Roger Lewis to Meet Regional Bosses

'Welsh Rugby Union chief Roger Lewis is to meet the nation's regional powerbrokers to discuss the findings of a financial report into the professional tier.

The review by accountants PricewaterhouseCoopers was commissioned amid fears over the regions' viability.

The four regions have since imposed a £3.5m salary cap and a host of Test stars have decided to leave Wales .

"I would like a more centralised approach from the WRU," said Lewis.

"It's a question of what does that mean and how far does it go."

The WRU chief executive will meet backers, chairmen and senior officials from the Ospreys, Cardiff Blues, Newport Gwent Dragons and Scarlets at 0800 BST on Wednesday, 2 May in Swansea.

Lewis say he has "made no secret" of his desire for the WRU to have a greater say in the game's running.

And in April, he told BBC Sport Wales: "There's only so many things we can control.... I would like to have greater control of what takes place in Welsh regional rugby, but to do that we've got to have everyone in agreement."'

( http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/17914649 )

So here we go - the independent report is in, now we're going to hear what the WRU's grand plan is. Sorry, we're going to hear what its grand plan is 'going forward', seeing as that's the utterly superfluous phrase everyone in rugby seems to use these days, Roger Lewis among them. But I digress.

Are the Dragons going to be 'downgraded'? Will we see the creation of the new Valleys Rugby regional team? Will the Blues be rescued or cut adrift? We'll find out soon enough!

I'm a bit worried about what they mean as "greater control". The WRU already dictate much of what happens with the regions as they organise so many international games (and outside the international window too!), that completely scuppers any chance of the regions having any sort of consistency - especially in Europe.

Wales are very much in the danger point of doing everything for team Wales. Yes I think team Wales should be the no 1 focus, but not at the absolute expense of the regions. We need a balance where the regions can still remain truly competative otherwise they simply won't survive, but we still need to keep producing the players for Wales to be successful too. Twill be tricky.

And I always get nervous when I read things with the sort of speak like "going forward" in it. That's just business man BS to be honest, doesn't fill me with too much confidence anyways!

Good point on 'Team Wales', Dreamer. I hope we don't end up in a similar situation to English cricket, where everything is so focussed on the national side that the Test players hardly ever turn out for their counties any more.

Well to be fair, it's sort of already happening. Not necesarrily down to being away with Wales, but with the state the players are in when they get back, t he regions haven't been able to play them anyway!

I think we are getting like the cricket team though, but it would be a massive shame if it stayed that way.

The WRU just needs to clear its debts and then please, please cut the international fixture list!

Warburton said in an article the other week that the Wales internationals should only be playing 20 or so games a year (for region and country), as he said when they get back form being with Team Wales, they just can't give their best to the regions and that doesn't seem right to me.

It's a fine balance, but a lot of our team are so young, over playing them could be a real concern for their futures in terms of longevity in playing.

Roger Lewis wrote:"I would like a more centralised approach from the WRU," said Lewis.

"It's a question of what does that mean and how far does it go."

SO I read that as "We are going to have centralised contracts, however we are not sure whether to give them to just first choice players, or the whole 6Ns squad".

You may well be right, Spiderman. The question is one of balance and regional squad depth; the IRFU have central contracts but the provinces seem to be able to cope with it.

I thought David Pickering said the other week that centralised contracts was an impossibility??

Or that we definitely couldn't follow the Irish model as they have that tax subsidy thingy that I don't really understand,, and that we couldn't get taht sort of agreement over here?

Confusing. Will be interesting to see what comes of it anyways.

I hope centralised contracts don't happen. After all it would just lead the WRU to raping certain teams of the players that they have brought through (like forcing Phillips to the Blues, and trying to force Peel there when he left etc etc).

But I honestly have a feeling that what ever they come out with it will be a middle finger up to the fans of regional rugby, and not any gain to anyone (see i am in a positive mood today).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Roger Lewis wrote:"I would like a more centralised approach from the WRU," said Lewis.

"It's a question of what does that mean and how far does it go."

SO I read that as "We are going to have centralised contracts, however we are not sure whether to give them to just first choice players, or the whole 6Ns squad".

That is exactly what I made of it. I cannot see another region starting, and I think from next year on we will see the North Wales region in the Welsh Premiership. I also think that the premeirship will be ringfenced and you will have a rugby league style promotion and relagation where teams have to apply to get in, and I think it will depend on how many each region will have in the league, for instance if the Ospreys have 4 sides from within ther region then one will have to drop out (the lowest one) for one to get in, but if none of the sides are in the relagation area then no other sides from within the region can apply. I hope I explained it clear enough.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with, and I'm with Dreamer in that I'm really worried if the WRU/Team Wales have greater control over the internationals, as it's already scandulous that half a season went by without all of a regions internationals being in a fit enough state to play - or that Team Wales continually play players when their injured so that they come back to the regions broken and in need of surgery.

I see that statement

Roger Lewis wrote: wrote:
"I would like a more centralised approach from the WRU,"
"It's a question of what does that mean and how far does it go." said Lewis.

As the WRU saying they are considering centralised contracts and that would be at the 'far' end of the scale, but are also considering if they will go that far, and what other options are open to them (such as maybe taking some ownership off the regions in exchange for the money their giving the regions and being able to have greater control in the way their run, the way their marketed (hopefully) and maybe even where they play (if they play around the region)

To be honest I think this sounds a lot like Central Contracting and that can be only a good thing. Yes everything is geared towards team Wales. The WRU provide a majority of the funding to the sport as is. So of course it stands to reason them making money is of paramount importance to the health of the game in Wales. I dont think they will centrally fund all the player pool but certanly the top 30. I wonder if they will take the bolder step and maintain players need to play in Wales to play for Wales.

Here are a few things central contracts will stop. Constant snatching of players from other Regions. The salary cap to some degree has stopped it but when you look at the Scarlets for example in regards to Lou Reed, they will likely lose him to the Blues. If external french and english clubs come in to snatch our best players, that would be one thing but to get into a bidding war over players with other regions is totally insane and drives the cost of quality players up internally. Thats not good for anyone in the long run.

A fairer distribution of talent, or i hope anyway. If they split 32 players out between the 4 regions equally then at least each region has only lost 8 players. Ospreys in previous years have supplied far more than this and now the Scarlets for example. That to some degree is why they then have to bigger disruption. This would also lead to a more open competition as well if internationals are split around equally. At the end of the day each of the regions wants to be top of the pile (which i can understand) but if one team is allowed to dominate it will ruin the competition in the long run.


The real reasons why Welsh sides are currently not winning the HC boils down to some simple things really.

Lack of Support from fans - 16th man makes a difference to the best sides.

Lack of quality in the front 5 - you won't win the HC without this. Tighthead is a massive problem in Wales- Until that is addressed any aspirations to be the best are silly. You wont win the HC without a International standard tigthead. In the past Welsh Regions have tried to bring in sub standard forgeiners (with the exception of the Ospreys) and try to plug the gap instead of looking to develop their own Welsh Talent in this position.

Lack of game plan/identity - With the exception being the Scarlets none of the other 3 really have developed a style to their attacking game. Tandy is his short term has already addressed this with the Ospreys. The Scarlets despite knowing how they want to play though at times struggle against the better packs as the front 8 dont then supply them the ball they need to execute. Blues are just woefull! Ive watched countless games of theirs this season and at times I really dont think even the players look like they know what they are supposed to be doing with ball in hand. The Dragons try to play but really lack the quality of player (with the exception of 3 or 4) to really execute the moves.


Thrown into the ring the the Blues/Scarlets/Dragons have made some absolute dreadful foreign signings in their tenure and even worse coaching appointments and you get where I am coming from.

The point being is that the Regions need someone to blame for the lack of success. Internationals Away is the only one they can really use, although lack of finance seems to be a recent favourite as well.

Some good points there, Mushroom, especially your point about the need for us to develop youth rather than bringing in substandard NWQ players. A world-class foreign player can make a huge difference to a side - Ruan Pienaar and Rocky Elsom, for example - but a NWQ who's never set the world alight and is coming to the end of his career is unlikely to benefit anyone, and he'd be taking the place of a young Welsh player with his career in front of him. All four regions need to be recruiting players based on talent, not accent.

Welshmushroom wrote:Thrown into the ring the the Blues/Scarlets/Dragons have made some absolute dreadful foreign signings in their tenure and even worse coaching appointments and you get where I am coming from.

Lets not forget how good signings like Karuna and Fotuali'i were for the Ospreys. We have all signed absolute howlers.

Welshmushroom wrote:A fairer distribution of talent, or i hope anyway. If they split 32 players out between the 4 regions equally then at least each region has only lost 8 players. Ospreys in previous years have supplied far more than this and now the Scarlets for example. That to some degree is why they then have to bigger disruption. This would also lead to a more open competition as well if internationals are split around equally. At the end of the day each of the regions wants to be top of the pile (which i can understand) but if one team is allowed to dominate it will ruin the competition in the long run.

I have never been a fan of doing this. A player should have the right to decide where they play. A good example is Ken Owens, who is a Scarlets fan first and a rugby player second. If the WRU evenly distributed the players around the regions, then odds are he would end up being shipped off to another region. Also the regions spend a heap of time and moeny developing the player they bring through. If the Ospreys knew that the moment Matthew Morgan makes it into the national squad he would be shipped off to the Dragons then why would they waste their time bringing him through?

Also if the players are moved to regions the WRU see as their best fit, then the regional squads would pretty much need to be totally remade. After all it would be in the national sides best interest for our first choice front row to play together week in week out, so then they would have to be based at one region, and likewise our half backs, back row and centres, would need to be paried up at a region in order to give the best results.

Welshmushroom wrote:The point being is that the Regions need someone to blame for the lack of success. Internationals Away is the only one they can really use, although lack of finance seems to be a recent favourite as well.

What lack of success? Between us since regionalism we have won 4 out of 10 Celtic/Magners/Rabo titles and had a final in the Celtic Cup. We have won 2 Anglo-Welsh Cups, and had a team in all bar 2 finals, and a team in every semi-final round. We have won 1 Amlin Cup, and had 2 semi-finals in the HEC, and numerous semi-finals (also a few QFs and SFs in the Amlin). I don't think that the Irish provinces were such a force when they were only 10.

The problem we have is that everyone seems to expect instant results, and want to throw the baby (and generally all the toys) out with the bath water.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Some good points there, Mushroom, especially your point about the need for us to develop youth rather than bringing in substandard NWQ players. A world-class foreign player can make a huge difference to a side - Ruan Pienaar and Rocky Elsom, for example - but a NWQ who's never set the world alight and is coming to the end of his career is unlikely to benefit anyone, and he'd be taking the place of a young Welsh player with his career in front of him. All four regions need to be recruiting players based on talent, not accent.

In fairness of late we have seen a fair number of NWQs who seem to have come over and helped bring through the next generation. Signings like King, Lamont, Lyons, Tito, Rush, Tiatia and Bowe (off the top of my head) have all IMO been pretty usefull in bringing through younger players like Jon Davies, Scott Williams, George North, Liam Williams, Bradley Davies, Luke Hamilton, Sam Warburton (to a point), Kris Phillips, Eli Walker, Hanno Dirkson.

We seemed to go off the rails with the money that regionalism/professionalism brought and thought that NWQs (more specifically Kiwi/Aussie/Saffer) were inheriently good. But over the last few seasons the silly signings have been reduced, and the number of quality ones have increased.

Those foreign players you mention were all international players (bar Tito, I think). I wasn't talking about players of that calibre.

Luckless - what I meant was the signings like Craig Dunlea, Simon Marling, Mosses Livitisau, Karuna etc were generally down to giving fools more moeny than they knew what to do with, and now the regions have gorwn up a bit more and are making more sensible signings.

And fools spending money they didn't have, in some instances.

Do you just mean all the other regions except the Dragons, Lucky?

You're putting words in my mouth now, Dreamer!

I wouldn't dare

I'm not sure I like the idea of centralised contracts though. What if a player is centrally contracted but falls out of form? Do Wales have to play him regardless? Would they be able to drop him and bring someone else in to play for Wales in his place? How would it all work?

I think it might end up causing more problems then resolving anything in the long term.

I'd guess there would be pressure to play the centrally-contracted player, even if he's out of form and a better player is breathing down his neck. It would bring back the perception that once you're in with Wales, you're in for a while regardless of how you're playing (remember Jonathan Thomas and Huw Bennett a season or two ago).

Aye and that's a situation we all want to avoid. Just worried that centralised contracts would ring fence players so we were limited as to who we could pick from. Sounds like it could all end up being quite messy to me.

Dreamer - annother issue is that the players would need to have their contracts on a seasonal basis, as players come and go from the national setup (especially fringe players) season by season. So if Player A is used to being on a central contract and then gets dropped byt he WRU odds are he would jump ship straight away to where-ever the money was best, in order to maintain the lifestyle they got used to under the WRUs contract. Like Luke Fitzgerald issues that i read about on here before, where the IRFU have put him down a band in the pay structure, leading to talk of him looking for a job elsewhere outside of Ireland.

Wouldn't it be better to use a bonus system instead of central contracts. So you get a wage from the region and a bonus structure from the WRU if selected for the Welsh squad. It would be easier to reward a player if they stay in Wales. Example, Bonus for being selected = £X amount, + Payment per match, additional bonus for living / playing for Welsh region.

Players would still be able to earn more and the WRU would be without the commitments of playing centrally contracted players.

They could even reward players for long service to a region. Hopefully reducing the number of players leaving. Example: 5 years service & 10 years service.

Just a thought....

Hopefully they've thought of all the possibilities. The WRU are usually thorough.

The Irish tax back thing doesn't apply to Ulster based players as they pay income tax to the UK not Ireland.

I think the 'how far' thing is related to the Kiwi model (where every one is central contracted) and the Irish model (where some are contracted to the province and some are contracted the IRFU). I think that's right altough not sure. It's a very fine balance and one the WRU need to be careful about. I'm not sure if they could force it through if the regions disagree. It would be at the next funding agreement.

I think it should be a reward system, the more young players a region produces and the more players they supply to the international side and the more Welsh players that they have in their region then the more money they should get, this will help pay for the Welsh internationals and keep them in Wales and will stop the regions giving inflated contracts to NWQ players.

I'm not in favour, generally, of NWQ signings as they are more expensive than giving young Welsh talent it's head, and also they can hold back Welsh players - however they have major pluses; they are available all year round (except some like Lamont and Bowe), as such they help team cohesion as you can rely on at least 1 of your star players being in the team and can build a team around them (look at how disorganised the Scarlets backs looked when we'd got rid of King and then North, JD2, S Williams, L Williams and Lamont went away with the int squads), they have experienced different styles of playing and as such can bring different skills to the region, the good NWQ players can also help develop the youngsters at the region massively.

But I think the big question the region ask (considering the number of games Wales play) is "Do we want to spend time developing a great Welsh prospect who may fail, but if he does become good will be missing with Wales for half the season OR should we sign a NWQ player for a bit more money and we're guarenteed access to him for a full season"

I like the idea of bonuses for Welsh int players and also to regions who supply Welsh players/have more Welsh players (%) in their squads. The only prob I could forsee is that Welsh regions may start trying to buy Welsh players from each other, thus raising the price of these players and maybe leaving a region like the Dragons without their star players (coz a region like say Ospreys have bought all their best Welsh players to bump up their bonus payments)

That's where a bonus payment system could help, I suppose.

Seeing as this meeting was at 0800 this morning, when will the events of the meeting be made public?

Soon.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Seeing as this meeting was at 0800 this morning, when will the events of the meeting be made public?

Probably when the secrecy act has been exorsised in thirty years time.

Scarlet, the point I am making is that without central contracts the regions just compete against themselves for players. It drives up prices of the better players.

Prior to the salary cap Ospreys and the Blues both where big villains of poaching Scarlet/Dragon players even more so when you consider what happens at ASDA Premiership level. Take Kieron Jenkins for example. He looks a useful Tighthead. A couple of outings for the Dragons this season but wont be eligble to play for us because he has signed for a Blues Team in the ASDA Premiership. Now I ask you, is that right?

Scarlet, I do get your point regarding youth development and having players stolen but it's not like its not happening under no central contracts.

The main point should be that the best 4 players in each position should be playing against each other week in week out. Not warming benches and collecting pension top ups. Gavin Evans is a perfect example. At the Scarlets he looked like an International centre in the making. Moves to the Blues where Roberts/Shanks/Laulala/Hewitt have kept him a bit part player. Now did that really hinder the Scarlets? No, instead they found better centres in Davies/Williams. Even Warren looks promising. The point is if you have a good academy should be able to replace players.

What really needs to be addressed though is the distribution of young talent in the Premiership. It cant be right that a promising youngster who might be needed for lets say the Dragons for a couple of matches cannot without consent from the parent region for that club.

The truth is you wont stop paoching without central contracts and maybe giving the players some say on which region they want to represent. A free roaming draft system in the Premiership is also needed.

The current system we have is totally based on each region trying to keep the others down. That benefits no one.

At least attendance will increase when they can figure out that they need to improve the product. No one came to watch 10 man rugby. Its not really our welsh tradition either. I know people tend to have a go at the lack of attendances but none of the regions (except Scarlets - who ironically are the only growing fan base currently) have played positive attacking rugby in the past. Had Tandy been given the squads the previous head coaches had, im sure Ospreys may even have won a HC in that time. But the calibre of coaches where awful at getting the best from them.

I just hope the regions return to a more running orientated game.

P.S. While I'm at it they need to sort the ref'ing out in the Rabbo. We have some good ones but more often than not its woeful. No one came to hear a whistle blow.

Fuss over nothing, leave everything as it is.

This is covered on another thread and is totally valid;

Strong Irish provinces = inconsistent Test team.

Rubbish Welsh regions = 3 Grand Slams.

If it ain't broke.....

Welshmushroom wrote:they need to sort the ref'ing out in the Rabbo. We have some good ones but more often than not its woeful. No one came to hear a whistle blow.

It's true that there are some poor referees in the Rabo, but don't blame the referees for the number of penalties and free kicks given away, blame the players. The fewer offences they commit, the less whistle you'll hear.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:they need to sort the ref'ing out in the Rabbo. We have some good ones but more often than not its woeful. No one came to hear a whistle blow.

It's true that there are some poor referees in the Rabo, but don't blame the referees for the number of penalties and free kicks given away, blame the players. The fewer offences they commit, the less whistle you'll hear.

It's crazy thinking like that that's ruining this country. I think we should have an official, governed, anarchy.

The Scottish refs in the Rabbo are awful.

Mushroom - I do see your point, and it is valid. I just have some real fears that if we did go down the centralised contracts route that it would not be hendled correctly. There needs to be allowences for players who feel an affinitey to their home region, which they should, to stay there. Part of the reason the Scarlets attendances are up is down to the fact that a large number of the lads getting game time are from within the region, and people want to go and see their local lads playing well. Anyway, I guess we need to wait and see what Roger Lewis wanted out of the meeting, after all we could have jumped on the "I would like a more centralised approach from the WRU," comment assuming it meant centralised contracts, when it could have been about funding, or a monthly WRU/Regional meeting etc etc.

munkian wrote:The Scottish refs in the Rabbo are awful.

There are a few bad Irish one as well, or should I say biased............

Now let's be fair, that Leighton Hodges isn't great, to say the least.

On NWQ players could they do what the irish want to do.
You can only have one NWQ per postion across the regions, if you break it you get no funding,

Wales have the players to do it I think.

Exceptions could be made for the dragons and also if there are enough people in the position across all regions so say fly half

Any news come out of the metting yet

Nope no news, doubt we'll hear anything for a while either, that seems to be standard with things concerning WRU!

If there is no new conference it will be all business speak or the regions said get lost or maybe the WRU said get lost. Either way good news is always told as soon as possible

Brendan - if it was something to do with the changing of structures then I would assume that the regions would go away and look through their finances, and throught all the paperwork before coming to any sort of decision.

But the regions will have already gone through their finances in advance of the independent review. The Dragons did, at least.

Luckless - being serious how often does anyone come to a decision after a first meeting about something? I know that at work there tends to be one meeting just to officially inform everyone of the ideas, and then another meeting generally within a week or so, where everyone has had a chance to officially think things through where things get discussed propperly. And sometimes more for if any interesting differing opinions have been aired.

You're right, but you'd think that seeing as they made quite a big deal of this meeting they'd have something to say to the media afterwards, even if it was noncommittal.

Yeah I would have expected to see/hear about "The WRU and Regions being in talks over XXXXX" somewhere today. But that said it's not even 13:00 yet, and the WRU seem to be unable to get out of bed early when it comes to press releases.