French Open Day 2 - Taylor swift? Quick Sands? Beck fast?

First topic message reminder :

Schedule - http://www.rolandgarros.com/en_FR/scores/schedule/index.html

It Must Be Love wrote:

Born Slippy wrote:I've only seen this set? What exactly was Andy doing in sets 1 and 2?

Stepanek was playing very well, not red-lining, but playing intelligently and volleying very well.
Murray's depth was really off, and making many unforced errors of normal groundstrokes. Kept moaning to his box about his leg being dead and the weather.

a) A constant criticism of Murray is how he gives the game away. His constant moaning at his box about his leg being dead, would have given heart to Stepanek and he would have purposely exploited this to get Murray scampering around the court.
b) I remember earlier in Murray's career he lost early in a grand slam then complained of dead legs. In that loss he said he was absolutely clueless why that was so despite all his preparations being identical to other matches. That was something concerning - in that he didn't have a clue what might have been the reason.
c) Murray always wears his heart on his sleeve from moaning at his players box and giving the game away regarding his condition to his opponent, to his antics at bellowing to himself and towards his opponent when winning a set or breaking under pressurised circumstances.
d) Stepanek will have a great chance tomorrow. If he can break in the fourth and take that set to a tie-breaker. Fitness won't be a problem. Stepanek is old enough not to get "worried". He knows he is not the favourite to win, he knows about Murray's stamina. Stepanek clearly enjoys his tennis and enjoys the limelight. When you enjoy your tennis you tend to forget about the nerves. I suppose Stepanek's main focus this tournament is aiming to win the doubles and pulling off a shock or two in the singles.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

temporary21 wrote:CC is exactly right. As soon as Murray or Nadal arent doing well, its the same crew coming in with the same old crap. Its been going on for years and years and years and its just gotten so tiring, singling out signle players they hate for constant belittling.
Clearly some poeple only come here to slag off, and it brings the whole forum down. No doubt is Andy wins theyll all become suddenly busy and unable to post... till Novak or Rafa start to struggle... its the sort of thing we dont need anymore.

That post hits the jackpot.

Not necessarily true.  Quite often it is frustration from Murray supporters or ex-Murray supporters who have "given up on him".  Anyway Murray is a multimillionaire probably worth > $0.1 billion from prize money and endorsements etc, he can handle it.  Calling this "hate" I think is wrong.  The only "hateful" comments I have seen directed at players seem to have been a few posters in the past who saw Nadal as someone who was destroying the sport with his style of play.

Frustration, and slagging off are two very different things and there clear as day to separate, typically the slagging off comments are hypocritical and spiteful. Getting annoyed at Murray giving the game away by losing his temper is one thing. Calling him a girl for his call out or calling him a mug is obviously another.
Were not stupid, over years of eyeballing, we can tell the difference, and what poster does what. Just watch what happens when one of the big three go out over these 2 weeks, itll be like clockwork...

Very surprised at Cilic being knocked out, that too, after a Clay final in Geneva vs. Wawrinka.

Murray needs to keep his focus and head together, if he wants to win his match v Stepanek.

This year Radek Stepanek has played nine matches on the ATP World Tour (singles), winning four and losing five.

Murrays record against him since 2012:
2016 R32  Madrid Masters clay  Murray  beats Stepanek  7-6(3) 3-6 6-1  
2014 R16  Queen's grass  Stepanek  beats Murray  7-6(10) 6-2    
2012 QF  Shanghai Masters hard  Murray beats  4-6 6-2 6-3

Conclusion: it seems that Stepanek's game matches Murray's game quite well as he has managed to beat him and gain sets off him.  

Stepanek after the overnight rest should be expected to be competitive tomorrow.  Andy Murray was keen to go off during the fourth set when Stepanek started finding his form after a loss of 9 games in a row: 6-3 6-3 0-6 0-3 to 6-3 6-3 0-6 2-4

Nore Staat wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

temporary21 wrote:CC is exactly right. As soon as Murray or Nadal arent doing well, its the same crew coming in with the same old crap. Its been going on for years and years and years and its just gotten so tiring, singling out signle players they hate for constant belittling.
Clearly some poeple only come here to slag off, and it brings the whole forum down. No doubt is Andy wins theyll all become suddenly busy and unable to post... till Novak or Rafa start to struggle... its the sort of thing we dont need anymore.

That post hits the jackpot.

Not necessarily true.  Quite often it is frustration from Murray supporters or ex-Murray supporters who have "given up on him".  Anyway Murray is a multimillionaire probably worth > $0.1 billion from prize money and endorsements etc, he can handle it.  Calling this "hate" I think is wrong.  The only "hateful" comments I have seen directed at players seem to have been a few posters in the past who saw Nadal as someone who was destroying the sport with his style of play.

Of course Murray can handle it but that is not the point here.

The point here is that the French Open has had two days of discussion threads with lots of top matches and even drama of Stan being on the brink of a First Round exit as reigning champion but battling back but not one post from BB - nothing, zilch. He surfaces solely to back up a renowned WUM in calling Murray embarrassing for fist pumps and 'Come ons' opponents errors even though every player in the sport has done it at one time or another. I have had this discussion with BB before and provided the evidence of even his demigod Roger doing it. Therefore why single out one player for doing it? Considering it was BB's first comment on the French Open it is pretty clear what it was. A poor show unless we all now start calling every player embarrassing for doing exactly what they have always done.

Consistency is what is needed here. Either do not mention one player when he does it or be prepared for a forum full of posters berating every player in every match for doing it.

temporary21 wrote:Frustration, and slagging off are two very different things and there clear as day to separate

I personally do not care one way or another about Andy's outbursts, but if someone dislikes them and views them as a good opportunity to criticize Andy that is perfectly fine.

Your attacking of BB in response is much closer to being offside the site rules than BB's criticism of Andy.  That said, I personally do not have a problem with your attacks on BB as long as you do not let your dislike of BB's posts color your modding.

Born Slippy wrote:

lydian wrote:The saving grace for Murray here is that they are unlikely to finish tonight (surely Murray won't lose another set tonight anyway) and then tomorrow he'll be recharged. On the negative side it means he won't be able to wear Stepanek down as the match would be played in 2 halves with a break. Stepanek could feel tired tomorrow though sleeping on a 2 set advantage - a lot of pressure overnight to see it through...a funny old game is this tennis lark. But come what may he's a tough cookie. However, it's not over yet - getting that 3rd is always the toughest!

That's a massive negative not a saving grace for Murray.

Agree with BS.  No way would Radek win it if they finished Monday.  He will probably lose anyway, but now he has a chance.

Interesting. The first round and already both Andy and Stan find themselves in nailbiters. Imagine if they both lost, the bottom half - already the weaker half - would have been left with a gaping hole.

summerblues wrote:

temporary21 wrote:Frustration, and slagging off are two very different things and there clear as day to separate

I personally do not care one way or another about Andy's outbursts, but if someone dislikes them and views them as a good opportunity to criticize Andy that is perfectly fine.

4Your attacking of BB in response is much closer to being offside the site rules than BB's criticism of Andy.  That said, I personally do not have a problem with your attacks on BB as long as you do not let your dislike of BB's posts color your modding.

But this is not about BB disliking Murray's rants as is blatantly obvious. We all know every player does them - no two ways about that so why the singling out? And why no posts whatsoever from BB on what we are here to discuss - the tennis? I mean Stan's match was a nail biter, Nick Kyrgios match, Edmund win and so much more passed without comment. BB can offer so much more to the forum than lowering himself to the level he did. Sad.

summerblues wrote:

temporary21 wrote:Frustration, and slagging off are two very different things and there clear as day to separate

I personally do not care one way or another about Andy's outbursts, but if someone dislikes them and views them as a good opportunity to criticize Andy that is perfectly fine.

Your attacking of BB in response is much closer to being offside the site rules than BB's criticism of Andy.  That said, I personally do not have a problem with your attacks on BB as long as you do not let your dislike of BB's posts color your modding.

Also perfectly valid to pull them up for it. Pretty obvious that Andy was only firing himself up rather than any gamesmanship (and the idea that Stepanek of all people might be put off by someone saying "let's go" is quite laughable). Nothing whatsoever wrong with what he was doing and I presume it worked, as I can only presume he started playing a lot better. Good to see him convert negative energy into positive. Good to also see him give a thumbs up for Stepanek's round the net shot.

CC:. But there is no requirement that posters be impartial. BB has every right to single out Andy if he wishes to do so - even more so if he thinks Andy does it more than others.

BS: Certainly, that is what forum is for. I have no problem with CC/temp taking the opposite side of what BB is saying. Temp I think tends to make it more personal than really appropriate but even that is not too far off limits. Where it does become an issue is when temp attempts to "moderate" the debate based on those personal preferences. Not done here, but temp has done it multiple times before.

I don't blame anyone for focusing on just a few players rather than watching matches at random.  

I am not that much of a tennis connoisseur to devote my time on it and I don't have a television.  So I prioritise my interest, those that I keep a tab on and sort of follow.  That means I focus on the brits - men and women with a big focus on Murray - the saviour of British tennis.  I also keeping my fingers crossed that Johanna Konta will make it into the top ten and make it to the final weeks of slams.

I also focus on those men that have a chance of winning the tournament: Djokovic, Wawrinka, Nadal, Nishikori ...  I am also keeping an eye on the young guns thanks to the thread by Born Slippy as well as the 850 thread by Lydian --> looking to see what's on the horizon that may dethrone the aging top 3+1 and the Djokovic who has turned the sport into a 1+ the good + the bad.

Looking at others comments I think that seems to be the focus of many.  I can't see any discussion or comments on the women's matches and so forth.

summerblues wrote:CC:. But there is no requirement that posters be impartial.  BB has every right to single out Andy if he wishes to do so - even more so if he thinks Andy does it more than others.

BS: Certainly, that is what forum is for.  I have no problem with CC/temp taking the opposite side of what BB is saying.  Temp I think tends to make it more personal than really appropriate but even that is not too far off limits.   Where it does become an issue is when temp attempts to "moderate" the debate based on those personal preferences.  Not done here, but temp has done it multiple times before.

By all means vendettas are fine then as that is what singling out becomes. When all players do something yet one player gets singled out and labelled embarrassing amongst other things then it shold be asked why the observation was made?? Obviously not against any moral codes that BB holds as he doesn't pick up on it when any other player does it.

This debate (or should I now say argument) reminds me of the time violation
argument (now a sticky) I too can vouch for the fact that one player does get
singled out when others (true not so blatantly obvious) were/are also guilty.
But then players like Nadal and Murray are easy targets on 606.and the fans of both see this
as a bit unfair. Criticism is selective on 606.depending on the player under discussion.
Or how badly the poster wants to put the knife in.

I have made many a criticism of Andy for his outbursts but out of frustration
rather than anything else. If his yelling is to psych himself up ..Im not opposed to
that most, if not all players, do it at some time.. Maybe Andy more than most.
My criticism is when he berates himself and his team because that is self destructive in my
book.Today will, I think, see another Andy on court.

Vendettas and singling out, lead to wind up comments, where someone comes in after someone loses, sh*tposts about them, and leaves having peed off all the fans of them.
If we spot that kind of posting, i.e hate speech due to a vendetta, you absolutely ARE NOT within your rights to do that. Its a basic lack of respect for the other posters of the forum.

Its also the lack of any consistency, people would go mental with that kind of posting if it was Federer who was losing. In fact it happened once, socal made a federer excuses thread, and I let it slide because people didnt want me to interject soo much, I was then given a threatening pm BY THE SAME PERSON WHO TOLD ME THAT. Its the two faced nature thats the worst...


No idea what you mean about moderating, noones been punished or even directly warned, so obviously it hasnt affected anything, thats just paranoia...

CaledonianCraig wrote:

YvonneT wrote:I don't get anyone getting riled by bogbrush's comments. If you like Murray, then either you don't mind his on-court behaviour (so you simply have a different view from him) or else you don't like the on-court behaviour but accept it as flaw (so you agree with BB). Either way, attempting to bring Federer into the argument is rather futile - of course, he'll occasionally be vocal or whatever but he's nothing like Murray.

I don't like the worst of Murray's behaviour - when he's aggressive towards his box - but am fairly ambivalent about how loudly a point is celebrated (UE or not). If I like the player, it's fine - if not, it's a big irritant!

I think Murray is slight favourite tomorrow - but I don't underestimate Steps at all. He was fit enough to get through 3 rounds of qualifying. If Murray does get through, he's got a kind R2 in a wildcard - but then likely a couple of big servers where dropping a set or 2 is quite possible, and then you do get a cumulative effect. But this match alone, yes he can certainly recover from.

Have a good look at this French Open - all of the match days. Not one post at all from BB about the tennis and his first post is to back up a renowned WUM in berating Murray for basically doing what every player in tennis does. Not one post commenting on the many cracking matches there has been - nothing. First post is to leap in to berate Murray for doing what every player does. Poor show.

Yeah, because it's been non-stop tennis from all the stars for ages hasn't it?

And hardly any player rants on sounding like a big girl like he did yesterday.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

temporary21 wrote:CC is exactly right. As soon as Murray or Nadal arent doing well, its the same crew coming in with the same old crap. Its been going on for years and years and years and its just gotten so tiring, singling out signle players they hate for constant belittling.
Clearly some poeple only come here to slag off, and it brings the whole forum down. No doubt is Andy wins theyll all become suddenly busy and unable to post... till Novak or Rafa start to struggle... its the sort of thing we dont need anymore.

That post hits the jackpot.

Bless the pair of you. It's lovely to watch you finding comfort in each others embrace.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

summerblues wrote:CC:. But there is no requirement that posters be impartial.  BB has every right to single out Andy if he wishes to do so - even more so if he thinks Andy does it more than others.

BS: Certainly, that is what forum is for.  I have no problem with CC/temp taking the opposite side of what BB is saying.  Temp I think tends to make it more personal than really appropriate but even that is not too far off limits.   Where it does become an issue is when temp attempts to "moderate" the debate based on those personal preferences.  Not done here, but temp has done it multiple times before.

By all means vendettas are fine then as that is what singling out becomes. When all players do something yet one player gets singled out and labelled embarrassing amongst other things then it shold be asked why the observation was made?? Obviously not against any moral codes that BB holds as he doesn't pick up on it when any other player does it.

"Vendetta"

* snork *

YvonneT wrote:I don't get anyone getting riled by bogbrush's comments. If you like Murray, then either you don't mind his on-court behaviour (so you simply have a different view from him) or else you don't like the on-court behaviour but accept it as flaw (so you agree with BB). Either way, attempting to bring Federer into the argument is rather futile - of course, he'll occasionally be vocal or whatever but he's nothing like Murray.

I don't like the worst of Murray's behaviour - when he's aggressive towards his box - but am fairly ambivalent about how loudly a point is celebrated (UE or not). If I like the player, it's fine - if not, it's a big irritant!

I think Murray is slight favourite tomorrow - but I don't underestimate Steps at all. He was fit enough to get through 3 rounds of qualifying. If Murray does get through, he's got a kind R2 in a wildcard - but then likely a couple of big servers where dropping a set or 2 is quite possible, and then you do get a cumulative effect. But this match alone, yes he can certainly recover from.

I have a fairly bad feeling about today. Stepanek has won the first set in 4 of the last 6 matches against Andy. It takes Andy time to find a rhythm against him. I think Andy will hold on in the 4th but will start the fifth slowly. If he goes a break down he's bound to get even more nervous. Radek to seal a famous victory 6-3 in the 5th for me.

To be honest, Stepanek is probably one of the last guys you want to face in this situation as he's generally a fast starter, aggressive and positively seeks out opportunities...he's not one to wait for the opponent to fold. The blessing for Murray is that he has 2-3 games in the 4th to get going for the 5th and obviously a better ground game. It really comes down to how well he starts and how well he plays under key points...I have it 75% Murray : 25% Stepanek.

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

temporary21 wrote:CC is exactly right. As soon as Murray or Nadal arent doing well, its the same crew coming in with the same old crap. Its been going on for years and years and years and its just gotten so tiring, singling out signle players they hate for constant belittling.
Clearly some poeple only come here to slag off, and it brings the whole forum down. No doubt is Andy wins theyll all become suddenly busy and unable to post... till Novak or Rafa start to struggle... its the sort of thing we dont need anymore.

That post hits the jackpot.

Bless the pair of you. It's lovely to watch you finding comfort in each others embrace.

Now who is being a "big girl" ?

Make comments that have been made on this thread about Federer or Djoko and the forum implodes ..jeeze

Indeed...this is nothing vs. the tirades against Nadal a while back.
Isn't this all a bit of a storm in a teacup though?

The forecast on 606v2 is for more storms, of the teacup variety.

The only thing worse than being talked about is being shot in the head is not being talked about.

Just check out other forums and one finds that this forum is still going and is sedate. One needs to be tolerant of different types of commentator approach: the carefully thought out approach, the political correct approach, the waffle approach, the scientific approach, the emotional approach, the blunt approach, ... It takes all sorts to make a lively forum.

Yes but the wind up approach had a major drawback. We often get the instance that supporters of certain players begin to dread coming on the forums when they lose for fear of being wound up or seeing these blatant hypocrisies.

That's what happened on the old 606, and it is NOT a good thing ever.

There's an obvious distinction between criticism, frustration comments, and just coming in to wind up and negative talk.

One and two Are already well tolerated here, the third is not, and no matter how much people feign ignorance, it's clear as day with how personal they get with their comments in particular when proven Wrong which category they fall under

Specifically. Getting Sore and resorting to 5 year old personal insults because people took offence to you reading their comments wrong and trying to stir up trouble, isn't good, and needs to be grown out of.

Plenty of guys here hate Murrays motormouth but express it in a constructive way.

Absolutely NS...a completely 'politically correct' forum is usually the death knell of activity.

Temp...kind of yes...kind of no...the use of language applied is interesting though.

"1 & 2 are well tolerated here..." - well why shouldn't they be? Sounds a little autocratic tbh.

Criticism/frustration, i.e. forms of opinion expression, are what makes forums goes round.

Yes re: stopping wummery (well the aggressive kind, a little bit of leg pulling is surely ok from time to time...as would happen in any environment) but we SHOULD NOT stop negative talk per se which is different from blatant wummery.

If its personally negative then sure...potentially cut it out. However, its a fine line between exercising an opinion on someone's posts, e.g. "I think your posts are ridiculous for x, y, z" are fine (but negative...) vs. "I think you're a complete numpty who always posts crap" (negative but not fine).

Finally...ask Nadal fans about dreading to come on here in the past...its why I stayed away for a long time...but nothing on here now is anything like those days.

Finally #2, lol JHM.

It's a grey area I admit. The key is to convince that you're on the more reasonable side of that line. But over many years of the same pattern, you begin to see the difference between them. When it's so blatant, it shouldn't be a surprise we don't like it

lydian wrote:Absolutely NS...a completely 'politically correct' forum is usually the death knell of activity.

Temp...kind of yes...kind of no...the use of language applied is interesting though.

"1 & 2 are well tolerated here..." - well why shouldn't they be? Sounds a little autocratic tbh.

Criticism/frustration, i.e. forms of opinion expression, are what makes forums goes round.

Yes re: stopping wummery (well the aggressive kind, a little bit of leg pulling is surely ok from time to time...as would happen in any environment) but we SHOULD NOT stop negative talk per se which is different from blatant wummery.

If its personally negative then sure...potentially cut it out. However, its a fine line between exercising an opinion on someone's posts, e.g. "I think your posts are ridiculous for x, y, z" are fine (but negative...) vs. "I think you're a complete numpty who always posts crap" (negative but not fine).

Finally...ask Nadal fans about dreading to come on here in the past...its why I stayed away for a long time...but nothing on here now is anything like those days.

Finally #2, lol JHM.

Yes I second that .. it was almost to the point of bullying if you so much as defended Nadal ... and even when you made the explanation that you agreed with the criticism made of him but argued that there could well be a reason.. you were accused of being a fan girl.. and once the doping allegations took hold it was plain awful. Thankfully that has now been stopped  I agree that leg pulling and banter lightens the tone and should be tolerated. Personal insults are a no no and unneccessary

Digging up old trench wars is of no benefit to anyone.

I think the v2 in the site name is worth reconsidering. Where is LKv2 when you need him?

Kerber. Good win for Bertens, similar to Cilic v Trungelliti.

Yes HN...and the sticky above still remains on time violation (although not used now) which was always a battering ram for having a go at Nadal too.
LF, its not "digging up trench wars"...which is almost inflammatory in just saying that...let it lie for goodness sake or you'll set me off!
Its to emphasise that "problems" on the site today are nothing like they used to be...

Anyway...tennis to be watched...and Murray in particular!

Yes we will get back to the tennis but not before I have had my say
Guarantee that LF will put her oar in to inflame the situation.
Its not "digging up on trench wars" as you so chose to call it. .
It was merely continuing the discussion that ANOTHER moderator brought up. end of

Exactly...and a touch more moderation 'back in the day' to prevent the trenches being formed wouldn't have gone amiss...

I did say a few days ago that players that play the tournament the week before the slam and do well often suffer a lull and crash out early in the slam, whether due to physical tiredness or emotion spent or extra travel or whatever else.

Cilic crashed out.

Thiem laboring a bit more than expected in R1 even though he played just 4 matches last week, the first three in straight sets.

Stan almost suffering a shock defeat.

Let's see how Zverev does in the first round or two (the last of last week's 4 finalists, who played 5 matches all of which he lost a set so more time on court).

Good point HB.

temporary21 wrote:It's a grey area I admit. The key is to convince that you're on the more reasonable side of that line. But over many years of the same pattern, you begin to see the difference between them. When it's so blatant, it shouldn't be a surprise we don't like it

Well it's wummery you should be issuing bans.

If it isn't - and you absolutely would be wrong to call me that for my posts when Murray first started his outbursts - then you shouldn't be alleging it.

There might even be a forum rule about making such personal allegations.

Nore Staat wrote:The only thing worse than being talked about is being shot in the head is not being talked about.

Just check out other forums and one finds that this forum is still going and is sedate.  One needs to be tolerant of different types of commentator approach: the carefully thought out approach, the political correct approach, the waffle approach, the scientific approach, the emotional approach, the blunt approach, ...  It takes all sorts to make a lively forum.

I like it an Oscar Wilde quote, sans being shot in the head. 

I was traveling so I missed the commotion but I agree we got a good forum, I like to think of my own approach as the genius/visionary approach.

BB, has been a bad boy it seems according to the Murray fans. Normally, I don't defend BB, not because of past history, but because he likes this stuff. Trust me I fought with man tooth and nail for I think the better part three years. I am partial to an occasional dust up myself. 

But here I will defend his position out of consistency. I am unwilling to give up my rights to call Federer, the swoosh wearing pomposity. If BB doesn't like Murray, I hate to say it, but in the interests of a free and open forum we just got to take it, ignore it, or do what I do dish it right back. Of course racism, sexism, homophobia, religious bigotry I think is a place we all can agree should be off bounds. But dissing players you dislike is fun, we all do it, so I say fire away.

By the way my issues with Jahu where never over his jokes at Djokovic. 

I do back CC and Temp on one point that at some point the poster has to use discretion and not beat dead horses because that is boring, not because I care about the already dead horse.

I think Socal has it about right. I think it depends on the nature of the comment. When someone said Murray was "barking like a dog" or something like that that was offensive, perhaps not enough to be deleted or anything, but it was a bit personal and offensive.

Murray clearly celebrates his opponents errors and has done for years, not in a really crass way, he only does it on set point and break point mostly when you could argue he is celebrating the set or break but it is still not something I've liked.

First up - sorry laverfan as did say I'd say no more on this but just need to clarify my position.

Murray was called 'embarrassing' for doing what every player has done - fist pump and 'Come ons' and yes even on opponent errors. Why he is hauled up I'd love to know why? Stepanek did it yesterday as did probably every other player. Hell Stepanek was spitting as well but still lets forego this. Bottom line is either lets open up a thread on outing fist pumpers and 'Come on' shouters EVERYWHERE or leave it out. Johnny Mac said himself it is fair game and look at Step and Andy's warm embrace at the end - neither were offended in the slightest. Come to think of it even the normally moody French crowd weren't booing as soon as there were 'Come ons' or fist pumps. If it so offends BB then fair enough - he can start a thread going across the board attacking every tennis player in the world for this practice and not just Murray. And by the way BB I am still awaiting your views on how at least one tennis match at this French Open has gone. Go on give it a go  - is it really that difficult?

Okay laverfan that is my final FINAL say on this.

CaledonianCraig wrote:First up - sorry laverfan as did say I'd say no more on this but just need to clarify my position.

Murray was called 'embarrassing' for doing what every player has done - fist pump and 'Come ons' and yes even on opponent errors. Why he is hauled up I'd love to know why? Stepanek did it yesterday as did probably every other player. Hell Stepanek was spitting as well but still lets forego this. Bottom line is either lets open up a thread on outing fist pumpers and 'Come on' shouters EVERYWHERE or leave it out. Johnny Mac said himself it is fair game and look at Step and Andy's warm embrace at the end - neither were offended in the slightest. Come to think of it even the normally moody French crowd weren't booing as soon as there were 'Come ons' or fist pumps. If it so offends BB then fair enough - he can start a thread going across the board attacking every tennis player in the world for this practice and not just Murray. And by the way BB I am still awaiting your views on how at least one tennis match at this French Open has gone. Go on give it a go  - is it really that difficult?

Okay laverfan that is my final FINAL say on this.

"look at Step and Andy's warm embrace at the end" -  Says it all really

I think the point is that it becomes clear what's going on, when a poster starts picking on a player for something that they show no care for against other players. This and the time violation thread it was made perfectly clear that to many, it's just about trying to slag the player, not the principle.

When that happens it means the poster is either trying to bring the forum down with their vendetta, or they are trying to wind people up. Both of those cause fights, which we are perfectly entitled to try and prevent. Feigning ignorance and claiming its a public for so you can do whatever you want isn't a valid defence

socal1976 wrote:BB, has been a bad boy it seems according to the Murray fans. Normally, I don't defend BB, not because of past history, but because he likes this stuff. Trust me I fought with man tooth and nail for I think the better part three years. I am partial to an occasional dust up myself. 

But here I will defend his position out of consistency. I am unwilling to give up my rights to call Federer, the swoosh wearing pomposity. If BB doesn't like Murray, I hate to say it, but in the interests of a free and open forum we just got to take it, ignore it, or do what I do dish it right back. Of course racism, sexism, homophobia, religious bigotry I think is a place we all can agree should be off bounds. But dissing players you dislike is fun, we all do it, so I say fire away.

By the way my issues with Jahu where never over his jokes at Djokovic. 

I do back CC and Temp on one point that at some point the poster has to use discretion and not beat dead horses because that is boring, not because I care about the already dead horse.

The daft thing is you're wrong. I like Murray and I want him to win over Djokovic, Nadal or a number of others. Doesn't stop me noting bad behaviour and calling it.

And today seems to vindicate me that this isn't "right".

temporary21 wrote:I think the point is that it becomes clear what's going on, when a poster starts picking on a player for something that they show no care for against other players. This and the time violation thread it was made perfectly clear that to many, it's just about trying to slag the player, not the principle.

When that happens it means  the poster is either trying to bring the forum down with their vendetta, or they are trying to wind people up. Both of those cause fights, which we are perfectly entitled to try and prevent. Feigning ignorance and claiming its a public for so you can do whatever you want isn't a valid defence

I wish I had your telepathic powers. Or maybe, since you're an appalling judge, maybe not.

temporary21 wrote: [...] the poster is either trying to bring the forum down with their vendetta, or they are trying to wind people up.

But that is not true.  It is perfectly fair for a poster to criticize a player.  And if they wish to criticize a specific player they can do so.  BB's criticism of Andy is perfectly appropriate (even though I personally do not necessarily subscribe to his view).  What is not appropriate, on the other hand, is your implicit accusation of BB of "vendettas" or "wumery".

The difference between BB's posts and your posts is much like the difference between a footballer kicking a ball and another one kicking a player's shin - his are well within the rules, while yours are not.  Technically, your posts arguably constitute a bannable offence.

Poor temp, some of you guys are a bit harsh on him at times. Not sure if he deserves all he gets.

Henman Bill wrote:Poor temp, some of you guys are a bit harsh on him at times. Not sure if he deserves all he gets.

Your right he doesn't . but try as I may to offer support I get caught in the backlash so I have taken a step back cant stand the heat !!!

Henman Bill wrote:Poor temp, some of you guys are a bit harsh on him at times. Not sure if he deserves all he gets.

Hey, the process is always initiated at one end, and not this one. I'd rather leave it until the next time but let's be clear - I don't go starting on him.

Yeah, temp and I had some discussions regarding allegedly inflammatory conduct on my part. I do feel that at times on this site, the one drawback even before temp's moderation involvement is a tendency at moderation slipping into editorializing. I don't want to make it personal about temp, because as I said I felt this was an issue on this site long before temporary ever made an appearance. I don't like being told what topics to post or not post, I think we have be able to slag players we don't like, there has to be some energy and mixing it up or banter if some want to call it wumming, I say that it is the life blood of all internet forums.