6N 2016: Ireland v Italy, 12 March

First topic message reminder :


IRELAND v ITALY
12 March 2016
KO: 13:30 GMT
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on RTE, DMAX, ITV, FR2 / BBC (H)

Referee: Angus Gardner (Australia)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

16 Played 16
15 Won 1
0 Drawn 0
1 Lost 15
519 Points 209

B. Recent Form

4 October 2015: Olympic Stadium, London, England
16 – 9 to Ireland
2015 Rugby World Cup Pool D

7 February 2015: Stadio Olimpico, Rome
3 – 26 to Ireland
2015 Six Nations Championship

8 March 2014: Aviva Stadium, Dublin
46 – 7 to Ireland
2014 Six Nations Championship

16 March 2013: Stadio Olimpico, Rome
22 – 15 to Italy
2013 Six Nations Championship

25 February 2012: Aviva Stadium, Dublin
42 – 10 to Ireland
2012 Six Nations Championship

C. Teams

IRELAND
 
[tbc]

ITALY

[tbc]

SOB has averaged 10 starts a season in the last 3 (that is total games for Leinster and Ireland).

Healy's starting stats are similar.

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Who said Zebo wasn't part of the future?

Well he needs a position.  15 looks like one he could handle IF finally allowed time in one position as a Regular.

He's done the apprenticeship and has much to offer in attack.  Personally speaking, I don't think he'll find it on the wing but has promise at 15.

So... if he's part of the future why should he be dropped off the team one more time to push Payne back there?

He's got a position - Wing. Why use him at 15 when Payne is the form player there? Not that Zebo won't eventually make a great 15, none of us know, but we do know if Payne moves to 15, the better option right now, that allows McCloskey and Henshaw in the centre. Zebo moving there doesn't allow for that.

We don't know what Payne would be like at 15 internationally. Think he (like Rob) would be short on pace for starters.

You just can't beat pace.

Why doesn't Payne take a break then as he seems to be another odd man out in terms of the 'future' and in danger of joining his pals Healy and SOB on the dole queue before the next World Cup?

Payne = good solid player.  I've never said anything to criticise him when he was getting it in the neck from certain people some time ago.  I've always said that Payne at 13 was not to blame for any of our more disappointing results.  Unfortunately for me though, he's not nearly the essential x-Factor player - that needs to so bluntly push Zebo back to the sideline (a 'future' player that needs time to settle into a position).

So unfortunately for Payne and his age, maybe it's suddenly his time to do the cameos too - like increasingly is becoming the lot of Healy and SOB?

Munchkin wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:No way is Zebo only a wing.  I see Zebo getting more opportunity to be 'Zebo' at 15 than on the wing.  The wing is too slim a line for him waiting for others to start the creative process.
But still...the truth is he's 25 and Payne is 30.  The WC is 4 years away.  The WC will need once again, the pace and vigour of youth to cut anything positive from it.

Payne won't be with Ireland for the next RWC, but neither will Best, SOB, Healy, Trimble and so on. It's about trying to win games now, and bring the young blood through at the same time. It is a balance, but the argument now is that some form players, those viewed as the future for Ireland, are not being given a fair chance. Do you think we would have lost to Italy playing Payne at FB, with McCloskey at Centre? or Henshaw at FB, with Payne at centre? We wouldn't have lost.

Healy and SoB will be at the next WC injuries and form permitting.

Why use Payne at FB if he doesn't plan to use him there long term,same thing with Henshaw.I can see an argument for McCloskey starting ahead of Henshaw for sure.

You're an incredible optimist if you think Healy and SOB will represent Ireland in the next world cup, although you provide the caveat of injury and form.

The reason for Payne at FB, is that Payne is the form player in Ireland, at the moment. Henshaw isn't a 12, and there's a sense that we are not getting the best of him in that position, so should either switch to 13, or 15. If Ireland were to use players in possibly the best positions, we would likely see Payne at 15, McCloskey at 12 and Hendhaw at 13. If we played our form players, we would also see Jackson ahead of Madigan.

Why,BoD and PoC went through injury ravaged stages of their careers where they were off form and most people thought they were finished,both came back to have Indian Summers.I see no reason Healy and SoB can't do the same,obviously there is a non 0% chance they won't but there is no reason to write them off.

Payne at FB isn't going to happen at all imo,the only chance is if Farrell can get Henshaw to lead the defense from 13 in the same way Payne can.People can give out about prioritising defense over attack but then complain about our defense being too passive when he isn't there.I'd agree with Jackson ahead of Madigan for sure,I'd also like to see Furlong ahead of White and Marmion to take possession of the backup SH role.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Who said Zebo wasn't part of the future?

Well he needs a position.  15 looks like one he could handle IF finally allowed time in one position as a Regular.

He's done the apprenticeship and has much to offer in attack.  Personally speaking, I don't think he'll find it on the wing but has promise at 15.

So... if he's part of the future why should he be dropped off the team one more time to push Payne back there?

He's got a position - Wing. Why use him at 15 when Payne is the form player there? Not that Zebo won't eventually make a great 15, none of us know, but we do know if Payne moves to 15, the better option right now, that allows McCloskey and Henshaw in the centre. Zebo moving there doesn't allow for that.

We don't know what Payne would be like at 15 internationally. Think he (like Rob) would be short on pace for starters.

You just can't beat pace.

You can't beat brains.

Munchkin wrote:

He's got a position - Wing.

Why put him there? Fast and inventive doesn't always require a 'wing' position for best utilisation of a player. I think the wing in modern rugby can often contain an imaginative player. Better they have decisions of a right/left nature for full utilisation of skills.

And who gets dropped from the wing from that BIG selection of Possibles that can fill that role?

I have to agree with Munchkin. Payne may not have the speed of feet but he has the speed of mind to be very good 15 and why are people writing him off for the next RWC. he will only be 33/34...

SecretFly wrote:Why doesn't Payne take a break then as he seems to be another odd man out in terms of the 'future' and in danger of joining his pals Healy and SOB on the dole queue before the next World Cup?

Payne = good solid player.  I've never said anything to criticise him when he was getting it in the neck from certain people some time ago.  I've always said that Payne at 13 was not to blame for any of our more disappointing results.  Unfortunately for me though, he's not nearly the essential x-Factor player - that needs to so bluntly push Zebo back to the sideline (a 'future' player that needs time to settle into a position).

So unfortunately for Payne and his age, maybe it's suddenly his time to do the cameos too - like increasingly is becoming the lot of Healy and SOB?

Payne at centre was forced through lack of viable options, and it is time to look to the future. That's should be happening, and should be seen to happening in games like yesterday. It didn't happen. I'm not arguing the case for Payne at centre. He has done a great job there, although limited by Schmidts defensive game plan. In a game as open as yesterdays we get to see more from him.
Sure, we can get rid of Payne altogether, but that would be nuts. He is bringing a huge amount to the team, in terms of experience, and why dismiss the best 15 in Ireland? Better to keep him, if we want to win games.
Zebo is the now, and possibly the future. How many years has Zebo been with us? How many caps? I like Zebo, and do think he had a great game yesterday, but against very weak opposition.

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

He's got a position - Wing.

Why put him there?  Fast and inventive doesn't always require a 'wing' position for best utilisation of a player.  I think the wing in modern rugby can often contain an imaginative player.  Better they have decisions of a right/left nature for full utilisation of skills.  

And who gets dropped from the wing from that BIG selection of Possibles that can fill that role?

To play Zeebs on the wing would mean moving Earls to right wing. I think Schmidt wants Earls on the left wing as he is also an accomplished centre and makes up for the existing centre's deficiencies in attack.

34... O'Driscoll had been through two or three retirement phases by then, billy When 30 hits you do begin to feel those hits more and feel the effort of getting into top gear more too.... just ask Heaslip!!!

I was laughing at the puff the game was taking out of him..and then delighted when the final whistle went, you could see him mouth 'I'm f**ked' to a team mate.

Still, if he stays injury free, 34 is not too old to play international rugby. What about Connacht's TOH at 15?

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Why doesn't Payne take a break then as he seems to be another odd man out in terms of the 'future' and in danger of joining his pals Healy and SOB on the dole queue before the next World Cup?

Payne = good solid player.  I've never said anything to criticise him when he was getting it in the neck from certain people some time ago.  I've always said that Payne at 13 was not to blame for any of our more disappointing results.  Unfortunately for me though, he's not nearly the essential x-Factor player - that needs to so bluntly push Zebo back to the sideline (a 'future' player that needs time to settle into a position).

So unfortunately for Payne and his age, maybe it's suddenly his time to do the cameos too - like increasingly is becoming the lot of Healy and SOB?

Payne at centre was forced through lack of viable options, and it is time to look to the future. That's should be happening, and should be seen to happening in games like yesterday. It didn't happen. I'm not arguing the case for Payne at centre. He has done a great job there, although limited by Schmidts defensive game plan. In a game as open as yesterdays we get to see more from him.
Sure, we can get rid of Payne altogether, but that would be nuts. He is bringing a huge amount to the team, in terms of experience, and why dismiss the best 15 in Ireland? Better to keep him, if we want to win games.
Zebo is the now, and possibly the future. How many years has Zebo been with us? How many caps? I like Zebo, and do think he had a great game yesterday, but against very weak opposition.

Zebo has 24 caps (21 starts). Since Earls has come back, Schmidt has not used him on the wing.

Zebo brings great confidence (and ability) which is severly lacking in the team. He is the only one who has a bit of spunk about him and we need that badly.

There are plenty of viable options for outside centre now (like Luke Marshall).

SecretFly wrote:34... O'Driscoll had been through two or three retirement phases by then, billy  When 30 hits you do begin to feel those hits more and feel the effort of getting into top gear more too.... just ask Heaslip!!!

I was laughing at the puff the game was taking out of him..and then delighted when the final whistle went, you could see him mouth 'I'm f**ked' to a team mate.

BOD survivied to the age he did by becoming an auxiliary flanker. I just don't see that in Payne's game.

As an attacking option from 15 then Zebo is definitely the man for the job but I have always been concerned about his defensive awareness (positioning) which I think will be shown against very good attacking sides.

I am happy for him to stay there and grow into the roll but I would have really liked to have seen Payne given a shot there as every time I have seen him play 15 for Ulster, he looks a class above.

eirebilly wrote:Still, if he stays injury free, 34 is not too old to play international rugby. What about Connacht's TOH at 15?

Lam's Connacht have a different philosophy (you are encouraged to give it a go). Schmidt has the opposite philosophy. Defence first. Carr made a huge mistake moving to Schmidt's Leinster. Schmidt just does not like flair players.

I should have added: TOH hasn't a hope.

Munchkin wrote:
Zebo is the now, and possibly the future. How many years has Zebo been with us? How many caps? I like Zebo, and do think he had a great game yesterday, but against very weak opposition.

Of course Italy were weak.  
That says nothing about what Ireland did.  Ireland might have scored close to or just over 20 and showed a determined slow paced menace in the middle of the field and undoubtedly some people would have called it a good win.  
That Ireland chose to do more than was needed, that they were merciless and ruthless in the pursuit of scores was the real story.  A change of philosophy over the last few season (possibly only the other most recent sign of it being the game last season against Scotland.  A desire to play rugby rather than push and drive a game through 80 minutes of 'safety first'.

So blaming Italy for yesterday is I feel a little too neat a call on it.  Ireland wanted to and did play a different game to what most observers were expecting.  You can choose to play that 'risk' game too against better sides.  And the returns might not be as great obviously...but you can decide to play it.  So what is best players to play such a game so that we get familiar playing it and therefore get Better playing it due to familiarity with the tempo and accuracy needed?

I don't think you truly feel Zebo has a big role in the future, Munch.  And that's fine - everyone has their own ideas on the future.  But I can't honestly agree with you that Payne is central to Ireland's continuing success into the rest of the season and beyond.  I have no problem with him staying put for the time being...even right up to the next WC... but saying he should keep a 'future' player away from necessary experience in a 15 position is running counter to your argument about the centres.

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Still, if he stays injury free, 34 is not too old to play international rugby. What about Connacht's TOH at 15?

Lam's Connacht have a different philosophy (you are encouraged to give it a go). Schmidt has the opposite philosophy. Defence first. Carr made a huge mistake moving to Schmidt's Leinster. Schmidt just does not like flair players.

I should have added: TOH hasn't a hope.

Is that why Zebo has been playing 15? Because the strongest parts of his game are defensive?

Engine#4 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Still, if he stays injury free, 34 is not too old to play international rugby. What about Connacht's TOH at 15?

Lam's Connacht have a different philosophy (you are encouraged to give it a go). Schmidt has the opposite philosophy. Defence first. Carr made a huge mistake moving to Schmidt's Leinster. Schmidt just does not like flair players.

I should have added: TOH hasn't a hope.

Is that why Zebo has been playing 15? Because the strongest parts of his game are defensive?

No. Because he keeps positive even though he is dropped frequently.

He is also lucky that he had a few caps before Schmidt came on the scene including a Lions call-up.

Hard to ignore.

Oh Dear...a Lions call up.....................

.... more past fun from the Zebo Era of intrigue and subterfuge.....

Sin é wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Still, if he stays injury free, 34 is not too old to play international rugby. What about Connacht's TOH at 15?

Lam's Connacht have a different philosophy (you are encouraged to give it a go). Schmidt has the opposite philosophy. Defence first. Carr made a huge mistake moving to Schmidt's Leinster. Schmidt just does not like flair players.

I should have added: TOH hasn't a hope.

Is that why Zebo has been playing 15? Because the strongest parts of his game are defensive?

No. Because he keeps positive even though he is dropped frequently.

He is also lucky that he had a few caps before Schmidt came on the scene including a Lions call-up.

Hard to ignore.

Yopu're just making stuff up ,you can't back any of that up.

Sin é wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Still, if he stays injury free, 34 is not too old to play international rugby. What about Connacht's TOH at 15?

Lam's Connacht have a different philosophy (you are encouraged to give it a go). Schmidt has the opposite philosophy. Defence first. Carr made a huge mistake moving to Schmidt's Leinster. Schmidt just does not like flair players.

I should have added: TOH hasn't a hope.

Is that why Zebo has been playing 15? Because the strongest parts of his game are defensive?

No. Because he keeps positive even though he is dropped frequently.

He is also lucky that he had a few caps before Schmidt came on the scene.

Just so I'm clear - Schmidt won't pick O'Halloran ever because he is a flair player.  So, to ensure defensive solidity, Schmidt instead picks a flair player with less experience at 15 than O'Halloran. A player whose defence is not considered to be quite as good as the injured first choice fullback who some consider to be a poor one-on-one tackler.  Well colour me confused!

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Why doesn't Payne take a break then as he seems to be another odd man out in terms of the 'future' and in danger of joining his pals Healy and SOB on the dole queue before the next World Cup?

Payne = good solid player.  I've never said anything to criticise him when he was getting it in the neck from certain people some time ago.  I've always said that Payne at 13 was not to blame for any of our more disappointing results.  Unfortunately for me though, he's not nearly the essential x-Factor player - that needs to so bluntly push Zebo back to the sideline (a 'future' player that needs time to settle into a position).

So unfortunately for Payne and his age, maybe it's suddenly his time to do the cameos too - like increasingly is becoming the lot of Healy and SOB?

Payne at centre was forced through lack of viable options, and it is time to look to the future. That's should be happening, and should be seen to happening in games like yesterday. It didn't happen. I'm not arguing the case for Payne at centre. He has done a great job there, although limited by Schmidts defensive game plan. In a game as open as yesterdays we get to see more from him.
Sure, we can get rid of Payne altogether, but that would be nuts. He is bringing a huge amount to the team, in terms of experience, and why dismiss the best 15 in Ireland? Better to keep him, if we want to win games.
Zebo is the now, and possibly the future. How many years has Zebo been with us? How many caps? I like Zebo, and do think he had a great game yesterday, but against very weak opposition.

The gameplan has changed and Payne has done well with it,we've been making linebreaks and creating chances,we still need Payne at 13 for his defensive solidity.Our defense was way too passive without him v England and we got hurt because of it,we had a really depleted front 5 v Wales and France but our defense was so much better that we were right in those games up to the last minute.

SecretFly wrote:Oh Dear...a Lions call up.....................

.... more past fun from the Zebo Era of intrigue and subterfuge.....

He has that experience that neither of TOH or Gilroy have.

Engine#4 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Still, if he stays injury free, 34 is not too old to play international rugby. What about Connacht's TOH at 15?

Lam's Connacht have a different philosophy (you are encouraged to give it a go). Schmidt has the opposite philosophy. Defence first. Carr made a huge mistake moving to Schmidt's Leinster. Schmidt just does not like flair players.

I should have added: TOH hasn't a hope.

Is that why Zebo has been playing 15? Because the strongest parts of his game are defensive?

No. Because he keeps positive even though he is dropped frequently.

He is also lucky that he had a few caps before Schmidt came on the scene.

Just so I'm clear - Schmidt won't pick O'Halloran ever because he is a flair player.  So, to ensure defensive solidity, Schmidt instead picks a flair player with less experience at 15 than O'Halloran. A player whose defence is not considered to be quite as good as the injured first choice fullback who some consider to be a poor one-on-one tackler.  Well colour me confused!

If you want to know what the man-robot Schmidt thinks of flair players go ask Carlos Spenser.

Peter Stringer wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Still, if he stays injury free, 34 is not too old to play international rugby. What about Connacht's TOH at 15?

Lam's Connacht have a different philosophy (you are encouraged to give it a go). Schmidt has the opposite philosophy. Defence first. Carr made a huge mistake moving to Schmidt's Leinster. Schmidt just does not like flair players.

I should have added: TOH hasn't a hope.

Is that why Zebo has been playing 15? Because the strongest parts of his game are defensive?

No. Because he keeps positive even though he is dropped frequently.

He is also lucky that he had a few caps before Schmidt came on the scene.

Just so I'm clear - Schmidt won't pick O'Halloran ever because he is a flair player.  So, to ensure defensive solidity, Schmidt instead picks a flair player with less experience at 15 than O'Halloran. A player whose defence is not considered to be quite as good as the injured first choice fullback who some consider to be a poor one-on-one tackler.  Well colour me confused!

If you want to know what the man-robot Schmidt thinks of flair players go ask Carlos Spenser.

Lol where have you been,you've been missed.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh Dear...a Lions call up.....................

.... more past fun from the Zebo Era of intrigue and subterfuge.....

He has that experience that neither of TOH or Gilroy have.

Ah yep.... and of course it's that very Lions call up that perhaps had something to do with Zebo having such a difficult first term or two with Schmidt......



But anyway, onwards..... Scotland look a side ready to push us all the way. So next week will require an Irish team ready to get emotionally hot. Time to bring all the armoury we have and that intensity of will was always one of the best aspects of Ireland when at their best. Beauty might be allowed in pieces but that game will require brute fight and the drive to push Scotland into the dirt - nothing less will do it. Scotland are on a high.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh Dear...a Lions call up.....................

.... more past fun from the Zebo Era of intrigue and subterfuge.....

He has that experience that neither of TOH or Gilroy have.

He does! Played well too, if memory serves...



...on the wing.

Looking forward immensely to next week. Not the two best teams this year but the two most attacking, could be a classic.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh Dear...a Lions call up.....................

.... more past fun from the Zebo Era of intrigue and subterfuge.....

He has that experience that neither of TOH or Gilroy have.

Ah yep.... and of course it's that very Lions call up that perhaps had something to do with Zebo having such a difficult first term or two with Schmidt......



But anyway, onwards..... Scotland look a side ready to push us all the way.  So next week will require an Irish team ready to get emotionally hot.  Time to bring all the armoury we have and that intensity of will was always one of the best aspects of Ireland when at their best.  Beauty might be allowed in pieces but that game will require brute fight and the drive to push Scotland into the dirt - nothing less will do it.  Scotland are on a high.

This is where we are under Schmidt, concerned that a team like Scotland might beat us. That is where he has set the bar. Utterly shameful

Engine#4 wrote:Looking forward immensely to next week.  Not the two best teams this year but the two most attacking, could be a classic.

If Ireland and Scotland both play like they did this weekend then it could be one hell of a match. Got a feeling that Scotland will be more confident after there win over France though.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Why doesn't Payne take a break then as he seems to be another odd man out in terms of the 'future' and in danger of joining his pals Healy and SOB on the dole queue before the next World Cup?

Payne = good solid player.  I've never said anything to criticise him when he was getting it in the neck from certain people some time ago.  I've always said that Payne at 13 was not to blame for any of our more disappointing results.  Unfortunately for me though, he's not nearly the essential x-Factor player - that needs to so bluntly push Zebo back to the sideline (a 'future' player that needs time to settle into a position).

So unfortunately for Payne and his age, maybe it's suddenly his time to do the cameos too - like increasingly is becoming the lot of Healy and SOB?

Payne at centre was forced through lack of viable options, and it is time to look to the future. That's should be happening, and should be seen to happening in games like yesterday. It didn't happen. I'm not arguing the case for Payne at centre. He has done a great job there, although limited by Schmidts defensive game plan. In a game as open as yesterdays we get to see more from him.
Sure, we can get rid of Payne altogether, but that would be nuts. He is bringing a huge amount to the team, in terms of experience, and why dismiss the best 15 in Ireland? Better to keep him, if we want to win games.
Zebo is the now, and possibly the future. How many years has Zebo been with us? How many caps? I like Zebo, and do think he had a great game yesterday, but against very weak opposition.

The gameplan has changed and Payne has done well with it,we've been making linebreaks and creating chances,we still need Payne at 13 for his defensive solidity.Our defense was way too passive without him v England and we got hurt because of it,we had a really depleted front 5 v Wales and France but our defense was so much better that we were right in those games up to the last minute.

.

You are right, he has changed the gameplan. We used to play boring, conservative but winning rugby that led to squeaking to joint top of the Six Nations table. Personally I don't count that as 'winning'. Now we play directionless losing rugby and are in a mini league with Scotland and Italy. We might top the losers competition I suppose.

At least under Kidney we played heads up rugby and won a Grand Slam. But I'm not rugby version of Oliver, waking up to Schmidt and saying 'please sir, can I have some more?' You can stick your your gruel. I'm hoping for peas, puddings and saveloys under the next Ireland coach, preferably someone who isn't a dictator like Kim Jong Schmidt.

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Who said Zebo wasn't part of the future?

Well he needs a position.  15 looks like one he could handle IF finally allowed time in one position as a Regular.

He's done the apprenticeship and has much to offer in attack.  Personally speaking, I don't think he'll find it on the wing but has promise at 15.

So... if he's part of the future why should he be dropped off the team one more time to push Payne back there?

He's got a position - Wing. Why use him at 15 when Payne is the form player there? Not that Zebo won't eventually make a great 15, none of us know, but we do know if Payne moves to 15, the better option right now, that allows McCloskey and Henshaw in the centre. Zebo moving there doesn't allow for that.

We don't know what Payne would be like at 15 internationally. Think he (like Rob) would be short on pace for starters.

You just can't beat pace.

You can't beat brains.

I've seen it frequently beaten by pace.

Peter Stringer wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh Dear...a Lions call up.....................

.... more past fun from the Zebo Era of intrigue and subterfuge.....

He has that experience that neither of TOH or Gilroy have.

Ah yep.... and of course it's that very Lions call up that perhaps had something to do with Zebo having such a difficult first term or two with Schmidt......



But anyway, onwards..... Scotland look a side ready to push us all the way.  So next week will require an Irish team ready to get emotionally hot.  Time to bring all the armoury we have and that intensity of will was always one of the best aspects of Ireland when at their best.  Beauty might be allowed in pieces but that game will require brute fight and the drive to push Scotland into the dirt - nothing less will do it.  Scotland are on a high.

This is where we are under Schmidt, concerned that a team like Scotland might beat us. That is where he has set the bar. Utterly shameful

Peter 'Chunky' Stringer?

Peter Stringer wrote:

At least under Kidney we played heads up rugby and won a Grand Slam. But I'm not rugby version of Oliver, waking up to Schmidt and saying 'please sir, can I have some more?' You can stick your your gruel. I'm hoping for peas, puddings and saveloys under the next Ireland coach, preferably someone who isn't a dictator like Kim Jong Schmidt.

How would you know? ...your head was always up the arse of the nearest scrumaging forward............ and I loved you for it............... em, platonically....


Anyway, maybe the heads kept rising up as they watched us drop, drop and drop down to 9th in the World.  When the top gets so far away, the heads have no choice but to look up at where it is.

SecretFly wrote:

Peter Stringer wrote:

At least under Kidney we played heads up rugby and won a Grand Slam. But I'm not rugby version of Oliver, waking up to Schmidt and saying 'please sir, can I have some more?' You can stick your your gruel. I'm hoping for peas, puddings and saveloys under the next Ireland coach, preferably someone who isn't a dictator like Kim Jong Schmidt.

How would you know? ...your head was always up the arse of the nearest scrumaging forward............ and I loved you for it............... em, platonically....


Anyway, maybe the heads kept rising up as they watched us drop, drop and drop down to 9th in the World.  When the top gets so far away, the heads have no choice but to look up at where it is.

What's Irelands ranking now?

If we're 9th again, billy - I'll be pleased we got to it quicker under Joe than under Decco Faster rugby all round......

I think after the weekends results Ireland are 8th but a loss to Scotland next week will see Ireland drop to 9th. Someone with a better handling of the ranking point system could probably work it out, that was just a loose calculation in my head.

Peter Stringer wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh Dear...a Lions call up.....................

.... more past fun from the Zebo Era of intrigue and subterfuge.....

He has that experience that neither of TOH or Gilroy have.

Ah yep.... and of course it's that very Lions call up that perhaps had something to do with Zebo having such a difficult first term or two with Schmidt......



But anyway, onwards..... Scotland look a side ready to push us all the way.  So next week will require an Irish team ready to get emotionally hot.  Time to bring all the armoury we have and that intensity of will was always one of the best aspects of Ireland when at their best.  Beauty might be allowed in pieces but that game will require brute fight and the drive to push Scotland into the dirt - nothing less will do it.  Scotland are on a high.

This is where we are under Schmidt, concerned that a team like Scotland might beat us. That is where he has set the bar. Utterly shameful

"a team like Scotland". Now what sort of team might that be, Mr Stringer?

Peter Stringer wrote:

At least under Kidney we played heads up rugby and won a Grand Slam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6ytZ77KaFU

Ah yes, the last time Ireland played "heads up rugby". Coincidentally the last time Scotland beat Ireland. Coincidentally the last time ROG played for Ireland. Kidney didn't seem to appreciate the best intentions of one of our greatest ever.

eirebilly wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:Looking forward immensely to next week.  Not the two best teams this year but the two most attacking, could be a classic.

If Ireland and Scotland both play like they did this weekend then it could be one hell of a match. Got a feeling that Scotland will be more confident after there win over France though.

True enough, they beat them. We did not. Having Ross back to hold the scrum makes a huge difference for us though.

George Carlin wrote:

Peter Stringer wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh Dear...a Lions call up.....................

.... more past fun from the Zebo Era of intrigue and subterfuge.....

He has that experience that neither of TOH or Gilroy have.

Ah yep.... and of course it's that very Lions call up that perhaps had something to do with Zebo having such a difficult first term or two with Schmidt......



But anyway, onwards..... Scotland look a side ready to push us all the way.  So next week will require an Irish team ready to get emotionally hot.  Time to bring all the armoury we have and that intensity of will was always one of the best aspects of Ireland when at their best.  Beauty might be allowed in pieces but that game will require brute fight and the drive to push Scotland into the dirt - nothing less will do it.  Scotland are on a high.

This is where we are under Schmidt, concerned that a team like Scotland might beat us. That is where he has set the bar. Utterly shameful

"a team like Scotland". Now what sort of team might that be, Mr Stringer?

The one we is gonna marmalise next week George?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:No way is Zebo only a wing.  I see Zebo getting more opportunity to be 'Zebo' at 15 than on the wing.  The wing is too slim a line for him waiting for others to start the creative process.
But still...the truth is he's 25 and Payne is 30.  The WC is 4 years away.  The WC will need once again, the pace and vigour of youth to cut anything positive from it.

Payne won't be with Ireland for the next RWC, but neither will Best, SOB, Healy, Trimble and so on. It's about trying to win games now, and bring the young blood through at the same time. It is a balance, but the argument now is that some form players, those viewed as the future for Ireland, are not being given a fair chance. Do you think we would have lost to Italy playing Payne at FB, with McCloskey at Centre? or Henshaw at FB, with Payne at centre? We wouldn't have lost.

Healy and SoB will be at the next WC injuries and form permitting.

Why use Payne at FB if he doesn't plan to use him there long term,same thing with Henshaw.I can see an argument for McCloskey starting ahead of Henshaw for sure.

You're an incredible optimist if you think Healy and SOB will represent Ireland in the next world cup, although you provide the caveat of injury and form.

The reason for Payne at FB, is that Payne is the form player in Ireland, at the moment. Henshaw isn't a 12, and there's a sense that we are not getting the best of him in that position, so should either switch to 13, or 15. If Ireland were to use players in possibly the best positions, we would likely see Payne at 15, McCloskey at 12 and Hendhaw at 13. If we played our form players, we would also see Jackson ahead of Madigan.

Why,BoD and PoC went through injury ravaged stages of their careers where they were off form and most people thought they were finished,both came back to have Indian Summers.I see no reason Healy and SoB can't do the same,obviously there is a non 0% chance they won't but there is no reason to write them off.

Payne at FB isn't going to happen at all imo,the only chance is if Farrell can get Henshaw to lead the defense from 13 in the same way Payne can.People can give out about prioritising defense over attack but then complain about our defense being too passive when he isn't there.I'd agree with Jackson ahead of Madigan for sure,I'd also like to see Furlong ahead of White and Marmion to take possession of the backup SH role.

And BOD remained past his 'sell by' date. Look at them both, Healy and SOB, and try and tell me, with a straight face, that you really believe they will both be there for the next WRC...

I agree with you on Paynes defence. He's great, no doubt, but do we want to move from where we are now, into more attacking play? Can we do that with Payne at centre? Actually, I think we probably can, but then Payne won't be there for the next world cup. Moving Payne to FB in some games, like against the Italians, will allow us to give game time to young prospects, like McCloskey. Yesterdays game was ripe for that, and it's a missed chance, in my view, The same with Jackson. These are vital positions for us to fill, and prepare guys for. I also agree on Marmion, and he wouldn't have got his chance yesterday, but for injury.

When are our young hopefuls to get that game time? Against SA? Against the AB? or do we wait until injury forces their inclusion in the next 6N's? Windows of opportunity are so slim, and yesterday was a wasted opportunity.

Munchkin wrote: Yesterdays game was ripe for that, and it's a missed chance, in my view, The same with Jackson. These are vital positions for us to fill, and prepare guys for. I also agree on Marmion, and he wouldn't have got his chance yesterday, but for injury.

When are our young hopefuls to get that game time? Against SA? Against the AB? or do we wait until injury forces their inclusion in the next 6N's? Windows of opportunity are so slim, and yesterday was a wasted opportunity.

My thoughts exactly, it really does feel like a lost chance. I seriously cant see certain players playing against SA or the AB's unless injury so days like yesterdays were the appropriate times.

Munchkin wrote:


And BOD remained past his 'sell by' date. Look at them both, Healy and SOB, and try and tell me, with a straight face, that you really believe they will both be there for the next WRC...

I agree with you on Paynes defence. He's great, no doubt, but do we want to move from where we are now, into more attacking play? Can we do that with Payne at centre? Actually, I think we probably can, but then Payne won't be there for the next world cup. Moving Payne to FB in some games, like against the Italians, will allow us to give game time to young prospects, like McCloskey. Yesterdays game was ripe for that, and it's a missed chance, in my view, The same with Jackson. These are vital positions for us to fill, and prepare guys for. I also agree on Marmion, and he wouldn't have got his chance yesterday, but for injury.

When are our young hopefuls to get that game time? Against SA? Against the AB? or do we wait until injury forces their inclusion in the next 6N's? Windows of opportunity are so slim, and yesterday was a wasted opportunity.

BoD came back and basically dragged the team to a GS on his own,won 3 HC's a Pro 12 and 2 6N's.That's not bad for a guy who was past it.

I can absolutely say I expect both of them to make it bar some unforseen injury or massive dip in form, I 100% believe they'll both be important parts if the squad for the next 4 or 5 years.I really don't see why not,SoB especially has been in good form this year and it's not like either of them have a consistent problem with one injury.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Why doesn't Payne take a break then as he seems to be another odd man out in terms of the 'future' and in danger of joining his pals Healy and SOB on the dole queue before the next World Cup?

Payne = good solid player.  I've never said anything to criticise him when he was getting it in the neck from certain people some time ago.  I've always said that Payne at 13 was not to blame for any of our more disappointing results.  Unfortunately for me though, he's not nearly the essential x-Factor player - that needs to so bluntly push Zebo back to the sideline (a 'future' player that needs time to settle into a position).

So unfortunately for Payne and his age, maybe it's suddenly his time to do the cameos too - like increasingly is becoming the lot of Healy and SOB?

Payne at centre was forced through lack of viable options, and it is time to look to the future. That's should be happening, and should be seen to happening in games like yesterday. It didn't happen. I'm not arguing the case for Payne at centre. He has done a great job there, although limited by Schmidts defensive game plan. In a game as open as yesterdays we get to see more from him.
Sure, we can get rid of Payne altogether, but that would be nuts. He is bringing a huge amount to the team, in terms of experience, and why dismiss the best 15 in Ireland? Better to keep him, if we want to win games.
Zebo is the now, and possibly the future. How many years has Zebo been with us? How many caps? I like Zebo, and do think he had a great game yesterday, but against very weak opposition.

The gameplan has changed and Payne has done well with it,we've been making linebreaks and creating chances,we still need Payne at 13 for his defensive solidity.Our defense was way too passive without him v England and we got hurt because of it,we had a really depleted front 5 v Wales and France but our defense was so much better that we were right in those games up to the last minute.

There is a problem with the defence. Its way too narrow.

How did belham do?

Sin é wrote:

There is a problem with the defence. Its way too narrow.

Yep and without Payne it's narrow and passive.We can just about get away with one but both are a killer.The hope is that Farrell sorts out the defense and Easterby can focus on the lineout and maul again as they have both regressed since he's been working with Schmidt on the defense.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Munchkin wrote:


And BOD remained past his 'sell by' date. Look at them both, Healy and SOB, and try and tell me, with a straight face, that you really believe they will both be there for the next WRC...

I agree with you on Paynes defence. He's great, no doubt, but do we want to move from where we are now, into more attacking play? Can we do that with Payne at centre? Actually, I think we probably can, but then Payne won't be there for the next world cup. Moving Payne to FB in some games, like against the Italians, will allow us to give game time to young prospects, like McCloskey. Yesterdays game was ripe for that, and it's a missed chance, in my view, The same with Jackson. These are vital positions for us to fill, and prepare guys for. I also agree on Marmion, and he wouldn't have got his chance yesterday, but for injury.

When are our young hopefuls to get that game time? Against SA? Against the AB? or do we wait until injury forces their inclusion in the next 6N's? Windows of opportunity are so slim, and yesterday was a wasted opportunity.

BoD came back and basically dragged the team to a GS on his own,won 3 HC's a Pro 12 and 2 6N's.That's not bad for a guy who was past it.

I can absolutely say I expect both of them to make it bar some unforseen injury or massive dip in form, I 100% believe they'll both be important parts if the squad for the next 4 or 5 years.I really don't see why not,SoB especially has been in good form this year and it's not like either of them have a consistent problem with one injury.

2009 was by far BOD best season in a long time. It took Kidney to get the best out of him. Since then, he has been hanging in there. Joe would not have had back-to-back championships without Paul O'Connell.

You're a slave driver Sin.. Paulie gotta retire sometime!!! Let him have his rest damn it!

Sin é wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Munchkin wrote:


And BOD remained past his 'sell by' date. Look at them both, Healy and SOB, and try and tell me, with a straight face, that you really believe they will both be there for the next WRC...

I agree with you on Paynes defence. He's great, no doubt, but do we want to move from where we are now, into more attacking play? Can we do that with Payne at centre? Actually, I think we probably can, but then Payne won't be there for the next world cup. Moving Payne to FB in some games, like against the Italians, will allow us to give game time to young prospects, like McCloskey. Yesterdays game was ripe for that, and it's a missed chance, in my view, The same with Jackson. These are vital positions for us to fill, and prepare guys for. I also agree on Marmion, and he wouldn't have got his chance yesterday, but for injury.

When are our young hopefuls to get that game time? Against SA? Against the AB? or do we wait until injury forces their inclusion in the next 6N's? Windows of opportunity are so slim, and yesterday was a wasted opportunity.

BoD came back and basically dragged the team to a GS on his own,won 3 HC's a Pro 12 and 2 6N's.That's not bad for a guy who was past it.

I can absolutely say I expect both of them to make it bar some unforseen injury or massive dip in form, I 100% believe they'll both be important parts if the squad for the next 4 or 5 years.I really don't see why not,SoB especially has been in good form this year and it's not like either of them have a consistent problem with one injury.

2009 was by far BOD best season in a long time. It took Kidney to get the best out of him. Since then, he has been hanging in there. Joe would not have had back-to-back championships without Paul O'Connell.

Logic failure!

Did it take Schmidt to get the best out of PoC?

Would DK have a Slam without BoD?

How long is a piece of string?