The Grass Season

First topic message reminder :

With the grass season underway, I thought we could use a thread to discuss the pre Wimbledon events.

The draws are out for Stuttgart and S'Hertogenbosch, which start properly tomorrow. Both 250s but a noticeable difference in quality. Stuttgart has most of the quality:

Stuttgart

Full Draw 

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/scores/current/stuttgart/321/draws

Anticipated QF

Federer - Troicki
Thiem - Lopez
Simon - Pouille
Kohlschreiber - Cilic

Summary/Prediction


If he's fit, it's hard to look past Federer here. His very first match could be tough though as he will face the big serving Taylor Fritz, if Fritz can get past a qualifier. I suspect it will be Lopez in the SF, with Fed to come through a tough 3 setter. I'm picking Kohlschreiber to come through the other half. Federer to win the final in straights.

Worth looking out for the first round match between Del Potro and Dimitrov. The winner will have a good shot to then beat Pouille and make the QF at least. Stepanek is also playing last round of qualies today - will be a real danger for anyone in R1.

S'Hertorgenbosch

Full Draw

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/scores/current/s-hertogenbosch/440/draws

Anticipated QF

Ferrer - Muller
Karlovic - Seppi
Querrey - Johnson
Mahut - Tomic

Summary/Prediction

A much weaker field, which Ferrer of a couple of years ago would have walked. However, he's been generally poor this year and I don't see him getting past Muller, who I think will then also edge out Ivo in the SF. The other half is very tough with no one really in form. I'm going to pick Querrey to come through. Muller for the title.

summerblues wrote:But even if some of it veers into disingenuous, so what?  Why is the motive of the poster so important

Because we have certain posters on here, who like to come across as cerebral and fair minded, who simply dislike anything about Murray and hence give heavily biased views against him

It's tiresome. Clearly Murray has something, otherwise why would Lendl work with him?

Getting respect for him on here is like pulling teeth

And in fairness it's not much better for Novak, so I fully understand Socal's occasional frustrations (whilst not agreeing when he steps over the mark)

Theres some serious misconception about whats critical and whats overly negative.

Given whats happening, what Lydian said, which was essentially to say Murray got lucky winning the OG due to his opponent, isnt critical is it? Its negative at best, and bitter at worst, and saying it is only going to cause trouble.

You all know this, and you know you wouldnt be like that in real life.

Thats nothing like being critical about Murray, such as lambasting his second serve or feeling his anger gets in the way. Its a huge strawman to think we won't allow the latter because were concerned about comments like the former.

Its also complete b*llocks, which would be better understood if you just talked to us.

YvonneT wrote:I know some people are not too happy to have the moderation questioned, but this recent exchange with Lydian has been too much. Lydian was perfectly civil and took an opinion which was in no way extreme, on a subject regarding a Murray match which Craig brought up himself - and he's told to stop in case it offends one or more Murray fans. And then he's told that he might have personal issues for getting annoyed about that. That really is too much. There's no point in being part of a forum like this without accepting some conflict.

Look I do not want Lydian to go, but please don't be implying that myself, CC etc have suddenly become super-sensitive. We're the biggest critics of Murray - go see what we both wrote after this US defeat last year!!

If you look at the post I was laughing about it was the one, where Lydian has an excuse for the Fed Olympics defeat, but apparently there is no such grace given to Murray for his 2008 US defeat, when it could be argued it was for the same reasons (incidentally, I think both were fair defeats)

If that can't be called into question or /and called disingenuous without some kind of meltdown on these boards, then may be it's time I joined LK etc wherever they are

temporary21 wrote:Its negative at best, and bitter at worst

It could also be correct.

I do not personally subscribe to the view that Andy got somehow specifically lucky to win the titles that he won.  But luck happens, so just on pure principle, the notion that a player wins through luck cannot be dismissed out of hand.  And if it cannot be dismissed out of hand, then surely it is ok to present that view here.

If posters find it hard to stomach such views they can take a breather and come back when they are ready.

Then

Be

Diplomatic about it, maybe dont peddle ONLY that year after year

Thats simple respect for fellow posters 101. Cant do that, then its better for the forum if you go. Everyone else can do it...

Temp, I'm not going to go on and on about this - I do appreciate it's not easy being a moderator. I guess I was just hoping you might read back through what happened on this thread with fresh eyes and see that (a) there was nothing particularly problematic that needed intervention and (b) Lydian's so-called negative view on Murray's win was not even brought up by him initially but by someone else so singling out Lydian for criticism made no sense.

Anyway, I'm just going to keep posting on the stuff that interests me and trying my best to ignore the stuff I find tedious

Oh, if anyone would like to look over my arithmetic which may have got lost on the previous page of this thread, please do!

He is certainly not saying it in a rude way at all.  Beyond that, of course he does not have to be particularly diplomatic about it, and of course he can express that view - and only that view year after year if he wishes so.

The respect for fellow posters means not to attack him in return.  That is where the respect is broken, not on Lydian's side.

Then please also note that
1) We lost someone DIRECTLY due to what was said. By very definition, that requires some kind of intervention
2) Instead of talking it out with me, both posters have decided to just bugger off. Ergo I cant do anything

You are criticizing me for not being able to do the impossible,

Both want opposite things.

I can kind of see the reasons behind them both, CC began the convo, but did not appreciate how it was taken. Also Lydians view went further than just critical, which has caused problems in the past.


I make the point that neither have done anything to to help the flashpoint, extend my hand to offer them one to one convos (During my bloody weekend no less!)

But then both threaten to leave when I dont give them EXACTLY what they want.

Now everyone and their dog is calling ME the bad guy

I am, I think quite understandably, EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY, annoyed!!!

So yeah... maybe dont go on and on about it....

The KEY sb, is Lydians views arent accepted when theyre made about other players

Ill repeat that...

Lydians views arent accepted when theyre made about other players

Ill repeat that...

It is, quite simply, a point of consistency. We WONT have one rule for one set of fans, and another for a different set of fans.

temporary21 wrote:Well that would certainly explain the stressed comments.

Best of luck in court, hope it goes ok

Stressed? Lol...I'm not stressed, I'm having a great Sunday thanks.

Sorry it was a typo, I meant I was stepping ONTO court, a tennis court - an AEGON sponsored tournament.


Banbrotam, sure Murray beat Nadal fair and square in 2008.
At Rotterdam 2009 Nadal was practically on one leg...what's the point of discussing that?

You see my comments are not, and inconveniently I realise for the way some posters want to pigeon hole me, unilateral.

I will always maintain his OG Gold and USO12 were the beneficiary of huge slices of luck.
But that's too inflammatory a statement it would seem.

I also have no problem with his Wimb13 or other titles...so what's the big deal?
Clearly there was one...

Anyway, just wanted to clear up a couple of personal assertions (stressed / court) before I observe temp's "Ciao" on a more permanent basis.

Enjoy Wimbledon all...may the best man (and woman) win.

Good
Best of luck in life...

I'm stunned by the above.

Seriously, if saying a player got lucky is considered beyond the Pale, then this forum is dead.

temporary21 wrote:Now everyone and their dog is calling ME the bad guy

Oh but I hope not.  You have not done anything wrong (well, I think you were wrong in your discussion with Lydian, but it is not like you have taken any action against him).

I really think you would not only do the right thing, but also make your life easier if you tried to stick very closely to what I am suggesting - talking tennis good, attacking fellow posters bad.  That way it would be easier for you to draw the line which is impersonal and where you do not need to express any opinion.

Currently it is an impossible situation.  We as people are naturally biased even with our best efforts.  Just because someone is biased, does not make them ill-intentioned.  Also, different people's biases see things differently.  So even figuring out whether a post is biased requires arbitrary decision-making - let alone trying to figure out if the posters is being intentionally biased.  No matter where you try to split it, someone (or potentially everyone) will be unhappy.

I say, don't even go there as the moderator.  After all, going there you are arguably overstepping your moderator role anyway.  Just keep it process-based.

Well HM, yourr saying one thing, and the other half are saying a different thing

OBVIOUSLY people have taken offence to Lydian airing his views on Murray being lucky too often, without any suggestion of any skill involved.

If we cant talk about that without resolving to dramatic "im leaving" posts, nasty little insults to people, and come to some understanding, then yes, this place is long gone.

temporary21 wrote:The KEY sb, is Lydians views arent accepted when theyre made about other players

Well, they clearly should be.  If, for example, posters think that Fed got lucky with having easy first few slams, and that while a fine player overall, he would have likely ended up with say 5-7 fewer slams if he had been born 5 years later, then obviously people have to be allowed to express that here (undoubtedly wrong though they are )

Yes SB, but when we did that, and just left it, LK left, now CC left.

You dont have that problem because youre not on that side of the fence, but I HAVE to consider the other side too. Do you understand?

People are obviously feeling pushed out by some views dominating other. I have to at the very least TRY to sort that out, but not one guy is willing to talk to me one on one like an adult without declaring theyre out then were lost arent we?

summerblues wrote:

temporary21 wrote:The KEY sb, is Lydians views arent accepted when theyre made about other players

Well, they clearly should be.  If, for example, posters think that Fed got lucky with having easy first few slams, and that while a fine player overall, he would have likely ended up with say 5-7 fewer slams if he had been born 5 years later, then obviously people have to be allowed to express that here (undoubtedly wrong though they are )

But they arent allowed to express that view SB. They get crucified, and extremely aggressively so.

IF you want that to be fair game, itll be anarchy. You need to be careful what you wish for...

Yes temp, I am not suggesting your role is easy

And I realize that even what I am suggesting would in practice still involve gray areas, even though I am presenting it as more-or-less simple and black-and-white.

But I still think it would probably be simpler that way.  I think it is easier to say to CC "you may be right that Lydian is biased but we do allow views even if they are biased" then to say to Lydian "your view is biased and cannot stand".  The former is non-judgmental and I find it hard to believe that CC would not be willing to live with it.  The second one is judgmental and nobody will ever like hearing that.

temporary21 wrote:They get crucified, and extremely aggressively so.

You know I will say the same as I always do.  If posters get attacked aggressively, that is where the line should be drawn.  So, yes, ok to suggest that Fed would have gotten fewer slams, ok to aggressively counter-argue, but the moment it gets personal, it is off-limits.

PS...I see my post was edited with the summary "More personal insults"...what insults? I have tried to be relatively diplomatic throughout this discussion despite various labels being pinned on me. To annoint my leaving with "Good" kind of reinforces why I'm going too.

I actually completely agree with summerblues here, views on players should (as long as posted without breaching overt forum rules) be fine, comments on posters not. I think lines are being blurred and overstepped here and that is what has led to my decision. In fact I even maintain I've done nothing wrong. So what if I say Murray was lucky for a couple of things...I wasn't being vindictive or offensive about it. Anyway, we are where we are...and I really am out of here now. Please don't edit this to make me seem the perennial bad guy here.

Yes but the latter isnt what I said, its been misconstrued as what i said.

What I actually said in essence was
"Your view is biased, but because that same kind of view doesnt get through for other people, we cant really let it through here either"

Remember South Park, its either all ok, or none of it is. Its clear over many years on this forum that all of it ISNT ok, so none of it can be.

Otherwise, im favouring certain people over others, and they start leaving.

As expected, neither of them could be bothered to just listen long enough to get that across.

Had they done what you are doing now, friendly, but frank dialogue, noone would have gone,

But you arent going Lydian, youre still here...

Instead of suggesting everyone else on the forum doesnt have a life like you do, which is personal, and against the rules, AND not helping, maybe cool it and listen and discuss. Sb is doing it, so you can too.

Here it is in a nutshell.

You cant call a player on this forum "just lucky" because it isnt allowed when its another player. Federer specifically, (Nadal too) are the two in question. Its the very reason the GOAT debate got stickied, we had to do something about it.

You HAVENT done anything wrong, but obviously I HAVE to apply what has become a house rule to avoid fights, consistently.

You are both savvy enough to know that the ideal situation doesnt exist here.

Ergo I have to compromise, given cc has gone, its obviously something to address.

One last post to explain here.

I did send you two pm's temp and one to Lydian which I have no idea if he got. I didn't want to air dirty linen in public so to speak but here goes.

Astetisking of achievements yanks my chain something rotten and called lydian disingenious for it. I feel that things have gotten out of hand and there is no need for lydian to go. His views seem to be more welcome here than most.

Sb has posted with great sense here and should be commended. My attitude on certain types of posts won't change and so it is pointless me being around having to mind my p's and q's so will take sb's advice and leave.

Mend bridges with lydian and carry on enjoying the tennis.

Craig

temporary21 wrote:What I actually said in essence was
"Your view is biased, but because that same kind of view doesnt get through for other people, we cant really let it through here either"

But the first 4 words are the critical part.  Nobody will ever take that - presumably they did not think their view was biased or else why would have they posted it.  So moment you say (or imply) it you get yourself into an argument that I think you do not need to get yourself into.  And, they will also rightly feel that "who are you to decide whether or not my post was biased".

The moment you do that you become part of the debate that you should be moderating.  Moderating should - if possible - not require you expressing (or indeed having) any opinions on whether or not Lydian's post was or was not fair or biased.

*Shrug*
So we lose yet another 5 year veteran poster either way. Great...

Can you two REALLY not try to be diplomatic and try to meet halfway here?

I didnt actually think anything of Lydans views tbh, i just know they kick up a storm when used in the GOAT debate.

As you can clearly tell, im trying to keep a long time poster, with no additional support at all at the moment.

CaledonianCraig wrote:My attitude on certain types of posts won't change and so it is pointless me being around having to mind my p's and q's so will take sb's advice and leave.

Oh dear do not go please.  You are one of the two or three staunchest Andy fans here.

I did not mean for you to go.  I like forums to be free-wheeling so I get sensitive when there is talk of banning opinions etc, hence I ended up defending Lydian here.  But I would not want losing you be the price we have to pay either.

If the threshold for what is unacceptable is set as low as it currently is, we'll lose more posters who just give up coming here than we'll preserve by having such strict parameters.

I still maintain that if anyone really is upset by an opinion about tennis, then they need to put their big boy pants on.

HM Murdock wrote:if anyone really is upset by an opinion about tennis, then they need to put their big boy pants on.

Says the man who kept their head stuck in the sand for a fortnight.

But yes, +1

Its always been that low for other players. This is hardly a unique situation in the slightest

Well, I do not think I have time to wait for Kohli-Thiem all day.  Good luck to Thiem (though I like Kohli too).

Now I am starting to agree with those who think Thiem may be at a risk of overplaying - never expected him to make the final here.  He should take it easy in Halle and not try too hard.

summerblues wrote:

HM Murdock wrote:if anyone really is upset by an opinion about tennis, then they need to put their big boy pants on.

Says the man who kept their head stuck in the sand for a fortnight.

But yes, +1

Sadly, I have a track record of soiling my big boy pants during Roland Garros.

It's these babies all the way for me during that fortnight:

CC I was about to leave, and another poster talked me out of it. Don't go.. we are not all against Andy or you either.. hang in there, at least for the time being ..like me

For the record I wasn't against CC either, I'm not Murrays biggest fan but hey there should be space for all posters of different views and likes/dislikes as long as it isn't personal.

I'll ask Tenez to come back then

In principle, there should be space for all posters of different views and likes/dislikes. However we have seen in the past that when one viewpoint is repeated too often that it can somewhat overwhelm the forum, to its overall detriment. This can be noticed more often between tournaments, when old arguments/matches can be re-hashed a bit too often. At which point a mod/admin might reasonably request that sleeping dogs are let lie.

Julius! Where the h*ll have you been? Thank god youre back!

Djokovic became the overlord of tennis in your abscence btw...

Holiday and family stuff temp - in a good way though.

Ah thats good news. I feared something worse when you went for a few weeks. Is LF ok?

JuliusHMarx wrote:I'll ask Tenez to come back then

Sure, whatever...but he crossed the line and you know that. You'll of course remember he and NITB got highly personal to a number of people on here including the savaging of LF (who I defended), and then tried to bring the forum down by going round PM'ing everyone to move to his own forum.

JHM, you and I have known each other a long time. There have been quite a lot of people leaving the forum recently...and quite a number of others disgruntled. That's all I'm saying on it.

You're all genuinely mental.

It's just words on a screen.

I would imagine Andy Murray himself wouldn't have been that offended! Of course it was lucky, luck plays a part in pretty much every sporting event ever.

JuliusHMarx wrote:I'll ask Tenez to come back then

In principle, there should be space for all posters of different views and likes/dislikes. However we have seen in the past that when one viewpoint is repeated too often that it can somewhat overwhelm the forum, to its overall detriment. This can be noticed more often between tournaments, when old arguments/matches can be re-hashed a bit too often. At which point a mod/admin might reasonably request that sleeping dogs are let lie.

I think the fact the 4 same players are spoken about more often then not I think reflects on the posters and their interests. We are limited it seems.

When there has been scope for debate outside of these 4 into more detailed debates eg when there was a sub topic in a thread about techniques, that got heated almost immediately.

This forum, to its credit I might add has tried to cater for everyone. And I mean everyone! Try to be different from other forums. Where on other forums the majority outweigh the minority, here unusually the minority have outweighed the majority.

For me, debate is a sharing and coming together of views. The problem lie that when a poster gets a little competitive dad and uses phrases like "you're wrong" or "I am right" causes a winner/loser mentality and that is when it gets hot in the kitchen. Look at the EU referendum thread!! It's chaos!

I would very much like to see new debates, however posters tastes are geared towards 4 players, who I think in all honesty have diversed and polarised opinions in tennis.

Actually I think maybe you should elaborate on that... weve got equal numbers of people pulling from either side. So pray tell what you think could be done to satisfy everyone eh?

You think you have it all figured out, then have the guts to put yourself on the line and be one of us...

Just catching up on this thread. I hope no one leaves as the forum can't really afford to lose too many more members. Both Lydian and CC are good posters who add a lot to the forum and it feels that this really should be an issue that can be resolved peacefully.

My overall view tends to agree with SB. People have to be free to express negative opinions as that kind of makes the forum go round. We can't be totally sanitised otherwise there is nothing interesting to read. We all have to understand that not everyone will like our favourite players. Obvious wumming (like that Jermaine guy) can be addressed but I don't see any of the regulars as falling into that category.

Ok... proof of concept
I used to really like Federer, RIGHT up until that pre made shirt in Wimby 2009.
Given the circumstances of that final, that was one of the most arrogant, things id seen in a long time, something Sampras would NEVER have done.

Since that, ive never been able to fully support the bloke, no matter how nice he is to watch, just sours it for me.

When Delpo won the 09 Us open, I was SOO chuffed to bits, ONLY because it knocked Rogers, at that point, enormous ego down to size. Ive since cooled my rage for the man as ive become a full fledged adult, but I still cant get up for him.

That is a VERY negative opinion of the great man. Ive never fully expressed it before, because I was sure it would rock the boat and upset people, specifically people who were often getting personal

So I decided to just be polite and leave. I assure you, certain posters here will go ballistic for me saying that, far more than what cc expressed.

lydian wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:I'll ask Tenez to come back then

Sure, whatever...but he crossed the line and you know that. You'll of course remember he and NITB got highly personal to a number of people on here including the savaging of LF (who I defended), and then tried to bring the forum down by going round PM'ing everyone to move to his own forum.

JHM, you and I have known each other a long time. There have been quite a lot of people leaving the forum recently...and quite a number of others disgruntled. That's all I'm saying on it.

True re: Tenez, but there were also a lot of complaints about the way he repeated his views on Nadal over and over, and didn't give Nadal credit for his achievements, and this also led to a lot of disgruntled posters and people leaving (before any of the rest took place) - understandably, to a degree.

Hence the delicate balance between a respectful forum and a sanitised one. It's a balance that is almost impossible to achieve, but no-one should (imho) feel compelled to leave when it occasionally gets out of kilter.

Temp, I think the comments you made about Lydian perhaps using leverage or having a personal issue or something were not ideal. You shouldn't really say things like that. It's best to judge posters' comments on their merits without attacking hypothetical reasons behind it which may or may not be true.

I think you have to have a consistent set of rules and apply them fairly. If a poster is complaining about something I'd suggest to deal with it on its merits irrespective of a suggestion that the person might be leaving.

This is a major discussion now. I really feel it's gone quite crazy discussion when we consider that no-one has said anything REALLY bad, just all getting blown out of proportion.

temporary21 wrote:I assure you, certain posters here will go ballistic for me saying that

Maybe not now because of the context, but perhaps if you tried it in some tense moment - like if say Fed plays Nole in W SF, Fed serves for the match in the fifth, fails to serve it out and ultimately loses the match.  Then you come with something like that and let's see how that works

I know it could get ugly, but I personally would like you to be able to make comments like that.  Those comments are technically very innocent.  They do not criticize anybody - no posters obviously but really not even Federer.  But they would breathe life into what we know about how you perceive the match.

Here you are, with PhD (or finishing PhD?) in a rather dry and technical discipline (statistics I think it was, though I am never sure if it is probability or statistics that you are doing), and yet you are able to get all so emotional hoping that some Swiss player will lose a match.  I find it endearing.

For the sake of disclosure I want to say I think these tennis players should get a proper job.  Getting millions and millions of pounds for a game of tennis I mean what is all that about?  They should do something productive for society, like working down a coal mine or teaching in an inner city school. They can still play tennis but it should be done in their spare time.

The sort of comment Temp uses as an example above should obviously be allowable, unless it's being repeated ad infinitum. If people can't handle someone expressing that sort of view then an Internet forum about tennis probably isn't the right place for them.

The jacket was hardly Feds fault, it was his sponsors that designed it without him knowing much. He even had to have it pointed out to him that there was a 15 on it somewhere... I was more disappointed by his total lack of empathy for Roddick and in clumsily comparing Roddick's loss to his own the previous year. Either way you should be able to say and express what you want. It's ridiculous people complaining and taking things personally and all these secret people leaving or not joining because of posters expressing from what I can see nothing but moderate opinions. It should be fine to express negativity.

I don't care for Murray anymore. I was glad when he won US open and Wimbledon but I don't want to see him win anything else now. His game is fake/forced to me. I've already expressed my sentiments towards what I think of Nadal's game and a non-calendar slam is a great reward to Novak for saving tennis from him imo. For good measure if you think the tennis now is the highest level played then, yes, Fed's numbers are higher than they would have been had he had this to compete with. I think Fed has been remarkably humble seeing as he has been the one playing within the rules the whole time and given his game style. Either that or didn't have the balls to complain.