6N 2016: Wales vs Italy - Super Saturday

First topic message reminder :

Here we go again. Big win for Wales please, and then back to the drawing board.

Saturday, 19 March
Wales v Italy (Principality Stadium, 14:30 GMT)

Wales

Liam Williams; George North, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Hallam Amos; Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb; Rob Evans, Scott Baldwin, Samson Lee; Bradley Davies, Luke Charteris; Dan Lydiate (C), Justin Tipuric, Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Tomas Francis*, Jake Ball, Ross Moriarty, Gareth Davies, Rhys Priestland, Gareth Anscombe.

*Francis is pending disciplinary action, Jarvis is on standby.


Italy

TBC

PotNoodleMiner wrote:Tipuric has never looked too small for an international openside to me in the 40+ games hes played and considering hes actually bigger than the likes of Michael Hooper says it all

Fair enough, maybe I mean power which is different. Or perhaps technique? He just doesn't seem to boss the breakdown like a top open side. To me any way. Gethin Jenkins seems more effective in the tackle area (another example of a player whose secondary skills are better than then primary ones he needs for his position (i.e. scrummaging)).

Griff wrote:

PotNoodleMiner wrote:Tipuric has never looked too small for an international openside to me in the 40+ games hes played and considering hes actually bigger than the likes of Michael Hooper says it all

Fair enough, maybe I mean power which is different.  Or perhaps technique?  He just doesn't seem to boss the breakdown like a top open side.  To me any way.  Gethin Jenkins seems more effective in the tackle area (another example of a player whose secondary skills are better than then primary ones he needs for his position (i.e. scrummaging)).

It would help if he was paired with a genuine blindside, rather than an openside shifted to blindside just so he's on the field (despite not being 100%, by his own admission).

That's got me thinking: when was the last time Tipuric played with Lydiate at Test level? Has it ever happened?

LP, against Ireland in Dublin (RWC warm-up).

This game should really suit Tipuric. He's got Lydiate and Faletau to do all the grunt work so that he can get into the wider channels and show off his undoubtedly strong footballing skillset. He should get his hand on the ball a fair bit and I'd expect him to make the most of it.

I'd still have put James Davies on the bench though. I think he could really be something special at international level.

For me, Navidi is next in line, and then James Davies.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Griff wrote:

PotNoodleMiner wrote:Tipuric has never looked too small for an international openside to me in the 40+ games hes played and considering hes actually bigger than the likes of Michael Hooper says it all

Fair enough, maybe I mean power which is different.  Or perhaps technique?  He just doesn't seem to boss the breakdown like a top open side.  To me any way.  Gethin Jenkins seems more effective in the tackle area (another example of a player whose secondary skills are better than then primary ones he needs for his position (i.e. scrummaging)).

It would help if he was paired with a genuine blindside, rather than an openside shifted to blindside just so he's on the field (despite not being 100%, by his own admission).

That's got me thinking: when was the last time Tipuric played with Lydiate at Test level? Has it ever happened?

That's a good point LP. Two 7's doesn't usually work too well for us. Will be good to have a proper look at him alongside a proper 6. I sounded harsh reading back. He does some thing very well. And he's not the only one in the team for footballing skills over some other fundamental ones (again, just my opinion). Hope I'm proved wrong.

I've said for a while that it doesn't seem like Tips is as good as Warbs in what is meant to be their primary role. The guy turns up near the wing and puts in a pop-pass and everyone is raving about it - it just goes to show how dim-witted some fans are. That said I think he'll play well against Italy, I expect Webb will be having a good game too.

mikey_dragon wrote:LP, against Ireland in Dublin (RWC warm-up).

And wouldn't you know it, he put in a man-of-the-match performance!

mikey_dragon wrote:I've said for a while that it doesn't seem like Tips is as good as Warbs in what is meant to be their primary role. The guy turns up near the wing and puts in a pop-pass and everyone is raving about it - it just goes to show how dim-witted some fans are. That said I think he'll play well against Italy, I expect Webb will be having a good game too.

This is sort of what I was getting at. The flashy stuff looks great, but is that to the detriment of the hard graft? If he's on the wing then he probably wasn't in the preceding ruck!

LP yeah he did play well. I don't really think he's that consistent though. I don't tend to notice him often when he comes onto the field. Whether that's a good or bad thing, you decide.

mikey_dragon,

I take issue with the selection in your original post. Your players from 1-15 are a good side, but the picture above it is in my view a bad choice. I think either of the K/Catherine's - Jenkins or Zeta Jones - should be there. Instead, we seem to have yet another example of Wales selecting on sheer size, rather than more subtle talent.

(PS: good luck for Saturday to all our Welsh friends. Can we please have an exhibition of the kind of flowing rugby you guys can produce that is guaranteed to warm the heart of any genuine rugby fan? Something like the last ten last Saturday would be very nice to watch.)

What has Ken Owens got to do to get a start? I thought he looked excellent against England when he came on, and Baldwin wasn't having a good game

I always thought Tipuric would make a great centre, maybe not as daft as it sounds ...

SimonofSurrey wrote:mikey_dragon,

I take issue with the selection in your original post. Your players from 1-15 are a good side, but the picture above it is in my view a bad choice. I think either of the K/Catherine's - Jenkins or Zeta Jones - should be there. Instead, we seem to have yet another example of Wales selecting on sheer size, rather than more subtle talent.

(PS: good luck for Saturday to all our Welsh friends. Can we please have an exhibition of the kind of flowing rugby you guys can produce that is guaranteed to warm the heart of any genuine rugby fan? Something like the last ten last Saturday would be very nice to watch.)

I was inspired by GC, and I think he's used Jones and Jenkins in the past. So I went for Imogen - she may not be an A lister but Madame Thomas is certainly one of the fittest Welsh girls I've seen on TV!

At one level the team is hard to criticise as a team but Baldwin and Biggar should have been stood down as Owens deserves his place on form alone and Biggar is not the same player we saw in the WC.Discovering AWJ has been only 80% fit when picked for the entire 6 Nations beggars belief and yet another example of the curious approach to the players by the Welsh management.Smacks of disrespect for the opposition.The game on Saturday was an opportunity to try out different and as yet untried combinations with the NZ tour on the horizon.Clearly Gats sees second place as desirable but I prefer that old adage "Second place is just the first place loser".Performance on Saturday needs to be stellar to convince me that Gats' boat isn't heading for an iceberg.

mikey_dragon wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote:mikey_dragon,

I take issue with the selection in your original post. Your players from 1-15 are a good side, but the picture above it is in my view a bad choice. I think either of the K/Catherine's - Jenkins or Zeta Jones - should be there. Instead, we seem to have yet another example of Wales selecting on sheer size, rather than more subtle talent.

(PS: good luck for Saturday to all our Welsh friends. Can we please have an exhibition of the kind of flowing rugby you guys can produce that is guaranteed to warm the heart of any genuine rugby fan? Something like the last ten last Saturday would be very nice to watch.)

I was inspired by GC, and I think he's used Jones and Jenkins in the past. So I went for Imogen - she may not be an A lister but Madame Thomas is certainly one of the fittest Welsh girls I've seen on TV!

Cheers, mikey. God knows these Boards need an all too rare Anglo-Welsh laugh so well done for responding in kind. Best again for Saturday - if we both get thumping wins the world will look a much nicer place next Sunday.

Is it not going to be frustrating to see Wales play like they did in the last 15 minutes or so against England and put 50+ points past Italy?  They have shown they can play rugby when allowed to, it is just that Gatland seems intent on playing safety first rugby all the time and not taking risks.  The second issue I have with Gatland is his conservative player selection.  The Welsh second rows on Saturday were aged 33, 29 and 29.  the English locks were aged 21, 26 and 24.  The Welsh second rows have probably peaked in paying terms and are at best on a plateau and at worst on the downward slope.  The English players should be getting better with extra experience and maturity.

With Gatland it always seems to be about winning the next game at all costs, with no thought to progression or the longer term picture.  I appreciate 4 games into Eddie Jones's reign it is not possible to say that he will have a long term transformational effect on England, but it is safe to say after 87 odd matches in charge of Wales that they are never going to get above being at 4th, 5th, 6th ranked team in the world under Gatland.

mikey_dragon wrote:LP, against Ireland in Dublin (RWC warm-up).

Man of the match that day too right?

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:LP, against Ireland in Dublin (RWC warm-up).

Man of the match that day too right?

Cuthbert has had a few man of the matches mind!

nlpnlp wrote:Is it not going to be frustrating to see Wales play like they did in the last 15 minutes or so against England and put 50+ points past Italy?  They have shown they can play rugby when allowed to, it is just that Gatland seems intent on playing safety first rugby all the time and not taking risks.  The second issue I have with Gatland is his conservative player selection.  The Welsh second rows on Saturday were aged 33, 29 and 29.  the English locks were aged 21, 26 and 24.  The Welsh second rows have probably peaked in paying terms and are at best on a plateau and at worst on the downward slope.  The English players should be getting better with extra experience and maturity.

With Gatland it always seems to be about winning the next game at all costs, with no thought to progression or the longer term picture.  I appreciate 4 games into Eddie Jones's reign it is not possible to say that he will have a long term transformational effect on England, but it is safe to say after 87 odd matches in charge of Wales that they are never going to get above being at 4th, 5th, 6th ranked team in the world under Gatland.

I think this is all going to come down to the outcome of the NZ tour.If(and it's a blydi huge if) Wales win 1 or 2 Tests there might be grounds for optimism moving forward and Gatland could well be in pole position for the Lions tour in 2017.A test series hammering and Gats with his minions and several senior players could well be on their way.Btw,playing NZ where aspirant All Blacks have it all to prove could be a right old salutary experience.I'm really worried about us in NZ because I thought England played very well on their last tour to NZ and still lost 3-0.It took NZ about 60 minutes to work out England's power game and counteract it.We don't have a power game.

We can't come anywhere close to beating NZ at home. How on earth are we going to get a win out there?!!!

Griff wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:LP, against Ireland in Dublin (RWC warm-up).

Man of the match that day too right?

Cuthbert has had a few man of the matches mind!

I don't think an Welsh rugby afficionado could really compare Tipuric and Cuthbert in the same light on current form.

Even at his very best, Cuthbert it nowhere near the quality of Tips

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:LP, against Ireland in Dublin (RWC warm-up).

Man of the match that day too right?

If you're trying to be clever then you've come across as opposite to that, because it seems like you've completely overlooked my discussion with LP and Griff. I've said elsewhere that I don't think he's a great impact player and has only ever played very well once or twice when selected as a starter. I've also said that I expect him to play well this weekend, bearing in mind we're playing the wooden spooners.

maestegmafia wrote:

Griff wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:LP, against Ireland in Dublin (RWC warm-up).

Man of the match that day too right?

Cuthbert has had a few man of the matches mind!

I don't think an Welsh rugby afficionado could really compare Tipuric and Cuthbert in the same light on current form.

Even at his very best, Cuthbert it nowhere near the quality of Tips

I'm not comparing them to each other. Just saying that MOTM in the past doesn't mean the players are currently sh*t hot! Cuthbert used to be good for Wales a few years back too, IMO (I know some will say he was never good!). But form has dipped massively. I'm wondering if Tipuric's honeymoon period has passed too and now he's not as effective.

I'm happy to be proven wrong, and will be over the moon if Tips does have a man of the match performance. Italy is the sort of game that may make him look great as they tend to be weaker than other 6N teams across the pitch (but perhaps previously not bad in the scrum). But I'm not sure he's the sort of 7 we need, or that excels, against the big guns.

Griff wrote:We can't come anywhere close to beating NZ. How on earth are we going to get a win out there?!!!

Because despite all evidence to the contrary I start watching every Welsh game with huge expectation and even greater hope that the team will play to their full potential for 80 minutes.If an army of monkeys can given time write the works of Shakespeare then Gats and his minions can one day get the best out of our golden generation.Have to believe that or what's the point? The best saying i've heard on overcoming the odds is "Persistence can change failure into extraordinary achievement".

exile jack wrote:

Griff wrote:We can't come anywhere close to beating NZ. How on earth are we going to get a win out there?!!!

Because despite all evidence to the contrary I start watching every Welsh game with huge expectation and even greater hope that the team will play to their full potential for 80 minutes.If an army of monkeys can given time write the works of Shakespeare then Gats and his minions can one day get the best out of our golden generation.Have to believe that or what's the point? The best saying i've heard on overcoming the odds is "Persistence can change failure into extraordinary achievement".

I completely agree with you in theory. It's just that with rugby the way it is, with home advantage being so big in rugby, it seems logical that we need to start beating them at home if we are to be able to beat them away. As sort of a gauge of being able to do it. Unless we fluke a win out there somehow. But I've seen nothing from us that would suggest we can challenge out there. Look at the AB's record at home. Very few teams can get a win out there. Why will we when we can just about draw with Ireland, struggle against Scotland at home for large periods, not do too well against a poor France, and get humped for 60 mins against England? So that's where my point came from. It seems unfeasible that we can go out there and beat the world champions when we can't beat them at home where, like most teams, we are better. It doesn't alter the ambition to do well and to strive to better ourselves constantly. That should always be the aim, as you say. But you talk of '1 or 2 wins' out there when zero is the overwhelming likelihood, unfortunately. I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise. You're talking about this team, the one that's stuttering and struggling, going and making Welsh history by being the first Welsh team EVER to win in NZ. And against an NZ team who are current and recent world champions? 1st in the world vs (not sure what we are now) 5th or 6th?! And perhaps do it twice! I'd love to be that optimistic but I just can't be. Unfortunately.

Griff wrote:

exile jack wrote:

Griff wrote:We can't come anywhere close to beating NZ. How on earth are we going to get a win out there?!!!

Because despite all evidence to the contrary I start watching every Welsh game with huge expectation and even greater hope that the team will play to their full potential for 80 minutes.If an army of monkeys can given time write the works of Shakespeare then Gats and his minions can one day get the best out of our golden generation.Have to believe that or what's the point? The best saying i've heard on overcoming the odds is "Persistence can change failure into extraordinary achievement".

I completely agree with you in theory. It's just that with rugby the way it is, with home advantage being so big in rugby, it seems logical that we need to start beating them at home if we are to be able to beat them away. As sort of a gauge of being able to do it. Unless we fluke a win out there somehow. But I've seen nothing from us that would suggest we can challenge out there. Look at the AB's record at home. Very few teams can get a win out there. Why will we when we can just about draw with Ireland, struggle against Scotland at home for large periods, not do too well against a poor France, and get humped for 60 mins against England? So that's where my point came from. It seems unfeasible that we can go out there and beat the world champions when we can't beat them at home where, like most teams, we are better. It doesn't alter the ambition to do well and to strive to better ourselves constantly. That should always be the aim, as you say. But you talk of '1 or 2 wins' out there when zero is the overwhelming likelihood, unfortunately. I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise. You're talking about this team, the one that's stuttering and struggling, going and making Welsh history by being the first Welsh team EVER to win in NZ. And against an NZ team who are current and recent world champions? 1st in the world vs (not sure what we are now) 5th or 6th?! And perhaps do it twice! I'd love to be that optimistic but I just can't be. Unfortunately.

Griff,my son's girlfriend is a New Zealander so I am getting a right earful on the global supremacy of All Blacks rugby.I can no longer reply with the 'chokers' tag since they won the WC,more's the pity.i tell her that the greater the obstacle,the more glory in overcoming it.I am going to continue to dream the impossible dream but last Saturday did rather puncture my incurable optimism.In Gats and his world class coaching team we trust!!

Btw,i love Justin P as a player but I see the O's playing a different way to Wales and getting the best out of him as a result.Wales don't play fast enough for him whereas Nugget had the benefit of a faster style of Welsh play.One of the problems with Warrenball currently is that Warbs' form is inconsistent game to game,but Tips is not a natural replacement for him in the current gameplan.That's why the Italy game is a wasted opportunity.

exile jack wrote:

Griff wrote:

exile jack wrote:

Griff wrote:We can't come anywhere close to beating NZ. How on earth are we going to get a win out there?!!!

Because despite all evidence to the contrary I start watching every Welsh game with huge expectation and even greater hope that the team will play to their full potential for 80 minutes.If an army of monkeys can given time write the works of Shakespeare then Gats and his minions can one day get the best out of our golden generation.Have to believe that or what's the point? The best saying i've heard on overcoming the odds is "Persistence can change failure into extraordinary achievement".

I completely agree with you in theory. It's just that with rugby the way it is, with home advantage being so big in rugby, it seems logical that we need to start beating them at home if we are to be able to beat them away. As sort of a gauge of being able to do it. Unless we fluke a win out there somehow. But I've seen nothing from us that would suggest we can challenge out there. Look at the AB's record at home. Very few teams can get a win out there. Why will we when we can just about draw with Ireland, struggle against Scotland at home for large periods, not do too well against a poor France, and get humped for 60 mins against England? So that's where my point came from. It seems unfeasible that we can go out there and beat the world champions when we can't beat them at home where, like most teams, we are better. It doesn't alter the ambition to do well and to strive to better ourselves constantly. That should always be the aim, as you say. But you talk of '1 or 2 wins' out there when zero is the overwhelming likelihood, unfortunately. I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise. You're talking about this team, the one that's stuttering and struggling, going and making Welsh history by being the first Welsh team EVER to win in NZ. And against an NZ team who are current and recent world champions? 1st in the world vs (not sure what we are now) 5th or 6th?! And perhaps do it twice! I'd love to be that optimistic but I just can't be. Unfortunately.

Griff,my son's girlfriend is a New Zealander so I am getting a right earful on the global supremacy of All Blacks rugby.I can no longer reply with the 'chokers' tag since they won the WC,more's the pity.i tell her that the greater the obstacle,the more glory in overcoming it.I am going to continue to dream the impossible dream but last Saturday did rather puncture my incurable optimism.In Gats and his world class coaching team we trust!!

Btw,i love Justin P as a player but I see the O's playing a different way to Wales and getting the best out of him as a result.Wales don't play fast enough for him whereas Nugget had the benefit of a faster style of Welsh play.One of the problems with Warrenball currently is that Warbs' form is inconsistent game to game,but Tips is not a natural replacement for him in the current gameplan.That's why the Italy game is a wasted opportunity.

They made a $400,000 loss this year - they shouldn't be too smug.

exile jack wrote:

Griff wrote:

exile jack wrote:

Griff wrote:We can't come anywhere close to beating NZ. How on earth are we going to get a win out there?!!!

Because despite all evidence to the contrary I start watching every Welsh game with huge expectation and even greater hope that the team will play to their full potential for 80 minutes.If an army of monkeys can given time write the works of Shakespeare then Gats and his minions can one day get the best out of our golden generation.Have to believe that or what's the point? The best saying i've heard on overcoming the odds is "Persistence can change failure into extraordinary achievement".

I completely agree with you in theory. It's just that with rugby the way it is, with home advantage being so big in rugby, it seems logical that we need to start beating them at home if we are to be able to beat them away. As sort of a gauge of being able to do it. Unless we fluke a win out there somehow. But I've seen nothing from us that would suggest we can challenge out there. Look at the AB's record at home. Very few teams can get a win out there. Why will we when we can just about draw with Ireland, struggle against Scotland at home for large periods, not do too well against a poor France, and get humped for 60 mins against England? So that's where my point came from. It seems unfeasible that we can go out there and beat the world champions when we can't beat them at home where, like most teams, we are better. It doesn't alter the ambition to do well and to strive to better ourselves constantly. That should always be the aim, as you say. But you talk of '1 or 2 wins' out there when zero is the overwhelming likelihood, unfortunately. I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise. You're talking about this team, the one that's stuttering and struggling, going and making Welsh history by being the first Welsh team EVER to win in NZ. And against an NZ team who are current and recent world champions? 1st in the world vs (not sure what we are now) 5th or 6th?! And perhaps do it twice! I'd love to be that optimistic but I just can't be. Unfortunately.

Griff,my son's girlfriend is a New Zealander so I am getting a right earful on the global supremacy of All Blacks rugby.I can no longer reply with the 'chokers' tag since they won the WC,more's the pity.i tell her that the greater the obstacle,the more glory in overcoming it.I am going to continue to dream the impossible dream but last Saturday did rather puncture my incurable optimism.In Gats and his world class coaching team we trust!!

Btw,i love Justin P as a player but I see the O's playing a different way to Wales and getting the best out of him as a result.Wales don't play fast enough for him whereas Nugget had the benefit of a faster style of Welsh play.One of the problems with Warrenball currently is that Warbs' form is inconsistent game to game,but Tips is not a natural replacement for him in the current gameplan.That's why the Italy game is a wasted opportunity.

Very good point Exile Jack. Yes, the gameplan is not one for Tips perhaps. That comes to the fore when we're attacking. A faster game would suit him better. It is in defence though that the gameplan isn't to blame, I feel. I know you can have a defensive gameplan too, but when defending we're generally at the mercy of the other team's gameplan and how they attack. It is here that I feel tips isn't 'combative' enough for the international game. He's sort of blown off the rucks so his turnovers are few and the oppo get a lot of quick ball. I'm not an advocate for 15 massive guys in our team. On the contrary, I yearn for the old days of small lightening wingers and big fat slow props. THAT was when we had exciting rugby, with mismatches galore, a sport for all, etc! But I like a bit of size and power in my flanker, so to speak. I basically want Wales to have a Pocock instead, I think! Don't we all...

Has Jarvis been added to the squad?

With Francis banned yes he would have been.

mikey_dragon wrote:With Francis banned yes he would have been.

Just not seen anything reported yet, let's hope it doesn't come to us having to rely on him coming off then bench then.

If he's good enough for Clermont...!

munkian wrote:

They made a $400,000 loss this year - they shouldn't be too smug.

Of course their reasoning for the loss was that they had to go do their highly marketable bit to keep rugby interesting and profitable elsewhere, as they were duty bound to win a WC when they could have been having profitable friendlies instead.

I think they're right too. They should have been allowed miss the pool stages of the WC and get back in time for the final half of the Final......

Griff wrote:

exile jack wrote:

Griff wrote:

exile jack wrote:

Griff wrote:We can't come anywhere close to beating NZ. How on earth are we going to get a win out there?!!!

Because despite all evidence to the contrary I start watching every Welsh game with huge expectation and even greater hope that the team will play to their full potential for 80 minutes.If an army of monkeys can given time write the works of Shakespeare then Gats and his minions can one day get the best out of our golden generation.Have to believe that or what's the point? The best saying i've heard on overcoming the odds is "Persistence can change failure into extraordinary achievement".

I completely agree with you in theory. It's just that with rugby the way it is, with home advantage being so big in rugby, it seems logical that we need to start beating them at home if we are to be able to beat them away. As sort of a gauge of being able to do it. Unless we fluke a win out there somehow. But I've seen nothing from us that would suggest we can challenge out there. Look at the AB's record at home. Very few teams can get a win out there. Why will we when we can just about draw with Ireland, struggle against Scotland at home for large periods, not do too well against a poor France, and get humped for 60 mins against England? So that's where my point came from. It seems unfeasible that we can go out there and beat the world champions when we can't beat them at home where, like most teams, we are better. It doesn't alter the ambition to do well and to strive to better ourselves constantly. That should always be the aim, as you say. But you talk of '1 or 2 wins' out there when zero is the overwhelming likelihood, unfortunately. I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise. You're talking about this team, the one that's stuttering and struggling, going and making Welsh history by being the first Welsh team EVER to win in NZ. And against an NZ team who are current and recent world champions? 1st in the world vs (not sure what we are now) 5th or 6th?! And perhaps do it twice! I'd love to be that optimistic but I just can't be. Unfortunately.

Griff,my son's girlfriend is a New Zealander so I am getting a right earful on the global supremacy of All Blacks rugby.I can no longer reply with the 'chokers' tag since they won the WC,more's the pity.i tell her that the greater the obstacle,the more glory in overcoming it.I am going to continue to dream the impossible dream but last Saturday did rather puncture my incurable optimism.In Gats and his world class coaching team we trust!!

Btw,i love Justin P as a player but I see the O's playing a different way to Wales and getting the best out of him as a result.Wales don't play fast enough for him whereas Nugget had the benefit of a faster style of Welsh play.One of the problems with Warrenball currently is that Warbs' form is inconsistent game to game,but Tips is not a natural replacement for him in the current gameplan.That's why the Italy game is a wasted opportunity.

Very good point Exile Jack.  Yes, the gameplan is not one for Tips perhaps.  That comes to the fore when we're attacking.   A faster game would suit him better.  It is in defence though that the gameplan isn't to blame, I feel.  I know you can have a defensive gameplan too, but when defending we're generally at the mercy of the other team's gameplan and how they attack.  It is here that I feel tips isn't 'combative' enough for the international game.  He's sort of blown off the rucks so his turnovers are few and the oppo get a lot of quick ball.  I'm not an advocate for 15 massive guys in our team.  On the contrary, I yearn for the old days of small lightening wingers and big fat slow props.  THAT was when we had exciting rugby, with mismatches galore, a sport for all, etc!  But I like a bit of size and power in my flanker, so to speak.  I basically want Wales to have a Pocock instead, I think!  Don't we all...

By all accounts Tips is a strong boy but looking at the leading backrowers for NZ,Aus,England and SA it looks like he's giving up between one and a half and two and a half stone to those backrowers.Dan L himself is close to 18st.The only two lighter are Hooper and Warbs and the former is blydi quick.I wonder whether Warbs has injury up and downs because of these weight disparities.SA have definitely gone down the 'heavy' path since Brussow slowed up relatively speaking.

Didn't the Scots convert Richie Vernon to centre from flanker/no.8? Tips is quick enough for inside centre,has a sidestep and can pass but it'll never happen under the current regime.

As for Pocock,he's over 18st and has a physique that would allow him to play LH or TH.He's remarkable as McCaw and the fact he rates Warbs is a pretty big compliment.

munkian wrote:

exile jack wrote:

Griff wrote:

exile jack wrote:

Griff wrote:We can't come anywhere close to beating NZ. How on earth are we going to get a win out there?!!!

Because despite all evidence to the contrary I start watching every Welsh game with huge expectation and even greater hope that the team will play to their full potential for 80 minutes.If an army of monkeys can given time write the works of Shakespeare then Gats and his minions can one day get the best out of our golden generation.Have to believe that or what's the point? The best saying i've heard on overcoming the odds is "Persistence can change failure into extraordinary achievement".

I completely agree with you in theory. It's just that with rugby the way it is, with home advantage being so big in rugby, it seems logical that we need to start beating them at home if we are to be able to beat them away. As sort of a gauge of being able to do it. Unless we fluke a win out there somehow. But I've seen nothing from us that would suggest we can challenge out there. Look at the AB's record at home. Very few teams can get a win out there. Why will we when we can just about draw with Ireland, struggle against Scotland at home for large periods, not do too well against a poor France, and get humped for 60 mins against England? So that's where my point came from. It seems unfeasible that we can go out there and beat the world champions when we can't beat them at home where, like most teams, we are better. It doesn't alter the ambition to do well and to strive to better ourselves constantly. That should always be the aim, as you say. But you talk of '1 or 2 wins' out there when zero is the overwhelming likelihood, unfortunately. I've seen nothing to convince me otherwise. You're talking about this team, the one that's stuttering and struggling, going and making Welsh history by being the first Welsh team EVER to win in NZ. And against an NZ team who are current and recent world champions? 1st in the world vs (not sure what we are now) 5th or 6th?! And perhaps do it twice! I'd love to be that optimistic but I just can't be. Unfortunately.

Griff,my son's girlfriend is a New Zealander so I am getting a right earful on the global supremacy of All Blacks rugby.I can no longer reply with the 'chokers' tag since they won the WC,more's the pity.i tell her that the greater the obstacle,the more glory in overcoming it.I am going to continue to dream the impossible dream but last Saturday did rather puncture my incurable optimism.In Gats and his world class coaching team we trust!!

Btw,i love Justin P as a player but I see the O's playing a different way to Wales and getting the best out of him as a result.Wales don't play fast enough for him whereas Nugget had the benefit of a faster style of Welsh play.One of the problems with Warrenball currently is that Warbs' form is inconsistent game to game,but Tips is not a natural replacement for him in the current gameplan.That's why the Italy game is a wasted opportunity.

They made a $400,000 loss this year - they shouldn't be too smug.

Munkian,i remind her regularly that they need us more than we need them but a win over them would make life ever so sweet.I live for that day I really,really do.

Italy coach Jacques Brunel has made five changes to his injury-hit side ahead of the trip to Wales for the final Six Nations match and his last game in charge.

Brunel keeps the spine of the team which lost 58-15 to Ireland last week but brings in Andrea Pratichetti for Michele Campagnaro, who was injured at the Aviva Stadium along with Edoardo Padovani and George Biagi.

Fly-half Tommaso Allan returns from injury and replaces Padovani for his first appearance of the year, while locks Quintin Geldenhuys and Valerio Bernabo come into the side instead of Biagi and Marco Fuser, who has the flu.


Italy coach Jacques Brunel has made five changes to his injury-hit side ahead of the trip to Wales for the final Six Nations match and his last game in charge.

Brunel keeps the spine of the team which lost 58-15 to Ireland last week but brings in Andrea Pratichetti for Michele Campagnaro, who was injured at the Aviva Stadium along with Edoardo Padovani and George Biagi.

Fly-half Tommaso Allan returns from injury and replaces Padovani for his first appearance of the year, while locks Quintin Geldenhuys and Valerio Bernabo come into the side instead of Biagi and Marco Fuser, who has the flu.


Veteran prop Martin Castrogiovanni returns from suspension to win a record 119th cap, with captain Sergio Parisse also achieving that feat as he lines up alongside Alessandro Zanni and Francesco Minto in a third row which has been unchanged the entire tournament.

"The spine of the team is not different to that which had played this tournament," Brunel said. "Tommaso [Allan] knows well our way of playing, he's returning from a long injury but when he returned in the PROD2 with Perpignan he immediately showed he was in good shape.

"Wales, like Ireland, is capable of playing with great effectiveness. We cannot concede them time and space like we did in Dublin. It will be crucial to slow down their play and maintain the right attitude for the whole 80 minutes."

Italy still has a number of other regulars sidelined by injuries, including Andrea Masi, Simone Favaro, Michele Rizzo, Luca Morisi and Andrea Manici

Italy has yet to win a match in a disappointing tournament for the Azzurri and Brunel, who is ending a tenure of nearly five years.

Italy team to face Wales

15: David Odiete, 14: Leonardo Sarto, 13: Andrea Pratichetti, 12: Gonzalo Garcia, 11: Mattia Bellini, 10: Tommaso Allan, 9: Guglielmo Palazzani; 8: Sergio Parisse (captain), 7: Alessandro Zanni, 6: Francesco Minto, 5: Valerio Bernabo, 4: Quintin Geldenhuys, 3: Martin Castrogiovanni, 2: Davide Giazzon, 1: Andrea Lovotti

Substitutes:

16: Oliviero Fabiani, 17: Matteo Zanusso, 18: Dario Chistolini, 19: Jacopo Sarto, 20: Abraham Steyn, 21:Alberto Lucchese, 22: Kelly Haimona, 23: Luke McLean

So Dan Lydiate missed the captain's run this morning. Surely he should now miss the game? I know cement is happy picking players who aren't fully fit, but Ospreys probably have more need for him than Wales do tomorrow.

It would also be good to see Moriarty have a go.

I'd be happy with Moriarty starting, give Faletau or Charteris the captains armband

bedfordwelsh wrote:I'd be happy with Moriarty starting, give Faletau or Charteris the captains armband

Or Roberts ?

And all the while, the Scarlets' captain, and obvious choice to take over in Warburton and Alun Wyn's absence, sits on the bench...

Yes, this is true.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And all the while, the Scarlets' captain, and obvious choice to take over in Warburton and Alun Wyn's absence, sits on the bench...

Thought Priestland had left

He's still Ken's mentor

Is anyone watching the u20? Ref is virtually giving it to Wales

Of course aye.

Risca was that directed at me?

Good build up, always an impressive atmosphere at the millennium

Oh and Keith Wood predicts Wales by 50-60

I know. He even went as high as seventy, didn't he?

Davies killed Amos a bit there.

Great carry Doc