Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[McLaren]

First topic message reminder :

Super

For starters I live in a one bedroom flat. But I think you know that it should not take the people of a nation putting refugees up in their house before the government is required to do anything about it.

For example the government could easily rent 50 premier inns and put the refugees there until they can be given homes.


"Of course it matters. They have a far greater responsibility than the UK does"

So you are saying that because those countries closer to Syria have neglected their responsibilities the UK has the right to do nothing? You are saying that one country doing nothing is sufficient for another country to justify doing nothing?


bob

WTF was that?

[McLaren]

But you can't the same about labour. From 1997 to 2010 the enacted the most equality driven policies for at least 30 years. They clearly didn't do it as well as I would have liked but that doesn't mean they actively targeted vulnerable groups like the current Tory government have.

Part of the current Torie argument for implementing changes to the welfare state is that the last labour government was too generous.

And again, I am not a dedicated labour voter. I would imagine I have only voted for them around 50-60% of the time, and with the greens the rest of the time.

[McLaren]

Ben

Sounds ok to me, our economy could easily absorb 10000 people.

[super_realist]

But you can't the same about labour.  From 1997 to 2010 the enacted the most equality driven policies for at least 30 years.  They clearly didn't do it as well as I would have liked but that doesn't mean they actively targeted vulnerable groups like the current Tory government have.

Part of the current Torie argument for implementing changes to the welfare state is that the last labour government was too generous.  

And again, I am not a dedicated labour voter.  I would imagine I have only voted for them around 50-60% of the time, and with the greens the rest of the time.

Yes you could Mac, for starters they introduce tuition fees and ran the economy into the ground.  As for refugees, yes, we could easily absorb a % of Syrian refugees, but where do you stop? Countries all over the world are in crisis.

also, What's the matter with you that you keep typing "Torie".

As for voting greens, the only reason they have policies which you find attractive is because they know they will never govern and so will never actually have to honour them and couldn't anyway.

[McLaren]

Super, don't be a moron, repeating the labour ran the economy into the ground mantra is the economics equivalent to creationism or flat earthism.

No model links budget deficits to global recession and financial system melt down.

I really wish I could tempt you to the skeptic/critial thinking way of looking at the world.

(and the torrie, torey, tory etc thing is just my terrible spelling which I have alluded to many times)

[MontysMerkin]

Navy, Mac is one of those people who simply has to object to Tories because they're the Tories using Thatcher as a justification even although he was probably not even born at the time, nor could he probably explain why he thinks anything is worse under a Tory govt, than a Labour one. He seeks a utopia, without realising it isn't possible or realistic.

I think like most people he just believes that tories support the subjugation of the masses under a small elite. They do this by relying on simple minded souls and those that manage, by luck or otherwise, haul themselves from the mire of the general population. By encouraging people to be self serving they can continue to erode the things that originally make a cohesive nation.    

He (and you) may think so but, if "most people" think that, how is it that the Tories are in a majority Government just now? Don't get me wrong, I'm not Tory by nature, but not all that a Tory politician proposes is, nor all of their MPs are, evil. Likewise, not all on the Left are saints, nor are all their proposals amazing.

At the risk of repeating myself they do this by relying on simple minded souls and those that manage, by luck or otherwise, haul themselves from the mire of the general population.

[super_realist]

Super, don't be a moron, repeating the labour ran the economy into the ground mantra is the economics equivalent to creationism or flat earthism.  

No model links budget deficits to global recession and financial system melt down.

I really wish I could tempt you to the skeptic/critial thinking way of looking at the world.

(and the torrie, torey, tory etc thing is just my terrible spelling which I have alluded to many times)

Mac, how short is your memory? Gordon Brown  admitted his failings in putting the brakes on the UK banking system. Of course there was a global problem, but the effect on the UK was very much exacerbated by Labour's shambolic helming of our economy at the time.

I look very critically at everything, however it seems you only look critically at the things which suit your agenda, whilst ignoring the bits that don't. Your constant attacking of the Tory governments is proof of that, whilst simultaneously ignoring the failings of the Labour governments.

[McLaren]

Well this is going nowhere and I can't even remember what we were initially talking about so how about a new discussion.


Super and anyone else in scotland,

Who will you give your vote (constituency + top up vote) to in the upcoming holyrood election?

[super_realist]

Mac, I loathe the Holyrood establishment and those within it, so won't be voting at all. It's a tinpot institution, and I have better things to do than pander to the oiks who make up such a plastic, useless, powerless institution.

[McLaren]

But they do govern our health care system, education, local gov, environment, agriculture, housing, law and probably some stuff I have forgotten.

And this time around each party is proposing to tweak the tax you pay, surely that will interest you?

[super_realist]

Like you say Mac, doesn't affect me in the slightest in any of those aspects, in regards to tax, they simply want the ability to change it, they won't dare do it though, unless downwards.

[McLaren]

Super

You might want to check out the parties manifestos.

SNP will maintain 45% rate.  (so won't implement Osborne's tax cut to 40% for higher earners)

Labour will introduce 50% top rate and an increase of 1% on the basic rate.

Conservatives will keep them the same as the rest of the uk

Lib dems will increase basic rate by 1%

Greens propose 60% rate and split basic rate into two parts.


All making these policies on the back of new scotland act which allows them to alter each band separately. In the past the Scottish parliament could only make a change across the board, eg 1% increase across all bands. They can now alter the rates separately for each income tax band.

[super_realist]

Still won't affect me Mac, as I don't earn 150k, and the Greens and Lib Dems have zero chance so their laughable proposals won't float.

[McLaren]

An SNP win in the Scottish elections coupled with a vote to leave the EU would almost certainly guarantee another referendum on Scottish independence, doesn't that bother you?

[super_realist]

Mac, an SNP win in the Holyrood Election is virtually certain, so it doesn't really matter about what I do in this election.

However, what you might not know is that Holyrood does not have right to call a referendum, only Westminster does.

[McLaren]

Super, a bit of a technicality really.  Can you imagine the Scottish people calling for a referendum and westminster rejecting them?  Lego hair has pretty much admitted what she will do in the situation where scotland votes to stay in the EU but England votes to leave. Plus we don't know what is tucked away in the new scotland act and EU legislation about what happens to a large region forced to leave the UK against its will.

Oh no wait, I can see that happening.  Just look at the stubborn stance over junior doctor working practices.

[super_realist]

JImmy Krankie/Lego Hair is unlikely to call a referendum unless she is miles and miles ahead in a poll for Independence, and that isn't likely, especially given their trump card of Oil is currently contributing nothing to the economy and that a "EU exit" also looks unlikely.

[navyblueshorts]

Super, a bit of a technicality really.  Can you imagine the Scottish people calling for a referendum and westminster rejecting them?  Lego hair has pretty much admitted what she will do in the situation where scotland votes to stay in the EU but England votes to leave.  Plus we don't know what is tucked away in the new scotland act and EU legislation about what happens to a large region forced to leave the UK against its will.

Oh no wait, I can see that happening.  Just look at the stubborn stance over junior doctor working practices.

Yep. When will the Scots Nats (and you, it appears) accept the damned obvious fact they they're subject to democracy, just like the rest of us?? All this "Didn't get the Government I voted for" scheiss etc. Feck off.

As for the junior doctors, they asked for this. They wind me up no end. All this "Save our NHS!" etc BS. It's about money - be honest. I was sort of with them (although their attitude bores the schiess out of me) prior to the current strike. Removal of service from A&E, maternity and ICU is beyond the pale for me I'm afraid. The picket outside Q.M.C. (Nottingham) today seemed to think it was all a wonderful wheeze, judging by the laughter and incredibly juvenile chants they managed to come up with .

[McLaren]

Won't it be nice if the EU vote results in us staying and for a long time we don't have to worry about bits of the UK trying to leave or the UK itself regressing to 19th century ideals of nationhood?

It is getting pretty tiresome having to worry about what the hell your country will look like every 5 minutes.

[navyblueshorts]

Won't it be nice if the EU vote results in us staying and for a long time we don't have to worry about bits of the UK trying to leave or the UK itself regressing to 19th century ideals of nationhood?

It is getting pretty tiresome having to worry about what the hell your country will look like every 5 minutes.

Amen (or some other denominational, or atheist, exclamation) to that.

[McLaren]

Navy

I fully support the action of the junior doctors.  We are supposed to have evidence based medicine in this country (Homeopathy hospitals aside (blame charles)!) and I would extend that evidence based method to the administration and running of the health service.

Sadly Hunt doesn't seem to understand how something becomes evidence based in the world of science or chooses to ignore this for his own polital agenda.   There may or may not be a weekend effect, as far as I can tell the literature from around the world is inconclusive at the moment.  So how he thinks there is an evidence based fix for an as yet not established issue is beyond me.

And even if this effect did exist on what planet would making the same amount of people work more hours help?

Slipping into anecdote here, but I know many junior doctors and can vouch for the fact they work many, many hours beyond what they get paid.  Can you imagine what the NHS would be like without that goodwill?

I once divided a junior doctor friends salary by hours worked in a week and it came out at about £3 and hour.  Seems fair don't you think? And remember they have to pay for all their own workplace insurance, exams and membership to professional bodies out of their own pocket.

We are already extremely stingy with how much we spend on our health system ( http://beta.data.worldbank.org/?end=2013&indicators=SH.XPD.PCAP.PP.KD&locations=GB-US-DE-FR-CH-AU-BG&start=2001 ) and reducing the amount of doctors we have on top of under funding would be a disaster.  (super please note the dip in funding coinciding with the Tory government, and that other nations facing the same global economics did not feel the need to implement)

I think you are being extremely unkind to suggest this issue is about pay or are very much misinformed about what is happening to our junior doctors. The evidence (which doesn't include ad hominem's against doctors laughing at the picket line) supports the action of the doctors.

[beninho]

Good to see justice for the 96. Hopefully sone people will be held accountable.

[JAS]

Super, don't be a moron, repeating the labour ran the economy into the ground mantra is the economics equivalent to creationism or flat earthism.  

No model links budget deficits to global recession and financial system melt down.

I really wish I could tempt you to the skeptic/critial thinking way of looking at the world.

(and the torrie, torey, tory etc thing is just my terrible spelling which I have alluded to many times)

Mac, how short is your memory? Gordon Brown  admitted his failings in putting the brakes on the UK banking system. Of course there was a global problem, but the effect on the UK was very much exacerbated by Labour's shambolic helming of our economy at the time.

I look very critically at everything, however it seems you only look critically at the things which suit your agenda, whilst ignoring the bits that don't. Your constant attacking of the Tory governments is proof of that, whilst simultaneously ignoring the failings of the Labour governments.

Actually, it's one of the great myths of British politics that Labour run the economy into the ground, this is where the Tories PR machine has done an excellent job over the years. Have a read at this....

http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-biggest-borrowers-over-the-last-70-years/

I've occasionally wondered what the outcome would have been had the Tories been in power when the banking crisis hit in 2008.

[MontysMerkin]

What *unt is asking for is laughable. He wants a 7 day service while reducing the budget for a 5 day service - the maths just don't stack up. And the contact is categorically NOT about money. The new contract will allow Trusts to employ juniors instead of senior staff and removes the few remaining safeguards to their working week. If you want to be seen by a doctor who hasn't had a day off in 10 days and may well have been working 16 hour shifts for that period, then fair enough, but in the doctors minds this is incredibly dangerous and will definitely put patients at risk. The media however are starting to swing back to the governments side and the tabloid readers believe it.

[super_realist]

Here's a very funny clip about Jeremy Hunt

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YS5mVoqJpUk

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

I fully support the action of the junior doctors.  We are supposed to have evidence based medicine in this country (Homeopathy hospitals aside (blame charles)!) and I would extend that evidence based method to the administration and running of the health service.

Sadly Hunt doesn't seem to understand how something becomes evidence based in the world of science or chooses to ignore this for his own polital agenda.   There may or may not be a weekend effect, as far as I can tell the literature from around the world is inconclusive at the moment.  So how he thinks there is an evidence based fix for an as yet not established issue is beyond me.

And even if this effect did exist on what planet would making the same amount of people work more hours help?

Slipping into anecdote here, but I know many junior doctors and can vouch for the fact they work many, many hours beyond what they get paid.  Can you imagine what the NHS would be like without that goodwill?

I once divided a junior doctor friends salary by hours worked in a week and it came out at about £3 and hour.  Seems fair don't you think? And remember they have to pay for all their own workplace insurance, exams and membership to professional bodies out of their own pocket.

We are already extremely stingy with how much we spend on our health system ( http://beta.data.worldbank.org/?end=2013&indicators=SH.XPD.PCAP.PP.KD&locations=GB-US-DE-FR-CH-AU-BG&start=2001 ) and reducing the amount of doctors we have on top of under funding would be a disaster.  (super please note the dip in funding coinciding with the Tory government, and that other nations facing the same global economics did not feel the need to implement)

I think you are being extremely unkind to suggest this issue is about pay or are very much misinformed about what is happening to our junior doctors.  The evidence (which doesn't include ad hominem's against doctors laughing at the picket line) supports the action of the doctors.

Points noted, but I call BS on the £3/hour. Utter bunkum. Junior doc Foundation 1 gets £22,862 (minimum; BMA figures). Lets say this doctor does 80 hours/week (somewhat more than the 48 hours/week EU max) and has 20 days leave/year (4 weeks). Not including Bank holidays etc, I make that £11,520/year (80x48x3). So, in other words, your doctor would have to work ~160 hours/week, every week, at £3/hour to make the BMA acknowledged minimum for a freshly qualified F1. Balls.

The sticking point raised most often by the BMA in recent arbitration has been over the 'antisocial hours' pay rate. It's about money in the main. Pure and simple. I don't begrudge them that but it's the BS that they're trying to mask that with that bugs me. There may be other issues, which the BMA are shouting about as the prime issues, but it's the pay that's the sticking point in the negotiations. In addition, as I said, the withdrawal of labour for A&E, maternity, ICU etc is beyond the pale. ALL of these doctors gained entry to medical school spouting UCAS nonsense personal statements about how the only thing they've ever wanted to do was help people etc. I don't see how what they're doing now dovetails with that.
In addition, I trust the BMA and the doctors (as a body) about as far as I can throw them. They are, and always have been, very political.

There needs to be a wider, more honest, conversation about the NHS and what we, as a nation, want it to be and to cater for. What does it cost? What should it cost? How much more are we willing to pay, in ring-fenced taxation etc, for it? Etc, etc etc. The politicians are to blame for not having the guts, as is so often the case, to put the arguments forward.

[navyblueshorts]

Good to see justice for the 96. Hopefully sone people will be held accountable.

Agreed on the first bit. Not so sure on the second, but it depends what happens.

[MontysMerkin]

I'm not sure it's just the pay they're striking about - the media would have you believe that. I'm on a course at the moment with a vascular surgeon. He is expected to perform 8 operations a day. He can manage 2 at best at the moment. He has a theatre ready to go, patient anaesthetised, surgical team all present and correct. He cannot operate until there is a bed free for the patient to go into after the op. This is happening up and down the country and is farcical. The hospital is overflowing with elderly patients that should be at home or in respite care but they cannot be discharged as there is nowhere for them to go. The cuts to social care in this country are having a huge knock on effect. Of course because a lot of this social care is now supplied (or supposed to be) by the private sector, profit is the main motivator not providing appropriate care.

Money is available at any time, it is purely political will (banking crisis case in point). The tories are ideologically opposed to anything they and their chums can't skim a few quid off (the taxpayer).

[navyblueshorts]

What *unt is asking for is laughable. He wants a 7 day service while reducing the budget for a 5 day service - the maths just don't stack up. And the contact is categorically NOT about money. The new contract will allow Trusts to employ juniors instead of senior staff and removes the few remaining safeguards to their working week. If you want to be seen by a doctor who hasn't had a day off in 10 days and may well have been working 16 hour shifts for that period, then fair enough, but in the doctors minds this is incredibly dangerous and will definitely put patients at risk. The media however are starting to swing back to the governments side and the tabloid readers believe it.

10 days in a row @ 16hours/day? Meanwhile, back in the real world....

Even before this fracas and the advent of the EU working time directive, doctors often worked 100+ hours/week and just got the **** on with it. They accepted that it was necessary, gave them the necessary training, allowed them, ultimately, to be exceptionally well paid thank-you very much, have a fantastic pension and often to retire very comfortably in their early to mid-fifties if they wanted. I note that when adhering to the EU WTD, doctors complain that they can't get enough training - well, what the **** do they want? If they can't get the training at 48hours/week, then I'm afraid the answer's obvious.
I concede that where money and doctors is concerned, I'm a little biased by what happened re. the GP contracts. Shed-loads more money given over, less GP cover, fewer home visits (assuming you're even lucky enough to get any). To be fair, if their new contract was that badly handled by the Government of the time, I can hardly blame the GPs for taking advantage.
Before you jump on my throat, I accept that there are issues surrounding the current junior doctors dispute and I don't trust Hunt any more than the BMA.

[navyblueshorts]

I'm not sure it's just the pay they're striking about - the media would have you believe that. I'm on a course at the moment with a vascular surgeon. He is expected to perform 8 operations a day. He can manage 2 at best at the moment. He has a theatre ready to go, patient anaesthetised, surgical team all present and correct. He cannot operate until there is a bed free for the patient to go into after the op. This is happening up and down the country and is farcical. The hospital is overflowing with elderly patients that should be at home or in respite care but they cannot be discharged as there is nowhere for them to go. The cuts to social care in this country are having a huge knock on effect. Of course because a lot of this social care is now supplied (or supposed to be) by the private sector, profit is the main motivator not providing appropriate care.

Money is available at any time, it is purely political will (banking crisis case in point). The tories are ideologically opposed to anything they and their chums can't skim a few quid off (the taxpayer).

I agree with pretty much all of this. However, if that's the issue, fecking strike about that. If the above's the issue, why is the pay element the sticking point in the negotiations?

As I said somewhere else, there needs to be a wider, honest discussion at a National level about what it is we want the NHS to be and how it's to be funded. Until that happens, the sort of situations you describe above will just continue to happen.

[super_realist]

How long are people Junior doctors for?

[MontysMerkin]

I'm not sure it's just the pay they're striking about - the media would have you believe that. I'm on a course at the moment with a vascular surgeon. He is expected to perform 8 operations a day. He can manage 2 at best at the moment. He has a theatre ready to go, patient anaesthetised, surgical team all present and correct. He cannot operate until there is a bed free for the patient to go into after the op. This is happening up and down the country and is farcical. The hospital is overflowing with elderly patients that should be at home or in respite care but they cannot be discharged as there is nowhere for them to go. The cuts to social care in this country are having a huge knock on effect. Of course because a lot of this social care is now supplied (or supposed to be) by the private sector, profit is the main motivator not providing appropriate care.

Money is available at any time, it is purely political will (banking crisis case in point). The tories are ideologically opposed to anything they and their chums can't skim a few quid off (the taxpayer).

I agree with pretty much all of this. However, if that's the issue, fecking strike about that. If the above's the issue, why is the pay element the sticking point in the negotiations?

As I said somewhere else, there needs to be a wider, honest discussion at a National level about what it is we want the NHS to be and how it's to be funded. Until that happens, the sort of situations you describe above will just continue to happen.

The money is what the media is focussing on.

[MontysMerkin]

How long are people Junior doctors for?

Junior docs train for approx 7 years depending on speciality.
2 years foundation, then either surgical or medical for a further 5 to 7 years.
Then registrar before hoping to be a consultant.
Or they are not good enough and become GPs.

[MontysMerkin]

I'm not sure it's just the pay they're striking about - the media would have you believe that. I'm on a course at the moment with a vascular surgeon. He is expected to perform 8 operations a day. He can manage 2 at best at the moment. He has a theatre ready to go, patient anaesthetised, surgical team all present and correct. He cannot operate until there is a bed free for the patient to go into after the op. This is happening up and down the country and is farcical. The hospital is overflowing with elderly patients that should be at home or in respite care but they cannot be discharged as there is nowhere for them to go. The cuts to social care in this country are having a huge knock on effect. Of course because a lot of this social care is now supplied (or supposed to be) by the private sector, profit is the main motivator not providing appropriate care.

Money is available at any time, it is purely political will (banking crisis case in point). The tories are ideologically opposed to anything they and their chums can't skim a few quid off (the taxpayer).

I agree with pretty much all of this. However, if that's the issue, fecking strike about that. If the above's the issue, why is the pay element the sticking point in the negotiations?

As I said somewhere else, there needs to be a wider, honest discussion at a National level about what it is we want the NHS to be and how it's to be funded. Until that happens, the sort of situations you describe above will just continue to happen.

Most people want the NHS. Most people want it to be covered by general taxation. Most people want tax evasion to be stopped so that it can pay for these services. Not really much call for debate.

[super_realist]

Sounds like a crap career path. 7 years at Uni, 7 years post grad. So you don't start earning decent money and getting decent hours until you are about 32 at the earliest?

Why bother? Just become a dentist instead, no fingers up the backside or telling people they are going to die in 6 months.

[MontysMerkin]

Sounds like a crap career path. 7 years at Uni, 7 years post grad. So you don't start earning decent money and getting decent hours until you are about 32 at the earliest?

Why bother? Just become a dentist instead, no fingers up the backside or telling people they are going to die in 6 months.

Because money is not the main driver in their career path.

[McLaren]

Navy

The £3 an hour figure was for one particular week, as I said in the post. (pay/hours worked in a week).  Please be more careful when reading posts before trying to be a smart arse.


If this was only a pay issue then the strike would not be happening.  It is Hunt that keeps claiming the sticking point is Saturday pay rates, but if you want to fall for that then be my guest.

The simple fact is that the same number of people will have to cover more shifts under hunts 7 day plan with the new contract.  There is no need to be bugged by anyone trying to "mask" anything, the pay is what Hunt wants you to think its about but in reality has very little to do with it.

It is also odd that you are worried about A&E, ICU etc being staffed by the same or more people who are also more highly qualified? Why don't you think consultants can manage?


And we all gained entry to uni spouting nonsense on our UCAS form, why single out only one subject?  You know how much of an arse I am and I had to pretend to be the most wonderful keen eyed Frak in the land to get on a top course at a top uni.

I can assure you nothing I have done before or since filling in my UCAS form dovetails with any of the rest of my life.


The honest discussion about the NHS is that the current government have completely under funded the NHS and are now trying to screw over doctors even more to fulfill a silly manifesto pledge.  I take it you accept the world bank figures I gave you?



"10 days in a row @ 16hours/day? Meanwhile, back in the real world...."

Yes this can happen when working as a junior doctor.  12 hour shifts are part of the normal rota so you don't need a patients case to get particularly tricky in hour 12 to end up working 14-16 hours.  For someone this will have happened 10 days in a row.  You seem to have real trouble accepting just how much junior doctors have to work.  

In fact you seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder about doctors? Care to explain this?


What you have to accept is that working conditions for doctors, nurses and other staff in NHS england are terrible right now, never mind when trying to stretch the same resources further.  Why don't you believe NHS staff when they say things have gone beyond breaking point?

[super_realist]

And we all gained entry to uni spouting nonsense on our UCAS form, why single out only one subject?  You know how much of an arse I am and I had to pretend to be the most wonderful keen eyed Frak in the land to get on a top course at a top uni.

yet, you're still a penniless bum, so fat load of good it did you.

[navyblueshorts]

How long are people Junior doctors for?

Junior docs train for approx 7 years depending on speciality.
2 years foundation, then either surgical or medical for a further 5 to 7 years.
Then registrar before hoping to be a consultant.
Or they are not good enough and become GPs.

To be fair though, there are some very good GPs who actually want to be one.

[navyblueshorts]

Most people want the NHS. Most people want it to be covered by general taxation. Most people want tax evasion to be stopped so that it can pay for these services. Not really much call for debate.

Most people say they want the NHS, although I'm sure if it were put to them that it'll cost them more in, say, income tax, they'd be jumping up and down about it.
I agree re. tax evasion, but it's always happened and always will. If the NHS is falling apart as is claimed, it would make better sense to deal with it in the U.K., rather than rely on a sometime-never global fix for tax evasion.

[MontysMerkin]

Most people want the NHS. Most people want it to be covered by general taxation. Most people want tax evasion to be stopped so that it can pay for these services. Not really much call for debate.

Most people say they want the NHS, although I'm sure if it were put to them that it'll cost them more in, say, income tax, they'd be jumping up and down about it.
I agree re. tax evasion, but it's always happened and always will. If the NHS is falling apart as is claimed, it would make better sense to deal with it in the U.K., rather than rely on a sometime-never global fix for tax evasion.

As previously stated, it is political will and not economics.
As for your tax evasion argument, it ranks up there with one of supers well thought out arguments, with a nanananaanaa on the end.

[MontysMerkin]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/27/jeremy-hunt-doesnt-understand-junior-doctors-book-dismantle-nhs

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

The £3 an hour figure was for one particular week, as I said in the post. (pay/hours worked in a week).  Please be more careful when reading posts before trying to be a smart arse.

For someone who rarely, if ever, reads others' posts in detail before spouting off, you've got a nerve. So, what you're saying is, it may have happened for a single individual, in a single week, of his/her career so far? This is assuming that you weren't being spun an exaggerated yarn - being such a keen follower of the scientific method (God, I hate that phrase), you'll no doubt have appraised concrete evidence that supported such a story?

If this was only a pay issue then the strike would not be happening.  It is Hunt that keeps claiming the sticking point is Saturday pay rates, but if you want to fall for that then be my guest.

Just read that back a second. You're claiming, indirectly, that I'm a media puppet and what Hunt says must be rubbish. Despite this, you happily believe a contrary line despite minimal, if any, evidence because it suits your narrative. For someone who, continually, bangs on about the 'scientific method', you really are a laugh.

The simple fact is that the same number of people will have to cover more shifts under hunts 7 day plan with the new contract.  There is no need to be bugged by anyone trying to "mask" anything, the pay is what Hunt wants you to think its about but in reality has very little to do with it.

Well in that case, why the Hell is it that this is what the ACAS negotiations etc fall down upon?

It is also odd that you are worried about A&E, ICU etc being staffed by the same or more people who are also more highly qualified? Why don't you think consultants can manage?

If they're specifically A&E etc Consultants, so be it but I suspect, in many cases they're quite far removed from these actual departments. It's the little things Mac, like "Where can I lay my hands on a bag and mask now that this patient has dislodged his vent tubing??" or "I need some drugs for this patient. Now, how do I get that ordered?" or "I need those clinical chemistry results back NOW! Who do I ask about that?".
Alternatively, if this is all working so swimmingly despite this strike, what is it we need so many juniors for anyway? Being a bit Devil's Advocate there though.

And we all gained entry to uni spouting nonsense on our UCAS form, why single out only one subject?  You know how much of an arse I am and I had to pretend to be the most wonderful keen eyed Frak in the land to get on a top course at a top uni.

I can assure you nothing I have done before or since filling in my UCAS form dovetails with any of the rest of my life.

Bollox. I hate to disillusion you, but unless you applied for medicine, dentistry or veterinary science, your statement made chuff all difference. No-one read it.

The honest discussion about the NHS is that the current government have completely under funded the NHS and are now trying to screw over doctors even more to fulfill a silly manifesto pledge.  I take it you accept the world bank figures I gave you?

Ah. Tory evil again. Bollox. This hasn't simply come about on their watch. Remind who was in a majority Government from 1997 - 2010? PFI is a cluster**** but I wonder who championed all of that?

"10 days in a row @ 16hours/day? Meanwhile, back in the real world...."

Yes this can happen when working as a junior doctor.  12 hour shifts are part of the normal rota so you don't need a patients case to get particularly tricky in hour 12 to end up working 14-16 hours.  For someone this will have happened 10 days in a row.  You seem to have real trouble accepting just how much junior doctors have to work.  

In fact you seem to have a pretty big chip on your shoulder about doctors? Care to explain this?

OK. So you do a 12-hour shift. Big deal (cf. other staff like nurses). Can't take a joke, shouldn't have joined. Four days on, three off. As for your scenario re. "hour 12", I hate to disillusion you, but the majority, in my experience, clock off on the 12th hour, often having given a very sketchy/crap handover. And the "10 days in a row" combined with 16 hour days is absolute bull. It may occur for some individuals rarely, but you're suggesting it's the norm - a bit like the BMA.
As for the "chip" comment, I won't deign it with a response.

What you have to accept is that working conditions for doctors, nurses and other staff in NHS england are terrible right now, never mind when trying to stretch the same resources further.  Why don't you believe NHS staff when they say things have gone beyond breaking point?

I don't have to accept anything of the sort. I accept there's plenty amiss, such as the sort of situation Monty described, above. What I don't accept is your, and others, knee-jerk position that everything the doctors spout is Gospel truth and anything a Government minister says is all lies and utterly evil.

[MontysMerkin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mql7dkMREI

[navyblueshorts]

As previously stated, it is political will and not economics.
As for your tax evasion argument, it ranks up there with one of supers well thought out arguments, with a nanananaanaa on the end.

Says you, based on chuff all. The fact you comment re. the tax evasion issue like that is pretty sad. You'd clearly rather things go to Hell in handcart on the off-chance that a suitable global tax evasion policy arrives in the distant future. Personally, I'd rather we sort out the NHS at home before it collapses. I guess you go BUPA.

[navyblueshorts]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/27/jeremy-hunt-doesnt-understand-junior-doctors-book-dismantle-nhs

Sorry. Got about a dozen lines in and then gave up when it became simply Tory-bashing and taking pot-shots at Hunt's upbringing....

[MontysMerkin]

I just don't understand why people would say "ah well we can't do anything about it" when it is perfectly possible to do something about it. I know it works for super but would think you would be able to do better.

[navyblueshorts]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mql7dkMREI

That's meant to be a "grilling" where he's "shifty"?? Good God.

[MontysMerkin]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/apr/27/jeremy-hunt-doesnt-understand-junior-doctors-book-dismantle-nhs

Sorry. Got about a dozen lines in and then gave up when it became simply Tory-bashing and taking pot-shots at Hunt's upbringing....

Yep satire can be quite tough to understand. Long words as well. Anyway the gist of it is that Hunt is incompetent, the governments policy on the nhs is unworkable, and people with a lot better idea about how it all works think they are irretrievably damaging the service in order to prepare to sell it to private business (some of whom own or are on their boards)

[MontysMerkin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mql7dkMREI

That's meant to be a "grilling" where he's "shifty"?? Good God.

Yes he's quite the statesmen.
Hunt’s only other job was founding Hotcourses magazine!

[navyblueshorts]

I just don't understand why people would say "ah well we can't do anything about it" when it is perfectly possible to do something about it. I know it works for super but would think you would be able to do better.

Thanks, I think. I didn't say "do nothing" over tax evasion. I suggested that it might make more sense to assume that'll either take time or very little will ultimately happen and it would, therefore, be better to find the increased funding via other routes, before there's complete meltdown.

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