Rafael Nadal has filed his defamation lawsuit today in Paris against Roselyne Bachelot.

https://twitter.com/BenRothenberg/status/724617054440054784

Don't know how to post the copy of the lawsuit shown on this link?

http://sport360.com/article/tennis/international-tennis/176307/rafa-nadal-files-lawsuit-against-french-ex-sports-minister-roselyne-bachelot/

Aaargh I was just gonna write a post on this.


All I can say is good. Good for Rafa. Hope he sues that bi%£$h for all she's worth.

Typical arrogant politician, made worse by her French smug superiority, spouting Poopie and expecting to just get away with it.

Lets hope this will also silence the anti-Nadal posters, here and every other tennis forum.. where ever they may be. Good Luck Rafa about time

Another article from The Guardian

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/25/rafael-nadal-sue-french-cabinet-minister-doping-allegations

This is good news. Hope he gets a good result. Absolutely shameful she thought she could make such comments with no evidence.

Tennis is just swirling in controversy with Murray's innuendo and now all this stuff. Good for Nadal people should not be able to go and make accusations publically in the media without having back up for their claims. In the long run they may be right or wrong like Armstrong's accusers. But you have to be able to back up an allegation if you go public with something concrete that provides a rational and reasonable basis to run with something that damages someone else.

I have heard two versions of what Roselyne Bachelot actually said.

1:- "Bachelot was quoted as saying after Sharapova’s high-profile confession: “We know that Nadal’s famous seven-month injury was without a doubt due to a positive [drug test]. When you see a tennis player who stops playing for long months, it is because he has tested positive and because they are covering it up.":-
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/25/rafael-nadal-sue-french-cabinet-minister-doping-allegations


2:- "Last month, former Minister for Health and Sport Bachelot said Nadal's seven-month absence in 2012 was "probably due to a positive doping test". "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/36134607


If 1 is true then I believe Nadal has a case, but if 2 is true then I'm not so sure. Simply because is uses the word "probably" which is one of those non committal words like: "maybe", "could", "likely", "possibly", "perhaps", "might", etc.


This could all come down to something that's been lost or added in translation.

Given all the legal advice that Rafa has at his disposal I think it highly unlikely he would file for defamation if he were not pretty sure of the facts.
He would not wish to undermine his own position imo

erictheblueuk wrote:I have heard two versions of what Roselyne Bachelot actually said.

1:- "Bachelot was quoted as saying after Sharapova’s high-profile confession: “We know that Nadal’s famous seven-month injury was without a doubt due to a positive [drug test]. When you see a tennis player who stops playing for long months, it is because he has tested positive and because they are covering it up.":-
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/apr/25/rafael-nadal-sue-french-cabinet-minister-doping-allegations


2:- "Last month, former Minister for Health and Sport Bachelot said Nadal's seven-month absence in 2012 was "probably due to a positive doping test". "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/36134607


If 1 is true then I believe Nadal has a case, but if 2 is true then I'm not so sure. Simply because is uses the word "probably" which is one of those non committal words like: "maybe", "could", "likely", "possibly", "perhaps", "might", etc.


This could all come down to something that's been lost or added in translation.

Bachelot also "clarified" her slurs after being threatened with legal action. This was just after she made the original comments but before the lawsuit was filed.

"I simply reflected comments widely held in the world of tennis and the press,” she said. “Players have denounced these practices as widely used. Austrian player [Daniel] Koellerer and others have declared, 'Impossible that Nadal and [David] Ferrer have not doped.' I don't remember these declarations causing such a stir."

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2016/03/nadal-sue-former-french-minister-accusing-him-doping/57881/#.Vx8T2npH7oB

It stinks but if her "defense" that she is just repeating what has been said by others is accepted then Nadal may lose. It certainly appears to be the reason behind he second justification comment. Would be scandalous.

socal1976 wrote:Tennis is just swirling in controversy with Murray's innuendo and now all this stuff. Good for Nadal people should not be able to go and make accusations publically in the media without having back up for their claims. In the long run they may be right or wrong like Armstrong's accusers. But you have to be able to back up an allegation if you go public with something concrete that provides a rational and reasonable basis to run with something that damages someone else.

Accusing an athlete of doping can have serious consequences. The ones doing the accusing appear to be able to do it with few repercussions even if they have no evidence at all. Talking about "suspicions" or saying they have heard "rumors" or repeating slurs that others can apparently be done with little if any reproach. The ATP and ITF should have spoken out when Batcholet or indeed anyone said damaging things about it's players and the tour. Nadal shouldn't have had to file a lawsuit as an individual. Of course they should have done the same when Murray made his slurs but with him they could have gone a lot further as he has a signed contract with the ATP itself. No lawsuit would be needed with Murray he could have been fined and/or suspended from the tour by the ATP.

Instead we have Nadal having to take legal action and Djokovic accused of being like Armstrong because he denied Murray's slurs. What message does that send to others who want to damage athletes reputations? They can do it with immunity. In tennis this can include those in the public eye with a hatred for individual players or players themselves with a chip on their shoulder because they have lost. It says go ahead you have nothing to lose and whatever the person you have slurred says or does they will look guilty and their reputation will be damaged. The ATP and ITF have a lot to answer to...

Well to be honest it is not the point.. whatever she said, whatever she meant is immaterial.. the damage has been done.
Like poking a hornets nest in jest, everyone gets stung..."Oh I didn't mean it"
She has to be made accountable for these remarks.. she said it on TV
Would she ever have said it about a French player in the same circumstances .. I think not. Rafa is Spanish and we know what the French think of the Spaniards

Clarifying afterwards does not negate the impact of the first words given. Yes it limits damage more (to her) but not wholly. She can't unsay what she first said and Nadals legal team will know that. It's like punching someone and then saying sorry afterwards...the damage from the first offence has been done!

hawkeye wrote:

socal1976 wrote:Tennis is just swirling in controversy with Murray's innuendo and now all this stuff. Good for Nadal people should not be able to go and make accusations publically in the media without having back up for their claims. In the long run they may be right or wrong like Armstrong's accusers. But you have to be able to back up an allegation if you go public with something concrete that provides a rational and reasonable basis to run with something that damages someone else.

Accusing an athlete of doping can have serious consequences. The ones doing the accusing appear to be able to do it with few repercussions even if they have no evidence at all. Talking about "suspicions" or saying they have heard "rumors" or repeating slurs that others can apparently be done with little if any reproach. The ATP and ITF should have spoken out when Batcholet or indeed anyone said damaging things about it's players and the tour. Nadal shouldn't have had to file a lawsuit as an individual. Of course they should have done the same when Murray made his slurs but with him they could have gone a lot further as he has a signed contract with the ATP itself. No lawsuit would be needed with Murray he could have been fined and/or suspended from the tour by the ATP.

Instead we have Nadal having to take legal action and Djokovic accused of being like Armstrong because he denied Murray's slurs. What message does that send to others who want to damage athletes reputations? They can do it with immunity. In tennis this can include those in the public eye with a hatred for individual players or players themselves with a chip on their shoulder because they have lost. It says go ahead you have nothing to lose and whatever the person you have slurred says or does they will look guilty and their reputation will be damaged. The ATP and ITF have a lot to answer to...

HE - your constant statements that Murray has acted in breach of contract when, of course, he has done nothing of the sort would appear to, ironically, actually be defamatory. Trying to equate Bachelot stating that Nadal had been silently banned for failing a test to Andy saying he has had suspicions about unnamed players is bizarre, unwarranted and indicative of your odd obsession with him. As has been said elsewhere, if Rafa had made the same statements as Andy you would have been praising him for his tough stance on doping.

I called for him to do this at the time whereas some others (perhaps suspecting he would not?) aired all their reasons for him not to.

He's quite right.

However, one (unintended?) consequence is that he has now set a standard for others. If you're accused and DON'T sue, well you must be dodgy, will go the line. Of course, if you ARE dodgy then sueing is extremely dangerous as the defence will be able to bring out everything and there is a huge financial exposure if it goes wrong (and I'm not talking about lawyers fees).

Tennis unquestionably in my mind has a big performance enhancing drugs problem, and if it hasn't percolated to the upper reaches of the sport then tennis enjoys a unique position in World sport in that respect, something that stretches my credulity beyond breaking point. This broader story has barely begun to run, it is going to get much murkier over the next few years and I'll be amazed if some household names don't become implicated.

I called for him to do this at the time whereas some others (perhaps suspecting he would not?) aired all their reasons for him not to.

Yes and I was one of those who were unsure as to whether he should
but in retrospect... wait for it... you were right

"HE - your constant statements that Murray has acted in breach of contract when, of course, he has done nothing of the sort would appear to, ironically, actually be defamatory. Trying to equate Bachelot stating that Nadal had been silently banned for failing a test to Andy saying he has had suspicions about unnamed players is bizarre, unwarranted and indicative of your odd obsession with him. As has been said elsewhere, if Rafa had made the same statements as Andy you would have been praising him for his tough stance on doping."


Mods - Isn't it about time that she is taken "off air" again, her problem seems to be worsening. She is good for a laugh at times but her OCD is really out of control

I think it was the French that first had the bottle to call out Lance Armstrong.

But since Rafael Nadal competes in several French tournaments every year, they have the opportunity to take and store blood samples.  Since Nadal has passed every single test made on French soil and is several times a year in France available for sample collection (the "where abouts system" is still in place), one has to give him some respect rather than constantly insinuate.

Lawsuit will never get to court. 1. Nadals team knows the lady is not going to spend the money to defend herself with the type of time and money Nadal's team can throw at her. In a couple of months you will see a "settlement" where she puts out a watered down statement clarifying she has no actual knowledge of Nadal doping. It will be seen as a win for Nadal and everyone moves one.

We've all seen this hundreds of times in the entertainment and sports world.

It's most likely a smart move by Nadals team. It makes others think twice about throwing out accusations, and phychologicaly it makes or reinforces peoples perception (that are already leaning that way especially) that he is innocent - otherwise wouldn't be fighting it.

At same time- there is a segment of public which it won't mean anything one way or other because they have seen guilty parties sue claiming they were wronged when they really weren't, i.e. Armstrong, etc.

Unfortuantly- these situations are really a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" type thing.

lydian wrote:Clarifying afterwards does not negate the impact of the first words given. Yes it limits damage more (to her) but not wholly. She can't unsay what she first said and Nadals legal team will know that. It's like punching someone and then saying sorry afterwards...the damage from the first offence has been done!

I would hope so...

This is interesting

LONDON (AP) — Fed up of being accused of doping, Rafael Nadal has written to the president of the International Tennis Federation and asked for all of his drug-test results and blood profile records to be made public.

“It can’t be free anymore in our tennis world to speak and to accuse without evidence,” the 14-time Grand Slam champion said in a letter obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press.

Nadal’s letter was sent to ITF President David Haggerty on Monday, the same day he filed suit against a former French government minister who had suggested he had been doping.

“I know how many times I am tested, on and off competition,” Nadal wrote in the letter. “Please make all my information public. Please make public my biological passport, my complete history of anti-doping controls and tests.”

“From now on I ask you to communicate when I am tested and the results as soon as they are ready from your labs,” he added. “I also encourage you to start filing lawsuits if there is any misinformation spread by anyone

The ITF confirmed it received the letter from Nadal, including the request for his test results to be released under the Tennis Anti-Doping Program.

“The ITF can confirm that Mr. Nadal has never failed a test under the TADP and has not been suspended at any time for an anti-doping rule violation or for any other reason related to the TADP,” the ITF said in a statement sent to the AP.

The ITF said Nadal, like other players, has access to his anti-doping records through the World Anti-Doping Agency’s database “and is free to make them available.”

“The accuracy of any such release would be verified by the ITF,” the federation said.

The Spanish star said he was writing the letter because of remarks by Roselyne Bachelot, France’s former minister for health and sport. She said on a French television show last month that Nadal’s seven-month injury layoff in 2012 was “probably due to a positive doping test.”

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/tennis/2016/04/26/rafael-nadal-wants-his-drug-test-results-made-public/83535916/

No excuse for other players not to do the same.

Sounds like Rafa, and every other player, has always been able to make their own records public if they wanted to.

hawkeye wrote: ...
I would hope so...

This is interesting

LONDON (AP) — Fed up of being accused of doping, Rafael Nadal has written to the president of the International Tennis Federation and asked for all of his drug-test results and blood profile records to be made public.

... .

Very good of Rafa.  I have to say it would not surprise me to find Rafa to be a creature of high morality when it comes to personal behaviour.  He always seems to try his best on court, gives it his all.  He also seems to be a little headstrong - he seems to like to do things his own way - even to the point of running his body into the ground.  He seems also to be highly superstitious aligning his bottle labels and the like.  I don't think he would do anything to "anger the gods".

That sounds like a very angry Rafa.. a side  that we do not see that often but maybe it is time that the world at large saw that there is another Nadal.. who may not be so humble !!!

Yes let us see his results made public perhaps it would put paid to the accusations once and for all.  Enough is enough. If Im sick and tired of hearing it then he must be

Will it change anything though?

Sure, it addresses the accusation that a test result has been covered up (although, of course, anyone who really believes that probably wouldn't believe any information disclosed by Rafa/ATP).

However, most people probably accept that any positive tests lead to a ban. The issue is whether those tests are sufficient to catch someone who is doping (with a highly paid team of doctors behind them). I don't see that releasing test results will change that position.

I have no idea if Rafa is doping but it won't change my mind if his test results get released.

Born Slippy wrote:Will it change anything though?

Sure, it addresses the accusation that a test result has been covered up (although, of course, anyone who really believes that probably wouldn't believe any information disclosed by Rafa/ATP).

However, most people probably accept that any positive tests lead to a ban. The issue is whether those tests are sufficient to catch someone who is doping (with a highly paid team of doctors behind them). I don't see that releasing test results will change that position.

I have no idea if Rafa is doping but it won't change my mind if his test results get released.

I would suggest that sounds rather like someone who does not want to be convinced.. I wonder why

Will it change anything?  For me yes.  

It is a question of openness versus vagueness.  Someone prepared to release very personal data on themselves including their "biological passport" - is potentially also opening themselves up to a lot of trouble - Chris Froome & Sky Cycling team discussed how raw data can be subject to misinterpretation and gossip.  

People prepared to allow blood samples to be stored for later analysis when new tests become available - these people are demonstrating an openness that can only be interpreted as complete sincerity.

There are issues with contamination and spiking that can also effect the completely innocent.  But here we have someone prepared to be completely open on his tests and his test results.

Exactly what more can he do. to convince anyone.???. he is  desperately trying  to clear his name ; his whole life has been dedicated to the sport,  his career and now the  future of his  academy depend on it... so for him, if not for his doubters , it changes everything. He has every right to be angry and anyone who genuinely cares for this sport would be behind him

I think Rafa and his team have handled all this well. The first time people made allegations, or hints against him (a few years ago, I forget who) he ignored it because to sue would have given more oxygen to minor rumours.

But it happened too many times now, and this one was slightly worse, and if he hadn't sued, it was getting to the point where people could say what they like, and you would start to believe the rumours or wonder why he hadn't sued.

I agree with Lydian. She is trying to back off but she did damage. She is not backing off quite enough. I also agree with Truffin. She just needs to put out a formal statement saying she was repeating other rumours, that she has no actual evidence, and backing off a bit. Possibly accompanied by a small ish payment. There is no need for this to go to court.

I do think though sueing is a personal choice and there should not necessarily be an expectation for others to do the same. There should not generally be a "if s/he's innocent, why not sue?" (implying guilt) in my view. Decision to sue only slightly increases the probability of innocence in my view.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Lets hope this will also silence   the anti-Nadal posters, here and every other tennis forum.. where ever they may be.  Good  Luck Rafa about time

Should at least quieten them down for a bit.

As to this:

“The ITF can confirm that Mr. Nadal has never failed a test under the TADP and has not been suspended at any time for an anti-doping rule violation or for any other reason related to the TADP,” the ITF said in a statement sent to the AP.

Does anyone know if this covers all tests? I mean, does this absolutely mean he has never failed any test, or does it not cover all tests. I mean, this TADP does that cover slams, non-slams, Olympics etc. Are their separate tests within the Spanish national program (if there is such a thing)?

Henman Bill wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Lets hope this will also silence   the anti-Nadal posters, here and every other tennis forum.. where ever they may be.  Good  Luck Rafa about time

Should at least quieten them down for a bit.

As to this:

“The ITF can confirm that Mr. Nadal has never failed a test under the TADP and has not been suspended at any time for an anti-doping rule violation or for any other reason related to the TADP,” the ITF said in a statement sent to the AP.

Does anyone know if this covers all tests? I mean, does this absolutely mean he has never failed any test, or does it not cover all tests. I mean, this TADP does that cover slams, non-slams, Olympics etc. Are their separate tests within the Spanish national program (if there is such a thing)?

I have always found this cycle of innuendo about players without anything concrete so distasteful. Who can forget Veejay who could tell you the exact cocktail of PEDs Nadal was on by simply looking at him on TV. Well I don't know why WADA doesn't hire Veejay the human urine smelling version of a drug sniffing canine? My position is clear and always has been we need to find a new system to the prohibition model that has so many holes in it right now that no one has certainty about anyone.

Henman Bill wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Lets hope this will also silence   the anti-Nadal posters, here and every other tennis forum.. where ever they may be.  Good  Luck Rafa about time

Should at least quieten them down for a bit.

As to this:

“The ITF can confirm that Mr. Nadal has never failed a test under the TADP and has not been suspended at any time for an anti-doping rule violation or for any other reason related to the TADP,” the ITF said in a statement sent to the AP.

Does anyone know if this covers all tests? I mean, does this absolutely mean he has never failed any test, or does it not cover all tests. I mean, this TADP does that cover slams, non-slams, Olympics etc. Are their separate tests within the Spanish national program (if there is such a thing)?

What he does say, and Im not sure that this answers your question is

“I know how many times I am tested, on and off competition,” Nadal wrote in the letter. “Please make all my information public. Please make public my biological passport, my complete history of anti-doping controls and tests.”

Haddie-nuff wrote:Exactly what more can he do. to convince anyone.???. he is  desperately trying  to clear his name ; his whole life has been dedicated to the sport,  his career and now the  future of his  academy depend on it... so for him, if not for his doubters , it changes everything. He has every right to be angry and anyone who genuinely cares for this sport would be behind him

It's the unfortunate position of a pro sportsman though, particularly post Armstrong. The general view is that if the top athletes want to cheat they can probably do so whilst testing clean. Short of having an independent film crew film him 24/7 for a year, I can't see anything he can do to prove a negative.

I'm not sure why you think I don't want to be convinced. I'm not a Rafa fan but tennis is a better place when all the top guys are playing. He seems a nice guy and I genuinely hope he is clean. My point about being neutral was not aimed really at Rafa. I give every player the benefit of the doubt but equally I know there will be some players who are doping - I would therefore never say a player definitely is or isn't doping. We just don't know.

I apologise if Im being somewhat dim here.. but your answer leaves me confused. I asked the question exactly what else can he do to convince anyone of his innocence other than what he has asked i.e. to make all of his information public including his biological passport and his history of anti doping control and drug tests... yet still you say "you will give him the benefit of the doubt" that tells me you do not want to be convinced. The rest you say is paying it lip service.

If you nailed him to the cross and still he claims his innocence .. would that convince you without giving him any benefit of the doubt

Let's try this a different way? Do you think every player in the top 100 is definitely clean?

Of course there is doubt, plenty. It's called false negatives, as suggested here:
http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002706

Sorry wont work BS.. you are answering a question with a question
This topic is about Nadal suing for defamation
What you ask is a separate issue and I would suggest you create a different thread on the subject, then I might enter into the discussion.

All I know is that Nadal has no other way of attempting to clear his name
You still remain skeptical, (oh don't worry you are not on your own). There are many who would love to see his name blackened. No one will ever convince me that he would go to these lengths to prove is point if he were not innocent of the accusations that have been made against him over years, not just recently. To have to see those who would love to make a mockery of everything you have stood for since the age of 4yrs old. Not just his career has depended on him clearing his name but his future when he retires.
At this moment in time BS.. I as a fan of the man as well as the player, feel he deserves respect for what he is about to open himself up to. He has everything to lose here, and nothing to gain

Nadal has set a precedent. Other players will be obliged to follow suit. Any player that doesn't could be accused of looking a little like Armstrong.

Matchpoint wrote:Of course there is doubt, plenty. It's called false positives, as suggested here:
http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002706

Still hasn't answered the question then has it... what would you suggest he do

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/questions-answers/athlete-biological-passport

Born Slippy wrote:Let's try this a different way? Do you think every player in the top 100 is definitely clean?

Well the truth is only Rafa has asked for his records to be made public. It's the other 99 that could be attempting to hide something.

Lol - nice dodge. It seems unlikely every player in the top 100 is clean yet we know that if they all released their data the test results would show they have not failed any test. It therefore isn't a step which would significantly change most people's opinions (whether or not they think a player is doping).

hawkeye wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:Let's try this a different way? Do you think every player in the top 100 is definitely clean?

Well the truth is only Rafa has asked for his records to be made public. It's the other 99 that could be attempting to hide something.

Hide what? We know their records are clean as otherwise they would be banned. Unless you are saying the ITF and/or WADA are corrupt?

Matchpoint wrote:Of course there is doubt, plenty. It's called false negatives, as suggested here:
http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002706

 Have you seen when the above article was last updated. 28/8/2009

Do you know what BS you are proving my point with every post you make.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Matchpoint wrote:Of course there is doubt, plenty. It's called false negatives, as suggested here:
http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002706

 Have you seen when the  above article was last updated. 28/8/2009

You're absolutely right. Already in 2009 doping techniques were steps ahead to avoid testing positive.
We're talking science here. Of course doping methods have improved and become much MORE sophisticated TODAY in 2016 than in 2009 motivated by the same goal to pass drug tests. Doping docs only get better to protect their clients, not worse, it's their job. And again, the medical world is about the advancement of science, not sports per se.

So in this view (ever present false negatives, I bet even more today than in 2009), I agree with BS. Even after every file, every test result, is open to public scrutiny as having a negative result, I'd still not believe Nadal's innocence. And the same goes for Federer, Djokovic, Murray et al. Tennis is now more and more about how good your medical team is, not all about how you hit a ball or your court position. Of course, you're welcomed to disagree.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Do you know what BS you are proving my point with every post you make.

Fair enough Haddie. It feels like you just don't want to engage with a fairly uncontroversial point but each to their own.

hawkeye wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:Let's try this a different way? Do you think every player in the top 100 is definitely clean?

Well the truth is only Rafa has asked for his records to be made public. It's the other 99 that could be attempting to hide something.

To be fair, he's the one sounding more like Lance 'I have never failed a drug test' Armstrong.

He could release his bio-passport data I suppose - Oh wait, he's a tennis player - not nearly enough blood testing for that sort of thing to even be close to relevant.

http://bigthink.com/think-tank/lance-armstrongs-guide-to-passing-a-drug-test

Haha, is nadal really so naive to think by revealing the results his name will be clear? A public figure's reputation is determined by the public. The celebrity himself/herself doesn't get to dictact how he wants/wishes to be viewed, unfortunately.

Sadly it doesn't matter how many tests he's passed of passes in the future. The suspicion will always be there. Cheats like Lance Armstrong have made everyone suspicious of everything.

I am no expert but would guess that science moves on before the tests catch up.

Frankly I do not wish to engage in any further  discussion with those who obviously have their own agenda....it would never matter if there were irrefutable proof of his innocence there are those here that would not believe him.
The discussion is not only pointless but immaterial because for all the skepticism there is no proof of your accusations either. Its a stalemate. I hope Rafa clear up this mess and I am pleased that there are so many within the sport that are supportive of him. who obviously know more than you or I

There is no mileage in any further input from me.. I would suggest you go back to your witch hunting !!!

Guest82 wrote:Sadly it doesn't matter how many tests he's passed of passes in the future. The suspicion will always be there. Cheats like Lance Armstrong have made everyone suspicious of everything.

I am no expert but would guess that science moves on before the tests catch up.

Very much this. The moment anyone makes an allegation against an athlete with no proof, the justification always gets referred to Armstrong. Seems to be the norm nowadays as they now have their Trojan Horse.