Pro12 bosses must act NOW to solve major refereeing issues that are undermining its credibility

by LordDowlais Wed 02 Mar 2016, 3:56 pm

First topic message reminder :

Right, now I know people on here do not like WOL, but this article is so accurate and spot on, I do not know how people can argue with it. Also this paragraph is right:-

On Saturday night in Galway, all four officials for the Connacht-Ospreys game were Irish, so when a crucial decision goes the way of the home team it’s hardly surprising some people will point to the nationality issue.

I have been called tin hatted and a wum for even mentioning such a thing in the past, but how can we have it that ALL the officials are from the same country as the team that is playing, then get a controversial decision like we had then not expect cries of bias ? I always thought that there was supposed to be a Welsh ref whilst IN ireland and an Irish ref when IN Wales, wh ywas this changed for this game ?

Please read, and give your views:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/pro12-bosses-must-act-now-10978612

by marty2086 Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:29 pm

LordDowlais wrote:No I am not bitching about the Irish, not at all, I have no problem with the Irish, my problem is with the Irish refs in the pro12.

I will compile a list tomorrow, but I will say, how many times have we had situations where an Irish ref has given a pen or a yellow card, only for an independent citing commissioner to judge that it the punishment was not sufficient ?

Also, the more I think about it, why would I need to do you a list?

Have you forgotten the hours,days and weeks myself and you have argued about this on here since we've been on here due to all these circumstances ?

There have been too many circumstances now, you cannot keep batting me off with the paranoia stick, it has come to the point where I can now beat you with your head in the sand stick.

I wonder if the citing commissioners were Welsh?

Im sure the Irish fans could do something similar, Connacht definitely could. I remember Ben Whitehouse in the Ulster Scarlets game last season when he ruled there was nothing wrong with Roger Wilson hitting John Barclay he was called, by either you or Chunky, a crap ref if he was Irish he'd be biased. Though wasn't the citing commissioner for that game Welsh too?

by Sin é Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:33 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Yep, that's the easy way to look at it. We'll done

There is too much circumstantial evidence for you to keep dismissing this as anything different to the Irish refs favouring the Irish provinces, it happens more than often.

Do you think Welsh refs favour Welsh Regions when playing other countries?

by marty2086 Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:37 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Yep, that's the easy way to look at it. We'll done

There is too much circumstantial evidence for you to keep dismissing this as anything different to the Irish refs favouring the Irish provinces, it happens more than often.

You mean other than the Irish losing more games than they win against teams from Wales, Scotland and Italy when theres an Irish ref?

Theres overwhelming evidence that your talking out of your paranoid and deluded rear end

by True Raven Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:41 pm

marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Yep, that's the easy way to look at it. We'll done

There is too much circumstantial evidence for you to keep dismissing this as anything different to the Irish refs favouring the Irish provinces, it happens more than often.

You mean other than the Irish losing more games than they win against teams from Wales, Scotland and Italy when theres an Irish ref?

Theres overwhelming evidence that your talking out of your paranoid and deluded rear end

Somehow I doubt it considering the win percentages of Irish teams. If you're gonna slate LD for making up things with no evidence then the least you could do is provide evidence when you yourself make a bold statement

by marty2086 Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:46 pm

True Raven wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Yep, that's the easy way to look at it. We'll done

There is too much circumstantial evidence for you to keep dismissing this as anything different to the Irish refs favouring the Irish provinces, it happens more than often.

You mean other than the Irish losing more games than they win against teams from Wales, Scotland and Italy when theres an Irish ref?

Theres overwhelming evidence that your talking out of your paranoid and deluded rear end

Somehow I doubt it considering the win percentages of Irish teams. If you're gonna slate LD for making up things with no evidence then the least you could do is provide evidence when you yourself make a bold statement

Raven I actually provided it to him earlier in the season, at the time I believe this seasons tally from what at that point was 11 games was 3 wins for the Irish, two draws 6 defeats and the average over the last 5 years was around a 40% win rate.

We've done this dance before and he is oblivious to things like facts

by **RiscaGame** Wed 02 Mar 2016, 9:58 pm

All I know is it could be a ref from Limerick or Cork on Saturday, but Munster are going down boxing

by Cardiff Dave Wed 02 Mar 2016, 10:22 pm

marty2086 wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:Firstly I think this was a shocking decision as the player was not held in the tackle IMO.

Often said but irrelevant

The tackle is complete when the ball-carrier is brought to the ground; this is judged to be the case as soon as a knee touches the ground while being held by the opposition (at the time the knee hits the ground) - Davies knee hits the ground he was tackled and at that moment the defender had hold of him

Once a player in possession of the ball has been brought to ground by a tackler, they must release the ball immediately - Davies did not release the ball

Good decision Referee

As I say though referees the world over do not apply the above rule hence this myth that not being held after the tackle is complete means you can carry on - you cant.
The myth is you need to hold on the player for a period of time - you don't, only at the moment the knee hits the ground

Spot on geoff, the fact that Jutge came out and said otherwise is strange but then again there is so much open to interpretation and his knee and the hold were so marginal and when looked at in slow mo it enhances things and makes it look worse

It is harsh though in the wider scheme and the extreme technicality it involves

Rugby's got way too picky imo and it's spoiling the game. Was a try all day long in not so old money and I bet Sam Davies didn't realise he'd been "held". Also I think the TMO should only be woken up if foul play is suspected.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 02 Mar 2016, 10:27 pm

RiscaGame wrote:All I know is it could be a ref from Limerick or Cork on Saturday, but Munster are going down

by The Great Aukster Wed 02 Mar 2016, 10:35 pm

RiscaGame wrote:All I know is it could be a ref from Limerick or Cork on Saturday, but Munster are going down

You're swimming against the tide a bit there Risca, that sort of sporting talk could almost be seen as shying away from the serious business of whinging about the ref before the game and if some of the Gwlad rags found out they might "out" you as being anti-Welsh!

by **RiscaGame** Wed 02 Mar 2016, 10:45 pm

Disowned it is then. I can't help knowing what I know Very Happy

by mikey_dragon Wed 02 Mar 2016, 10:51 pm

Regarding this definition (knees touching the ground) is this new? It's never been brought to my attention, I was always taught to hold the player and bring him to the ground. The winger seemed to push Davies so it wasn't really a tackle for me, nor a double movement as he had momentum and got back to his feet anyway, therefore a try. I thought this on my first view of the 'try' and just had a look back at it, I still believe it was a try wrongfully disallowed.

I don't for a moment believe this is evidence of Irish ref's being biased towards the Irish teams, in fact there probably isn't any evidence for that at all. Most ref's that officiate games in the Pro12 aren't good enough regardless of nationality, with most of them tending to favour home teams rather than the teams from their nation. Having neutral ref's for games won't solve the problem but it at least rules out the accusations of bias.

by geoff999rugby Wed 02 Mar 2016, 10:57 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Regarding this definition (knees touching the ground) is this new?

Nope it is there in the rules.

I quoted it earlier

by Guest Wed 02 Mar 2016, 11:06 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Regarding this definition (knees touching the ground) is this new? It's never been brought to my attention, I was always taught to hold the player and bring him to the ground. The winger seemed to push Davies so it wasn't really a tackle for me, nor a double movement as he had momentum and got back to his feet anyway, therefore a try. I thought this on my first view of the 'try' and just had a look back at it, I still believe it was a try wrongfully disallowed.

I don't for a moment believe this is evidence of Irish ref's being biased towards the Irish teams, in fact there probably isn't any evidence for that at all. Most ref's that officiate games in the Pro12 aren't good enough regardless of nationality, with most of them tending to favour home teams rather than the teams from their nation. Having neutral ref's for games won't solve the problem but it at least rules out the accusations of bias.

No, it was a tackle all right, and he had no momentum as he had to push himself up.

What Davies should have done is simply release the ball, and pick it up immediately.

It is harsh, and I can fully understand any angst Ospreys fans have, but technically the right decision was made. One that ignores the spirit of the game, unfortunately.

I don't know why the ref went to the TMO, but if it was at the request of a Connacht player, it was smart thinking by that player.

by marty2086 Wed 02 Mar 2016, 11:28 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:Rugby's got way too picky imo and it's spoiling the game. Was a try all day long in not so old money and I bet Sam Davies didn't realise he'd been "held". Also I think the TMO should only be woken up if foul play is suspected.

Its hardly picky to follow the laws of the game and ignorance is hardly a defence

by Marshes Wed 02 Mar 2016, 11:45 pm

LordDowlais wrote:Yep, that's the easy way to look at it. We'll done

There is too much circumstantial evidence for you to keep dismissing this as anything different to the Irish refs favouring the Irish provinces, it happens more than often.

Lord as a Connacht fan I have to agree with you, I didn't think it was a try. Should have been lead to Ospreys. But if you want to call it a conspiracy theory it is a double edged sort. Especially against Connacht.

Last year when Connacht were winning away to Blues in stoppage time (down to 14 men), chasing a Champions Cup spot in the Pro 12. In stoppage time Cardiff were losing and had knocked on and lost possession, so a Connacht player booted the ball in the stands. Game over?

No blydi way. WELSH ref Leighton Hodges calls the ref over with final whistle blown and says "hands in the ruck" and advises a penalty against Connacht. From a knock on. When no ruck had been formed. And no Connacht player was near it. Cardiff went on to score from the resulting phase of play and win.

You may remember the incident because Pat Lam blew his top over it. I might be wrong but I don't think you had an post on Leighton Hodges the following week.

If you are willing to admit that the corruption extends to the Welsh referees reffing Welsh games as well, I'll very much hear what you have to say.

I for one assume incompetence for both Clancy and Hodges in the examples given, rather than malice or corruption.

by Marshes Wed 02 Mar 2016, 11:55 pm

I also remind you in that one of your previous rehashes of this topic, you got into a discussion with bandwagonsociety on this. Bandwagon looked at the stats, and found that Irish teams performed worse under Irish refs.

Not only did you respond to his stats, this is not the first time I am reminding you that the stats proved you wrong on that account. I believe it was in the Pro 12 Officating Review article if you want to go back and look.

Old habits dying hard for you?

If you are an Ospreys fan I'm sorry but it was a bad decision. Trust me, we have been on the end of some stinkers as well! Stop accusing others, because if something is rotten here, you can't ignore the smell coming out of your own house.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 03 Mar 2016, 12:03 am

LordDowlais wrote:Yep, that's the easy way to look at it. We'll done

There is too much circumstantial evidence for you to keep dismissing this as anything different to the Irish refs favouring the Irish provinces, it happens more than often.

Well that's not true. If you look on the LeinsterFans forum, a lot of posters think Fitzgibbon has a vendetta against Leinster. It's all just paranoia.

by Sin é Thu 03 Mar 2016, 12:15 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:Yep, that's the easy way to look at it. We'll done

There is too much circumstantial evidence for you to keep dismissing this as anything different to the Irish refs favouring the Irish provinces, it happens more than often.
Well that's not true. If you look on the LeinsterFans forum, a lot of posters think Fitzgibbon has a vendetta against Leinster. It's all just paranoia.

Doesn't he work for Leinster?

by **RiscaGame** Thu 03 Mar 2016, 2:11 am

The knee on the ground was on show in the World Cup. I am pretty sure Wayne Barnes was calling it in the Wales v SA game, when we were trying to play for mauls.

by MonkeyOwain12 Thu 03 Mar 2016, 2:54 am

The knee on the ground has been used predominantly as a means of countering the 'choke' tackle, turning a possible maul in to a tackle pretty quickly. This is why north was penalised against SA (think it was that game).

Firstly, to say that the Davies try was a completed tackle is just plain wrong. It was a push if anything with not much contact, I'd suggest that statistically, a tackle like that would be chalked up as an unsuccessful one.

'A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground. A ball carrier who is not held is not a tackled player and a tackle has not taken place.'

Davies was simply not held.

However, in reading this thread the troubling thing that I'm seeing is people verging on xenophobic ridiculousness. To say that there is a bias involved in Pro 12 officiating is unreal, but to then single out officials based on their nationality is abhorrent.

The real issue with the officiating in the Pro12 is the level of officiating and the refereeing mindset. It's not that often that we'll see a ref give a little wiggle room for the good of the flow of the game. It is however, particularly often that we'll see poor and baffling decisions and wasted minutes on TMO checks and re-setting of scrums.

As much as we moan about the pace of our game in terms of coaching and players, I think that the officials have a major part to play in this.

by geoff999rugby Thu 03 Mar 2016, 8:47 am

The irony of this is that Clancy is one of the 3 senior referees in Britain and Ireland - alongside Barnes and Owens.

He has achieved that by being viewed as a stickler for the rules and has been criticised, frequently, for having no feel for the game.
That has improved in recent years.
The Pro12 may well need to improve the standard of refereeing but Clancy is the level the league will want to get to not the other way round.

As Marshes has mentioned the Pro12 stats disapprove any accusation of national biased by any countries referees in the leagues.

by Pete330v2 Thu 03 Mar 2016, 9:13 am

You see this topic started out fine. It was a debatable decision (I thought it was shocking) which is food for this forum and I thought the OP had perhaps turned a corner.
However, then comes these examples:

"I will compile a list tomorrow, but I will say, how many times have we had situations where an Irish ref has given a pen or a yellow card, only for an independent citing commissioner to judge that it the punishment was not sufficient ?"

"There is too much circumstantial evidence for you to keep dismissing this as anything different to the Irish refs favouring the Irish provinces, it happens more than often."

So it's back to the hatred of everything Irish and the conspiracy between the IRFU and the Pro12. You can argue a ref's incompetence all you wish on here but these rants have become accusations of cheating by professional referees which goes a lot deeper than the usual xenophobic views of the OP.

by LordDowlais Thu 03 Mar 2016, 9:27 am

Pete330v2 wrote:So it's back to the hatred of everything Irish

Why do the Irish members ALWAYS resort to this victim mentality when we discuss these circumstances ?

Why on earth would I hate all things Irish ? FFS, you would swear I on hear slagging the Blarney Stone off, slagging the the International side off, slagging, slagging four leaf clovers off..........

All I have said here is, that there has been too many circumstances where I have seen Irish refs favouring Irish teams in the Pro12, and it does not just mean decisions given, it is also what has been let go, there have been far too many circumstances, I have witnessed this first hand, and I have seen it turn people away from the game. I am not saying these refs are corrupt, but they are very poor and when out of their depth, they seem to favour the team from their own country.

It might only be said by me on here, but trust me at the game itself, everybody goes on about how the Irish regions bring their own refs with them.

Now for saying I have issues with this, now makes me have a hatred of everything Irish ? Please give it a rest, I do not hate Ireland, or the Irish, it's a beautiful country, and I have had one of the best weekends ever just last month when I went there to watch Wales play. So please give this hatred card a rest.

by marty2086 Thu 03 Mar 2016, 9:28 am

MonkeyOwain12 wrote:Firstly, to say that the Davies try was a completed tackle is just plain wrong. It was a push if anything with not much contact, I'd suggest that statistically, a tackle like that would be chalked up as an unsuccessful one.

'A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is held by one or more opponents and is brought to ground. A ball carrier who is not held is not a tackled player and a tackle has not taken place.'

Davies was simply not held.

Can you define held? I think this is where the problem arises, Marmion had a handful of shirt when Davies knee went to ground, hes obviously not being held down but has got a hold of him

by Rory_Gallagher Thu 03 Mar 2016, 9:43 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:So it's back to the hatred of everything Irish

Why do the Irish members ALWAYS resort to this victim mentality when we discuss these circumstances ?

Oh, the irony. Laugh

by geoff999rugby Thu 03 Mar 2016, 9:43 am

Exactly and the law says held not held down and does not specify any time period

by Pete330v2 Thu 03 Mar 2016, 9:46 am

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:So it's back to the hatred of everything Irish

Why do the Irish members ALWAYS resort to this victim mentality when we discuss these circumstances ?

Oh, the irony.

"All I have said here is, that there has been too many circumstances where I have seen Irish refs favouring Irish teams in the Pro12"

There he goes again, he can't help himself.

by marty2086 Thu 03 Mar 2016, 9:49 am

Pete330v2 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:So it's back to the hatred of everything Irish

Why do the Irish members ALWAYS resort to this victim mentality when we discuss these circumstances ?

Oh, the irony.

"All I have said here is, that there has been too many circumstances where I have seen Irish refs favouring Irish teams in the Pro12"

There he goes again, he can't help himself.

And this one

Look, I am not saying it's true, but Jude Quinn is from Munster, he was a TMO for Ospreys, he disallowed a try, now it's not in the realms of fantasy to suggest that a TMO from Munster has dented the chances of one of Munsters main challengers for 6th spot and an European place next season and in the process has given HIS province a real shot in the arm for qualifying for Europe next year, is it ?

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 03 Mar 2016, 9:50 am

I have seen a few calls of not releasing when tackled over the course of this season that looked similar to that of Sam Davies. I personally do not agree that it was a double movement. However, seeing as the others ones (Gareth Owen home V Ulster, Sanjay internationally both spring to mind) have been called as not releasing the ball when tackled, then Sam Davies did the same think, and it was a double movement.

by True Raven Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:09 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:So it's back to the hatred of everything Irish

Why do the Irish members ALWAYS resort to this victim mentality when we discuss these circumstances ?

Why on earth would I hate all things Irish ? FFS, you would swear I on hear slagging the Blarney Stone off, slagging the the International side off, slagging, slagging four leaf clovers off..........

All I have said here is, that there has been too many circumstances where I have seen Irish refs favouring Irish teams in the Pro12, and it does not just mean decisions given, it is also what has been let go, there have been far too many circumstances, I have witnessed this first hand, and I have seen it turn people away from the game. I am not saying these refs are corrupt, but they are very poor and when out of their depth, they seem to favour the team from their own country.

It might only be said by me on here, but trust me at the game itself, everybody goes on about how the Irish regions bring their own refs with them.

Now for saying I have issues with this, now makes me have a hatred of everything Irish ? Please give it a rest, I do not hate Ireland, or the Irish, it's a beautiful country, and I have had one of the best weekends ever just last month when I went there to watch Wales play. So please give this hatred card a rest.

I think its because you keep mentioning Irish officials favour Irish teams when people are showing examples of Welsh officials giving questionable decisions to Welsh teams.

Personally, the SRU and IRFU should get the act together and stop blowing money on searching of time servers and develop officials....that way we can have neutral TMO's which would be a good thing

by **LondonTiger** Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:26 am

do you mean IRFU? Or FIR?

by True Raven Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:26 am

FIR.....doh. But it was meant as tongue in cheek

by LordDowlais Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:34 am

True Raven wrote:I think its because you keep mentioning Irish officials favour Irish teams when people are showing examples of Welsh officials giving questionable decisions to Welsh teams.

Ummm OK. But I can only think of one time that this has happened with Welsh officials, and that was when Pat Lamb went nuts after the game in Cardiff.

We seem to be constantly getting these circumstances with the Irish refs.

by True Raven Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:43 am

I mentioned an example above where the Scarlets were awarded a penalty against Edinburgh which won them the game. It was given by a welsh linesman

http://www.southwales-eveningpost.co.uk/Scarlets-v-Edinburgh-reaction-Pivac-relieved/story-28726836-detail/story.html

Sh!t happens but its going to happen unless the pro12 gets its act together

by Pete330v2 Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:47 am

"Ummm OK. But I can only think of one time that this has happened with Welsh officials"

You seem to only see what you want to see because you're blinkered. If you concentrated less on the great Irish conspiracy perhaps you'd see a little more of what really goes on and not just the evil leprechauns in your head.

by exile jack Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:47 am

Just to clarify,i can understand fully the lack of disappointment from the Connacht supporters over the disallowed try given some of the decisions that have gone against them in the past,but most thought it a try.Like the happy feet incident at Twickers it's a question of interpretation.The O's didn't lose the game because of the disallowed try,but because of several other reasons that that our coaching staff acknowledge.The issue I have with Clancy is that his career is becoming dominated by controversies.Leaving aside the Yachvili incident in 2010 which cost us a Heineken Cup Final place,supporters of Ulster,Scotland(where his decisions benefitted Wales),and South Africa have all had reasons to criticise his refereeing decisions.As an elite level referee you'd hope World Rugby and the Pro 12 would be having the appropriate words behind closed doors.I suppose the question is how many controversies make a demotion? I don't suppose GC will ever self-acknowledge he made a mistake as that Bryce Lawrence did after that SA v AUS game.

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:52 am

geoff999rugby wrote:Once a player in possession of the ball has been brought to ground by a tackler, they must release the ball immediately

Can someone explain to me why we see players passing from the floor, having been tackled? Why is that allowed if the above is true?

That's not a WUM but a genuine question.

by LordDowlais Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:54 am

Pete330v2 wrote:If you concentrated less on the great Irish conspiracy perhaps you'd see a little more of what really goes on and not just the evil leprechauns in your head.

I do not think that though.

I am just saying that there is far too much circumstantial evidence for it to be paranoia.

We keep arguing the toss about this week after week, season after season.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:55 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Once a player in possession of the ball has been brought to ground by a tackler, they must release the ball immediately

Can someone explain to me why we see players passing from the floor, having been tackled? Why is that allowed if the above is true?

That's not a WUM but a genuine question.

15.5 The tackled player
(a)
A tackled player must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents from gaining possession of it, and must try to make the ball available immediately so that play can continue.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b)
A tackled player must immediately pass the ball or release it. That player must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(c)
A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d)
A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(e)
If opposition players who are on their feet attempt to play the ball, the tackled player must release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Tackled player must release the ball immediately
(f)
If a tackled player’s momentum carries the player into the in-goal, the player can score a try or make a touch down.
(g)
If a player is tackled near the goal line, that player may immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal line to score a try or make a touch down.

by mikey_dragon Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:55 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Once a player in possession of the ball has been brought to ground by a tackler, they must release the ball immediately

Can someone explain to me why we see players passing from the floor, having been tackled? Why is that allowed if the above is true?

That's not a WUM but a genuine question.

If they released immediately it would surely be a knock-on... No offence but it sounds like a couple Irish posters that have commented on this in favour of Clancy haven't played the game.

by marty2086 Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:56 am

exile jack wrote:Just to clarify,i can understand fully the lack of disappointment from the Connacht supporters over the disallowed try given some of the decisions that have gone against them in the past,but most thought it a try.Like the happy feet incident at Twickers it's a question of interpretation.The O's didn't lose the game because of the disallowed try,but because of several other reasons that that our coaching staff acknowledge.The issue I have with Clancy is that his career is becoming dominated by controversies.Leaving aside the Yachvili incident in 2010 which cost us a Heineken Cup Final place,supporters of Ulster,Scotland(where his decisions benefitted Wales),and South Africa have all had reasons to criticise his refereeing decisions.As an elite level referee you'd hope World Rugby and the Pro 12 would be having the appropriate words behind closed doors.I suppose the question is how many controversies make a demotion? I don't suppose GC will ever self-acknowledge he made a mistake as that Bryce Lawrence did after that SA v AUS game.

As an Ulster fan I know we have been frustrated by Clancy and Lacey more than a few times and the same with Nigel Davies but there are times where hes been generous too

Those claiming the AP and Top 14 have better standards are kidding themselves, Barnes isn't the great ref, his pernickety nature wouldn't be so bad if he was right more often especially at the breakdown and scrums

Poite and Garces are the best the French have to offer and they can be shocking

Super Rugby are even worse and have some refs that make the Pro 12 look world class, Glen Jackson in the Ireland Wales game I thought was the best Id seen this season and hes had some howlers in the past

by marty2086 Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:57 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Once a player in possession of the ball has been brought to ground by a tackler, they must release the ball immediately

Can someone explain to me why we see players passing from the floor, having been tackled? Why is that allowed if the above is true?

That's not a WUM but a genuine question.

If they released immediately it would surely be a knock-on... No offence but it sounds like a couple Irish posters that have commented on this in favour of Clancy haven't played the game.

Or maybe some Welsh posters are thinking things through, just because you release it doesn't mean it goes forward hence no knock on picard

by LordDowlais Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:58 am

Another incident just a few weeks ago was in the Ulster V Scarlets game involving the corner flag, the ball was kicked into the Ulster 22 and the ball hit the corner flag, as the corner flag is deemed as part of the touch line, then the ball was correctly ruled as out in touch.

But when Ulster scored their try, the player, I forget who it was more or less flattened the corner flag before he grounded the ball and the try was awarded, now if the corner flag is deemed as part of the touch line, then that player was in touch, thus the try should not have stood, but guess what the Irish TMO gave ?

by geoff999rugby Thu 03 Mar 2016, 10:58 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Once a player in possession of the ball has been brought to ground by a tackler, they must release the ball immediately

Can someone explain to me why we see players passing from the floor, having been tackled? Why is that allowed if the above is true?

That's not a WUM but a genuine question.

Provided they do it immediately they are releasing the ball but it does illustrate that players who delay when passing, from the ground, are breaking the law and should be penalised.

by geoff999rugby Thu 03 Mar 2016, 11:01 am

mikey_dragon wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Once a player in possession of the ball has been brought to ground by a tackler, they must release the ball immediately

Can someone explain to me why we see players passing from the floor, having been tackled? Why is that allowed if the above is true?

That's not a WUM but a genuine question.

If they released immediately it would surely be a knock-on... No offence but it sounds like a couple Irish posters that have commented on this in favour of Clancy haven't played the game.

Provided it is passed backwards why would it be a knock on Headscratch

Played the game plenty in fact shared a pitch with a guy who made the subs bench for Wales !
Why the insult just because others disagree - totally unnecessary

by marty2086 Thu 03 Mar 2016, 11:02 am

LordDowlais wrote:Another incident just a few weeks ago was in the Ulster V Scarlets game involving the corner flag, the ball was kicked into the Ulster 22 and the ball hit the corner flag, as the corner flag is deemed as part of the touch line, then the ball was correctly ruled as out in touch.

But when Ulster scored their try, the player, I forget who it was more or less flattened the corner flag before he grounded the ball and the try was awarded, now if the corner flag is deemed as part of the touch line, then that player was in touch, thus the try should not have stood, but guess what the Irish TMO gave ?

Your assuming the first decision was correct because it wasn't, was there not a case of the ball hitting the corner flag recently and bouncing out for a player to pick up and score a try?

It must be at least 5 years since the corner flag was considered in touch

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 03 Mar 2016, 11:05 am

Thanks, Geoff (and London Tiger).

by marty2086 Thu 03 Mar 2016, 11:05 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Pete330v2 wrote:If you concentrated less on the great Irish conspiracy perhaps you'd see a little more of what really goes on and not just the evil leprechauns in your head.

I do not think that though.

I am just saying that there is far too much circumstantial evidence for it to be paranoia.

We keep arguing the toss about this week after week, season after season.

Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact—like a fingerprint at the scene of a crime. By contrast, direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion directly—i.e., without need for any additional evidence or inference

Direct evidence says you are wrong

by geoff999rugby Thu 03 Mar 2016, 11:09 am

LordDowlais wrote:Another incident just a few weeks ago was in the Ulster V Scarlets game involving the corner flag, the ball was kicked into the Ulster 22 and the ball hit the corner flag, as the corner flag is deemed as part of the touch line, then the ball was correctly ruled as out in touch.

But when Ulster scored their try, the player, I forget who it was more or less flattened the corner flag before he grounded the ball and the try was awarded, now if the corner flag is deemed as part of the touch line, then that player was in touch, thus the try should not have stood, but guess what the Irish TMO gave ?

The corner flag is not in touch
Here is the rule for you

If the ball or a player carrying the ball touches a flag or a flag (corner) post at the intersection of the touch-in-goal lines and the goal lines or at the intersection of the touch-in-goal lines and the dead ball lines without otherwise being in touch or touch-in-goal the ball is not out of play.

So in the first incidence it was what subsequently happened to the ball that determined the decision
In the second incident touching the corner flag did not make the player out of play and therefore the try was correctly given.

Seems to me you and others need to read the rulebook before trolling about ill informed bias by referees

by mikey_dragon Thu 03 Mar 2016, 11:49 am

geoff999rugby wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:Once a player in possession of the ball has been brought to ground by a tackler, they must release the ball immediately

Can someone explain to me why we see players passing from the floor, having been tackled? Why is that allowed if the above is true?

That's not a WUM but a genuine question.

If they released immediately it would surely be a knock-on... No offence but it sounds like a couple Irish posters that have commented on this in favour of Clancy haven't played the game.

Provided it is passed backwards why would it be a knock on

Played the game plenty in fact shared a pitch with a guy who made the subs bench for Wales !
Why the insult just because others disagree - totally unnecessary

Well you did say immediately release upon being tackled, rather than place the ball back. I've seen a lot of knock-ons given when players go to ground and let go of the ball. It was like this when I played rugby, and none of that 'knee to floor' funny business, just bringing the guy to the ground. Don't look for an insult when it isn't there, that's just silly.

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