Frank Bruno's Chin

First topic message reminder :

Having a debate with a mate of mine about Frank Bruno's chin. He says he had a good chin but just had poor instincts to getting hit and just stood there to take more. I'm saying he had a weak chin as KOd 5 times and never really took shots too well.

Wondered what all your thoughts were?

EX7EY wrote:Martin didn't have the heart/will/skill to get up off the canvass and carry on. So what. Nobody called him a bottle job.

What exactly do you think bottle job means?

Not sure what you're rabbiting on about now to be honest? Also jumping to yet more conclusions about me and quoting things I never said. See you later David.

Scottrf wrote:

EX7EY wrote:Martin didn't have the heart/will/skill to get up off the canvass and carry on. So what. Nobody called him a bottle job.

What exactly do you think bottle job means?

Another idiot. This place is absolutely rife with them. This is why I lurked for years.

Ironically the two so vehemently attacking about this bottle job business are the ones that are actually being disrespectful.

You guys are basically saying that anytime a fighter realises his limitations within the ring and opts out of any further punishment they are a 'bottlejob'.

Oh no I guess Joseph Parkers trainer doesn't know what it's like to be punched in the face either. It's sickening he thought he could carry on as well. Should be banned from the sport!!!

http://www.skysports.com/boxing/news/12183/10239133/parker-praises-joshuas-ko

Sweet jesus there are some touchy, precious people on here today.

Right, Melv you said that he tasted the power and didn't fancy it. So you are saying he took the easy way out, bottling it basically. So that can be interpreted that you are calling him a bottle job. 

Honestly, I think he did bottle it, I thought he could have carried on and think the way he got up moaning about the count showed that he was fully able to do so.

Dave, Melv hasn't said that he expects fighters to be carried out of the ring anywhere so please stop putting words in his mouth. 

This bickering is pathetic, try and debate like grown ups.

PaulHv2 wrote:Sweet jesus there are some touchy, precious people on here today.

Right, Melv you said that he tasted the power and didn't fancy it. So you are saying he took the easy way out, bottling it basically. So that can be interpreted that you are calling him a bottle job. 

Honestly, I think he did bottle it, I thought he could have carried on and think the way he got up moaning about the count showed that he was fully able to do so.

Dave, Melv hasn't said that he expects fighters to be carried out of the ring anywhere so please stop putting words in his mouth. 

This bickering is pathetic, try and debate like grown ups.

Paul, I said (feel free to read it back if you will) that MAYBE Melv was the type of person who liked to see fighters carried out of the ring. MAYBE not YOU ARE...so please, stop putting words in my mouth. As for bickering, Melv is the one who has his opinion on Bruno's chin and when provided with examples as to why he may NOT have been blessed with a great chin he decided to get stroppy, then said, oops, implied, that Martin was a bottle job who didn't fancy get knocked out cold. Then we have someone else who thinks because he's trained in Muay Thai that he's the font of all knowledge when it comes to the subject. You don't have to have been a fighter to know what it's like to get knocked silly...try getting a cricket ball or a football to the face, try banging you head or getting smashed in the mosh pit and you'll have an understanding of scrambled senses and how the people around you who HAVEN'T just been clobbered will have a very different view of what's just happened that what you think has just happened.

You only need to look at Amir Khan vs Prescott or Garcia to see what someone is like when robbed of their senses and equilibrium

EX7EY wrote:Go away with you Dave. He can't 'basically' say anything.  He either said the mans a bottle job or he didn't.

Martin didn't have the heart/will/skill to get up off the canvass and carry on. So what. Nobody called him a bottle job.

If we're being frank then you're talking out of your rear end in all honesty. You're talking as if Martin was all over the place. Did you even watch it?

P.S before you even start telling me i've no idea what being hit is like I'll let you know I'm graded in Muay Thai and I've fought on a UWCB event. Not bigging myself up either before you go down that road, but sick of people who dont know the other person telling them what they do and do not know.

Irony thy name is EX7EY, did I even watch the fight? Silly arrogant fellow that you are. Yes, I watched the fight and given the quality of the images I was watching and having the benefit of repeated super slo-mo's I was able to see Martin's eyes roll back in his head after the second KD. Having seen that it was clear, to me at least, that Martin's ability to take AJ's punches was being severely diminished and that if he was allowed to continue he'd be badly hurt. Thankfully the ref stopped the fight befre AJ got chance to zero in on the target properly. Now if you or anyone else wants to label Martin a quitter or a bottle job or whatever term you feel applies to a fighter who decided to throw in the towel then feel free. However, my personal belief is that his ability to follow the ref's count was severely impaired due to the those two heavy shots, but again, feel free to start saying that I'm talking out of my backside or assuming that because my opinion differs to yours that I must not have watched the fight (not the cleverest argument anyone's ever put forward) and the fact that you need everything in black and white (did he say bottle job or didn't he?) shows your worrying lack of understanding of nuance.

The ref counted him out though and didn't stop it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6-bMDBc9RY

Arguing semantics, the ref didn't allow him to continue. Seen plenty of fights where the guy is up at 9.9999999 and the ref waves him on. The ref was smart enough to say no, I'm not giving him the benefit of the doubt. If the ref didn't think he was in trouble, given it was a world title fight and Martin was the Champion, one would think the ref would be inclined to let the fight continue. However, fighters' health comes before the bloodlust of a baying p!ssed up crowd of Chelsea fans and the ref decided it was dangerous to let him continue

Oh my god. Are people actually reading what they write or just making it up as they go along? Dave your back tracking is awfully painful to read.

I talked about muay Thai and boxing because it was YOU who implied that somebody didn't know what it was like to get hit in the face, and therefore their opinion was invalid. I was merely saying don't try and use the same argument with me.

The simple fact is, Martin was physically and mentally able to continue. Whether you interpret that as a bottle job the that's up to you.

To me he's a man that got put on his backside early in a fight twice and knew he had no chance so let the ref no choice but to wave it off. He's a smart man at the very least. I'm done here now, boring.

I've read more responses... Dave are you confused or what? You're the one that came on here stamping your feet like a little girl. Trashing someone for something they didn't even say. Are you all with it or are you absent? Sounds like you know first hand what it's like getting hit in the head to me if I'm honest.

If you think Martin was out of it then fair doos mate. I'm not saying he SHOULD have continued but he most certainly COULD have. And I strongly believe you will find yourself in the minority.

When did his eyes roll back in his head? Things look exaggerated in slow motion. He immediately sat up and started laughing did he not? Obviously if you are watching a man get decked in slow motion then you will see all the little intricacies of an impact on the face and a man falling down. Obviously it will look bad and look like his eyes are all over the shop.

This is all off topic anyway. I only got involved because you were out of order with the OP. You out words in his mouth and snagged off his character and then you cry to Paul (also someone who loves to jump into arguments and stamp his authority I've noticed) about him putting words into your mouth.

You've got zero credibility as far as I'm concerned. In fact I'd say you're one of those posters who likes to go into wum more every now and then.

EX7EY wrote:Oh my god. Are people actually reading what they write or just making it up as they go along? Dave your back tracking is awfully painful to read.

I talked about muay Thai and boxing because it was YOU who implied that somebody didn't know what it was like to get hit in the face, and therefore their opinion was invalid. I was merely saying don't try and use the same argument with me.

The simple fact is, Martin was physically and mentally able to continue. Whether you interpret that as a bottle job the  that's up to you.

To me he's a man that got put on his backside early in a fight twice and knew he had no chance so let the ref no choice but to wave it off. He's a smart man at the very least. I'm done here now, boring.

No, the simple fact is that only Martin knows if he was able to continue but at the end of the day it's the ref's opinion that matters more than anyone else's. Don't where you think I've backtracked, I've been consistent in my argument that the ref felt Martin wasn't able to continue As for you being done on here.... I sincerely hope you are, you claim to have been a tourist for a while yet when you finally decided to give us your input, it's not been worth the wait. I hope that's clear enough and you don't need it spelling out for you.

Haha I've been a tourist since the migration from BBC 606 believe it or not.

And yes I'll concede that the fact is nobody other than Martin knows for sure. But on the visual evidence we can hazard a good guess.

Fair enough if you don't think my contributions are worth much. Stick me on your foe list and I'll do likewise. No skin off my nose.

You were back tracking with the things you said about the Op when Paul pulled you up. Like an absolute little girl if I'm honest haha.

I only even got involved in this because you were put of order with the Op, who I was actually in the middle of disagreeing with. But believe it or not it's possible to do that without being an aggressive a hole.

EX7EY wrote:I've read more responses... Dave are you confused or what? You're the one that came on here stamping your feet like a little girl. Trashing someone for something they didn't even say. Are you all with it or are you absent? Sounds like you know first hand what it's like getting hit in the head to me if I'm honest.

If you think Martin was out of it then fair doos mate. I'm not saying he SHOULD have continued but he most certainly COULD have. And I strongly believe you will find yourself in the minority.

When did his eyes roll back in his head? Things look exaggerated in slow motion. He immediately sat up and started laughing did he not? Obviously if you are watching a man get decked in slow motion then you will see all the little intricacies of an impact on the face and a man falling down. Obviously it will look bad and look like his eyes are all over the shop.

This is all off topic anyway. I only got involved because you were out of order with the OP. You out words in his mouth and snagged off his character and then you cry to Paul (also someone who loves to jump into arguments and stamp his authority I've noticed) about him putting words into your mouth.

You've got zero credibility as far as I'm concerned. In fact I'd say you're one of those posters who likes to go into wum more every now and then.

F*ck's sake....where to begin.

Sounds like you know first hand what it's like getting hit in the head to me if I'm honest.

Yes, I used to box as a kid (very, VERY briefly...didn't like getting thumped) also did martial arts including Muay Thai as a teenager (gave up for the same reasons) Also being an a few fights and been clouted on the bonce so yes, I do know what it's like.

He immediately sat up and started laughing did he not?

For the first KD he did, not for the second, he went sprawling. Watch the fight between Alex Arthur vs Michael Gomez.. Arthur gets dropped stands up and starts having a chat with the camera man outside the ring, however he hasn't got a f*cking clue where he is and is knocked out a few moments later.

I only got involved because you were out of order with the OP. You out words in his mouth and snagged off his character and then you cry to Paul (also someone who loves to jump into arguments and stamp his authority

So Paul jumps into arguments and he's a busybody but when you do it you're knight in shining armour who decides that Melv can't fight his own battles (pretty arrogant if you ask me and, to be fair, dismissive of melv and his debating skills) As for putting words in Melv's mouth, if you can't figure out nuance and inference then it's probably too late for me to start educating you re the subtleties of the English language.

You've got zero credibility as far as I'm concerned

I'm sure I'll get over it

EX7EY wrote:Haha I've been a tourist since the migration from BBC 606 believe it or not.

And yes I'll concede that the fact is nobody other than Martin knows for sure. But on the visual evidence we can hazard a good guess.

Fair enough if you don't think my contributions are worth much. Stick me on your foe list and I'll do likewise. No skin off my nose.

You were back tracking with the things you said about the Op when Paul pulled you up. Like an absolute little girl if I'm honest haha.

I only even got involved in this because you were put of order with the Op, who I was actually in the middle of disagreeing with. But believe it or not it's possible to do that without being an aggressive a hole.

Where's the fun in that?

Proper keyboard Warrior you dave haha. Love it.

EX7EY wrote:Proper keyboard Warrior you dave haha. Love it.

You better believe it!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's quite that Martin was not mentally able to continue, whether he consciously decided to not get up we'll never but he didn't get up in time. I don't blame him in the slightest either way, he got dropped heavily by glancing shots he didn't see, unless you're Oliver McCall I doubt many are willing to taste a shot bang on the chin.

From what I saw: Martin could have continued (physically) but he'd just been hit by two shots he hadn't seen coming which left him in a position where he no longer wanted to fight on (and he was a tad wobbly after the second shot). This wasn't a Bruce Seldon cop out (where Seldon pretended to be wobbly against Tyson) but it was the exact same scenario as Malik Scott leaving it until the last minute to rise. Journeymen do the same thing on a regular basis to save face.

Either way he'd had enough. If the ref had let it go, Joshua probably would have knocked him out.

Martin definately could have continued but he felt the power and didnt really want to. The old "Il wait til the count of 9 before getting up and pretend I mistimed the count" has been used by boxers since way back when as a means of exiting a fight they no longer wished to participate in.

What melv has presented here is a false dichotomy. There are possibilities other than great chin/crap chin. Bruno didn't have the best chin of all time but by no means had the worst one, either. The truth is somewhere in between. As others here have suggested, he could take a whack but didn't have great survival instincts or nous in knowing what to do under pressure. Also, a lot of the time he was fatigued, which further clouds the thinking. I can't think of many top heavyweights from history that haven't been dropped or wobbled at some point, were they all chinny?

I agree with whoever said that Bruno's chin wasn't ATG but he could take heavy shots. He would just stand there and take them though instead of doing something to defend himself. Remember the Lewis fight where he just took shots that he could have avoided by clinching. He clinched the hell out of McCall and seemed good at it (so learned in the end). Was more fatigue I his early days coupled with facing opponents that were just better than him in his stoppage defeats.

Don't quite understand this Martin debate so I'll stay out of it.

Fair enough. I still don't think he had a great chin but maybe I was being a bit harsh saying it was weak.

Tyson was the only fighter that dominated Frank..

Bruno had a top class jab and it worried top class heavies in Witherspoon and Lewis....Opponents that lacked Tyson's speed..

Problem was he had no survival instinct and never knew how to take a breather in there...Too anaerobic-ly built.

He was a bit too muscle-bound. A few hits to the chin and he tended to do an impersonation of a shot rabbit.

However, he was better than a lot of other Brits and always tried his best. He's earnt his place in all our affections and has nothing to be ashamed of.

I'm not quite sure what is the purpose of this debate.

By the original posters definition of a weak chin 99% of heavyweight boxers would have weak chins.

Bruno had a decent enough chin, most of the time he was left without his senses he had the strength to remain upright, wasn't falling all over the place but had no defensive thoughts to protect himself.

Most would probably define a weak chin more in a sensible manner, something along the lines of 25% of boxers having good chins, 50% having average chins and 25% having weak chins. So the worst 25% have a weak chin, someone like Khan would be in the 25% of boxers that have a weaker chin.

Someone like Bruno would have probably been in the top 25% or in the high middle 50% This would mean most wouldn't consider him to have a weak chin.

Having 5 KO's against you isn't a sign of a weak chin unless it was against people that weren't known to punch hard.

It is all about definition of a weak chin and most would disagree with you as they define a weak chin in a less harsh way that you do.

I only got involved because you were out of order with the OP. You out words in his mouth and snagged off his character and then you cry to Paul (also someone who loves to jump into arguments and stamp his authority

Can I just point out, that prior to that post my last one on these boards was nearly a month ago so I'm not sure where you get this opinion 

Put your handbags back, girls!

Azabache wrote:Put your handbags back, girls!

Careful you'll be accused of stamping your authority

PaulHv2 wrote:

I only got involved because you were out of order with the OP. You out words in his mouth and snagged off his character and then you cry to Paul (also someone who loves to jump into arguments and stamp his authority

Can I just point out, that prior to that post my last one on these boards was nearly a month ago so I'm not sure where you get this opinion 

Guy commits murder, serves 20 years, gets out and commits another...he's got form for it!
You stamp you authority, flounce off and disappear for five months, come back and do it again....it's a pathological disorder and you need help

A knockout is not to do with the chin, but the brain banging against the inside of the skull - the brain being otherwise suspended inside a fluid filled cavity.  Heavyweights can create enough power to be able to knock most people out in a single blow.  There are "special" points on the jaw and head that are particularly good at transmitting energy into "brain banging" modes that can give rise to lights out.  It varies from person to person depending on skull structure, neck muscles, posture of head ...

A fighter doesn't have to be knocked out to be called chinny. We all know what causes a knockout but as far as being chinny is concerned, we consider it be when a fighter finds himself in trouble from a punch that wouldn't necessarily trouble the average boxer.

Straying historically into Middleweight territory, Nigel Benn was chinny, also-earlier-Thomas Hearns...

I'd actually say Benn was anything but chinny, nobody survives that McCllelan onslaught without a good chin, in his earlier career he didn't know what it was like to be hit more than anything.

Azabache wrote:Straying historically into Middleweight territory, Nigel Benn was chinny, also-earlier-Thomas Hearns...

Nigel was a strange one, stood up hellish shots from some guys and then nearly got stopped in the last round by Mauro Galvano (?) who'd he'd previously beaten. Think the ref jumped in to end the round and Galvano thought he'd got a last second stoppage win

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'd actually say Benn was anything but chinny, nobody survives that McCllelan onslaught without a good chin, in his earlier career he didn't know what it was like to be hit more than anything.

No there were plenty of occasions when Nigel got tagged, his legs went and he had to retreat to the ropes. As often said, it was when he ws hurt that he was most dangerous and in those early fights, had he fought someone with a bit more savvy he may not have been able to get the wins he did

DAVE667 wrote:A fighter doesn't have to be knocked out to be called chinny. We all know what causes a knockout but as far as being chinny is concerned, we consider it be when a fighter finds himself in trouble from a punch that wouldn't necessarily trouble the average boxer.

Okay thanks.  That creates a certain area of grey for which there will be no definite answer and allow discussion to go round in cycles forever.  

Bruno could take heavy shots to the head, but there were certain shots which stunned him that left him vulnerable for finishing off.  But no shot poleaxed him to the canvass.  I don't think he was ever "knocked out", he would go down after an onslaught of punches.  It is often the unseen/unexpected head shot that causes the person to be stunned.

DAVE667 wrote:

Azabache wrote:Straying historically into Middleweight territory, Nigel Benn was chinny, also-earlier-Thomas Hearns...

Nigel was a strange one, stood up hellish shots from some guys and then nearly got stopped in the last round by Mauro Galvano (?) who'd he'd previously beaten. Think the ref jumped in to end the round and Galvano thought he'd got a last second stoppage win

Speed seemed to bother Benn (which was why the Jones fight - after he was shot - was such a bad idea).

Galvano had Benn all but out with a jab (and Galvano was a powder-puff puncher). Danny Perez had him all over the show after the McClellan fight (although that could be attrubuted to the beating he took from The G-Man).

Watson flattened Benn with a jab - that one was more down to pure exhaustion but still. Eubank hurt him, Henry Wharton dropped him, Anthony Logan; Doug DeWitt (who was no puncher) dropped him, Barkley had him in trouble briefly. Benn's chin wasn't great but his fitness and heart allowed him to rally back from the brink.