Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

Kruis and Joseph were both poor in the first half. Kruis's tactics when calling the lineouts were shockingly bad. Hartley got away with two squint throws at the start, but was then pinged for a crooked one and saw one pinched. All four Kruis called to himself. After that the calls got more and more complicated, involving a lit of movement and switching of positions - yet every time he kept calling to himself, thus easy to defend and predict.

I am torn on Joseph. Until he made the interception he had been really poor, but that was fantastic play - as was his finish for the 3rd try. so strangely I woul dnot say he was the best player - but with 3 key moments he was MotM i guess.

Youngs did ok, for me 6/10 - average - though having checked about a Dozen reviews now he got one 6, two 8s (crazy) and the rest 7s. One journo even stated he was clearly Englands best player in the first half. Cannot agree - but a sign that we all see things differently.

yappysnap wrote:Did any one else think Launchbury looked really fat and out of shape in his last game? Yea he was unwell, and yes he doesn't need to look like Heman, but good he looked unconditioned.

I'm not sure. Some players just tend to look a bit doughy (and I've always thought Launchbury seems to be one of those). He's a big, strong guy and has a brilliant engine but he doesn't look like one of those ripped, athletic locks.

Yes but chasing the form player in every instance is a recipe for disaster. Balancing act for sure.

Bit unsure myself on Haywood and Yeandle. Both look really good club players but not sure they'd make the step up.

I'm glad he's keeping Itoje in, he deserves his place for sure based on his last performance. I do think Launchbury is absolute class but returning from an injury the bench may be the best place for him.

Good looking team and bench. I do hope no matter what Itoje gets to start the France game now. Quite confident about Saturday, we should be able to get on top with the forwards. Ford and Farrell need to have good games though and keep the points coming, if the backs click it may be a nice game to watch. There's still that nagging doubt I'll be having heart palpitations with 15 min to go.

no 7 & 1/2 I am not suggesting chasing the form player in every instance.

My opinions on selection aren't dramatically different.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35771472

I am also someone who is wary of Manu being rushed back, not it's not because he's taken Goode's place. Manu is an excellent talent when fit and in form but he's had quite a few injuries. I am not sure it's good for Manu's welfare to be played.

I felt the same way about Farrell Jr when he was played in the 2014 AIs, should have been rested.

I agree on Haywood and Yeandle - not sure either could make the step up.

No 7&1/2 wrote:..........There's still that nagging doubt I'll be having heart palpitations with 15 min to go.

I think that is called realism.

Ha probably doc! Been thinking about a 5 point win all week but the team looks good.

They're not beshocked, think I'm just generally more patient with players and coaches then others.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ha probably doc! Been thinking about a 5 point win all week but the team looks good.

I will take that any day. I agree the team looks good. Let's hope...........

Sod hope. It's getting to that point where this group has been there (and not done it!) and should know exactly what is needed. I'm expecting a good performance. I think.

I think it's going to be like pretty much every Eng v Wales game in the last 5 years....totally unpredictable. Both teams are capable of winning, both teams capable of losing, neither side with any significant form advantage.

I just hope it's a decent display of rugby. This tournament has been dire so far, the NH really needs to kick on or the summer and autumn tests are going to be a SH whitewash.

I swing between it being another disappointment, a really close game or England actually putting it all together and playing really well.

My head says it will be 50/50 and either team can win it.

If England can do 2 things they will win; stop Roberts on the gain line and smash the breakdown. Easier said than done.

mid_gen wrote:I think it's going to be like pretty much every Eng v Wales game in the last 5 years....totally unpredictable. Both teams are capable of winning, both teams capable of losing, neither side with any significant form advantage.

I just hope it's a decent display of rugby. This tournament has been dire so far, the NH really needs to kick on or the summer and autumn tests are going to be a SH whitewash.

I think the England wins in Cardiff and HQ the year before were convincing wins for England. The RWC was such a disappointment because we thought we would carry on improving. I think this England team are back on the horse.

We won't see marked and consistent improvements in NH vs SH competition until 6 Nations sides start developing game plans that have a balance between creating chances for themselves and preventing/stopping chances for the opposition.

In order to be consistent against the top sides and win games even when not playing well you need a measured balance between those two. At the minute that balance isn't there as most the rugby seen in the 6 Nations is indicative of sides focused largely on stopping their opponents playing with an afterthought of trying to score themselves.

no 7 & 1/2 I think it depends on circumstances.

There is generally more patience if there is a feeling that a team is making progress.

Under Lancaster I didn't feel like progress was being made - 2nd in 2012 and 2nd in 2015 suggests no improvement in terms of results. I was happy with 2nd in 2012 because it was an improvement over Martin Johnson's 2011 RWC campaign even though we lost to Wales at home. It was an inexperienced squad but in 2015 there was much more experience yet not a significant improvement.

In try count there was an improvement but not defence. The defence vs France was laughably woeful but gets glossed over because of the tries.

Plus the attack seemed toothless vs Ireland. 2 tries this year vs 0 last year is an improvement.

A pressure eases up on a coach if they deliver something. Lancaster didn't win a GS in 4 years despite coming close on 4 occasions.

Eddie Jones so far is winning and if he wins a GS then that will ease the pressure further.

A win for England will actually pile the pressure onto Gatland in my opinion.

If Jones loses then he can use the excuse of being a new coach rebuilding but Gatland has no such excuse. He'll have a full strength Welsh side to pick from.

Which is strange King given all the head coaches are from the SH.

No improvement in placings no beshocked, but I think last years team would have demolished 2012s. I agree about the pressure on the coach, but I still see that as a bit silly. Was it a couple of years ago that France ireland was the last game up. France had a chance to win it at the end threw a pass wide and it was knocked on. If caught France were in and England would have won the championship without actually doing anything different. It wouldn't have altered the quality of that side. Know you don't like dealing in hyoptheticals but there you go!

There is a core of experience now in this side. We're getting those kids through who did so well in the U20s. Itoje, Nowell, LCD, Watson, slade to come etc. It's the reason why I was confident that improvement would continue. The vast majority of this side should continue to get better. A poitn you made beshocked about bolters like Hill are true as well.

No 7 & 1/2 well they were more experienced than in 2012 so would hope so too! More players coming through - more players from the age groups. Still didn't shift much in the international rankings. I feel that with the resources Lancaster had he wasn't good enough.

It didn't happen though. If England had scored another try vs Wales they would have beaten them in the RWC. If England hadn't allowed France to score 3 tries in 2014 then would have won the GS.

little_badger wrote:I swing between it being another disappointment, a really close game or England actually putting it all together and playing really well.

My head says it will be 50/50 and either team can win it.

If England can do 2 things they will win; stop Roberts on the gain line and smash the breakdown. Easier said than done.

Stopping Roberts on the gain line in itself isn't always that difficult, but he does tend to tie in a lot of defenders.

It's an example of how close it is at the top. never thought myself that England had the players with the experience to consistently challenge NZ (as the benchmark) think we should do in the near future. That's assuming the players continue to develop as I think they can and should. Like I said you don't like 'ifs' but assuming that pass stuck in a game England weren't even playing it gives Lancaster a title. How does it alter the quality of him as a coach or the team? I would suggest it wouldn't at all.

no 7 & 1/2 sure NZ are the benchmark but England haven't beat SA in years.

England in the RWC looked well off the pace of the tri nations.

Now I don't think Eddie Jones' England side are close to catching up yet but he's at least building some blocks.

Not bringing back Launchbury for me is a good sign. Showing trust in Itoje, now whether that trust is justified or not we'll see on Saturday.

Introduction of Clifford,Itoje,Daly,Hill etc whilst not as quick as I would have wanted is at least happening.

Haskell,Farrell as a 12 - phased out would be a good thing.

Eddie Jones has been very patient with Ford, hoping he can put in a big performance with Wales.

You know I care more about GSs than 6 nations titles. It wouldn't have made England a better side I agree.

If England were 5/5 instead though or England reached the 1/4s of the RWC it would have reflected better on Lancaster. He achieved neither.

And that trust needs to be extended. Chopping and changing does nothing but set us back. I agree with Haskell and 12 etc but those players who are trusted need to be properly trusted.Lancaster felt the pressure to drop Ford in the world cup and it didn't work.

Sorry have I stumbled onto the wrong site? Mature, intelligent debate with well made points.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Which is strange King given all the head coaches are from the SH.

Yep that's my thought too.

Of course game plan isn't all of it... France have a shambolic domestic set-up for creating a cohesive International side, Ireland have lots of injuries, Italy's infrastructure and player base is still poor etc.

If NH rugby as a whole wants to improve then the 6 nations, apparently the showcase of European rugby, needs to lead the way though. As a keen follower of club rugby (both professional and higher level amateur rugby) in England and Scotland it is fantastic to see a consistent move towards more running rugby though. It feels that a lot more clubs are looking to drastically improve the quality of their pitches and then brand/advertise their club as one which runs the ball to get more spectators/players/families/etc involved.

Come the 6 Nations though it still feels that all the sides are usually playing with a game plan built on a fear screwing up not trying to play well and score tries.

On SH coaches point alone though there is also the argument that they wouldn't (or would no longer) get jobs with NZ, Aus or SA!

nlpnlp wrote:Sorry have I stumbled onto the wrong site?  Mature, intelligent debate with well made points.

Read higher up it soon changes

I'm not sure what more Robinson can do tbh, can't believe he's not involved in the squad.

Unfashionable side Sgt, unfashionable side...

lostinwales wrote:

little_badger wrote:I swing between it being another disappointment, a really close game or England actually putting it all together and playing really well.

My head says it will be 50/50 and either team can win it.

If England can do 2 things they will win; stop Roberts on the gain line and smash the breakdown. Easier said than done.

Stopping Roberts on the gain line in itself isn't always that difficult, but he does tend to tie in a lot of defenders.

Oh dear.

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

little_badger wrote:I swing between it being another disappointment, a really close game or England actually putting it all together and playing really well.

My head says it will be 50/50 and either team can win it.

If England can do 2 things they will win; stop Roberts on the gain line and smash the breakdown. Easier said than done.

Stopping Roberts on the gain line in itself isn't always that difficult, but he does tend to tie in a lot of defenders.

Oh dear.

Ah yet another incisive and useful comment. Check the stats. He tends to make a lot of carries for very few meters.

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

little_badger wrote:I swing between it being another disappointment, a really close game or England actually putting it all together and playing really well.

My head says it will be 50/50 and either team can win it.

If England can do 2 things they will win; stop Roberts on the gain line and smash the breakdown. Easier said than done.

Stopping Roberts on the gain line in itself isn't always that difficult, but he does tend to tie in a lot of defenders.

Oh dear.

Ah yet another incisive and useful comment. Check the stats. He tends to make a lot of carries for very few meters.

Oh dear oh dear.

You're missing the point as per

He sucks the midfield in, almost invariably gets positive on the gainline. It doesnt matter if he makes metres PAST the gainline, it's the fact he crosses it and sucks in the opposition that counts.

Got it?

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

little_badger wrote:I swing between it being another disappointment, a really close game or England actually putting it all together and playing really well.

My head says it will be 50/50 and either team can win it.

If England can do 2 things they will win; stop Roberts on the gain line and smash the breakdown. Easier said than done.

Stopping Roberts on the gain line in itself isn't always that difficult, but he does tend to tie in a lot of defenders.

Oh dear.

Ah yet another incisive and useful comment. Check the stats. He tends to make a lot of carries for very few meters.

To be fair, doesn't the fact that Roberts ties in a lot of defenders imply that it is really difficult to stop him on the gain line, and that opponents have to commit defenders in order to do so?

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

little_badger wrote:I swing between it being another disappointment, a really close game or England actually putting it all together and playing really well.

My head says it will be 50/50 and either team can win it.

If England can do 2 things they will win; stop Roberts on the gain line and smash the breakdown. Easier said than done.

Stopping Roberts on the gain line in itself isn't always that difficult, but he does tend to tie in a lot of defenders.

Oh dear.

Ah yet another incisive and useful comment. Check the stats. He tends to make a lot of carries for very few meters.

Oh dear oh dear.

You're missing the point as per

He sucks the midfield in, almost invariably gets positive on the gainline. It doesnt matter if he makes metres PAST the gainline, it's the fact he crosses it and sucks in the opposition that counts.

Got it?

I have seemed to have 'got it' at some point before you got involved.

You've got something that is for certain, but understanding the significance of Roberts role is not it at all.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I thought he'd left.....

Can people stop quoting him pls, I was quite enjoying not seeing his trolling these last few weeks.

He's going into overdrive, telling not just me but all of us how well Roberts runs up to the gainline doesn't make much yardage but sucks in lots of defenders, so making space for others. I had no idea. I really didn't. I just thought he tied up lots of defenders.

There are times when I can't resist the odd dig, and then there are more times when I don't do anything at all and he makes himself look stupid all on his own. And then even better in this case boasts about it on another thread.

England's most determined follower from among the  non English.

There must be something in the water at Pennyhill. It seems that if you associate with England you lose all sense of perspective based on results and success in the 6 Nations. A certain, arrogance, builds into a fever of gung ho jingoism. Every year that fever builds, and every year it breaks in a frenzy of surprised outrage after England and their fans get themselves into a fit of peak only to be disappointed.

Will they ever learn? Braggin rights, like going wide, must be earned. Those that are foolish enough to indulge pre coitus are likely to get something bitten off.

If i comment on England (and their coach who seems to have taken a leaf out of Sam Burgess's book on how to stoke up your opponents, obliged) I'm a 'follower'?

England happen to be playing Wales on Saturday therefore, despite various posters who feel it is inappropriate of me to post about England on public rugby forum that does not have a membership requirement - a pity - I will continue to do so. And they can continue to fret and whine about it.

You can't knock Eddie for his confidence, but he is setting himself up yet again just like his 606V2 advisory team.

Bring it!

I suggest you try the England v Wales thread Gwlad, or the 'let it all out' thread for your tired old 'arrogance' cliche.
Looks a bit strange on the Eddie Jones thread.

Of course you are entitled to talk about England as often as you like wherever you like, but bear in mind how this England obsession makes your views appear to other posters.

Jones did keep quiet until he had to say something then. The shocking thing is apparently teams try to cheat in the scrums, never knew that. First one will be interesting do the 2 teams both scrummage legally or try to get away with one? My guess is the Welsh take a big step to the left and hope he pings Marler.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Jones did keep quiet until he had to say something then. The shocking thing is apparently teams try to cheat in the scrums, never knew that. First one will be interesting do the 2 teams both scrummage legally or try to get away with one? My guess is the Welsh take a big step to the left and hope he pings Marler.

I really hope refs have been briefed on that one. It was so blatant from Australia in the RWC and it was missed every time. If your entire pack walks sideways in synchrony, then they're not pushing straight, are they?

It's also worth noting that Japan under Eddie and Borthwick had a reputation for just using the scrum as a restart and not trying to milk penalties.

Gwlad I don't quite understand that misguided opinion.

Most England fans think Wales are going to be tough opposition. We believe we can win, is that arrogant? We are happy to be 3/3 but of course that might all change on Saturday, we know a win is not guaranteed.

The only person with gungho jingoism is you Gwlad. I respected Wales' doggedness in their victory over England, after the match on these threads I said well done Wales. You focus too much on cheap shots on England - focussing on outdated concepts like English "arrogance".

We want to win every match like every team. I guess Wales is a slightier spicier encounter than some others because both sides have been relatively evenly matched and the close proximity of the two countries.

I will be annoyed if we lose, that's because I want England to win every match but if Wales win fair and square like they did in the RWC. I will say well done and like usual - focus on England, what England can do better etc. Yes occasionally I might chip in on what I see as flaws in other countries but England is the country whose weaknesses I analyse the most.

Some English Wums can be accused of arrogance yes but don't confuse them with the majority. Just as I know that most sensible Welsh fans will believe England won't be a pushover. Neither Wales or England should be ridiculed as both are good teams.

Focus on mutual respect instead of disrespect.

Gwlad wrote:

If i comment on England (and their coach who seems to have taken a leaf out of Sam Burgess's book on how to stoke up your opponents, obliged) I'm a 'follower'?

You can't knock Eddie for his confidence, but he is setting himself up yet again just like his 606V2 advisory team.

At least he has the courage of his convictions, rather than leaving it to his subordinates.

My memory fails me but we're using the u20s scrum coach currently aren't we? I'm assuming that with the u20s games running at the same time he's not having to split his focus?

beshocked wrote:Gwlad I don't quite understand that misguided opinion.

Most England fans think Wales are going to be tough opposition. We believe we can win, is that arrogant? We are happy to be 3/3 but of course that might all change on Saturday, we know a win is not guaranteed.

The only person with gungho jingoism is you Gwlad. I respected Wales' doggedness in their victory over England, after the match on these threads I said well done Wales. You focus too much on cheap shots on England - focussing on outdated concepts like English "arrogance".

We want to win every match like every team. I guess Wales is a slightier spicier encounter than some others because both sides have been relatively evenly matched and the close proximity of the two countries.

I will be annoyed if we lose, that's because I want England to win every match but if Wales win fair and square like they did in the RWC. I will say well done and like usual - focus on England, what England can do better etc. Yes occasionally I might chip in on what I see as flaws in other countries but England is the country whose weaknesses I analyse the most.

Some English Wums can be accused of arrogance yes but don't confuse them with the majority. Just as I know that most sensible Welsh fans will believe England won't be a pushover. Neither Wales or England should be ridiculed as both are good teams.

Focus on mutual respect instead of disrespect.

Beshocked

"Most sensible Welsh fans will believe England won't be a pushover."

And I bet you know all 3 of us Greg

no 7 & 1/2 Ian Peel has left the U20s I believe. After the 6 nations he will join Saracens as a coach on a permanent basis.

Thanks gregortree.  

Rubyguby will you show humility if Wales lose on Saturday?

We'll see if he can get the pack to think on their feet a bit quicker then. Too often left to the coach to sort at half time.

beshocked wrote:Gwlad I don't quite understand that misguided opinion.

Most England fans think Wales are going to be tough opposition. We believe we can win, is that arrogant?

Apparently it is if you lost the last game to the same team, even if only by 3 points.

beshocked wrote: no 7 & 1/2 Ian Peel has left the U20s I believe. After the 6 nations he will join Saracens as a coach on a permanent basis.

Thanks gregortree.  

Rubyguby will you show humility if Wales lose on Saturday?

I'll try my hardest with the humility thing but my mother's English