not set in stone, I used to go on about Nowell's performance against France in 2014 but since 2015 6 nations onwards I've become a big fan of Nowell, I feel he's improved his game, his cover tackle vs Ireland was excellent.

I would like May to one day become a decent winger for England as it would strengthen our options.


no 7 & 1/2 surprisingly I agree. Haskell out, Clifford in would be my choice. Getting rid of one penalty machine should help our discipline.

Plus it would mean having two Quins in the backrow who are used to working together.

Morgan hasn't performed well for England for some time sadly.



As for the Manu issue, too soon to bring him back in my opinion.

Farrell Jr is not an ideal player to face Roberts but he's unfortunately the best we've got currently.

Though again it honestly wouldn't surprise me if Wales expose Farrell's weaknesses in the centre.

And that's where Robshaw and Haskell need to have big games. It's not like this is the first time we've faced Wales though. We know what to expect and we've generally performed well against their formidable back row bar one occasion 3 years ago.

I just thought we looked a bit slow getting to the ball against Ireland and that's Haskells primary role. Clifford, as well as being bloody fast of foot, is fast of mind.

The Irish mid-field was big. They did break through a couple of times but generally England marshaled them well. I don't think Wales' mid-field offer anything better than Ireland.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just thought we looked a bit slow getting to the ball against Ireland and that's Haskells primary role. Clifford, as well as being bloody fast of foot, is fast of mind.

no 7 & 1/2 again I agree. Crazy I know.

1.Marler
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Kruis
5.Itoje
6.Robshaw
7.Clifford
8.Billy

That pack looks fine to me.

Bar obviously Launchbury if fit. Phew, feel better now!

Robshaw has offered very little so far this 6N for me. If anybody was to drop out it should be him.

I'm struggling where you're coming from with that Sgt. What has he done poorly so far?

beshocked wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just thought we looked a bit slow getting to the ball against Ireland and that's Haskells primary role. Clifford, as well as being bloody fast of foot, is fast of mind.

no 7 & 1/2 again I agree. Crazy I know.

1.Marler
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Kruis
5.Itoje
6.Robshaw
7.Clifford
8.Billy

That pack looks fine to me.

That looks like a great medium term pack. It'd be a huge call to start both Itoje and Clifford against a much more experienced Welsh pack, though. I imagine Eddie will start Haskell after having him run at the posts all week as a kind of aversion therapy. Itoje may well have done enough to hang on to a starting shirt, though I am pretty relaxed about which way round he and Launchbury start. Kruis looks increasingy nailed on, and deservedly so.

Poorfour wrote:I imagine Eddie will start Haskell after having him run at the posts all week as a kind of aversion therapy

Hoonercat wrote:

Poorfour wrote:I imagine Eddie will start Haskell after having him run at the posts all week as a kind of aversion therapy

Poor posts

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm struggling where you're coming from with that Sgt. What has he done poorly so far?

He has done absolutley nothing if note in the 3 games so far. He tackles ok, carries ok and that's it. I fail to see how he can not be improved upon...he's Mr Mediocre m.

I'm a quins fan but have to agree Robshaw is mediocre. His place must be under the biggest threat. He just does enough but nothing sparkling. I don't think he's got an aggressive bone in his body. Just too nice.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm struggling where you're coming from with that Sgt. What has he done poorly so far?

He has done absolutley nothing if note in the 3 games so far. He tackles ok, carries ok and that's it. I fail to see how he can not be improved upon...he's Mr Mediocre m.

I think you're seeing what you want to see and judging based on very different criteria from Eddie.

Interesting to read the interviews with Tom Wood in various papers today. Eddie apparently told him that what he looked for in an international 6 was a huge work rate, and that he didn't think Wood was providing it. It's the one thing that's pretty much inarguable about Robshaw; I think Pocock gets through more in a game, but not many others at any level.

Given the roles that he seems to have been asked to do in the defensive system (covering the 10-12 channel to protect Ford and moving out of the line with Haskell so that they can cut off the pass to the outside), he's not getting the tackle counts he was getting at 7 under the previous system, but he's cropping up in support over and over again.

I know I bang on about it, but it hacks me off when people criticise players based on impressions without actually looking in detail at what they're doing during the game. Fortunately, coaches rate players on different things - and usually more objectively - than fans do.

Yea he tackles but what else does he do?

His tackling is extremley passive, he rarely knocks the guy back or looks to knock the ball from contact etc etc.

Flankers like Robshaw are ten a penny in the SH, he has no outstanding attribute.

I like the guy a lot as he's a real honest pro but we need better.

We may need better but I'm not sure 1 exists yet for England. Quite happy to put up with certainly above Haskell. Hes good at everything. You under sell him a lot.