Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
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Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
First topic message reminder :
Super
For starters I live in a one bedroom flat. But I think you know that it should not take the people of a nation putting refugees up in their house before the government is required to do anything about it.
For example the government could easily rent 50 premier inns and put the refugees there until they can be given homes.
"Of course it matters. They have a far greater responsibility than the UK does"
So you are saying that because those countries closer to Syria have neglected their responsibilities the UK has the right to do nothing? You are saying that one country doing nothing is sufficient for another country to justify doing nothing?
bob
WTF was that?
Super
For starters I live in a one bedroom flat. But I think you know that it should not take the people of a nation putting refugees up in their house before the government is required to do anything about it.
For example the government could easily rent 50 premier inns and put the refugees there until they can be given homes.
"Of course it matters. They have a far greater responsibility than the UK does"
So you are saying that because those countries closer to Syria have neglected their responsibilities the UK has the right to do nothing? You are saying that one country doing nothing is sufficient for another country to justify doing nothing?
bob
WTF was that?
McLaren- Posts : 17591
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Certain elements of the HRA are completely absurd.
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
super_realist wrote:Certain elements of the HRA are completely absurd.
such as?
beninho- Posts : 6854
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Many of the articles relating to criminals.
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
It's a human rights act, not a 'human's we like and who haven't done anything wrong' act.
SmithersJones- Posts : 2094
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
super_realist wrote:Many of the articles relating to criminals.
Because they dont have any rights?
beninho- Posts : 6854
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
No, more the misuse of the act to placate prisoners, i.e. voting.
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Was it down to placate the prisoners, I don't think any court would issue a decision to keep people happy. I think they issued a decision because a blanket ban on all prisoners is not really fair, and breaches the rights a person has to vote.
beninho- Posts : 6854
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
If incarceration is the punishment for certain crimes, it's hardly much more of an inconvenience to have your voting rights withdrawn.
Why should criminals in the penal system have a right to vote anyway?
Why should criminals in the penal system have a right to vote anyway?
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
super_realist wrote:If incarceration is the punishment for certain crimes, it's hardly much more of an inconvenience to have your voting rights withdrawn.
Why should criminals in the penal system have a right to vote anyway?
I am not sure if they should all have a vote, if you are long term prisoner on life or multiple life sentences you probably should not. If you are in for short term, or due to be released before the next election, then I can see why they should be able to vote.
The ruling stated that the blanket policy is what needs to be looked at, not that everyone should be able to vote.
beninho- Posts : 6854
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
super_realist wrote:If incarceration is the punishment for certain crimes, it's hardly much more of an inconvenience to have your voting rights withdrawn.
Why should criminals in the penal system have a right to vote anyway?
Because the purpose of the prison system is to rehabilitate offenders and reintegrate them into society, ideally without re-offending. Disenfranchisement goes directly against that, meaning as it does that anyone who is in prison at the time of an election but released during the term of the government elected will have had no say in the election of their own government.
SmithersJones- Posts : 2094
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Super
Why not give the rights to everyone instead of trying to create a subgroup who don't get human rights, which will inevitably include people you wish you had given the rights to.
I would rather all the criminals in the land had human rights than trying trying to remove those rights for criminals and harming someone we didn't mean to.
Also, any chance you could expand on what parts of the HRA is so absurd?
Why not give the rights to everyone instead of trying to create a subgroup who don't get human rights, which will inevitably include people you wish you had given the rights to.
I would rather all the criminals in the land had human rights than trying trying to remove those rights for criminals and harming someone we didn't mean to.
Also, any chance you could expand on what parts of the HRA is so absurd?
McLaren- Posts : 17591
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
SmithersJones wrote:super_realist wrote:If incarceration is the punishment for certain crimes, it's hardly much more of an inconvenience to have your voting rights withdrawn.
Why should criminals in the penal system have a right to vote anyway?
Because the purpose of the prison system is to rehabilitate offenders and reintegrate them into society, ideally without re-offending. Disenfranchisement goes directly against that, meaning as it does that anyone who is in prison at the time of an election but released during the term of the government elected will have had no say in the election of their own government.
If that's the case, don't lock them up at all, just in case they find it too hard.
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Who cares about Human Rights with regard to those convicted?
Clearly not some of the (dis)United States:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/04/22/about-200000-convicted-felons-in-virginia-will-now-have-the-right-to-vote-in-november/
Clearly not some of the (dis)United States:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2016/04/22/about-200000-convicted-felons-in-virginia-will-now-have-the-right-to-vote-in-november/
kwinigolfer- Posts : 26476
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
super_realist wrote:SmithersJones wrote:super_realist wrote:If incarceration is the punishment for certain crimes, it's hardly much more of an inconvenience to have your voting rights withdrawn.
Why should criminals in the penal system have a right to vote anyway?
Because the purpose of the prison system is to rehabilitate offenders and reintegrate them into society, ideally without re-offending. Disenfranchisement goes directly against that, meaning as it does that anyone who is in prison at the time of an election but released during the term of the government elected will have had no say in the election of their own government.
If that's the case, don't lock them up at all, just in case they find it too hard.
WTF? I'd love to know how you come to that conclusion. It's not a penal system, it's a prison system, intended to keep offenders away from the public for a period while they're rehabilitated. If they behave well they're released before the end of the sentence in the expectation that they'll continue to behave, but they're on licence and can be recalled at any time if they transgress.
If you want a penal system, go live in North Korea where human rights are non-existent.
SmithersJones- Posts : 2094
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Super
What % of people do you think are locked up for properly heinous crimes which would warrant throwing away the key and removing their human rights?
Is it not better to focus on the vast majority of prisoners who have short sentences and whom we might like to integrate back into society in a meaningful way?
As Smithers points out we don't run a purely penal system but one which at least has the goal of rehabilitation.
What % of people do you think are locked up for properly heinous crimes which would warrant throwing away the key and removing their human rights?
Is it not better to focus on the vast majority of prisoners who have short sentences and whom we might like to integrate back into society in a meaningful way?
As Smithers points out we don't run a purely penal system but one which at least has the goal of rehabilitation.
McLaren- Posts : 17591
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Mac, the point is that you don't have to have a blanket voting system for prisonerts. It's not a case of everyone gets the same rights.
As you point out there is a difference between the likes of Peter Sutcliffe and someone in for Tax Evasion. Why would you even want to afford them the same rights just because some wet liberal thinktank can't make a distinction between utter scumbags and someone who has made a mistake?
As you point out there is a difference between the likes of Peter Sutcliffe and someone in for Tax Evasion. Why would you even want to afford them the same rights just because some wet liberal thinktank can't make a distinction between utter scumbags and someone who has made a mistake?
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Smithers, we DO have a penal system. The Prison System is simply a link in the penal system chain. Policing for example, and the law courts are part of a penal system.
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
super_realist wrote:Mac, the point is that you don't have to have a blanket voting system for prisonerts. It's not a case of everyone gets the same rights.
As you point out there is a difference between the likes of Peter Sutcliffe and someone in for Tax Evasion. Why would you even want to afford them the same rights just because some wet liberal thinktank can't make a distinction between utter scumbags and someone who has made a mistake?
I agree, tax fraudsters should be disenfranchised.
McLaren- Posts : 17591
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Rehabilitation and reintegration are fine ideals - but why not adopt the following....
If someone gets 5 years, let them out in 5 years IF their behaviour is good. Never mind 2.5 years. Good behaviour earns them a timely release. If they DON'T behave properly, add more time on.
Whether it is tax evasion or rape, if a sentence is x years they should get x years. Anything other than good behaviour should add to it
If someone gets 5 years, let them out in 5 years IF their behaviour is good. Never mind 2.5 years. Good behaviour earns them a timely release. If they DON'T behave properly, add more time on.
Whether it is tax evasion or rape, if a sentence is x years they should get x years. Anything other than good behaviour should add to it
Davie- Posts : 7821
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Davie wrote:Rehabilitation and reintegration are fine ideals - but why not adopt the following....
If someone gets 5 years, let them out in 5 years IF their behaviour is good. Never mind 2.5 years. Good behaviour earns them a timely release. If they DON'T behave properly, add more time on.
Whether it is tax evasion or r***, if a sentence is x years they should get x years. Anything other than good behaviour should add to it
That's just semantics Davie. If a judge wants you to serve 5 years he'll give you 10. Besides, if there was no incentive to behave well in order to get early release the system would crumble - jails are stupidly overcrowded as it is.
SmithersJones- Posts : 2094
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Looking good for Leicester.
pedro- Posts : 7353
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Certainly is - if Spurs had won tonight I'd have said Man Utd would beat Leicester on Sunday, now I think they'll draw or possibly even Leicester will win - what a place to claim the title!
SmithersJones- Posts : 2094
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
I have nothing against the spurs but they seem to lack something. They did nothing to show they wanted the title.
pedro- Posts : 7353
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Think they got distracted by some of West Brom's nigglers, tried to win skirmishes then forgot about the battle. Didn't seem to press at all in the 2nd half. And now they could be without Alli for a game or two.
kwinigolfer- Posts : 26476
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
http://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2016/apr/25/patrick-stewart-sketch-what-has-the-echr-ever-done-for-us-video
McLaren- Posts : 17591
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
McLaren wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2016/apr/25/patrick-stewart-sketch-what-has-the-echr-ever-done-for-us-video
![Laugh](/users/3014/26/22/82/smiles/810156456.jpg)
![Laugh](/users/3014/26/22/82/smiles/810156456.jpg)
![Laugh](/users/3014/26/22/82/smiles/810156456.jpg)
SmithersJones- Posts : 2094
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
MontysMerkin wrote:I would say minimum wage was a good one. Creation of the welfare state another. Invading Iraq is starting to increasingly look foolish. As were the PFI deals. The junior doctors contract looks well dodgy, and as for removing free education for nurses when nursing is at an all time low seems particularly short sighted. I suppose things of note worthy of praise would have to be things like wiping ones own arse, remembering to blink, etc...
![picard](/users/3014/26/22/82/smiles/429063825.gif)
navyblueshorts- Moderator
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Insightful navy.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Navy, what don't you like about that post?
McLaren- Posts : 17591
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Absolutely; I try. Perhaps I should have confined theMontysMerkin wrote:Insightful navy.
![picard](/users/3014/26/22/82/smiles/429063825.gif)
MontysMerkin wrote:...I suppose things of note worthy of praise would have to be things like wiping ones own arse, remembering to blink, etc...
The above is just dull. It's traditional to make the sort of remark you did, so I suppose I shouldn't fault you. You seem to be implying you could do a better job - go on then, get to it.
navyblueshorts- Moderator
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
McLaren wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/culture/video/2016/apr/25/patrick-stewart-sketch-what-has-the-echr-ever-done-for-us-video
![Laugh](/users/3014/26/22/82/smiles/810156456.jpg)
navyblueshorts- Moderator
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Navy
Would you agree you would rather the ECHR had the final say on your rights and freedoms compared something drawn up by the current Torie government?
Would you agree you would rather the ECHR had the final say on your rights and freedoms compared something drawn up by the current Torie government?
Last edited by McLaren on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
McLaren- Posts : 17591
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
I apologise that it doesn't reach the intellectual heights of
![picard](/users/3014/26/22/82/smiles/429063825.gif)
MontysMerkin- Posts : 1593
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
What difference would it make who wrote it up Mac?McLaren wrote:Navy
Would you agree you would rather the ECHR had the final say on your rights and freedoms compared something drawn up by the current Torie government?
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
No worries. Apology acceptedMontysMerkin wrote:I apologise that it doesn't reach the intellectual heights of![]()
![OK](/users/3014/26/22/82/smiles/3610695981.gif)
navyblueshorts- Moderator
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
A bit simplistic to phrase it like that don't you think? Will they be in power after the next GE? Would all their current MPs support a controversial rights Bill? Do you actually think all the existing Tories are evil to the extent they'd actively draft something they knew to be detrimental? Do you think the Lords would simply wave a controversial Commons Bill through with no comment? In this era of focus-group politicians/politics, do you think there wouldn't be any public influence over a controversial Bill between Green paper stage and statute?McLaren wrote:Navy
Would you agree you would rather the ECHR had the final say on your rights and freedoms compared something drawn up by the currentTorieTory government?
Removing your clear Tory antipathy, I would indeed agree that a body representing lots (how many is it currently?) of countries of the EU is probably more likely to come to balanced decisions re. things like basic human rights. The U.K. should be engaging and influencing that process within the E.U. i.e. making an argument that others would see as the right thing to be done in whatever situation.
Last edited by navyblueshorts on Tue 26 Apr 2016, 2:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
navyblueshorts- Moderator
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Navy, Mac is one of those people who simply has to object to Tories because they're the Tories using Thatcher as a justification even although he was probably not even born at the time, nor could he probably explain why he thinks anything is worse under a Tory govt, than a Labour one. He seeks a utopia, without realising it isn't possible or realistic.
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
I guess the rights of children would be badly damaged if the Tories were to come up wither their own rights bill.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/how-mps-voted-on-whether-to-accept-3000-unaccompanied-syrian-child-refugees-who-travelled-to-europe-a7001016.html
(Navy/super - I believe the Tories (and UKIP?) are the only people who want to scrap the human rights act?. SO really it is up to them to replace it, if they even bother to replace it)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/how-mps-voted-on-whether-to-accept-3000-unaccompanied-syrian-child-refugees-who-travelled-to-europe-a7001016.html
(Navy/super - I believe the Tories (and UKIP?) are the only people who want to scrap the human rights act?. SO really it is up to them to replace it, if they even bother to replace it)
McLaren- Posts : 17591
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Why would that be, were Tories never children? Or do Tories not have children?
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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I think like most people he just believes that tories support the subjugation of the masses under a small elite. They do this by relying on simple minded souls and those that manage, by luck or otherwise, haul themselves from the mire of the general population. By encouraging people to be self serving they can continue to erode the things that originally make a cohesive nation.super_realist wrote:Navy, Mac is one of those people who simply has to object to Tories because they're the Tories using Thatcher as a justification even although he was probably not even born at the time, nor could he probably explain why he thinks anything is worse under a Tory govt, than a Labour one. He seeks a utopia, without realising it isn't possible or realistic.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
MontysMerkin wrote:I think like most people he just believes that tories support the subjugation of the masses under a small elite. They do this by relying on simple minded souls and those that manage, by luck or otherwise, haul themselves from the mire of the general population. By encouraging people to be self serving they can continue to erode the things that originally make a cohesive nation.super_realist wrote:Navy, Mac is one of those people who simply has to object to Tories because they're the Tories using Thatcher as a justification even although he was probably not even born at the time, nor could he probably explain why he thinks anything is worse under a Tory govt, than a Labour one. He seeks a utopia, without realising it isn't possible or realistic.
So no different to any political party.
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
It may be worth looking up the term socialism. Or go one further and look up democratic socialism.
MontysMerkin- Posts : 1593
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
The point being Monty that Mac can't give examples of how he is any better or worse off under any particular party, he just by default slags off the party he thinks he should dislike, whilst ignoring the one he thinks he should like, despite them both being terrible in many respects.
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Super
What does it matter whether I am better off under one part or another? I am lucky enough to be in a socioeconomic group that will pretty much dodge every bullet.
The tories have used policies which have harmed the following groups;
The disabled
NHS workers
NHS patients
people seeking low rent housing
migrants
refugees
the environment
small green businesses
School children
teachers
Need I go on?
Did you read the article which I posted the link for? When you do you will see the disregard the current government has for child refugees. And you want them to construct your rights?
What does it matter whether I am better off under one part or another? I am lucky enough to be in a socioeconomic group that will pretty much dodge every bullet.
The tories have used policies which have harmed the following groups;
The disabled
NHS workers
NHS patients
people seeking low rent housing
migrants
refugees
the environment
small green businesses
School children
teachers
Need I go on?
Did you read the article which I posted the link for? When you do you will see the disregard the current government has for child refugees. And you want them to construct your rights?
McLaren- Posts : 17591
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
He (and you) may think so but, if "most people" think that, how is it that the Tories are in a majority Government just now? Don't get me wrong, I'm not Tory by nature, but not all that a Tory politician proposes is, nor all of their MPs are, evil. Likewise, not all on the Left are saints, nor are all their proposals amazing.MontysMerkin wrote:I think like most people he just believes that tories support the subjugation of the masses under a small elite. They do this by relying on simple minded souls and those that manage, by luck or otherwise, haul themselves from the mire of the general population. By encouraging people to be self serving they can continue to erode the things that originally make a cohesive nation.super_realist wrote:Navy, Mac is one of those people who simply has to object to Tories because they're the Tories using Thatcher as a justification even although he was probably not even born at the time, nor could he probably explain why he thinks anything is worse under a Tory govt, than a Labour one. He seeks a utopia, without realising it isn't possible or realistic.
navyblueshorts- Moderator
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Mac, that's no "article". It's a dog whistle bit of so-say naming and shaming. As if the Independent (whom I like) have written a balanced piece of media describing the arguments pro and con. That's not a great bit of evidence to support any argument you're trying to make.McLaren wrote:...Did you read the article which I posted the link for? When you do you will see the disregard the current government has for child refugees. And you want them to construct your rights?
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Navy
Please present the arguments against helping child refugees?
Please present the arguments against helping child refugees?
McLaren- Posts : 17591
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
McLaren wrote:Super
What does it matter whether I am better off under one part or another? I am lucky enough to be in a socioeconomic group that will pretty much dodge every bullet.
The tories have used policies which have harmed the following groups;
The disabled
NHS workers
NHS patients
people seeking low rent housing
migrants
refugees
the environment
small green businesses
School children
teachers
Need I go on?
Did you read the article which I posted the link for? When you do you will see the disregard the current government has for child refugees. And you want them to construct your rights?
You could say the same for Labour Mac, almost word for word. So why are you attacking the Tories, and not Labour?
Given you've admitted to having parlous finances before, surely you are affected by these "persecuting" policies?
super_realist- Posts : 29023
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
I didn't listen to the arguments in the Commons. Unlike your good self, I'm not going to simply jump to conclusions as to why that decision was made. There may have been some very good reasons why the majority chucked that proposal out - I don't know. Go get Hansard and post the text for me eh?McLaren wrote:Navy
Please present the arguments against helping child refugees?
You're also assuming that if Labour (or whomever were in Government), a different decision would have been made and therefore the Tories are evil.
navyblueshorts- Moderator
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Re: Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread
Helping child refugees, who I assume will not have much in the way of documentation and therefore may not be able to confirm Syrian nationality. There is the potential that as some of these are not syrian, maybe they are being trafficked with the aim of getting further family members into the country. 3,000 children, may then mean 6,000 parents and 10,000 siblings, all claiming the right to reside in the UK.
beninho- Posts : 6854
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