Alex Goode - Premiership player of the year

First topic message reminder :

A little surprising, although he's had a good season.

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/goode-named-premiership-player-of-the-season/

I'm a little confused with this statement:

"Alex’s explosive pace, quick feet, game management, kicking game and exceptional distribution skills have been the platform for a number of Saracens’ victories this season.

What??

I certainly do think that Goode is drinking in the last chance saloon when it comes to international level. I agree he has weaknesses at international level but I hope a new coaching set up with three ex Saracens coaches will help.

I feel similar with Jonny May. The difference between the two at the moment is that Goode is performing very well at club level. May is injured. Both have a lot to prove at international though IMO.

Not the only players either too.

Many players like Slade,Daly,Harrison,Wade need to prove themselves too.

Ashton is another in the last chance saloon as well, can he rediscover himself at international level if given an opportunity?

I don't think Lancaster handled the back three situation very well.

Shining on the wing but the attributes to play FB.

Nowell isn't slow and Ashton was a star for England pre-Lancaster. There's not a better winger at tracking play in the world than Ashton. Use him like this or don't use him is my call.

Totally agree Emon.

Watson does have the attributes, but so does Goode clearly. I feel Goode deserves that chance far more than Ashton who got an extended run and didn't do anything but make silly mistakes. I don't think there's a winger demanding the chance as Goode is at full back.

May Most overrated winger in England. Possibly in Europe too.

A player whose done worse than Goode and is a shoo in for some, find it utterly bizarre personally.

Just because he's fast doesn't make him good, lacks a good rugby brain and his defence is as bad as the likes of Yarde,Wade and Ashton. Poor finisher too.

Pecking order of wingers IMO:

Watson
Nowell
Wade
Ashton
Rokodiguini
May
Yarde

As for FB

Goode (should be given a one last go, if he has a poor tour.....)
Brown
Miller

May's actually done well for England beshocked. It's a shame you missed some of the better performances in the AIs. Started off a bit shaky but grew into it. A good example of giving a player some time to acclimatise starting to pay off. Shame he's been injured for Jones, but I suspect he'll be selected once back.

Brown isn't the fastest but when on form is great at breaking tackles and generating momentum. If he could only pass as well...

Nowell is similar but with better hands. On the right day he's very busy, and he also tackles very well for a winger.

I just don't think Goode can do that. I think at international level he's horrible at taking the ball into contact. He brings a better kicking game and is a fine alternate goal kicker, but for all the talk of being an alternate play maker its something he just doesn't seem to actually do

In the case of Brown and Nowell the lack of absolute top pace is OK, as long as you do have a Watson and/or a May so that you have someone who does have it somewhere in the back 3.

May has done more in 5 mins than Goode has in 20 caps.....

Goode clearly doesn't haven't the attributes I.e. Pace and physicality.

I'm actually not a huge May fan but he's had some very good games for England. He has all the attributes required to be world class, he just needs to engage brain at times.

Can we not just say he doesn't have the attributes to play the same way at full back as Brown, he's clearly very talented and with the right wingers and game plan could be very good. Has he really performed poorly for England because of the lack of pace and physicality? Not really for me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can we not just say he doesn't have the attributes to play the same way at full back as Brown, he's clearly very talented and with the right wingers and game plan could be very good. Has he really performed poorly for England because of the lack of pace and physicality? Not really for me.

The question is why would you play someone who has been 'not poor' (in spite of limitations) at test level over someone who has all the physical elements needed for a top class player in Watson? Goode's strengths are negated against top international opposition, he reads the game incredibly well and exploits broken defences but when you play the top defences the opportunities are so few and far between that the negatives of the player outweigh the positives. Goode will excel vs lower/middle tier nations but against the best he is ineffective and therefore a waste of a place in the squad imo.

May is surplus to requirement atm with the depth England have on the wing but did prove under Lancaster that he can perform at test level (after numerous average performances) so shouldn't be discounted once back to full fitness.

My back three would be 11. Nowell 14. Ashton 15. Watson. Rocko and Wade would also be in the mix.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can we not just say he doesn't have the attributes to play the same way at full back as Brown, he's clearly very talented and with the right wingers and game plan could be very good. Has he really performed poorly for England because of the lack of pace and physicality? Not really for me.

Its difficult to properly assess someone just on the impression created by watching them on TV - without looking at the stats. Obviously Goode is a different kind of FB to Brown and Foden and he's going to be best playing the kicking game. The problem is that when I think of Goode in internationals I think maybe he tries to run too often and then end up getting hammered in the tackle.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can we not just say he doesn't have the attributes to play the same way at full back as Brown, he's clearly very talented and with the right wingers and game plan could be very good. Has he really performed poorly for England because of the lack of pace and physicality? Not really for me.

I've not suggested Brown.

He doesn't have the attributes to be an International fullback full stop. Yes he's played poorly because he lacks the pace and physicality. If he had these attributes he'd be a star.....he doesn't.

emontagu wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can we not just say he doesn't have the attributes to play the same way at full back as Brown, he's clearly very talented and with the right wingers and game plan could be very good. Has he really performed poorly for England because of the lack of pace and physicality? Not really for me.

The question is why would you play someone who has been 'not poor' (in spite of limitations) at test level over someone who has all the physical elements needed for a top class player in Watson? Goode's strengths are negated against top international opposition, he reads the game incredibly well and exploits broken defences but when you play the top defences the opportunities are so few and far between that the negatives of the player outweigh the positives. Goode will excel vs lower/middle tier nations but against the best he is ineffective and therefore a waste of a place in the squad imo.

May is surplus to requirement atm with the depth England have on the wing but did prove under Lancaster that he can perform at test level (after numerous average performances) so shouldn't be discounted once back to full fitness.

My back three would be 11. Nowell 14. Ashton 15. Watson. Rocko and Wade would also be in the mix.

Beacuse at the moment he's a better full back. He also played well vs NZ. Yet you would include Ashton who was below par for quite a fair while.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can we not just say he doesn't have the attributes to play the same way at full back as Brown, he's clearly very talented and with the right wingers and game plan could be very good. Has he really performed poorly for England because of the lack of pace and physicality? Not really for me.

I've not suggested Brown.

He doesn't have the attributes to be an International fullback full stop. Yes he's played poorly because he lacks the pace and physicality. If he had these attributes he'd be a star.....he doesn't.

I'll put this in the no matter what he does Pooly has made up his mind column!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

emontagu wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can we not just say he doesn't have the attributes to play the same way at full back as Brown, he's clearly very talented and with the right wingers and game plan could be very good. Has he really performed poorly for England because of the lack of pace and physicality? Not really for me.

The question is why would you play someone who has been 'not poor' (in spite of limitations) at test level over someone who has all the physical elements needed for a top class player in Watson? Goode's strengths are negated against top international opposition, he reads the game incredibly well and exploits broken defences but when you play the top defences the opportunities are so few and far between that the negatives of the player outweigh the positives. Goode will excel vs lower/middle tier nations but against the best he is ineffective and therefore a waste of a place in the squad imo.

May is surplus to requirement atm with the depth England have on the wing but did prove under Lancaster that he can perform at test level (after numerous average performances) so shouldn't be discounted once back to full fitness.

My back three would be 11. Nowell 14. Ashton 15. Watson. Rocko and Wade would also be in the mix.

Beacuse at the moment he's a better full back. He also played well vs NZ. Yet you would include Ashton who was below par for quite a fair while.

The difference being that Ashton has the physical elements needed to be a top international winger. Goode does not have the physical elements needed to be a top full back. Ashton, if utilised correctly, is an extremely effective winger hence his inclusion.

Goode is currently masking his lack of pace via his excellent reading of the game and positioning. However he still has that lack of pace and will be exploited vs top opposition. The difference between club rugby vs knock out international rugby cannot be understated.

Give the game time to Watson and let him develop into a top class full back.

Ah, but he consistently failed to deliver for England before being dropped and his replacements have fared better. He also hates tackling.

Goode hasn't been exploited for pace as far as I can remember.

Are you kidding me 71/2??? Goode has been bumped off tackles and burnt for pace countless times.

It's not about changing minds. He's got 20 caps and proved he's not good enough, what more do you want?

It's all very similar to the Steffan Armitage conversation from a year or 2 back.

I'd prefer us to focus on working out who is most likely to be on best bet in 2019 and give them some time

lostinwales wrote:It's all very similar to the Steffan Armitage conversation from a year or 2 back.

I'd prefer us to focus on working out who is most likely to be on best bet in 2019 and give them some time

I'd prefer to do that after the rankings have been decided.

Not joking at all. As I said he needs a run of games at full back, real chances. He's nearing the end if he doesn't play well but I honestly don't remember him getting bumped off tackles or getting beat for pace for England.

Every game I recall it mate.

Do we give him another 10/20 caps then finally realise again he's not good enough?

I just think we'd be wasting our time when we could be finding a genuine replacement.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah, but he consistently failed to deliver for England before being dropped and his replacements have fared better. He also hates tackling.

Goode hasn't been exploited for pace as far as I can remember.

A top international fullback (pace and positioning) would have got to Cummins.

The Ashton argument is defunct, England have a depth of talent at wing and multiple players could step up. I would take Ashton but he is interchangeable with Roko, Wade or Yarde with minor differences depending on game plan.

Fullback is where the squad is light and imo Watson is not only the best option we have to develop a top international 15 before 2019 but would also perform very well in the short term with no detriment to our world cup rankings.

No I think we give him a run of 3 or 4 games this year and see what he does. If you recall it every game he's played for England, well, leI think you're just saying that as a joke to emphasise your point.

You could repeat minor mistakes across the board for everyone like that emon, and far, far more for Ashton.

Exactly Emon.

Good example of lack of pace and physicality actually. I've seen it countless times with Goode, you could make a reel.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No I think we give him a run of 3 or 4 games this year and see what he does. If you recall it every game he's played for England, well, leI think you're just saying that as a joke to emphasise your point.

Complete waste of time.

I obviously don't recall every game, but I recall screaming at the TV pretty much every game and wonderful wtf this guy is playing for England (and Youngs obviously )

I have a feeling you're normally quite hoarse watching England Sgt! And obviously Newcastle!

No 7&1/2 wrote:You could repeat minor mistakes across the board for everyone like that emon, and far, far more for Ashton.

But its not a minor mistake its a fundamental lack of pace exposed at international level, usually masked by good positioning vs slower opposition.

Even if you disregard the number of chances Goode has had at test level it doesn't make sense to play a player with limited physical abilities when you have an alternative with all the elements needed to be a top international 15.

I would understand if there was no alternative to Goode but there absolutely is.

But who isn't as good at 15, and has settled now and producing at wing. You still have Nowell in your side, he's too slow as well surely? You have Ashton who doesn't want to tackle and produced very poorly for England for about 12-18 months. We drop Ford and Wade as being too small surely? We can go through the entire squad and pick out an area they are poor at. Slash and burn.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But who isn't as good at 15, and has settled now and producing at wing. You still have Nowell in your side, he's too slow as well surely? You have Ashton who doesn't want to tackle and produced very poorly for England for about 12-18 months. We drop Ford and Wade as being too small surely? We can go through the entire squad and pick out an area they are poor at. Slash and burn.

But that's the point; Watson has the ability to be much better than Goode at 15, why settle for the player with lesser potential especially when England has such deep cover at wing?

It certainly wont rock the boat moving Watson to fullback, he'll perform there just as he has at wing because he a gifted player. If anything being able to run the ball back from 15 will suit his style more given his excellent step at pace. One of the other wingers will step up in his place.

Regarding Nowell, Ashton, Ford and Wade; their strengths are still effective against the top international opposition despite other flaws. Unfortunately for Goode his strengths are negated against top international opposition. As discussed the gaps just aren't there as they are at club level, the main source of his line breaks. If the gaps aren't there we usually see him caught in contact and driven back in the tackle.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I have a feeling you're normally quite hoarse watching England Sgt! And obviously Newcastle!

Haha, you're not wrong mate.

Nowell is hardly slow. He's Usain Bolt compared to Goode!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nowell is hardly slow. He's Usain Bolt compared to Goode!

As said before Nowell is quick but there are quicker. On the other hand he tackles above his weight, has a fantastic work rate for a wing, and is also hard to put down.

emontagu wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But who isn't as good at 15, and has settled now and producing at wing. You still have Nowell in your side, he's too slow as well surely? You have Ashton who doesn't want to tackle and produced very poorly for England for about 12-18 months. We drop Ford and Wade as being too small surely? We can go through the entire squad and pick out an area they are poor at. Slash and burn.

But that's the point; Watson has the ability to be much better than Goode at 15, why settle for the player with lesser potential especially when England has such deep cover at wing?

It certainly wont rock the boat moving Watson to fullback, he'll perform there just as he has at wing because he a gifted player. If anything being able to run the ball back from 15 will suit his style more given his excellent step at pace. One of the other wingers will step up in his place.

Regarding Nowell, Ashton, Ford and Wade; their strengths are still effective against the top international opposition despite other flaws. Unfortunately for Goode his strengths are negated against top international opposition. As discussed the gaps just aren't there as they are at club level, the main source of his line breaks. If the gaps aren't there we usually see him caught in contact and driven back in the tackle.

Ashton hasn't for a long while, and as said Goode has played well against some top opposition. I just wonder what people really want to see from Goode.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I just wonder what people really want to see from Goode.

All the assets a top level international full back should have.

Imo he doesn't have them.

Think we'll have to agree to disagree.

As Emon says really.

I'm not looking for anything from him as he's proved time and time again he's not good enough.

I want a FB who scares defences. Can cut through teams and counter at pace. Must be solid defensivley, strong under the high ball and be an effective last line of defence.

Watson is the obvious candidate.

There's 3 types of FBs that work for me

1. The ball player, tactical kicker, can step into first receiver easily - eg Le Roux, Dagg on form
2. The counter attacker who'll leave anyone for dead with any kind of space - Folau, Hogg
3. The rock solid defender, never miss a high ball, massive boot - Brown, Kearney, Halfpenny

Even the slowest FBs on that list (Brown/Kearney) are arguably quicker than Goode. They also offer the additional solidity that Goode doesn't and also are excellent at taking attacking high balls

Goode lacks the pace of the WLR/Dagg types, and is obviously not in the second category

Watson may well be able to step up into the same level as Folau/Dagg, and that's what we should be looking for imo